View Full Version : Mock trial in Kongo
Unknown to many here, probably, but its all over the news in Norway at the moment. Two Norwegians were arrested in Kongo a few months ago, and charged with murdering the driver they had employed. Nothing of this is spectacular, and they might even be guilty. What is spectacular, however, is the legal system in action.
In short: The prosecution demands 500 BILLION DOLLARS from Norway, since the two suspects at one time served in the Norwegian army, in the Kings Guard and later Afghanistan. In addition there is a claim of 41 million dollars, divided between the family of the victim, his union(!), vitnesses(!) and the owner of the car they used, and of course they are looking at death penalty either way.
That ALL Norwegian men (in theory) have to serve give or take a year in the army, doesnt seem to matter. Hell, I was in the Engineer Battalion. The suspects are in Kongo working for a private security firm called SIG, a firm the prosecution claims is operating with espionage on behalf of the Norwegian state. Furthermore, they claim that the attendence of Norwegian media and UD (Foreign department, directly translated) in Kongo proves Norway is behind the murder. Furthermore it is said that Kongo choose a civilian response to Norways actions!!! As opposed to what?!
The two suspects refuse to say anything further in the trial, as they believe it wont matter anyway. The prosecutions response was: "Saddam also refused to testify".
Norwegian government will not comment until a sentence is passed.
I rarely get really pissed off, but this has me boiling. Right wing bloggers demand deployment of Special Forces, and I am almost agreeing.
Raptor1
08-27-09, 02:21 PM
Which of the Congo countries are we talking about?
Biggles
08-27-09, 02:23 PM
Heard some of this (not that odd, seeing as I live across your border) but 500 000 000 000 USD!? That is what they want?
This is in Kongo-Kinshasa right? Did a big report about them a year ago. They've got some major problems with internal fighting and corruption. I wouldn't want to be prosecuted down there......
Tribesman
08-27-09, 02:58 PM
Furthermore it is said that Kongo choose a civilian response to Norways actions!!! As opposed to what?!
Perhaps the civilian response is to do with that they can be classed as mercenaries, so they could just be given a status hearing and be put up against the wall and shot.
Going off to the congo and playing silly buggers does pay extremely well, but there is a reason the pay is so high as thse two have found out.
Heard some of this (not that odd, seeing as I live across your border) but 500 000 000 000 USD!? That is what they want?
Yep, or 3038 000 000 000 Norwegian Kroners, thats 653 billion NOK more than the current value of the oil fund.
Yep, or 3038 000 000 000 Norwegian Kroners, thats 653 billion NOK more than the current value of the oil fund.
Maybe they're expecting to haggle for the ransom and are just starting high. Offer them 5 bucks and 2 free DVDs and see what they bid in return.
:rotfl:I didnt want to laugh at that, but I did.
Yes one expert in african politics commented that most likely the want to haggle on the price.
I however disagree that special forces should be used, atleast not until the case hase gone all the way to the supreme court of Congo. (They can appeal up to two times). Atleast let a civilian trial have it's go before anything doing anything drastic.
Ofcourse the embassy and state department should use all their powers to make sure that the prisoners have proper care, but otherwise this is not a case for the Norwegian gouverment to solve. The accused went there to work as mercenaries and knew the risk. Though this is no excuse for a mock trial, I have little pitty for them.
The state department should however make it clear that the state of Norway have nothing to do with this and will not pay "ransom" for its citizens. And that if no fair trial is given (use UN obervers or something to determine this) all monetary support from Norway to Congo is dispanded immediatly.
The state department rubbished the claim late yesterday.
Onkel Neal
08-28-09, 09:09 AM
Unknown to many here, probably, but its all over the news in Norway at the moment. Two Norwegians were arrested in Kongo a few months ago, and charged with murdering the driver they had employed. Nothing of this is spectacular, and they might even be guilty. What is spectacular, however, is the legal system in action.
In short: The prosecution demands 500 BILLION DOLLARS from Norway, since the two suspects at one time served in the Norwegian army, in the Kings Guard and later Afghanistan. In addition there is a claim of 41 million dollars, divided between the family of the victim, his union(!), vitnesses(!) and the owner of the car they used, and of course they are looking at death penalty either way.
That ALL Norwegian men (in theory) have to serve give or take a year in the army, doesnt seem to matter. Hell, I was in the Engineer Battalion. The suspects are in Kongo working for a private security firm called SIG, a firm the prosecution claims is operating with espionage on behalf of the Norwegian state. Furthermore, they claim that the attendence of Norwegian media and UD (Foreign department, directly translated) in Kongo proves Norway is behind the murder. Furthermore it is said that Kongo choose a civilian response to Norways actions!!! As opposed to what?!
The two suspects refuse to say anything further in the trial, as they believe it wont matter anyway. The prosecutions response was: "Saddam also refused to testify".
Norwegian government will not comment until a sentence is passed.
I rarely get really pissed off, but this has me boiling. Right wing bloggers demand deployment of Special Forces, and I am almost agreeing.
