US Marine puts US Congressman in his place.

[Sea Demon]

This is great. A USMC vet has his way with Democrat Congressman Brian Baird. Very heartwarming to see real Americans standing up to these big government liberal types.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/22/video-marine-goes-nuclear-on-democrat-over-obamacare/

[Aramike]

This is great. A USMC vet has his way with Democrat Congressman Brian Baird. Very heartwarming to see real Americans standing up to these big government liberal types.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/22/video-marine-goes-nuclear-on-democrat-over-obamacare/He made some good points but I'm a tad disappointed that the Congressman's response wasn't included.

[GoldenRivet]

He made some good points but I'm a tad disappointed that the Congressman's response wasn't included.

agreed.

but i still think congress sucks :yep:

[Tribesman]

So you have somene who worked for the government , gets an education plan from the government , healthcare from the government and if he worked for long enough for the government gets a retirement plan from the government complaining that the government should butt out.

[Platapus]

So you have somene who worked for the government , gets an education plan from the government , healthcare from the government and if he worked for long enough for the government gets a retirement plan from the government complaining that the government should butt out.

Well it is only socialism when someone else gets stuff you understand. :doh:
:D

[Tchocky]

real Americans

That's a strange division.

[Tribesman]

That's a strange division.
No thats a normal division throughout this farcical healthcare debate.
If someone agrees with what is being said then the person saying it is a real American , if they oppose what is being said then the person saying it is un-American.
It's a wonderful division and it works for both sides , the fact that it is nonsense doesn't make it that strange really.
Entertaining would be a much better word than strange.

[Rilder]

real Americans

WHAT ABOUT US FAKE AMERICANS?

Wheres our representation? YEAH WHERE IS IT?!?!?! HUH?

[AngusJS]

This is great. A USMC vet has his way with Democrat Congressman Brian Baird. Very heartwarming to see real Americans standing up to these big government liberal types.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/22/video-marine-goes-nuclear-on-democrat-over-obamacare/

Typical right wing BS. Doesn't make sense, but it sounds tough, and that's all that counts.

He's a Marine vet, so whatever he says has to be extra-true!

"Stay away from my children!" Dey ain't go no need for edjikation.

He gets pissed off because the plan preserves the right that he cares so much about. Brilliant. Would he be happier if it didn't give him what he wanted?

How has the congressman violated his constitutional oath? He hasn't? But it sounded all good and tough, right? That's all that counts for right wingers in this debate (read: shouting match).

"The Nazis did X, Y and Z, and so have we!" They built an interstate, and so have we! Horrors! Because EVERY LAST THING the Nazis did was wrong and dripping with evil.

The Nazis took over health care! OH NOES! We must save the UK, France, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Italy, Spain, Canada, Australia, etc. They've all been duped into adopting Nazi policies! Sweden must be a Nazi hell! (Or a fascist, communist, socialist or Marxist hell; we don't care what the words mean, all we care about is how they sound.) We must liberate them at once! It's certainly not the case that these countries adopted national health care systems because they actually work, and work better than ours. That's impossible. The US is the best in everything that has ever existed!

And he is wrong on history. The Nazis weren't left wing. If they were left wing, why did votes for RIGHT WING PARTIES dry up with their rise in popularity, while left wing parties experienced a much smaller decline?

And yes, how dare this administration AND THE PREVIOUS REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION take drastic measures to try and stave off another Great Depression. It would have been much better to do nothing, and let unemployment reach 30%.

And the thing is, he actually had notes to read off of. He took notes, and that was the best he could do?

We conveniently don't know what the Democrat's response was, but I can imagine it was weak-kneed and pathetic. They have to start calling these idiots out on their BS.

[mookiemookie]

No thats a normal division throughout this farcical healthcare debate.
If someone agrees with what is being said then the person saying it is a real American , if they oppose what is being said then the person saying it is un-American.
It's a wonderful division and it works for both sides , the fact that it is nonsense doesn't make it that strange really.
Entertaining would be a much better word than strange.

What's funny is that for the last 8 years, those of us who protested the wars were labelled loons and un-American. Now all of a sudden protesting makes you a "real American". :doh:

[August]

Here we go, the Bush = teh hitlerz crowd makes their appearance.

[Rilder]

Here we go, the Bush = teh hitlerz crowd makes their appearance.

