Obama punishes small country opposed to dictatorial ex-president

[CastleBravo]

Obama punishes small country because its courts opposed dictatorial ex-president's return to power.

The Obama Administration has decided to block travel by the people of Honduras to the United States to punish their country for its Supreme Court's refusal to back the return to power of Honduras’s ex-president and would-be dictator, Manuel Zelaya, who is backed by left-wing Latin American dictators like Castro and Chavez.

Obama’s decision came in response to a recent ruling by the Honduras Supreme Court, ruling that the removal of the country’s ex-president and would-be dictator was a perfectly lawful “constitutional succession,”

http://www.examiner.com/x-7812-DC-SCOTUS-Examiner~y2009m8d27-Obama-punishes-small-country-because-its-courts-opposed-dictatorial-expresidents-return-to-power

[Platapus]

I wonder if this also stops Americans from traveling to Honduras?

Some great scuba diving in Honduras. :yeah:

[Stealth Hunter]

Lol. "Examiner.com".:haha:

Some great scuba diving in Honduras.

What about Jamaica?

[Platapus]

Never dived in Jamaica. Would not mind checking that out.

Of course there are tons of great dive locations I have not been to..... yet. :D

[Skybird]

I like that move by Honduras - if for no other reason than that Chavez runs around with foam on his mouth. By Chavez' order, the Venezuelean (?) secret service had spend incredible efforts and huge ammounts of money is undermining Honduras and supporting the left opposition - which nevertheless constantly lost sympathies in the population until only every third citizen supported Zelaya anymore. To simply kick Chavez' Mini-Me out when he tried to manipulate the constitution to his and the left's favour, simply was clever, correct and courageous. It also shows that their supreme court and the army still remember the lessons from their past of dictatorships, a lesson that says: do not allow presidents to stay that long in power that they can silently ursupate more power again than is good for the country.

My full support for kicking Zampano Zelaya - as long as the current interim president and the military keep their promise of free elections within the announced time table.

Obama would be well-advised to limit his attempts in demonstrating political correctness here.

[CastleBravo]

When a country's legislative and judicial branch, along with the vast majority of the people want Mr. Manuel Zelaya to leave office. I'd say the US should support that decision.

[Tribesman]

When a country's legislative and judicial branch, along with the vast majority of the people want Mr. Manuel Zelaya to leave office. I'd say the US should support that decision.
When some politicians judges and generals decide to throw the nations laws and constitution out the window and stage a coup against the elected government then the US should condemn that move just like it has done, as has every other country .
As for the "vast majority" of the people, thats bollox, the polls after the coup showed more people opposimng the move than supporting it, the replacement "government" has both a higher disapproval and lower approval rating than the previous one.

Quite a funny headline though isn't it...
dictatorial ex-president
.....as I would have thought the dictatorial regime was the one that has used the military to overthrow the elected government, closed down the media , introduced detention without trial, abolished the need for search warrants and arrest warrants, there have even been many reports of the new "government" murdering people.




So I have to ask you Bravo, when every government says your take on this is wrong, all the international bodies are lining up to say you are wrong, most of the locals say you are wrong.....why do you think you are somehow right?


But you really have to laugh at this line.....
a recent ruling by the Honduras Supreme Court
thats the supreme court now made up of judges that did the coup isn't it.
Its funny that they think Obamas descision came along because of that , I thought it would have come along with the decision of 192 countries.
Though maybe Obama was just pissed at the new Supreme Courts boss calling him a little know nothing negro plantation worker.

[Stealth Hunter]

I'd say the US should support that decision.

And this is one of our biggest problems. We can't mind our own frickin' business. That and we feel the need to police the world when we can't even solve our own problems here at home first.:shifty:

[Skybird]

German:
http://www.faz.net/s/RubDDBDABB9457A437BAA85A49C26FB23A0/Doc~E370569581F474DE8BF6C92DC498955CE~ATpl~Ecommon ~Scontent~Afor~Eprint.html

[Onkel Neal]

To recap, the Honduran military in June executed a Supreme Court arrest warrant against Mr. Zelaya for trying to hold a referendum on whether he should be able to run for a second term. Article 239 of the Honduran constitution states that any president who tries for a second term automatically loses the privilege of his office. By insisting that Mr. Zelaya be returned to power, the U.S. is trying to force Honduras to violate its own constitution.

