View Full Version : Taxes around the world
Respenus
08-25-09, 06:45 AM
http://www.kpmg.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Individual_Income_Tax_Rates-Survey_2009.pdf
If I hear ever again an American complain about taxes, I'm going to blow a fuse :D
Enjoy this pleasant reading material. It is quite informative.
Arclight
08-25-09, 06:50 AM
And guess who's topping the list? That's right, good old Holland. No surprises there. :shifty:
I swear, living in Holland is more like continuous ongoing extortion than anything else. :stare:
*well, at least when it comes to "Highest Rates of Personal Income Tax"
**nvm, Denmark and Sweden have it even worse. :damn:
Bahamas here I come! I didnt know we had lower taxed in Norway than Sweden and Denmark.
Respenus
08-25-09, 07:06 AM
Those are just highest rates of personal income tax. Now take the effective income tax and social security rates and I'd rather live in Holland any day of the week. Frankly, the new tax that Croatia has levied most probably puts it on the top of the list, but I'm sure everyone would rather live in the Netherlands than in Slovenia/Croatia.
I just hope our politicians look at this and decide that it's time to stop stealing money and give the people back what they paid for. We pay a lot, we also receive a lot, particularly social security, pensions and healthcare which is extremely good, which it should be as we pay the rates comparable with most western states.
Just remember gentlemen, lower taxes do not mean better service or social security. Most probably on the contrary.
Didja ever think that our constant complaining about taxes is the main reason we aren't being raped like you guys?
Respenus
08-25-09, 09:21 AM
I know your arguments, I've read them, even though I have not replied to them. You say rape, I say I sleep easy at night knowing my health bill, not matter the cost or the complexity of the procedure will be paid; that even though I may lose my job, I shall have something to feed myself and in the future my family; I know that my children won't have to pay to receive excellent education, as best as Slovenia can provide, or any other European state can (England and Wales being the odd ones in the bunch) and that I rest assured that I shall have at least something to put into my mouth in my elder days, even though it might not be luxurious if I don't take care of it myself.
Does it cost a lot? It does. Is it unnerving at time? You can bet it is. Has it made me a happier man? You can count on that.
I know your arguments, I've read them, even though I have not replied to them. You say rape, I say I sleep easy at night knowing my health bill, not matter the cost or the complexity of the procedure will be paid; that even though I may lose my job, I shall have something to feed myself and in the future my family; I know that my children won't have to pay to receive excellent education, as best as Slovenia can provide, or any other European state can (England and Wales being the odd ones in the bunch) and that I rest assured that I shall have at least something to put into my mouth in my elder days, even though it might not be luxurious if I don't take care of it myself.
Does it cost a lot? It does. Is it unnerving at time? You can bet it is. Has it made me a happier man? You can count on that.
Good i'm glad you're happy. Allow us to do things our own way and we'll be happy too.
Kapitan
08-25-09, 11:21 AM
august is right if it aint broke dont fix it simplez
However it is good to have a nationalised health service but it costs billions for us brits each year which means other things get put on hold where as the american system is you must have healthcare insurance to pay for your medical stuff the money that may fund the health care service could be put to other things.
august is right if it aint broke dont fix it simplez
However it is good to have a nationalised health service but it costs billions for us brits each year which means other things get put on hold where as the american system is you must have healthcare insurance to pay for your medical stuff the money that may fund the health care service could be put to other things.
Thanks Kapitan.
For the record i'm not philosophically opposed to nationalized health care, I just know that it's not going to be run efficiently, it will be riddled with abuse, it will end up costing us more than private health care, and it is a spectacularly bad time economically to be trying to implement it.
Biggles
08-25-09, 11:38 AM
I know your arguments, I've read them, even though I have not replied to them. You say rape, I say I sleep easy at night knowing my health bill, not matter the cost or the complexity of the procedure will be paid; that even though I may lose my job, I shall have something to feed myself and in the future my family; I know that my children won't have to pay to receive excellent education, as best as Slovenia can provide, or any other European state can (England and Wales being the odd ones in the bunch) and that I rest assured that I shall have at least something to put into my mouth in my elder days, even though it might not be luxurious if I don't take care of it myself.
