AI Wolfpacks?

[hachiman]

Hi

Any chance we might get AI wolfpacks in the single player campaign?

Thanx

[gdogghenrikson]

Im not getting my hopes up

[JU_88]

IMHO It would be travasty if they neglected this for the third time in a row.

Everyone keeps saying 'Wolfpacks' but what we need is an AI routine for NPC submarines.
Once they have been granted 'a brain' (so they know what the hell they are doing in the SH5 would) - NPC Uboats or Enermy subs can simply be dumped in to the campaign like any other unit.

How hard can it be to Code some decent AI for submarines? (along with Torpedo controller)
Not too hard - but I appreciate they would require slighly more complex routines than say - Escorts.
Subs however need to be told, when to dive, when to surface, when to try and attack & when to do a runner etc.

In the past modders have applied merchant? AI routines to NPC subs, so they can at least follow way points, shoot at stuff with their guns and zig-zag. Its Better than nothing but its far from ideal.
Several talented modders tried to make a frankenstien AI Torpedo controller and some made actual progress before hitting a brick wall.

In SH3 when asked about Ai subs & wolfpacks, the devs said 'No but maybe in the next version'
..then they said the same in SH4... :wah:
So fingers crossed this time. :yep:

[Annatar]

Wolfpacks are my personal dealbreaker this time. Graphics aren't terribly important to me, first person perspective isn't particularly important to me. These things are nice, don't get me wrong, but it'll feel like we're just treading water if after all this time we still can't get some AI boats.

[Nippelspanner]

Wolfpacks are my personal dealbreaker this time.

Could not agree more!

Im dissapointed by Ubisoft. SH3 was a bad joke and SH4 was even worse. For me only the Mods, especially GWX made SH3 worth the money...

If they dont get it right this time, Im totally done with Ubisoft´s products.

[JU_88]

Could not agree more!

Im dissapointed by Ubisoft. SH3 was a bad joke and SH4 was even worse. For me only the Mods, especially GWX made SH3 worth the money...

If they dont get it right this time, Im totally done with Ubisoft´s products.


Now now, SH3 was still a good game, even out of the box. Fair enough it was an Silent Hunter 'comeback' title and had to built from the ground up including the game engine (hence the looooong develpment time)
Sh4 was rushed out the door somewhat, bar the graphical improvments, it was really no better or worse than SH3 overal in terms of gameplay, I rate them about equal.

But now they have an engine, a weath of 3d material and plenty of code -all ready to go, they can certainly invest more time & resources in to things like Submarine AI (look at the interior work they've done already)

[Gezoes]

Maybe this'll work. When you receive a convoy contact, there's a X percent chance another U-boat (or 2, lets not overdo it) will join the attack. They must be fully functioning subs ofcourse.

Same for when you report a convoy contact. It already works that way with planes, more or less, so maybe it can be done this way with subs as well...

[John Channing]

If they dont get it right this time, Im totally done with Ubisoft´s products.

I have heard this so many times about so many Ubisoft games I am frankly surprised they don't have to give the things away at flea markets!



"Sales for the second quarter of 2009-10 are expected to come in at around €80 million..."

JCC

[difool2]

Maybe this'll work. When you receive a convoy contact, there's a X percent chance another U-boat (or 2, lets not overdo it) will join the attack. They must be fully functioning subs ofcourse.

Same for when you report a convoy contact. It already works that way with planes, more or less, so maybe it can be done this way with subs as well...

Heck, in SH3 sometimes a friendly U-boat will report convoys on the map (circular not square contacts)-they just won't attack (not sure if they get sunk by the escorts or such).

[JU_88]

Heck, in SH3 sometimes a friendly U-boat will report convoys on the map (circular not square contacts)-they just won't attack (not sure if they get sunk by the escorts or such).

They will try to attack with the deck gun - and promptly get sunk or as a result.

[Navarre]

I have heard this so many times about so many Ubisoft games I am frankly surprised they don't have to give the things away at flea markets!
We here in Germany have traditionally a higher opinion than the rest of the world concerning product quality. Even PC games must achieved here a very high quality level, documented by the 4-6 gaming print-magazines we have to avoid the loss of sales for the publisher.