Haha, everyone is a right winger deep inside when someone messes with them :03:
Jimbuna
08-28-09, 12:18 PM
It always makes me wonder just how desparate or greedy people are for money when they go to these boiling points for work that pays well whilst fully understanding they could be putting their very lives at risk. :nope:
What value do they put on their wellbeing? :hmmm:
Biggles
08-28-09, 01:05 PM
What value do they put on their wellbeing? :hmmm:
I guess a more important question for the two men at the moment is, what value does Norway put on their wellbeing.....
Tribesman
08-28-09, 03:22 PM
I guess a more important question for the two men at the moment is, what value does Norway put on their wellbeing.....
With the published photos of these idiots that they took of themselves posing and laughing at the murder scene I don't think anyone should really care about their wellbeing.
Oh, I dont object to the possibility of them being guilty, but we are not cavemen anymore. A trial with less Monty Python aspects would be nice.
Biggles
08-28-09, 04:26 PM
Oh, I dont object to the possibility of them being guilty, but we are not cavemen anymore. A trial with less Monty Python aspects would be nice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPDBeoUGnYE
Sorry, couldn't resist:O:
But yeah, it's pretty sad when things like this happens. How long have this been going on btw?
OneToughHerring
08-28-09, 05:17 PM
Haha, everyone is a right winger deep inside when someone messes with them :03:
I think you might be on to something there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
I think you might be on to something there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
That has absolutely nothing to do with either right or left wing. :roll:
OneToughHerring
08-28-09, 08:33 PM
That has absolutely nothing to do with either right or left wing. :roll:
Well what I was trying to convey with bringing up the Stanford Prison experiment is that there is a lot of all kinds of things with pretty much all people, not just 'right-wingerism' as some here seem to think. And that what you refer to as a 'right-winger' someone else might refer to as a 'fascist'.
Well what I was trying to convey with bringing up the Stanford Prison experiment is that there is a lot of all kinds of things with pretty much all people, not just 'right-wingerism' as some here seem to think. And that what you refer to as a 'right-winger' someone else might refer to as a 'fascist'.
The Stanford Prison experiment had nothing to do with fascism either.
OneToughHerring
08-28-09, 09:34 PM
The Stanford Prison experiment had nothing to do with fascism either.
:rotfl:
Tribesman
08-29-09, 01:19 AM
How long have this been going on btw?
Since May.
Btw, I think you misunderstood me, Neal. :) I dont imply the bloggers are right wing for demanding deployment of special forces, its just that some of the blogs I happened to read were right wingers. (In Norwegian politics that is, in the US they would be called tree huggers)
Tribesman
09-08-09, 10:22 AM
And the verdict is guilty, the sentence is death. What a surprise.
With choice comes responsibitlty , if somene chooses to go playing silly buggers in a corrupt war torn ****hole then it is their own responsibility when they experience the joys of "justice" in a corrupt war torn ****hole.
HunterICX
09-08-09, 11:03 AM
http://www.norwaypost.no/content/view/22478/1/
HunterICX
Jimbuna
09-08-09, 11:18 AM
I can't say I'm suprised.....and certainly don't support the sentence :nope:
How would they be expected to pay the damages (presuming they had the means) if they were executed? :hmmm:
OneToughHerring
09-08-09, 11:19 AM
What exactly were these guys doing over there? And they did kill a guy? So...the're not exactly innocent, right?
Jimbuna
09-08-09, 11:21 AM
What exactly were these guys doing over there? And they did kill a guy? So...the're not exactly innocent, right?
Fair point......but would you have faith in the judicial system over there if it were you in the dock?
OneToughHerring
09-08-09, 11:25 AM
Fair point......but would you have faith in the judicial system over there if it were you in the dock?
Well the're in Congo? Congo has had a pretty long civil war that might still be going on so that country isn't fully stable or similar to a western country in terms of the judicial processes etc.
My guess is that this will probably go on and there will be brokering between the west and Kongo about these guys. I'll be surprised if they will be put to death.
Edit. There are actually two Congo's, the Republic of Congo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_the_Congo) and the Democratic Republic of Congo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo).
Jimbuna
09-08-09, 11:27 AM
Well the're in Kongo? Kongo has had a pretty long civil war that might still be going on so that country isn't fully stable or similar to a western country in terms of the judicial processes etc.
My guess is that this will probably go on and there will be brokering between the west and Kongo about these guys. I'll be surprised if they will be put to death.
Oh I fully hope/agree your right.....the end game will no doubt be a trade agreement, some kind of aid or a hush hush/go away payment/consideration.
OneToughHerring
09-08-09, 12:55 PM
Somewhat incriminating photographic evidence. (http://www.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2009/08/10/1249922936578_5.jpg)
Interesting how nobody has shown much sympathy toward the guy these two killed, or the victims family. I guess that wouldn't be 'right-wing' enough.
NeonSamurai
09-08-09, 01:19 PM
The Stanford Prison experiment had nothing to do with fascism either.