GODWIN!!!!!!!!! :rotfl:

[GoldenRivet]

Well it is only socialism when someone else gets stuff you understand. :doh:
:D

its only socialism when someone else gets stuff you pay for

[AngusJS]

Here we go, the Bush = teh hitlerz crowd makes their appearance.Yeah, the guy's argument was so devastating, we were reduced to "Well....Uh....yeah...but BUSH = HITLER!1!!1" :roll:

It's ironic that you would write that, because half of what this guy did was basically say "OBAMA = HITLER!!1!1", which is just as moronic as the former slogan.

[razark]

What's funny is that for the last 8 years, those of us who protested the wars were labelled loons and un-American. Now all of a sudden protesting makes you a "real American". :doh:

Just tell them what they told us for those eight years.

"This is America! Love it or leave it!"

[August]

Just tell them what they told us for those eight years.

"This is America! Love it or leave it!"

As matter of fact I have yet to hear a conservative threaten to leave this country if the current president is reelected.

[mookiemookie]

Just tell them what they told us for those eight years.

"This is America! Love it or leave it!"

I'm sure all of the "I Support Our President No Matter What!" bumper stickers have become very slow sellers on the right wing websites now. :rotfl:

Remember the "don't tase me bro!" guy? Here's what O'Reilly had to say about him:

On September 18, 2007: "It's not pleasant, but that idiot, he wanted this to happen. He wanted the cops to do it. He wanted to disrupt the forum. And to me, I think he should be prosecuted...Well, what about disrupting the peace? You know, this is what -- look, the guy goes in there. He's totally inappropriate in every way, Jeanine [Pirro]. There isn't one appropriate thing the man did. He wants to disrupt the forum. Security has an obligation not to allow the forum to be disrupted."Funny how he's not saying that anymore about the town hall screamers, eh?

[August]

Funny how he's not saying that anymore about the town hall screamers, eh?

It's no more funny than how you refuse to realize it was never about what the guy was saying but that he wouldn't leave when asked. I didn't see that Marine in the video scuffling with the cops did you?

[Tribesman]

its only socialism when someone else gets stuff you pay for
You mean like roads, passenger trains, police, airliners ,armies, fire dept.......but when it comes to health hell no.
The funny thing though is that with private health insurance you pay for what other people get , just like you do with car insurance and property insurance.
So apparently you have been living with "socialism" all your life and been perfectly happy with it.

[Sea Demon]

You mean like roads, passenger trains, police, airliners ,armies, fire dept.......but when it comes to health hell no.
The funny thing though is that with private health insurance you pay for what other people get , just like you do with car insurance and property insurance.
So apparently you have been living with "socialism" all your life and been perfectly happy with it.

Roads, police, fire, etc. are not socialism. They are common use items derived from the unwritten yet recognized social contract between taxpayers and government. There is nothing wrong with the concept of reasonable taxation for elements of common use. YOUR own healthcare is NOT common use. Nor is it any concern of mine. It is your personal responsibility.

The problem with liberalism/socialism is it abuses the concept of this social contract. It seeks to alleviate personal responsibility for things people should be providing for themselves. Under these terms, liberals destroy all precepts of personal liberty as anything can be coined as common use. The further we go, the more the liberal wants.

[Sea Demon]

Just tell them what they told us for those eight years.

"This is America! Love it or leave it!"

People are protesting loss of liberty, and intrusive government. It's obvious they aren't going anywhere, and are willing to fight. I'm glad to see Americans challenging these leftwing Democrat members of Congress who seem to think they have a say in what "we can have" or not. Too bad there are many who simply don't understand nor desire liberty. They are simply interested in empowering government to seize property from some to distribute to others.

The core of liberty is personal responsibility. Without it, you have nothing. That's what this whole thing boils down to. The entire health care debate is totally driven by who takes responsibility for their own healthcare. A free, independant, and responsible citizenry, or big intrusive government on behalf of a fearful and dependant mass of serfs.

[mookiemookie]

It's no more funny than how you refuse to realize it was never about what the guy was saying but that he wouldn't leave when asked. I didn't see that Marine in the video scuffling with the cops did you?

The reason the cops were trying to haul him off was that he was being disruptive. The exact same thing that's going on now.

[August]

The reason the cops were trying to haul him off was that he was being disruptive. The exact same thing that's going on now.

How do you figure? Did the Marine refuse to relinquish the microphone when asked? Did he scuffle with cops trying to escort him from the premises?