[SteamWake]

We here in Germany have traditionally a higher opinion than the rest of the world concerning product quality. Even PC games must achieved here a very high quality level, documented by the 4-6 gaming print-magazines we have to avoid the loss of sales for the publisher.

Uhhh the development team is in Romainia. Not sure how this is relevant.

Anyhow I'm pretty sure they have heard the message about wolfpacks by now.

[tater]

Wolfpacks are pretty critical to the ATO, and are even important for later war in the PTO. The ATO without wolfpacks would be like a subsim where the ships don't properly zig-zag in war zones... oh, wait.

[Gezoes]

Heck, in SH3 sometimes a friendly U-boat will report convoys on the map (circular not square contacts)-they just won't attack (not sure if they get sunk by the escorts or such).

Yep, I believe GWX was responsible for that? Although they cannot dive and attack only with the deck gun, it's great :up: Sometimes they succeed and when the player meets up with the convoy, some ships may be burning.

I want them fully functional this time around with a small brain. And I want them to respond. Can't be that hard really. I also hope Ubi got the message, although a confirmation would be very nice...:smug: the fact that there has been none on this issue has me a little bit worried :06:

But it's early day still :03:

[hachiman]

I personally enjoyed SH3 out of the box. However i was very very annoyed AI wolfpacks weren't included. If you were in a Type VII from 1940-43 the wolfpack was whole basis of the Kreigsmarines strategy. To leave it out was such a sore one!!! However we were advised due to the problems of making AI routines etc and within the timescale it was not possible.

However this will be 5 years down the line and technologies have changed and i hope it makes it this time as to leave it out would be a travesty. They can ramp up the graphics all they want but a U-Boat sim without U-Boats in the same grid zone again would not impress me. However i'll still buy it on day one. :)

[Highbury]

I do not think they would have made an announcement which included new features without mentioning Wolfpacks if they were going to be in.

I don't have high hopes for them to be in SHV.

If we did get them, I imagine a forum full of crying that the AI hit all the big targets before you got a shot off, or scattered your convoy, or set them zig zagging... ended by declarations of "I am not radioing my convoys in anymore" etc etc. Anyone else see this coming? (I know some of us are more about the "war effort" then personal totals, but not many.)

[difool2]

Yep, I believe GWX was responsible for that? Although they cannot dive and attack only with the deck gun, it's great :up: Sometimes they succeed and when the player meets up with the convoy, some ships may be burning.

Yep-ran across just such a convoy, with several ships with holes, some on fire, and a straggling Nimijen tanker with a 30 degree list (which I finished off, natch).

Well, the Ubi announcement was rather short on specific details, so as more filter out hopefully we'll find out one way or another.

[gordonmull]

If we did get them, I imagine a forum full of crying that the AI hit all the big targets before you got a shot off, or scattered your convoy, or set them zig zagging... ended by declarations of "I am not radioing my convoys in anymore" etc etc. Anyone else see this coming? (I know some of us are more about the "war effort" then personal totals, but not many.)


I know what you're saying but that's immediately balanced by being able to get past the escorts because they're busy wasserbombing some other poor (AI) soul.

Plus, the reward system doesn't need to be about racking up points for the ships you've sunk yourself. If the points are spread between all boats in contact with the convoy then all personal gain players are then encouraged to make the effort. You might not tag a single merchant but still get points for taking part in the attack.

[pythos]

I think one of the problems with AI subs is when they dive, how deep do they go? This would be more of a factor for an AI enemy sub that is attacking you. Sure they could at first be at periscope depth, but what about when they want to avoid a torpedo solution from you being successful?

But when evading other ships, how deep to go without A0hitting the bottom, and B) going below crush depth.

These I think would cause quite a bit of headache when it comes to AI subs.

[JU_88]

I think one of the problems with AI subs is when they dive, how deep do they go? This would be more of a factor for an AI enemy sub that is attacking you. Sure they could at first be at periscope depth, but what about when they want to avoid a torpedo solution from you being successful?