:nope:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204731804574382872711784150.html

[SteamWake]

:nope:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32623489/ns/business-the_new_york_times/

Wrong link Neal?

[Skybird]

Congress told him not to try that referendum, and that he was risking severe civil unrest as well as resistance from the institutions.

The Supreme court told him that he should not try it, and that he was accepting civil unrest for his own interests.

The military surely also let him know.

The catholic church was and is against him, both his left policies and his willingess to bring unrest over Honduras for the sake of his own powerinterests.

The head of Honduras'S Central bank, Ramón Villeda Bermúdez, has complained massively about the Wetsern and especially the Spanish policy of legitmising very one-sidedly both Venezuelas and Cuba's attempts to bring Central America under leftist control, attacking especially the spanish for their attempts to enforce their biased tolerance for left policies in the region onto other western nations as well.

Many intellectuals in Honduras have spoken out against what they call a misled and biased tolerance of wetsern nations for left regimes and policies in the region, and attacked the distorted perception of the West of the legal basis and the way Zelaya's ousting came to happen.

From Zelaya's election to the day before he was ousted, support for him had fallen from once 60+ % of the population to roughly just one third of the population. resistance to the events folowing his arrest still is said to find noi majopirty amongst the population, with his followers formiung a faction of just around 40% of the population. there is no protest majority in honduras. There is a minority yelling loudas if it were twice as big in size - that is what it is. and Wetsenr media fall for it, like they fell for the lies of Saakashvili in Georgia. Zelaya indeed reminds me of Saakashvili, just that he has so far not order the masskilling of civilians, and ordered no war crimes, like Saakashvili did. First dismissing advice, then asking for trouble he broke lose himself - and then pathetically waving his arms and calling "Me victim! Me victim!" Zelaya really is one of a kind.

The catholic church has begged him to stay away from Honduras and not try to return, for it would invite even more unrest and potential violence. Of course, as usual, he did not listen, and raised some pathetic publicity stunts. Armseliger Trottel. That big hat nevertheless did not shield him from too much sunlight, maybe.

Congress and Supreme Court acted on behalf of valid Hondurean laws and the constitution. The catholic church, which is a respected moral authority in Honduras even beyond the circle of it's catholic community amongst the population, confirms that,a nd also calls the West intentionally misperceiving the actions taken. The military did not stage a coup by itself, but followed calls by the supreme court. To call the events a coup is simply absurd and total rubbish. It is lightyears apart from the coups central America has seen twenty years ago.

Bolivias'S and Venezuela'S secret services are heavily engaged in destabalising the country and to push it into line with leftist regimes in the region.


There should be pills against such stupidity.

What drives Obama to fall for this Chavezian stunt, is beyond me.

If the interim government fails to deliver on it's promise to hold election within the promised timeframe - then you can start talking of a "coup". Not earlier. that'S why Venezuela, Bolvia and Cuba are working so hard to get a situation where elections cannot be held over public unrest too severe. these cojht ries are not interested in an independent Honduras. They want it to be in the lefts' line, or they want it falling. That simple.

Whatever this story is, before anything else it is the story of a failed coup of Bolivia, Venezuela and the centralamerican left to overthrow Honduras and make it a regime in line with the left project to bring all central America under it's control.

And even while we talk here, Bolivian and Venezuelean secret agents are active in Honduras and try to fuel the fire and destabilize the country even more. Nice company they make. Only left regimes like Cuba can love to have them as neighbours.

and stupid Westerners.

[Onkel Neal]

Wrong link Neal?

thanks, fixed
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204731804574382872711784150.html

[Skybird]

thanks, fixed
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204731804574382872711784150.html

Strange experience for me to see me and a right-winged source agreeing that much on an issue! :) A bit too much of unneeded rethoric in it, but nevertheless by content it is true.

Just complementing your earlier quote from the article:

It is also asking Hondurans to risk the fate of Venezuela. They know how Venezuela's Hugo Chávez went from being democratically elected the first time, in 1998, to making himself dictator for life. He did it by destroying his country's institutional checks and balances. When Mr. Zelaya moved to do the same in Honduras, the nation cut him off at the pass.

[CastleBravo]

Strange experience for me to see me and a right-winged source agreeing that much on an issue! :)

Perhaps the reason is you are more of a pragmatist, than a leftist ideolog. Your posts on Islam show a distinct lack of left leaning ideas. If I may go a step or two further, I'd catagorize you as a pragmatic-nationalist.