No. He said his piece and departed peacefully. That is NOT disruptive unless it's his opinion itself that you object to.

[SteamWake]

How do you figure? Did the Marine refuse to relinquish the microphone when asked? Did he scuffle with cops trying to escort him from the premises?

No. He said his piece and departed peacefully. That is NOT disruptive unless it's his opinion itself that you object to.

Never mind the substance and berate the source. Its an old tactic.

[Biggles]

its only socialism when someone else gets stuff you pay for

And you get stuff they pay for:03:

[August]

For comparison this is a clip of the "Don't tase me bro" guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Qef8oPmag&feature=related

[antikristuseke]

Never mind the substance and berate the source. Its an old tactic.

Frm what I heard there was very little substance to what the marine said. Most of it was empty rethoric.

[SteamWake]

And you get stuff they pay for:03:

But I dont want their stuff

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200503/10/eng20050310_176261.html

[AngusJS]

How do you figure? Did the Marine refuse to relinquish the microphone when asked? Did he scuffle with cops trying to escort him from the premises?

No. He said his piece and departed peacefully. That is NOT disruptive unless it's his opinion itself that you object to.

This Marine handled himself ok, but there are many examples of right wingers being disruptive at these townhalls over the past few months. O'Reilly et al are strangely silent about it. I wonder why.

[Biggles]

But I dont want their stuff

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200503/10/eng20050310_176261.html

That's pretty funny, but Cuba is a communist state, not a social-you know what, forget it, I know what I think of the difference between the two, but I don't wanna hijack this thread):O:

[August]

This Marine handled himself ok, but there are many examples of right wingers being disruptive at these townhalls over the past few months. O'Reilly et al are strangely silent about it. I wonder why.

Maybe they aren't but you have several other networks screaming from the rooftops about it as well as the President and members of Congress are repeatedly trying to cast objectors in a negative light. Note that I said President and members of Congress not some unofficial pundits.

Had Bush or the member of of the Republican congress used close to the same rhetoric the outcry from the media would have been immense.

Double standards dude.

[Aramike]

Typical right wing BS. Doesn't make sense, but it sounds tough, and that's all that counts.Really? Made perfect sense, even though I didn't agree completely. But I understand what he said and his motivations for saying so.

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. (Even though I actually do believe that you do understand it, but as a typical lefty you find your side to be "elite" and any other opinion must be labeled nonsensical garbage.)He's a Marine vet, so whatever he says has to be extra-true!There is a perception in this country by many people that those who serve have earned the priviledge of speaking, whereas everyone else just excercises their right. I have no problem with that perspective as it honors the individuals who serve us all.

I could say your point makes no sense, but it does and I disagree with it. I like to think of myself as intellectually honest. You should try it."Stay away from my children!" Dey ain't go no need for edjikation.Umm, you did know the context of that point wasn't education, right?

Oh, and maybe you don't get this, either (not a surprise): The Congressman is part of the FEDERAL government. Education is handled locally. The Marine was talking to the Congressman. Ergo, he was telling the Congressman to keep the federal government away from his children.

It's amazing what a little thinking can do for you. The thick irony here is that you lefties were so worked up over Bush's FEDERAL No Child Left Behind, but when a guy tells the feds to stay out of his children's lives, well that must be just some hill-billy, crazy-folk talk, right?He gets pissed off because the plan preserves the right that he cares so much about. Brilliant. Would he be happier if it didn't give him what he wanted?Again, you don't get something that is so incredibly obvious. He's pissed off because he doesn't feel that the federal government has any authority to "allow" us to have any rights! I agree with him, because if we start allowing the government to allow us to do certain things, we have then ceded the authority to them to DISALLOW certain things.

Quite franky, even I find it offensive when politicians say that they will "let" me do something.

It may be semantics, but with the nationalization track record of liberals over the Obama presidency, why take the risk?And yes, how dare this administration AND THE PREVIOUS REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION take drastic measures to try and stave off another Great Depression. It would have been much better to do nothing, and let unemployment reach 30%. Considering that only around 5% of the stimulus has actually be spent, and the economy is stabilizing, it seems as though Obama's massive spending plan has been either a failure, or a waste of 95% (which to me is also a failure).And the thing is, he actually had notes to read off of. He took notes, and that was the best he could do? He did better than you've done in this entire post, and you have Google and the edit function to work with.We conveniently don't know what the Democrat's response was, but I can imagine it was weak-kneed and pathetic. They have to start calling these idiots out on their BS. I agree (and immediately said in this thread) that the rebuttal should not have been cut.