But when evading other ships, how deep to go without A0hitting the bottom, and B) going below crush depth.

These I think would cause quite a bit of headache when it comes to AI subs.

NOt going below crush depth is easy, you just give them a max depth of say 160 - 200 m, just as aircraft have minimum altitude so they dont hit the sea.

However hitting the bottom at shallower depths would present a bigger challenge as the sub has to have a sensor to detect how deep the water is.
That is kinda already in place - the the player can order the CE to report depth under keel - so such a sensor already exsists, I dont know how it works, but it does.

Ai sub needs to be forced to do this check before they dive then respond in a predetermined way. for example:

if depth = 250 -1000 they can go to down to max depth
if depth = 110 - 249 they and go to 90
if depth = 50 -109 they go to 40
if depth = 0 - 49 they go no deeper than peri depth.

Abit tricky but not impossible, far more complex things have been programmed in the past.
No one expects it to be perfect - just reasonable.

[Mittelwaechter]

Do these AI Uboats have to 'exist'?

The imagination would be good enough for me.

Let the AI radio a convoy and when I'm close and in position I send my ok and the wolfpack leader orders to attack.

Or I radio the convoy position and have to shadow it. After a while I get response of two comrades at the other side of the convoy to be in position and I start the attack.

The convoy has some random chosen ships with 'torpedo damage function' - they'll be hit by 'magnetic eels of the imaginary comrades'.
Two DDs leave the screen and start to DC an area somewhere on the other side of the convoy...

I even scripted a single player mission like that (U42 Wolfpack) back in 2005. :DL

[Arclight]

NOt going below crush depth is easy, you just give them a max depth of say 160 - 200 m, just as aircraft have minimum altitude so they dont hit the sea.

However hitting the bottom at shallower depths would present a bigger challenge as the sub has to have a sensor to detect how deep the water is.
That is kinda already in place - the the player can order the CE to report depth under keel - so such a sensor already exsists, I dont know how it works, but it does.

Ai sub needs to be forced to do this check before they dive then respond in a predetermined way. for example:

if depth = 250 -1000 they can go to down to max depth
if depth = 110 - 249 they and go to 90
if depth = 50 -109 they go to 40
if depth = 0 - 49 they go no deeper than peri depth.

Abit tricky but not impossible, far more complex things have been programmed in the past.
No one expects it to be perfect - just reasonable.
Problem is depth-sounding is done with active sonar. An AI sub taking a depth reading regularly would alert any escorts in the area. ;)

I think it's a more realistic expectation to have wolfpacks in multiplayer only, I just don't think any AI is capable of effectively commanding a sub. :hmmm:

[Jaeger]

ia mnot very optimistic for seeing wolfpacks. the question for me is: why they didnt present it on the first feature list?

[Kaleun_Endrass]

Maybe they´re working on wolfpack AI but aren´t sure they get it done on time and so the feature isn´t listed yet... Stay optimistic.
The only thing we can do is begging UBI and the devs for wolfpack AI.
I would even accept another release date if necessary.

[Annatar]

Problem is depth-sounding is done with active sonar. An AI sub taking a depth reading regularly would alert any escorts in the area. ;)

I don't know why you think some kind of mystical intelligence is needed by the AI to run effectively. The game knows the depth of the ocean at any given point, that's part of the game after all, and anything the game knows can also be shared with the various entities inside the game. AI subs wouldn't have to be constantly pinging the seabed to know these things, they could just know.

I just don't think any AI is capable of effectively commanding a sub. :hmmm:

Why? The AI can quite easily command the various surface veseels. The problem is not and (I suspect) has never been AI routines, but rather with certain hard coded issuse - like spawning torpedo entities which always head North. (Or was it South?)

[Arclight]

You're missing the point; AI knowing the depth at any time is not simulating, and it's a sim after all. Btw it was a response to the mechanic proposed by JU_88. You're taking it out of contest.

Still; fair enough. Dangerous Waters has AI subs, for example. :hmmm:

*tbh, all I'm saying is don't expect it, but consider it a bonus if it's there. imho it's about realistic expectations, since any dicussion is besides the point untill we have confirmation whether or not wolfpacks are included.