It is not unsuprising that you often make comments which on the surface appear left leaning since the german press is for the most part a bastion of left leaning articles, at least as compared to nations outside the EU. This may be the natural reaction to the National Socialism which gripped Germany in the middle of the 20th Century. What is often lost on most folks is the word 'socialism' in the party's name.

To recap, I look at you and your writings as a product of your pragmatic-nationalist outlook.

I could be wrong, but that is how I see it. I mean no offence, and hope none is taken.
Cheers :)

[Skybird]

Pragmatic, okay, nationalist: no. I see certain qualities and characteristics of our western culture as superior in principle in humane quality to certain other still existing "cultures" or ideologies, although I see our time fading and our culture degenerating and falling apart. But it was both build upon and formed by images and ideas that in my conviction make these ideas the climax of human civilisational developement, even if we sell them off now. But by the definition of the term "nationalist", that way of thinking does not make me a nationalist, I think. In some aspects of my thinking, I am deeply uncivilised (by conviction), and a cultural outlaw. For example when it comes to "war". I hate simplifying reality in catchphrases and slogans, and I see the world as a web of interdynamic complexity so high that we cannot see the order in it and thus easily classify events as being chaotic. But often they can be explained - one only needs to widen one's view sufficiently. With many popular political slogans, like "equality of man" and "social justice", I am at war with. Many words are being made these days - but without meaning anything anymore. and worse it is when terms are being used in violation of their original meaning, only to trigger irrational emotions and by that manipulate the crowds.

I see myself as a realist, a bit stoic at times, a bit stubborn at others, eclectic in your meaning of "pragmatic" and open to needed or valuable chnages, but being conservative too: not so much in values but in keeping what I see as proven and valuable from the past. I pragmatically use terms like "politically left" and "right" in communication to refer to popular categories of political orientation, and make communication easier by simplifying that way - but I have no use for them to define my own views. And I do not care what stamp people use to describe my ideas. My ideas are one thing - people's stamp is a very different.

For lefties, I am usually too right, and for rightwingers, I am usually too left. If that makes sense! Maybe it does - if you had enough drinks at the end of the day. :)

[Tribesman]

Congress and Supreme Court acted on behalf of valid Hondurean laws and the constitution.
Really ?
So what Honduran laws allow for the military overthrow and exile of elected representatives ?
Where does the constitution allow for such moves?
Oh they don't do they, so the legal and constitutional arguement is bollox .
Maybe thats why 192 countries unanimously condemned the illegal coup.

To call the events a coup is simply absurd and total rubbish.
A coup is a coup.
The military did not stage a coup by itself, but followed calls by the supreme court.
Hey you called it a coup.
But anyway the supreme court cannot make those calls and the military is barred from taking those actions , its against the constitution and against the law.
It is lightyears apart from the coups central America has seen twenty years ago.
The genocide in Rwanda was light years apart from the industrialised genocide in the third reich ...it was still a genocide though just like this coup in Honduras is still a coup.

They know how Venezuela's Hugo Chávez went from being democratically elected the first time, in 1998, to making himself dictator for life. He did it by destroying his country's institutional checks and balances.
Thats a strange quote from the article , very strange indeed as Chavez hasn't been made dictator for life, he hasn't even secured the right to run for election again because he didn't get the votes of the people in the referendum . I suppose voting and the constitution articles about changing the constitution must have been some of those checks and balances he destroyed .
Where was all the outrage when Uribe abolished term limits ?
Come to think of it didn't this new bloke who has taken over in the coup support a previous Presidents attempt to abolish term limits in Honduras.

All in all its a rather sloppy article , I didn't expect the WSJ to go downhill so fast after the buyout.
As for the US government imposing Visa restrictions , thats pretty standard for a country to do when another country gets its government overthrown isn't it , not really news at all .

[August]

Really ?
So what Honduran laws allow for the military overthrow and exile of elected representatives ?
Where does the constitution allow for such moves?

Article 239, didn't you read?