Does it cost a lot? It does. Is it unnerving at time? You can bet it is. Has it made me a happier man? You can count on that.
This, this this this.....it all sums it up.
I don't really have a problem with america doing things differently. What I find disturbing is that some americans (certainly not all, but still, some,) call this communism. It. Is. Not. And hey, if it would be communism, then call me a commie, 'cause I like it. Why? Because it works. And as Kapitan said: Don't fix what ain't broken.
Respenus
08-25-09, 11:57 AM
This, this this this.....it all sums it up.
I don't really have a problem with america doing things differently. What I find disturbing is that some americans (certainly not all, but still, some,) call this communism. It. Is. Not. And hey, if it would be communism, then call me a commie, 'cause I like it. Why? Because it works. And as Kapitan said: Don't fix what ain't broken.
Thank you. :salute:
In less than 7 generations the U.S. went from a handful of frontier hicks to the most powerful nation in the world--in all respects, including economically. We must be doing a great deal that works. The core of our success is individual freedom, small government (until now), capitalism and the ability of the people to throw out the politicos every 2, 4 and 6 years--depending on the office.
The U.S. was founded on the concept that we were to be very different than Europe. It was a good idea then and just as good an idea now. Apparently many former Europeans agree because a great many came here from there, including my own ancestors. The flow of immigrants from the U.S. to Europe? A few Hollywood guys and a handful of others.
Respenus
08-25-09, 05:11 PM
In less than 7 generations the U.S. went from a handful of frontier hicks to the most powerful nation in the world--in all respects, including economically. We must be doing a great deal that works. The core of our success is individual freedom, small government (until now), capitalism and the ability of the people to throw out the politicos every 2, 4 and 6 years--depending on the office.
The U.S. was founded on the concept that we were to be very different than Europe. It was a good idea then and just as good an idea now. Apparently many former Europeans agree because a great many came here from there, including my own ancestors. The flow of immigrants from the U.S. to Europe? A few Hollywood guys and a handful of others.
I won't even try and tell you how complex the set of question you set are as it is too late for me to concentrate properly. Suffice to say, there are many variables which concern immigration in the past and present.
Plus I was never, and I believe most Europeans do the same as I do, talking about the greatness of a state. That is purely subjective, limited only by ones ability of self-denial about the true state of the world. No, we are talking about human beings which make up the state and the society. A state may be great, yet at what human cost. How does the old maxim go, What you do not see, doesn't hurt you? Yes, you might have a great state if measured in the number of people, troops, technology. Do you have any idea how many natural resources the USA have/had? Christ, put Europeans there (which is in fact a stupid division, as we are the same, the differences we perceive today appeared after your separation from the United Kingdom).
Yet do you have a majority of the population which is happy? Are the people, which you Americans so fondly mention, with all their rights; are they truly happy? It is impossible for everyone to be happy (even the idea of happiness is subjective, let's just say it is connected with life in general), yet I believe Europeans do sleep and feel better knowing there is a net, created and fought for by them, which will help them when the laissez-faire will let them down, not by their action or their own volition, yet due to the system itself. The ending statement was adeptly said by Biggles, read his response.
Aramike
08-25-09, 08:10 PM
Didja ever think that our constant complaining about taxes is the main reason we aren't being raped like you guys?Best point of the day!
Aramike
08-25-09, 08:17 PM
yet I believe Europeans do sleep and feel better knowing there is a net, created and fought for by them, which will help them when the laissez-faire will let them down, not by their action or their own volition, yet due to the system itself. I slept the best when I was a child, knowing that no matter what my parents has everything taken care of for me.
But to some people, life is about the liberty to make it what you want ... not the chain that ties you down while making you feel safe.
In other words, we decided to grow up, in a sense.
Task Force
08-25-09, 08:31 PM
fact is... america and europe are two different places... America does its thing its way... europe does its thing its way...
why europe is concerned what america is doing is beyone me...
Max2147
08-25-09, 08:40 PM
I think the American beef with taxes/government comes from the American reluctance to give the government credit for anything. The recent Craig T Nelson rant summed it up quite nicely (when whining about government spending: "I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anybody help me out? No.")