Also, note how I have nothing to comment on regarding his Nazi tirade. He may have just been making fun of the idiot Pelosi, but to be honest, I'm REALLY sick of hearing the Nazis come up EVERY freakin' time we have a contentious issue. But I can't help but wonder if you shared the same indignation when the left wing nuts were making similarly absurd accusations about Bush...

[PeriscopeDepth]

People are protesting loss of liberty, and intrusive government.

Fair enough, enough of that been going around lately. But where were you guys the last 10 years? I believe there was a somewhat minor expansion of government during that time.

PD

[TLAM Strike]

Roads, police, fire, etc. are not socialism. They are common use items derived from the unwritten yet recognized social contract between taxpayers and government. There is nothing wrong with the concept of reasonable taxation for elements of common use. YOUR own healthcare is NOT common use. Nor is it any concern of mine. It is your personal responsibility.
What if you had a contagious virus and did not seek treatment? That would be a concern of mine and society. Or if you did not maintain your heath due to lack of access and became sick with an otherwise avoidable illness due to a weakend immune system and you spread that virus, thats a concern of mine because I could get sick, and becomes a concern of society since I would miss work depriving the customers of that establishment of our product and reducing my wages lowering the amount of income tax the goverment recives from me which also increases the burden on other tax payers.

Or if you had a physical injury that prevented you from working but was treatable should you be able to pay for it. In that case you would be draining the coffers of the goverment for the rest of your life on disablity while contributing less to the tax base (because you don't work and thus pay little in taxes) insted of reciving a one time treatment at the goverments expense that you end up repaying via your future income taxes.

[mookiemookie]

Maybe they aren't but you have several other networks screaming from the rooftops about it as well as the President and members of Congress are repeatedly trying to cast objectors in a negative light. Note that I said President and members of Congress not some unofficial pundits.

Had Bush or the member of of the Republican congress used close to the same rhetoric the outcry from the media would have been immense.

Double standards dude.

No, they didn't have to say anything at all as they roped all protesters into "free speech zones" miles away. Double standards indeed.

[August]

No, they didn't have to say anything at all as they roped all protesters into "free speech zones" miles away. Double standards indeed.

I remember them doing that at the Democrats convention.

I'm still waiting for your justification for the comparison between the "don't tase me" dude and this Marine.

[Aramike]

I remember them doing that at the Democrats convention.

I'm still waiting for your justification for the comparison between the "don't tase me" dude and this Marine.They did. But his outrage isn't for the activity, its for the people engaging in it.

[mookiemookie]

I remember them doing that at the Democrats convention.

I'm still waiting for your justification for the comparison between the "don't tase me" dude and this Marine.

Wasn't talking specifically against this guy. Just the town hall screamers in general.

But his outrage isn't for the activity, its for the people engaging in it. Nice try, but no. I was making the point that the talking heads will get all in a tizzy about people disrupting political events unless it happens to be their favored people.

[Aramike]

Nice try, but no. I was making the point that the talking heads will get all in a tizzy about people disrupting political events unless it happens to be their favored people. Fair enough, but then you clearly see how that can be a problem with an overwhelmingly liberal media, right?

Besides, some political event are designed for the very purpose of people giving their feedback. Conventions and rallies are not.

[SteamWake]

No, they didn't have to say anything at all as they roped all protesters into "free speech zones" miles away. Double standards indeed.

Ummm Cindy Sheehan comes to mind. Dont remember her being roped off.

Remember her... "My god the president is on vacation while were at war overseas"...

Where are those cries now?

[ETR3(SS)]

I may be the only to see this being a vet but I can understand this Marine's...shall I say fervor, on this topic. As a veteran I took the Oath of Enlistment, like the Marine briefly described, to protect the rights of the Citizens of the United States of America. I've been called all sorts of names by people because I was a part of the military during a turbulent time. There were people that didn't like Bush and because I was in the military associated me with the now former President. Occasionally I would get a heart felt thank you form some people, but to be honest I don't think I even have to use my other hand to count how many. I, like many others, could handle the name calling by the very people we defended. What really hurts, what really buries the knife in your back, is when elected officials of this country try to undo, one piece at a time, the rights and privileges I and others fought and sacrificed to maintain. I salute this Marine, my brother in arms, for displaying the utmost professionalism while before an elected official of this nation. :salute: Semper Fi brother!