[Tribesman]

Article 239, didn't you read?
:har::har::har::har::har:
Yes I did , would you like to quote the actual constitution ?
Would you then like to quote all the other articles which show the removal was unconstitutional , perhaps then you can read the actual court ruling and see why it is very dodgy , then you camn read the warrant and see why it was not only illegal but was illegaly enacted and even then not even followed , then perhaps for good measure you can view the actions of the remaining "congress" and see how just about every action they have taken is both illegal and unconstitutional.

Or you could of course just go by a very sloppy piece of journalism presented as an editorial and form your views from that......oh thats what you did didn't you.

[Leandros]

And this is one of our biggest problems. We can't mind our own frickin' business. That and we feel the need to police the world when we can't even solve our own problems here at home first.:shifty:
And Honduras hasn't even got WMD. Or have they.....?

[August]

Yes I did , would you like to...

...Would you then...

...you can view the actions of the remaining "congress" and see how just about every action they have taken is both illegal and unconstitutional....

Now why should I? The sites owner has posted a reference to the appropriate article in their constitution. You're the one who is making the claim that this is illegal so it should be up to you to prove it.

Personally I'd go with the word of the Honduran Supreme Court over some anonymous Irish forum troll but that's just me.

[Tribesman]

Personally I'd go with the word of the Honduran Supreme Court over some anonymous Irish forum troll but that's just me.

Which is why this topic is so funny.
We have a pile of people in this topic who regularly demonstrate problems with understanding their own nations constitution somehow claiming to know about another nations constitution.
To bring even more hilarity to the topic you have people who complain about judgements from their own supreme court lining up to back a dodgy ruling from a supreme court that their own government describes as one of the most corrupt in the whole of latin America.

BTW that last bit is a description from your government under Bush just to be on the safe side as some people seem to think they can simply reject such things if it was the current administration saying it

[August]

Which is why this topic is so funny.
We have a pile of people in this topic who regularly demonstrate problems with understanding their own nations constitution somehow claiming to know about another nations constitution.
To bring even more hilarity to the topic you have people who complain about judgements from their own supreme court lining up to back a dodgy ruling from a supreme court that their own government describes as one of the most corrupt in the whole of latin America.

BTW that last bit is a description from your government under Bush just to be on the safe side as some people seem to think they can simply reject such things if it was the current administration saying it

So in other words you got nothing and are just trying to stir the pot. I understand now.

[Tribesman]

So in other words you got nothing and are just trying to stir the pot.
I have all I need , its called the constitution .
You know the document you don't know , the document that those journalists don't appear to know either.:up:

Though as a backup you could also ask the head lawyer for the military in Honduras, he says the actions he advised in favour of were indeed actually illegal and unconstitutional...but he felt at the time that they were neccesary.

[August]

You know the document you don't know

You mean the document that you don't know because so far you haven't demonstrated the least bit of knowledge about it.

Honduran Supreme Court 1
Tribesman 0

[Torvald Von Mansee]

When a country's legislative and judicial branch, along with the vast majority of the people want Mr. Manuel Zelaya to leave office. I'd say the US should support that decision.

I like how George Bush won the 2000 election, by a vote of 5 to 50,999,897.I also like how he said some months later "I come from a democracy, and in a democracy, whatever gets the most votes wins!!" (I paraphrase)

[August]

...by a vote of 5 to 50,999,897.

Democrat math? You must work for ACORN.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Democrat math? You must work for ACORN.

I suppose I could explain, but you don't appear to have the requisite brainpower to understand.

[August]

I suppose I could explain, but you don't appear to have the requisite brainpower to understand.

I suppose you could explain but given your eagerness to insult people I doubt it'd be any less idiotic than your last post so don't bother.

[Tribesman]

You mean the document that you don't know because so far you haven't demonstrated the least bit of knowledge about it.

Honduran Supreme Court 1
Tribesman 0
So you mean articulo 239 which was amended in 1998 and 2002 and re ratified in 2003...which you havn't read so obviously can't undertand, just like you havn't read anything else in the constitution, which is why your knowledge appears to be based on nothing but a few badly written newspaper articles.
If you want to try and argue a point August it might help if you had even the slightest grasp of the basics on the subject

[August]

So you mean articulo 239 which was amended in 1998 and 2002 and re ratified in 2003...which you havn't read so obviously can't undertand, just like you havn't read anything else in the constitution, which is why your knowledge appears to be based on nothing but a few badly written newspaper articles.
If you want to try and argue a point August it might help if you had even the slightest grasp of the basics on the subject

Heh, you still haven't produced anything besides personal attacks which are a poor substitute for the several parts of the Honduran Constitution that you claim are being violated.