[JU_88]

Do these AI Uboats have to 'exist'?

The imagination would be good enough for me.

Yes they need to actually exist :DL just like all the other units actually exist. If you are prepared to go down the 'imagination' route where do you stop?
Would you be ok if they scrapped aircraft or destoyers and we just 'imagined' there were there instead?

If I want some imagination, Ill just switch off the PC, sit in a dark corner 'imagining' being a Uboat comander :-?.

Problem is depth-sounding is done with active sonar. An AI sub taking a depth reading regularly would alert any escorts in the area.

I think it's a more realistic expectation to have wolfpacks in multiplayer only, I just don't think any AI is capable of effectively commanding a sub.

Come now, it not as if an AI sub has never been done before, as i said - far more complex thing have been coded than this, Ai subs need not be much more complicated that Ai for an aircraft in a flight sim.

In reply to your first point, I wasnt suggesting for a second that the Sub actually 'pings' the ocean floor. All that matters is that it can determine the depth. Just an aircraft can determine where the ground is with out needing to physically do anything special.

As you say above DW has AI subs, it is NOT an unrealistic expectation at all.
It is no more unrealistic than expecting a full 3d sub interior with crew going about their business. - that would have been much harder to code than a poxy AI sub.
(And they have managed that just fine.)

If not enough people support the inclusion of Wolf packs for SHV - or say they dont care - then no, the devs definatley wont bother....

[Arclight]

Yes they need to actually exist :DL just like all the other units actually exist. If you are prepared to go down the 'imagination' route where do you stop?
Would you be ok if they scrapped aircraft or destoyers and we just 'imagined' there were there instead?

If I want some imagination, Ill just switch off the PC, sit in a dark corner 'imagining' being a Uboat comander :-?.



Come now, it not as if an AI sub has never been done before, as i said - far more complex thing have been coded than this, Ai subs need not be much more complicated that Ai for an aircraft in a flight sim.

In reply to your first point, I wasnt suggesting for a second that the Sub actually 'pings' the ocean floor. All that matters is that it can determine the depth. Just an aircraft can determine where the ground is with out needing to physically do anything special.

As you say above DW has AI subs, it is NOT an unrealistic expectation at all.
It is no more unrealistic than expecting a full 3d sub interior with crew going about their business. - that would have been much harder to code than a poxy AI sub.
(And they have managed that just fine.)

If not enough people support the inclusion of Wolf packs for SHV - or say they dont care - then no, the devs definatley wont bother....
Airplanes, or rather pilots, can see the ground, subs/captains can't see the bottom. For a (AI) sub to determine depth, without cheating, it needs to use active sonar for depth sounding.

Why do people want wolfpacks/AI subs, but don't want them properly simulated? Is it more important to have wolfpacks/AI subs than an authentic, realistic simulation?

Yes, I'd like to see wolfpacks, all I'm saying is don't get your hopes up untill we have some official word. If it's really that simply as people suggest, they would have been there already.

[JU_88]

Dont matter if the Ai subs 'cheat' to determine depth,
The Escort/merchent AI cheats all the time anyway,
One example is that they can see you though land mass, and look at the speed at which they can 'stop' or accelarate when they need to avoid collision :)
Anyone remember the AIs 'Vampire vision' at night?

It doesn't need to be perfect, just so long as its THERE and works to a reasonable level.
- if need be modders can tweak it.

Id rather have AI subs that crash in to the ocean floor at shallow depths - than none at all.
At least you will get to see them working properly far out to sea (where the player will mostly be operating anyway.)

[DarkFish]

Airplanes, or rather pilots, can see the ground, subs/captains can't see the bottom. For a (AI) sub to determine depth, without cheating, it needs to use active sonar for depth sounding.yes, for an accurate depth determination, but don't forget we've got nav maps. If I see on my nav map I'm in shallow waters I don't set my depth to 300 m. So if we can guesstimate the depth ourselves, why would it be cheating if an AI sub did the same thing?