[AngusJS]

Really? Made perfect sense, even though I didn't agree completely. But I understand what he said and his motivations for saying so.

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. (Even though I actually do believe that you do understand it, but as a typical lefty you find your side to be "elite" and any other opinion must be labeled nonsensical garbage.)First off, you don't know a thing about me. Second off, by no means do right wingers have a monopoly on stupidity. There are responsible Republicans who are rational. If they disagree with health care, bully for them. Only problem is, they seem to be a dying breed. Many Repubs today appear to be plunging to the bottom as fast as they can, to capitalize on the lowest common denominator with rhetoric similar to the BS this guy was spouting.

There is a perception in this country by many people that those who serve have earned the priviledge of speaking, whereas everyone else just excercises their right. I have no problem with that perspective as it honors the individuals who serve us all.I do not accept that. Holding to that perception opens the door to the notion that the truth value of speech rests more on who is speaking than on what is being said, which this guy took advantage of.

I could say your point makes no sense, but it does and I disagree with it. I like to think of myself as intellectually honest. You should try it.:har: That's rich coming from you. Feigning incomprehension to try and score a cheap point is one of your favorite tricks. I don't use it, but I believe you cannot honestly say the same.

I see no mention of his constitutional oath crap. Do you accept it or not? Do I have permission to find it nonsensical?


Umm, you did know the context of that point wasn't education, right?

Oh, and maybe you don't get this, either (not a surprise): The Congressman is part of the FEDERAL government. Education is handled locally. The Marine was talking to the Congressman. Ergo, he was telling the Congressman to keep the federal government away from his children.

It's amazing what a little thinking can do for you. The thick irony here is that you lefties were so worked up over Bush's FEDERAL No Child Left Behind, but when a guy tells the feds to stay out of his children's lives, well that must be just some hill-billy, crazy-folk talk, right?No @#$% Sherlock. Since when does being a member of the Federal government prevent you from talking generally about certain topics? As soon as it provides an opportunity to make political hay, I guess.

Again, you don't get something that is so incredibly obvious. He's pissed off because he doesn't feel that the federal government has any authority to "allow" us to have any rights! I agree with him, because if we start allowing the government to allow us to do certain things, we have then ceded the authority to them to DISALLOW certain things.

Quite franky, even I find it offensive when politicians say that they will "let" me do something.

It may be semanticsDING DING DING DING! It's all meaningless semantics, distorting the intention behind the original language to create a talking point. I'm reminded of another Marine, Zell Miller speaking at the 2004 Republican Convention, who got wild applause for criticizing Democrats for referring to the occupation of Iraq, rather than its liberation. It's that kind of pointless macho posturing BS, based on nothing but the distortion of words, that I'm going on about. The fact that this guy pulled that trick using language describing a part of the plan which he would be in favor of, made it even dumber.

but with the nationalization track record of liberals over the Obama presidency, why take the risk? Considering that only around 5% of the stimulus has actually be spent, and the economy is stabilizing, it seems as though Obama's massive spending plan has been either a failure, or a waste of 95% (which to me is also a failure).Listen to what he actually says. He wasn't talking about the stimulus package, he was talking in part about the National SOCIALIST TAKEOVER OF THE FINANCIAL INDUSTRY!1!!!1 Too bad the present day "takeover" began under Bush, and was initiated by die hard free marketers. But hey, what are facts to right wing nuts?

He did better than you've done in this entire post, and you have Google and the edit function to work with.I beg to differ.

Also, note how I have nothing to comment on regarding his Nazi tirade. He may have just been making fun of the idiot Pelosi, but to be honest, I'm REALLY sick of hearing the Nazis come up EVERY freakin' time we have a contentious issue. But I can't help but wonder if you shared the same indignation when the left wing nuts were making similarly absurd accusations about Bush...I thought the Bush-Hitler stuff was idiotic back then, just as I think the Obama-Hitler crap is stupid, thank you very much.

To sum it up: if you're against health care because you have reason to believe that it'll be too expensive, or that the government has the anti-Midas touch, or that collective action is inherently wrong, or that it's every American's god given right to have the opportunity to have their coverage dropped at the worst possible time, or that it's a good and righteous thing that the US pays far and away the most for health care as a percentage of GDP while receiving average care, with a sixth of the country having no care at all, then great, we can have a debate.