The general sense I get is that Americans and Europeans look at taxes from very different perspectives. I'm going to paint with a dangerously broad brush here, but I think it's worth saying. Europeans tend to focus more on what they get out of the government than what they put into it, while Americans tend to focus on what they put into the government instead of what they get out of it. In other words, when Europeans think of government, the first thing they think of are the social programs that the government gives them. The high taxes they have to pay are a secondary issue. Meanwhile, when Americans think of government, the first thing they think of is how much money they're paying the government. We tend to forget about government services that help us out, like Mr. Nelson's food stamps and welfare.
Of course, that isn't true for all Americans and Europeans, but I think the general trend is there.
Aramike
08-25-09, 08:52 PM
I think the American beef with taxes/government comes from the American reluctance to give the government credit for anything. The recent Craig T Nelson rant summed it up quite nicely (when whining about government spending: "I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anybody help me out? No.")We're supposed to have a government of the people by the people. Therefore the people should get the credit - not the government.
Also, as a side note, some people including me don't see welfare as helping people necessarily. I believe strongly in the principle behind teaching a man to fish rather than just feeding him a fish.
Didja ever think that our constant complaining about taxes is the main reason we aren't being raped like you guys?
hahaha
We brits complain a plenty about taxation... don't change the fact we get shafted at every turn - not only with income tax, but VAT, fuel duty, national insurance, and never mind about pensions... (what pensions? unless you're fred goodwin).
We just got out TV licence renewal... it's almost 150 ******* quid! Just to watch television for a year! and all you get to show for is is ****ty programs like 'strictly come dancing' and 'X-factor', or 'britain's got (no) talent'. the ultimate lowest common denominator programming :down:
Utility companies run for the benefit of shareholders and not for the service they're supposed to give, knowing too well that we all have no other choice but to take what is offered because we can't do without gas/electricity/water, so every year the service costs more yet is of a successively lower quality of service... rrrrrrrg! :hulk:
I'm certain the level of voter apathy here is a direct result of the fact that no matter what we complain about and no matter what is promised by successive governments, everything is more expensive in terms of what we have to pay out and anything that is due to us is worth less year by year.
It's like the ultimate pyramid scheme, only on a national scale :know:
About the only half decent thing about living here is the NHS and even that's a shadow of what it was intended to be at its incept, having been bloated by endless middle management drones and ill informed government initiatives. Leave the running of the NHS to medical professionals like doctors, consultants and nurses, not sodding bean counters ffs. :damn:
Don't even get me started on employment, or the despicable lack of it for anyone with more than 2 braincells to rub together.
This last bunch of thieving crooks and liars and their 'opposition parties' all have their heads so deep in the communal trough they are no longer interested in what their job means to the country. The worst kind of politician is a career politician, and they're all we seem to have left these days. So, more pity for the rest of us who aren't privy to inner sanctum of the cathedral of profit, whilst we dress in rags they are flaunting the ermine robes of expense accounts and connections and 'old boys' networks, the sole purpose of which are to keep everything close at hand and away from the batteries of the economy.
soz, got a bit carried away there.
SUBMAN1
08-25-09, 10:06 PM
http://www.kpmg.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Individual_Income_Tax_Rates-Survey_2009.pdf
If I hear ever again an American complain about taxes, I'm going to blow a fuse :D
Enjoy this pleasant reading material. It is quite informative.
This is because we don't have stupid policies like forced Health Care run by the Damn government. There is a reason we are as strong as we are and as wealthy as we are. Seems some stupid people don't get that.
-S
Max2147
08-25-09, 11:29 PM
We're supposed to have a government of the people by the people. Therefore the people should get the credit - not the government.
Also, as a side note, some people including me don't see welfare as helping people necessarily. I believe strongly in the principle behind teaching a man to fish rather than just feeding him a fish.
The government should get credit when the government does something good, and the people should get credit when the people do something good.
I agree with you on the teaching a man to fish vs. feeding him a fish. But you don't learn to fish instantly, and you need something to eat when you're learning. Welfare should not be used as a long-term solution to a person's problems, but it's still important to have as a short-term way to keep their head above water until they can solve their own problems.