Besides I don't think it would be that hard to code. We've got controllers for merchants/DD's/BB's etc. already, take one of those and add a depth controller, e.g. as soon as the AI sub can pick up enemy sonar it dives to 200 m, when the AI can't hear any more ships on its hydrophones it resurfaces.

The problem is not and (I suspect) has never been AI routines, but rather with certain hard coded issuse - like spawning torpedo entities which always head North. (Or was it South?)nah, I don't think this is a big problem. They can spawn DC's and shells all heading into the right direction so why would it be so hard to do the same thing with torpedoes? calculating a right solution would be the only problem, but since the game has got code already for doing this for the player sub this shouldn't be too hard to overcome either.
Besides, I already solved the problem of AI launched torpedoes always heading north. check this thread: http://subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=154068. don't expect a wunderwaffe but at least they don't head north.

[h.sie]

The good old Aces of the Deep showed that it could not be so hard to program Ai-wolfpacks.

The gameplay of Aces and the graphics of SH3/4 and no bugs , that would be the ideal game for me.

[JU_88]

One more thing, for those players who are concerned that AI Uboats (Wolfpacks) will steal or deprive them of there kills, just consider this:

On the flip side, while the escorts are off depth charging an AI uboat - 3 km way, they will leave YOU to attack the unattended merchents while they are otherwise occupied. Not to mention that the AI Uboats might also take out an escort or two for themselves...:DL

Think possitive!

[hachiman]

If we beg, plead, harass, threaten, and then cut open our bellies then perhaps they might add this feature. :)

[Arclight]

Dont matter if the Ai subs 'cheat' to determine depth,
The Escort/merchent AI cheats all the time anyway,
One example is that they can see you though land mass, and look at the speed at which they can 'stop' or accelarate when they need to avoid collision :)
Anyone remember the AIs 'Vampire vision' at night?

It doesn't need to be perfect, just so long as its THERE and works to a reasonable level.
- if need be modders can tweak it.

Id rather have AI subs that crash in to the ocean floor at shallow depths - than none at all.
At least you will get to see them working properly far out to sea (where the player will mostly be operating anyway.)
Alright. Its the perfectionist in me that drives me to expect perfection. When scripting an airstrike in Arma for example, I dont spawn a plane in mid-air, have it fly over the target and then spawn a bomb on target. I put a plane in the mission at an airstrip, have it take off and make an actual bombing run at the target. Sure, its the end result that matters, but I dont consider shortcuts and AI cheating a good approach to solving a problem.

Better something flawed that works than something perfect that doesnt, I guess. :hmmm:

[JU_88]

Alright. Its the perfectionist in me that drives me to expect perfection. When scripting an airstrike in Arma for example, I dont spawn a plane in mid-air, have it fly over the target and then spawn a bomb on target. I put a plane in the mission at an airstrip, have it take off and make an actual bombing run at the target. Sure, its the end result that matters, but I dont consider shortcuts and AI cheating a good approach to solving a problem.

Better something flawed that works than something perfect that doesnt, I guess. :hmmm:

Ah cool, your an ArmA man, Respect!:salute:
I just finished the Harvest red Campaign in ArmA II, buggy as hell but the Manhatten mission was awesome, hope they patch it up properly though:D

Sorry for going OT....

[Lanzfeld]

Do these AI Uboats have to 'exist'?

The imagination would be good enough for me.

Let the AI radio a convoy and when I'm close and in position I send my ok and the wolfpack leader orders to attack.

Or I radio the convoy position and have to shadow it. After a while I get response of two comrades at the other side of the convoy to be in position and I start the attack.

The convoy has some random chosen ships with 'torpedo damage function' - they'll be hit by 'magnetic eels of the imaginary comrades'.
Two DDs leave the screen and start to DC an area somewhere on the other side of the convoy...

I even scripted a single player mission like that (U42 Wolfpack) back in 2005. :DL

This idea sounds the best to me. Why tax the system with complex A.I. when the end result (distracted DD's) is what we want?