This guy didn't bother with actual reason, though. He just got up there with the same old BS rhetoric which we've heard for months, most of which doesn't even make sense as I've shown, and he got praised for it.

Apparently you feel that your points are so weak, you must buttress them with insults. I initially answered in kind, but then decided to remove them. I'm ending this conversation before you turn it into a flamewar.

[Aramike]

First off, you don't know a thing about me. Wrong. I know exactly what you show me through your writings. Unless you're lying, communicating poorly, etc., that's what I know and the extent of what I know. And that's the position my commentary comes from.Second off, by no means do right wingers have a monopoly on stupidity. There are responsible Republicans who are rational. If they disagree with health care, bully for them. Only problem is, they seem to be a dying breed. Many Repubs today appear to be plunging to the bottom as fast as they can, to capitalize on the lowest common denominator with rhetoric similar to the BS this guy was spouting.Judging by the fact that Obama's popularity is waning, and most polls show the nation is heading towards the right, I'm going to suggest that your making a biased statement with no actual basis in fact.

You're entitled to your opinion. Just like me, and my opinion is that you're wrong.I do not accept that. Holding to that perception opens the door to the notion that the truth value of speech rests more on who is speaking than on what is being said, which this guy took advantage of.Whether or not you accept it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Furthermore, no one has a right to have their speech be of any value whatsoever. It's up to people to decide such things. However, people can also decide to respect a certain type of individual with listening a little closer when they speak.:har: That's rich coming from you. Feigning incomprehension to try and score a cheap point is one of your favorite tricks. I don't use it, but I believe you cannot honestly say the same.Did you actually read what I wrote? I specifically said that I *DO* comprehend what you're saying, but disagree with it.I see no mention of his constitutional oath crap. Do you accept it or not? Do I have permission to find it nonsensical?Dude, its called political rhetoric. From some perspectives, the congressman has not kept his oath. From others, he has. But the bottom line is that it was an opinion, and I can understand why the individual has it (even though I do not agree).

Political rhetoric is about accentuating a point, not making one. So yes, it makes perfect sense in context. I don't agree with him, but it makes sense.No @#$% Sherlock. Since when does being a member of the Federal government prevent you from talking generally about certain topics? As soon as it provides an opportunity to make political hay, I guess.Wow, go back and read my point again. You really missed it. Badly.DING DING DING DING! It's all meaningless semantics, distorting the intention behind the original language to create a talking point. I'm reminded of another Marine, Zell Miller speaking at the 2004 Republican Convention, who got wild applause for criticizing Democrats for referring to the occupation of Iraq, rather than its liberation. It's that kind of pointless macho posturing BS, based on nothing but the distortion of words, that I'm going on about. The fact that this guy pulled that trick using language describing a part of the plan which he would be in favor of, made it even dumber.Are you kidding? Do you even live in this country? Do you have ANY idea how it works?

The reason the language is being picked over so much is because you have a judiciary that answers to no one. So, while there may be no intent for, say, Death Panels, someone could easily later say that that's what the bill means. A judge could easily then interpret that to be correct, should it be challenged and brought to court. So while the bill specifically doesn't say certain things, it can be (clearly) interpetted in certain ways.

And really, have you even known ANY politician or bureaucrat to not interpret things in the way they WANT them to mean?Listen to what he actually says. He wasn't talking about the stimulus package, he was talking in part about the National SOCIALIST TAKEOVER OF THE FINANCIAL INDUSTRY!1!!!1 Too bad the present day "takeover" began under Bush, and was initiated by die hard free marketers. But hey, what are facts to right wing nuts?Seriously, you should stop and try to read my points carefully, in context, before you respond. You're not doing yourself any favors.