Aramike
08-25-09, 11:48 PM
The government should get credit when the government does something good, and the people should get credit when the people do something good. But the government is supposed to be the people, so the point is moot.
Besides, the government gets tons of credit when it does well. It's just been very rare these days.I agree with you on the teaching a man to fish vs. feeding him a fish. But you don't learn to fish instantly, and you need something to eat when you're learning. Welfare should not be used as a long-term solution to a person's problems, but it's still important to have as a short-term way to keep their head above water until they can solve their own problems. I don't disagree with you at all on this. Unfortunately, though, welfare has become an end unto itself. I have a problem with that.
Tribesman
08-26-09, 02:48 AM
There is a reason we are as strong as we are and as wealthy as we are. Seems some stupid people don't get that.
The wealth of a nation is measured by counting your assets and deducting the liabilities .
Do the huge liabilities your country has negate the value of all the assets?
If so then you have negative wealth , but some stupid people don't get that.
soz, got a bit carried away there.
Sorry didn't mean to get you riled up. :DL
Every tax in the world is the same:
Too high.
In the U.S. self reliance and personal freedom is still (albeit a closer margin in these sad days) valued over being taken care of (on the terms of others) from cradle to grave.
I believe in the wisdom of the individual to make the right decisions in his life without the "wisdom" of the powerful "elite" who "know" what's best for everyone--always connected with the increase/ preservation of their own power. This is especially true when the government is not rewarding bad behavior and saving people from the consequences of their choices.
So give me another historical example of a country who rose so fast in less than seven generations as did the U.S. Plus we did it largely with the citizens that Europe put on "waivers".
Money the government spends/wastes is taken from the people. The people generally spend it much better and creat much better results--both for them and their fellow citizens.
CastleBravo
08-27-09, 03:50 PM
So give me another historical example of a country who rose so fast in less than seven generations as did the U.S.
Amen brother! And it wasn't about spreading the wealth around. It was about the Individual!!!!!
Yet do you have a majority of the population which is happy? Are the people, which you Americans so fondly mention, with all their rights; are they truly happy? It is impossible for everyone to be happy (even the idea of happiness is subjective, let's just say it is connected with life in general), yet I believe Europeans do sleep and feel better knowing there is a net, created and fought for by them, which will help them when the laissez-faire will let them down, not by their action or their own volition, yet due to the system itself. The ending statement was adeptly said by Biggles, read his response.
Most Americans are very happy--but are rarely satisfied. We strive for more not only in our lifetimes but from generation to generation.
My grandfather was kicked out of first grade because he could not speak English, but only German. By the way this was done by other Americans who had come from Germany. He never finished high school and started his working life painting outhouses for the Soo Railroad Line.
My dad was the first person in our family to attend (and graduate) from college.
I and two of my brothers are lawyers. Another of my brothers is even more successful in the business world. Both of my sisters are also doing very well. All six of us have college degrees and 5 of the 6 of us have graduate degrees.
This sort of thing happens all the time in the U.S. How common is it in "happy" Europe?
How common is it in "happy" Europe?
Come over and see for yourself. :|\\
Come over and see for yourself. :|\\
I've been there 4 times in my life, once for a three year stay. Europe is nice enough but it always seemed so fragile to me. Like it was ready at any moment to explode into war and destuction like it has so many times in the past.
I haven't ever regretted going but I was always darn glad to get back to the States.
Come over and see for yourself. :|\\
I have been--including the Netherlands (enjoyed your naval museum) and hope to again.
It ain't bad, but it sure ain't Texas.
Biggles
08-28-09, 04:02 AM
As we swedes say:
Borta bra, men hemma bäst.
Unless you hate your home, you're bound to prefer it, no matter where you go. I've been to the U.S a great number of times (lost the count really), last time was in January this year. I've also been to England, Thailand, Greece, Denmark, Germany, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Italy, and Jamaica. I for one have no real desire to move outside Sweden. I can see it happen, but it certainly isn't a goal I strive for.
As we swedes say:
Borta bra, men hemma bäst.