So again Mr. Irish Honduran Constitution Expert whenever you are done stalling for time we're patiently waiting...

[Tribesman]

Heh, you still haven't produced anything besides personal attacks which are a poor substitute for the several parts of the Honduran Constitution that you claim are being violated.

Come back when you have actually read the document you are talking about August .

[August]

Come back when you have actually read the document you are talking about August .

All you have done so far here Tribesman is make several completely unsupported claims and spell the word "article" in Spanish, yet that is somehow supposed to prove to us that you know what your talking about on this issue better then the Honduras' own Supreme Court? I don't think so.

So when you get your research done and yor arguments prepared feel free to come back. I'm sure we'll all be waiting with baited breath. :roll:

[CastleBravo]

Did I start this thread? Oh yes.... I must be a right wing fanatic!

The people are in charge .......... NOT the government. I suspect we will see this in many countries soon.

[Tribesman]

So when you get your research done and yor arguments prepared feel free to come back.
:rotfl:
How do you expect to be able to argue August when you havn't the faintest idea what the constitution says or what the courts ruling was ?
Do you even know what the proposed poll was that started the whole charade?
Obviously not or you would realise why article 239 could not have been used...then again as you don't even know what that article says you really are just mouthing off blindly.

[August]

:rotfl:
How do you expect to be able to argue August when you havn't the faintest idea what the constitution says or what the courts ruling was ?
Do you even know what the proposed poll was that started the whole charade?
Obviously not or you would realise why article 239 could not have been used...then again as you don't even know what that article says you really are just mouthing off blindly.

Yeah whatever. :up:

[Tribesman]

He is back in Honduras.
So now the questions are will the people who siezed power in an illegal coup risk attacking Brazil and how far will they go on the police/military clampdown on their own citizens?

[Skybird]

The question is will 30-40% of the population supporting him manage to overthrow 60-70% of the population opposing him, so that violation of the constitution, ignorring the state's leading bodies, and ignorring the request of the church to stop starting trouble finally will see illegitimate and undeserved reward. The question is if this hostile act of Brazil that by supporting this stunt now has joined the intelligence operations of Bolivia and Venezuela to destabilise Honduras and establish another Chavez there will even be rewareded and make honduras fall to the Chavezian union.

They should abandon diplomatic relations with Brazil (and Bolivia and Venezuela anyway) for these hostile nations deeds, especially the infiltration and destabilisation done by Venezuela and Bolivia in the past 2 years or even longer border to declarations of war and are a direct attack on the national integrity and souvereignity of Honduras. They should recall all their ambassador and staff from Brazil (and Venezuela), give the Brazilian staff in Honduras 24 hours to leave the country, and when they move to the airport sack Chavez' clown and put him on trial for high treason and abuse of the office and violating the constitution.

[Tribesman]

so that violation of the constitution,
The coup plotters who formed their own government which no country recognises as legitimate are in violation of the constitution.

They should abandon diplomatic relations with Brazil (and Bolivia and Venezuela anyway)
Ah diplomatic relations, that goes back to the opening post where 4 people from Honduras had their existing diplomatic visas taken away because they are now part of a government that is not recognised as a legitimate government which puts them in a diplomatic relations limbo. So threatening to sever relations with governments that don't recognise you isn't really an effective form of leverage.
They should recall all their ambassador and staff from Brazil (and Venezuela), give the Brazilian staff in Honduras 24 hours to leave the country,
Sorry Skybird , how many countries have already pulled out their staff from the country with which they no longer give diplomatic recognition to and also removed diplomatic recognition for that countries staff in their nation?
Threatening to take your football home when its already been punctured and thrown in the bin by the other players is a pretty pointless gesture.

[August]

The coup plotters who formed their own government which no country recognises as legitimate are in violation of the constitution.

Or so you keep claiming anyways...

[Tribesman]

Or so you keep claiming anyways...
Since you havn't read the constitution you can't make any valid comment on the constitutionality of the actions can you August.

[August]

Since you havn't read the constitution you can't make any valid comment on the constitutionality of the actions can you August.

Actually that was my argument about you Tribesman. Unlike you I'm not claiming special knowledge of the Honduran Constitution. Special knowledge you have so far failed to demonstrate.