Read my point again, in the context of what I was responding to. I even made it easy for you, using the "quote" function.I beg to differ.Keep begging.I thought the Bush-Hitler stuff was idiotic back then, just as I think the Obama-Hitler crap is stupid, thank you very much.Fair enough. To be honest, somehow I doubt that you've expressed such indignation over it (which is actually what I wrote, anyway), but I have no reason to believe that you supported it, either.To sum it up: if you're against health care because you have reason to believe that it'll be too expensive, or that the government has the anti-Midas touch, or that collective action is inherently wrong, or that it's every American's god given right to have the opportunity to have their coverage dropped at the worst possible time, or that it's a good and righteous thing that the US pays far and away the most for health care as a percentage of GDP while receiving average care, with a sixth of the country having no care at all, then great, we can have a debate. Too bad you have no idea who you're talking to. I'm not a "right wing nut". In fact, I'm fiercely independant. Furthermore, I have stated, time and time again, that I'm in favor of healthcare reform and even nationalized healthcare. Frankly, I believe we already have a foolish, incredibly inefficient version of that.

However, the Obama plan is simply STUPID. No way around it. I've actually made suggestions to the kind of plan that I think would work in other threads. Obama's plan will not work.

No large nation has efficient nationalized healthcare ... but in my opinion, that doesn't mean it is impossible.This guy didn't bother with actual reason, though. He just got up there with the same old BS rhetoric which we've heard for months, most of which doesn't even make sense as I've shown, and he got praised for it.I praise anyone who stands up to elected officials for the right reasons.

By the way, you really should research topics more prior to engaging in debate on them. You DO know why the marine was pissed at Congressman Baird, right? Hint: Google "Baird Brownshirt".Apparently you feel that your points are so weak, you must buttress them with insults. I initially answered in kind, but then decided to remove them. I'm ending this conversation before you turn it into a flamewar. Wasn't trying to be insulting, but oh well. Some people don't have thick skin.

And no, my points aren't weak. Judging by your replies, you just never bothered to read them.

[Frame57]

What a classic example of what an entitlement society has become. It really boils down to the socialist=gimme everything for free+big government. The conservative=you get what you pay for+you get what you earn.

Since when has healthcare become a right? Tough monkey spunk! If you can not afford it, then die. That is life. But that is MO. The reality is you can still go to any ER and get care just like the illegals and not pay for it too. Then complain about the cost of HC being too high.

The way to lower HC costs is too kick the friggin illegals out of the country. Then cap all medical lawsuits. In a couple of years our premiums would probably be half of what they are today.

Every dime the government spends is money the taxpayer provided. So once again, Freddy the freeloader takes from those that have and give to the street bums that zombyfy frisco. I hope the Marxists Obama gets everything he wants because until the American people get out of their entitlement mindset nothing will be done to get this communist bum out of the white house and send him to Moscow.

[Sea Demon]

What if you had a contagious virus and did not seek treatment? That would be a concern of mine and society. Or if you did not maintain your heath due to lack of access and became sick with an otherwise avoidable illness due to a weakend immune system and you spread that virus, thats a concern of mine because I could get sick, and becomes a concern of society since I would miss work depriving the customers of that establishment of our product and reducing my wages lowering the amount of income tax the goverment recives from me which also increases the burden on other tax payers.

Or if you had a physical injury that prevented you from working but was treatable should you be able to pay for it. In that case you would be draining the coffers of the goverment for the rest of your life on disablity while contributing less to the tax base (because you don't work and thus pay little in taxes) insted of reciving a one time treatment at the goverments expense that you end up repaying via your future income taxes.

Lots of what-ifs there. And like I said, these type of arguments are based on fear of what-ifs. I say we quarantine you if you become some viral plague infected sop. Like we currently would. And as would be the case if a nanny state solution was in place. Do you think viruses or contagions couldn't/don't happen where there is nanny state health care like the UK or Canada? If so, stop fooling yourself. This is mere deflection of the main argument. Who's domain does your personal healthcare belong to. I guess you can make these same tax base draining arguments for some sort of government sponsored single payer universal auto insurance as well. Right? As too many collisions among uninsured motorists could drain the taxpayers coffers all the same. Right? In effect, you can make the same nanny statism argument for many things. But where does it end TLAM? You're almost saying that individual's personal healthcare is some sort of "right" that you're "entitled" to receive. Of course there's issues there.

The bottom line in health care is, in order for you to receive health care services, someone has to provide you with that service. This means that someone has to expend time, energy, intellectual property etc. to provide you with YOUR health care. Usually this health care provider is compensated for their time and property. But if healthcare is a "right", or could cause undue "burdens" on the taxpayers dole, and is provided by the "government" "free of charge", then that would mean that you are legally entitled to the healthcare provider's time and property. Sorry, but your own personal healthcare does not belong to me or any physician. Nor do I feel compelled to pay for you.