Unless you hate your home, you're bound to prefer it, no matter where you go. I've been to the U.S a great number of times (lost the count really), last time was in January this year. I've also been to England, Thailand, Greece, Denmark, Germany, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Italy, and Jamaica. I for one have no real desire to move outside Sweden. I can see it happen, but it certainly isn't a goal I strive for.
And that's the way it should be imo.
Biggles
08-28-09, 09:08 AM
And that's the way it should be imo.
Indeed, I guess we can agree on that. It's never fun when someone feels they have to leave their home, rather than having the choice to do so.
Indeed, I guess we can agree on that. It's never fun when someone feels they have to leave their home, rather than having the choice to do so.
Can you imagine a world where every country was the same? How utterly boring that would be.
Onkel Neal
08-28-09, 12:47 PM
I've been keeping up with this topic but I do not see what this has to do with Texas Around the World. :hmmm:
Biggles
08-28-09, 01:02 PM
I've been keeping up with this topic but I do not see what this has to do with Texas Around the World. :hmmm:
hoho, made me chuckle, good on you sir!:)
But as you said August, the world would indeed be very boring if every place were like the other. Fortunately, this is not the case, I know from my own experience:03: Also good is that we live on a planet that is rather large, and there's bound to be a place suitable for everyone. I'm lucky enough to live at a place more than suitable for me. Then ofcourse, your opinions and views of life will often be altered by your surroundings. Maybe I'm best suited to live in Sweden (a traditionally socialistic country) simply because I was born there:know:
nikimcbee
08-28-09, 06:04 PM
Part of the US average might be misleading. If this is an income tax graph, its averaging in states like WY and TX (zero income tax) to counter states like NY an, MA, and CA.:hmmm: It would be interesting to break the US by state, THEN redo the graph with the individual US states in there.:hmmm:
nikimcbee
08-28-09, 06:07 PM
I've been keeping up with this topic but I do not see what this has to do with Texas Around the World. :hmmm:
...and then show economic output~growth vs tax rate.
At that point I yell: "Get to the choppa" Nice avatar Neal.:yeah:
goldorak
08-28-09, 06:13 PM
Thanks Kapitan.
For the record i'm not philosophically opposed to nationalized health care, I just know that it's not going to be run efficiently, it will be riddled with abuse, it will end up costing us more than private health care, and it is a spectacularly bad time economically to be trying to implement it.
Just like the military. And it doesn't cost as much. :D
Maybe just maybe the US should spend a little less on military affairs and invest a little bit more on its citizens. And no, downgrading your military will not bring about the end of the world.
You know why you won the cold war don't you ? Not because of military supremacy but because your adversary went backrupt. And if you continue spending like there is no tomorrow the US will experience the same fate as the old USSR.
nikimcbee
08-28-09, 06:15 PM
Just like the military. And it doesn't cost as much. :D
Maybe just maybe the US should spend a little less on military affairs and invest a little bit more on its citizens. And no, downgrading your military will not bring about the end of the world.
You know why you won the cold war don't you ? Not because of military supremacy but because your adversary went backrupt.
They already do, the social securty/ medicare budget is larger than the military budget.
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq64/mcgannc42/US_Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png
Just like the military. And it doesn't cost as much. :D
Maybe just maybe the US should spend a little less on military affairs and invest a little bit more on its citizens. And no, downgrading your military will not bring about the end of the world.
You know why you won the cold war don't you ? Not because of military supremacy but because your adversary went bankrupt. And if you continue spending like there is no tomorrow the US will experience the same fate as the old USSR.
The U.S. has traditionally believed that each of its citizens could and should take care of him/her self, family and community with little or no involvement of the federal government. We are a very charitable lot and have local, county and state levels of government which are much closer to the people.
When I was growing up in the 60's and 70's there was great deal of discussion and concerning about our large military budget. But honest concern about that issue has wained, along with the size of the military budget relative to our GNP and current spending allocations. Transfer payments to our own citizens now dominate the budget and threaten to bankrupt us over time--not military spending.
So what if we or the democracies of Europe are attacked by foreign enemies of whatever stripe or flavor on anywhere near the scale that we saw just 70 and less years ago? How many European countries could afford to defend themselves? Is the number great than 0? I worry about our own ability to do so as well--given our current vector of becoming a national nanny state.
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