[Skybird]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8279243.stm



A top US diplomat says deposed Honduran President Manuel Zelaya was "irresponsible and foolish" to return before a settlement had been reached. Lewis Amselem, US ambassador to the Organization of American States (OAS), said Washington had asked Mr Zelaya not to return because of potential unrest.

(...)

"The return of Zelaya [without] an agreement is irresponsible and foolish. He should cease and desist from making wild allegations and from acting as though he were starring in an old movie," said Mr Amselem at an emergency meeting of the OAS.

"Having chosen, with outside help, to return on his own terms, President Zelaya and those who have facilitated his return, bear particular responsibility for the actions of his supporters," he added.

(...)

The interim government warned Brazil on Sunday that its diplomatic credentials would be revoked in 10 days if it did not grant Mr Zelaya asylum or hand him over.


More than half of the time that had to be bridged until elections in November, is over. If they will have free elections with all four current major candidates then, and a new government is formed, anybody not recognising it then will have to explain why he accepted a leftist coup attempt, but does not recognize a freely elected government chosen by the people of Honduras in regular elections that had been held as scheduled by the constitution's rule .

This hat. Oh boy, I really will miss this hat. Horse opera star he seem to think he is. :D Give the man a golden plastic star and a toy Winchester.

And a solid spanking for the deaths he already has caused in the name of his great ego.

[Tribesman]

If they will have free elections with all four current major candidates then
Its quite hard to hold free elections when they are arresting the opposition, closing down the media and imposing curfews on the electorate, not to mention abolishing the need for arrest warrants and introducing indefinate detention without trial.....so much for upholding the constitution eh.
anybody not recognising it then will have to explain
BTW how does an unrecognised illegal "government" hold legally recognised elections?

The interim government warned Brazil on Sunday that its diplomatic credentials would be revoked in 10 days if it did not grant Mr Zelaya asylum or hand him over.
How do you revoke the diplomatic credentials of people if they don't recognise you diplomaticly in the first place?

[martes86]

Since you havn't read the constitution you can't make any valid comment on the constitutionality of the actions can you August.

And you don't seem to have read it either. That, or you're just too stubborn to just post the text here so everyone can read it so as to keep saying how everyone has not read the constitution and thus should just shut up, which is IMO a childish attitude. Anyways:


ARTICLE 239.- A citizen that has had the titularity of the Executive Power cannot be chosen as President or Delegate.

He who breaks this disposition or proposes its reformation, as well as those who support it direcly or indirectly, will inmediately cease in the fullfilling of their respective postings, and will be disabled for ten years for the execution of any public function.

That's a direct quote I've translated from article 239 of the Honduran constitution. It's possible that the ways of the "de facto" government to "disable" Zelaya have been a little exaggerated, and in fact, the article doesn't mention any specific actions to be taken other than the dismissal of the respective persons.

BUT, that doesn't mean I disagree with them, in fact, I think that Zelaya guy is just another Chavez waiting to happen, and the only reason our government (Spain) supports them is because of the money the think they'll get by being all friendly, given how much investment our country puts in South America, and how Chavez has been nationalizing some spanish corporation's branches there.

Free elections? I'm sure there will be, it's just that the pseudo-dictator won't be present, but anyone else will be. Having another one of Chavez's puppets in a S. America government is bad for everyone, but specially for the US (see Chavez disrespectfully speaking of the US all the time), and still, it amazes me how they're actually oppositing the "de facto" government.

Cheers

[Tribesman]

That's a direct quote I've translated from article 239 of the Honduran constitution.
So what?
It doesn't matter if the removal was fully in compliance with 378 articles of the constitution, unless it complies with all 379 articles it is unconstitutional.
Since the warrant, the arrest and removal were all enacted in violation of the constitution the whole procees is illegal.
Plus of course since the new "government" has violated another half dozen articles of the constitution since then its non existant constitutionality is furthewr destroyed.

I'm sure there will be, it's just that the pseudo-dictator won't be present, but anyone else will be.
Apart from thsoe who are imprisoned without trial ...or dead , but then again as the spokesman for security of the new "government" used to run death squads for the last dictatorship they have been pretty lucky so far. Actually its amazing how many people in the coup can be linked to dictatorships, death squads, terrorism and torture , not to mention the drugs trade.
Nice people just like Noriega, Pinochet and Galtieri
it amazes me how they're actually oppositing the "de facto" government.