Really.....and the response about imagination I dont think fits here because as a U-boat captain I would never really see or physically interact with my fellow U-boats in a wolfpack. All I am interested in is that there is SOME way to distract a portion of the screen so I can find a hole to attack. With respect to programming investment this makes the most sense to me.

[JU_88]

This idea sounds the best to me. Why tax the system with complex A.I. when the end result (distracted DD's) is what we want?

Really.....and the response about imagination I dont think fits here because as a U-boat captain I would never really see or physically interact with my fellow U-boats in a wolfpack. All I am interested in is that there is SOME way to distract a portion of the screen so I can find a hole to attack. With respect to programming investment this makes the most sense to me.

Well, i disagree (of course)
I gotta say that on the face of it, this sounds like it would actually be just as complicated as just giving some AI routines to Submarines - yet it would be no where near as good.:oops:

Might as well port the Virtual torpeedo mod instead, I feel that would actually offer better solution than the above suggestion - sorry. ;)

[difool2]

Problem is depth-sounding is done with active sonar. An AI sub taking a depth reading regularly would alert any escorts in the area. ;)

I think it's a more realistic expectation to have wolfpacks in multiplayer only, I just don't think any AI is capable of effectively commanding a sub. :hmmm:

I never played AOTD, but if that game, 15 years or so old now, could do something passable in that area no reason why Ubi couldn't do it now.

Let's see, basic functions needed for an effective sub AI:

1. Determine the safe maximum diving depth (as determined by the local depth as well as the sub's crush depth)-despite all the concerns put forth in this thread should be a piece of cake.

2. Determine when to dive (attacked by enemy-later in the war staying submerged and snorting occasionally to avoid planes).

3. Have several attack plans in place to choose from, depending on enemy force composition. This is likely the trickiest, as they would have to be "taught" how to infiltrate an escort screen, not something which is easy and obvious to do. Would include night surface attack functionality as well as using the deck gun vs. defenseless ships.

4. Firing torps accurately. Since this is mainly all about number crunching, should be easy to do. Includes deciding on salvo size. Perhaps, to compensate for #3, they (at least some 'ace' boats) can be super accurate, allowing shots from farther away (i.e. outside the screen).

5. Minor things, like knowing when you are bingo on fuel and have to RTB. If actually part of a wolfpack, knowing your place in the picket line as per BDU's orders.

Compared to the AI needed for like flight sims and such, I don't see anything which would be a bear to code, with like I said the possible exception of #3.

[SubV]

People, try to be realistic. Creating such complex A.I. as one that needs to control the wolfpack submarine _properly_ -- seem to be a very hard (impossible?) task. Such algorithm must act like a human mind in many cases.

I'll be more than glad if developers implement an imitation of wolfpack activity (random radio broadcasts, chance to meet a vessel that was damaged by another u-boat, etc).

[JU_88]

Me thinks we need stop comparing a Uboat under AI control to that of one under Human control.
We know its not going to be the same.
But it is workable and its is not unrealistic to expect a sub to be able to attack something.
Yes, expecting it shaddow a convoy and co-ordinate properly would be a lot to expect - I agree
But not for it to simply shoot at a target and then 'evade' that is all.

It is better than nothing, and better than so called 'imaginary wolfpacks' (*shudders in horror at the thought*)
It would also allow for encounters with enemy subs which would be a nice bonus.

We are not asking for the moon on stick here.

[Jimbuna]

But not for it to simply shoot at a target and then 'evade' that is all.


I'd certainly settle for that http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[mookiemookie]

People, try to be realistic. Creating such complex A.I. as one that needs to control the wolfpack submarine _properly_ -- seem to be a very hard (impossible?) task. Such algorithm must act like a human mind in many cases.

I'll be more than glad if developers implement an imitation of wolfpack activity (random radio broadcasts, chance to meet a vessel that was damaged by another u-boat, etc).

Why? Why would it be so hard? All it is is setting up a few "If/Then" rules.

"If a DD closes to within 5000 meters, dive"

"If a merchant ship is within 3000 meters and gyroangle is between 345 and 15, shoot"

"If DD begins attack, dive to 150 meters and go silent"

Not hard.