That is not exactly true. While directly it has little to do with fascism, it does help explain some of the dynamics behind it and the associated results (like mass murder, brutality, etc).
That is not exactly true. While directly it has little to do with fascism, it does help explain some of the dynamics behind it and the associated results (like mass murder, brutality, etc).
But by that reasoning then breathing explains a lot of the dynamics behind fascism as well since fascists breath regularly. The thing is though not all murderers are fascists and not all fascists are murderers so an experiment about brutality is more about simple human nature than anything else.
OneToughHerring
09-08-09, 02:52 PM
That is not exactly true. While directly it has little to do with fascism, it does help explain some of the dynamics behind it and the associated results (like mass murder, brutality, etc).
Are you trying to criticise fascism to a fascist? I doubt you'll get him to agree with you.
Are you trying to criticise fascism to a fascist? I doubt you'll get him to agree with you.
I see you are working hard on pissing people off once again. :nope:
I see, you are working hard on pissing people off once again. :nope:
He won't be happy until Neal tosses him in the brig.
OneToughHerring
09-08-09, 03:29 PM
Somewhat incriminating photographic evidence. (http://www.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2009/08/10/1249922936578_5.jpg)
Interesting how nobody has shown much sympathy toward the guy these two killed, or the victims family. I guess that wouldn't be 'right-wing' enough.
I'm interested to hear what stabiz has to say about this picture. Looks like pretty conclusive evidence to me, or is he still ready to send commandos to Congo like a good 'right-winger'?
I'm interested to hear what stabiz has to say about this picture. Looks like pretty conclusive evidence to me, or is he still ready to send commandos to Congo like a good 'right-winger'?
sooo...stabiz is a rightwinger ?
this begs to differ
http://politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-5.12&soc=-2.56
thats the picture Stabiz posted in the "where do you stand" thread
OneToughHerring
09-08-09, 04:03 PM
Morts,
read message # 1 in this thread.
wait....somehow him almost !! agreeing on 1 thing with some rightwingers, make him a rightwinger ?...oh my god
OneToughHerring
09-08-09, 04:37 PM
wait....somehow him almost !! agreeing on 1 thing with some rightwingers, make him a rightwinger ?...oh my god
As I wrote above, I wonder if you skipped over that message as well, I was wondering whether seeing the image of one of those Norwegians smiling and wiping away the blood of the guy they killed would make stabiz change his opinion about the matter. I don't think they are even denying killing him.
But you know, it was just some African guy, they aren't as valuable as Europeans, right?
Fincuan
09-08-09, 04:42 PM
wait....somehow him almost !! agreeing on 1 thing with some rightwingers, make him a rightwinger ?...oh my god
No
At least I understood OTH's comment like this: Right-wing bloggers, the 'good right-wingers' he referenced to, suggested sending in norvegian SF. Stabiz said he partly agreed with this back then then, and OTH wants to know what's his current take on it.
Besides that this seems like a pretty hairy situation. As one of my friends put it: How would we react if the local media reported that two guys from for example either Congo, who just happened to have served in the military too, came up here, hired a driver and then brutally killed him? Even after considering all the theatrics one has to admit that the pic they published certainly doesn't paint the guys in a very good light, and one would also think that the Norvegian government would have reacted to the case more strongly should they believe these guys are innocent. I'm having a really hard time trying to feel compassionate towards the two in question.
Well what I was trying to convey with bringing up the Stanford Prison experiment is that there is a lot of all kinds of things with pretty much all people, not just 'right-wingerism' as some here seem to think. And that what you refer to as a 'right-winger' someone else might refer to as a 'fascist'.
The only fascist here is you. You are so full of hatred against the Free World that it spills over in every post you make and leaves a dirty purulent, sickening deposit in your path. I'm sure you deem yourself a Finnish patriot. But unfortunately, you're just a simple minded nationalist, dishonoring your country by way of your petty hatred.
Your postings disgust me. Every time.
OneToughHerring
09-08-09, 04:58 PM
The only fascist here is you. ...
Dude, the feeling is mutual. :DL
NeonSamurai
09-08-09, 05:11 PM
But by that reasoning then breathing explains a lot of the dynamics behind fascism as well since fascists breath regularly. The thing is though not all murderers are fascists and not all fascists are murderers so an experiment about brutality is more about simple human nature than anything else.
Fascism as an institution has in the past made heavy use of fear, brutality, oppression, and the murder of its citizenry.
The experiment itself was not specifically focused on brutality, or fascism (the experiment focus was different, and got out of control). But it did give results relating to brutality (which is a part of fascism), and helps explain how perfectly normal people can become monsters under the right circumstances. It also offers some insight as to how the mass murder of people can occur (something which most fascist regimes have done at one point or another).
Can the experiment be applied to other things? Sure, it can be used to explain Abu Ghrabi, abuse in prisons by staff, and other events involving people with 'power' and 'authority' over those with none.
Anyhow getting OT here, if you want to discuss that experiment (and other related ones) or fascism in full feel free to start a new topic about it.
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