It isn't amazing considering that most of the problems concerning the US standing in the region is due to their history of supporting coups like this one.

But anyway a simple question for you.
If the referendum on a non-binding resolution for possible future changes to the constitution had gone ahead how on earth would that have enabled Zelaya to extend his term in office? Given that the last change to the constitution took nearly 3 years to get drawn up and passed and Zelaya would have been out of office from the day of the vote anyway.

BTW I notice that on Monday your government arrested a former member of a latin American death squad who worked for a "government" that did a coup. Well done.

[martes86]

It doesn't matter if the removal was fully in compliance with 378 articles of the constitution, unless it complies with all 379 articles it is unconstitutional.

That's not a valid argument. It doesn't have to comply with all and every article, since most of them treat very different subjects totally unrelated to this problem. In fact, it might only have to comply with the few articles that reference civil rights, and the attributions given to the justice powers, which would be the really related stuff.


Since the warrant, the arrest and removal were all enacted in violation of the constitution the whole procees is illegal.
Plus of course since the new "government" has violated another half dozen articles of the constitution since then its non existant constitutionality is furthewr destroyed.

A tribunal authorised it, so I'm inclined to think that maybe it was legal to THEIR LAWS. Maybe illegal from the point of international justice, but if they're actually doing that to prevent another of those "Bolivarian" movements and the problems that'd bring, then I'd say they have the right to do so, specially if the had the massive support of the population (at least initially). If Zelaya really were the good guy, he wouldn't struggle to create civil unrest in the country so that he could be restored, he'd use more civilised means. But since he's a Chavez alumni, he has to be all popular, pretending to have the support of the people. Cheap populism, the same thing Chavez enacts in Venezuela.


Actually its amazing how many people in the coup can be linked to dictatorships, death squads, terrorism and torture , not to mention the drugs trade.
Nice people just like Noriega, Pinochet and Galtieri

And Zelaya can be linked to Chavez, who's been closing media sites because they critizised him (allegedly a danger to national security) and nationalizing what's not his. And to Castro, which I think is, with the chinese and north-korean rulers, the oldest running dictator. After all they all share the same ideology, and tend to do alliances between each other.

It isn't amazing considering that most of the problems concerning the US standing in the region is due to their history of supporting coups like this one.

You said it, history. I don't see the US supporting coups now, that's part of the past. But the past is usually a powerful ally for these pseudo-dictators, because just by talking about the "imperialists" and the "yankees", about how bad they're for the world, they have lots of people at their feet, usually the ones that actually benefit from what they do.


But anyway a simple question for you.
If the referendum on a non-binding resolution for possible future changes to the constitution had gone ahead how on earth would that have enabled Zelaya to extend his term in office? Given that the last change to the constitution took nearly 3 years to get drawn up and passed and Zelaya would have been out of office from the day of the vote anyway.

You really think he'd have stepped out? The only reason he'd be stepping out would be another stage like this where he's forcibly removed. But I doubt that happens again if he comes back, because he'd surely make some laws to avoid being thrown out no matter what, even if they're illegal.


BTW I notice that on Monday your government arrested a former member of a latin American death squad who worked for a "government" that did a coup. Well done.

Well, he was a proven killer, and he was in our country... I'd be ashamed if he wasn't arrested.

Cheers

[Tribesman]

That's not a valid argument. It doesn't have to comply with all and every article, since most of them treat very different subjects totally unrelated to this problem. In fact, it might only have to comply with the few articles that reference civil rights, and the attributions given to the justice powers, which would be the really related stuff.

Yes it is, it has to apply with every article that is relevant to the situation. It would be impossible to be in violation of an article that has nothing to do with the situation wouldn't it.
So the violations concern the issuing of the warrant, the enacting of the warrant, the legality of the arrest and the expulsion from the country (and two subsequent expulsions for good measure).

You said it, history. I don't see the US supporting coups now, that's part of the past.
Recent past, you only have top go back to events in Caracas 7 years ago where Colin Powell made a ***** of himself(again) or Haiti 5 years ago.
Plus of course I reffered to the US standing in the region, lots of those countries are still going through the legal process of bringing to justice those dictatorships and death squads who had US backing in their coups.