[SubV]

Why? Why would it be so hard? All it is is setting up a few "If/Then" rules.

"If a DD closes to within 5000 meters, dive"

"If a merchant ship is within 3000 meters and gyroangle is between 345 and 15, shoot"

"If DD begins attack, dive to 150 meters and go silent"

Not hard.
Ok. Now imagine a real combat when many things occur simultaneously.

"If one DD is within 5000 meters and second at 3500, beginning a search pattern. Enemy air units were spotted, all the merchant ships are performing evade manouevers. Third DD is just above, initiating a depth charge attack".

Then?

[TH0R]

Ok. Now imagine a real combat when many things occur simultaneously.

"If one DD is within 5000 meters and second at 3500, beginning a search pattern. Enemy air units were spotted, all the merchant ships are performing evade manouevers. Third DD is just above, initiating a depth charge attack".

Then?

I don't follow...?

This all can be moded and to a very good extent. The question is will devs have the time and resources.


IMHO, Atlantic theater without wolfpacks is an insult. This thing has put me off SHIII.

[mookiemookie]

Ok. Now imagine a real combat when many things occur simultaneously.

"If one DD is within 5000 meters and second at 3500, beginning a search pattern. Enemy air units were spotted, all the merchant ships are performing evade manouevers. Third DD is just above, initiating a depth charge attack".

Then?

Simple - prioritize rules by whatever presents the most danger at that point in time. In this case, the attacking DD.

[SubV]

I don't follow...?
Every existing A.I. lacks human ability to find best solution in complex environments with many variables.

Thus, making a good A.I. for wolfpacks is not possible.
Simple - prioritize rules by whatever presents the most danger at that point in time. In this case, the attacking DD.
Believe me, it's very hard to come even close to a working model of such priorities. Otherwise, we would have all kinds of computer controlled vehicles today (i.e. perfect car autopilots).

[JU_88]

Ok I'm really struggling to understand why some people think this is SO hard to achieve?

Is it because they are used to playing as the U-BOAT themselves - and therefore cant comprehend the AI managing to cope with the basics of this task?

Think back to the first ever flight sim, I wonder if the the initial suggestion to add 'AI controlled planes' was also dismissed and ridculed as "impossible / unreasonable"? :hmmm:
"Noooooo - its too complicated to code that"
The funny thing is that SH5 is far from being the 'first subsim', and AI subs have be done many times before!
(*bangs head on desk*)

[Crimguy]

I don't see what's so wrong with a few simplifications and "cheats" to allow for wolfpacks. Some things I believe are quite possible and probably fairly easy to implement:

1) Spotting by AI sub is easy.
2) Following a TF by a sub is also easy. A cheat could allow for a simple routine to have the boat stay a certain distance away, with a small chance of discovery for randomness.
3) Setting up the wolfpack for an attack is complicated, but the AI likely could set up the other subs based on your position. Better yet would be a radio or signal lamp communication to allow you to coordinate with them, either telling them where to go (to port or starboard of TF), or being told.
4) The attack by the uboats could be simplified without anyone knowing better, based on experience of AI captain, dud rate, and weather, for example.
5) Hunting/Evasion could be completely simplified. Some basic detection routines that have the SC's and DD's occupied on another target would suffice. The details of how the AI uboats live or die is inconsequential. What matters is how their actions effect your action.

Just my 2 kopeks.

[JU_88]

Every existing A.I. lacks human ability to find best solution in complex environments with many variables.

Thus, making a good A.I. for wolfpacks is not possible.

Believe me, it's very hard to come even close to a working model of such priorities. Otherwise, we would have all kinds of computer controlled vehicles today (i.e. perfect car autopilots).

What!?
Since when did we ask the Romanian Devs to build us a REAL LIFE computer controlled Uboat? :)
W'ere asking for an AI controlled 3d submarine model in a (ahem!) submarine game
You know? Like the the way they have;
AI cars in Driving games....
AI planes in flight sims....
AI Humans in First person shooters....

For the record we do have 'near perfect' computer controlled cars, boats, trains and planes -real ones :)
(do a google search on 'Global Hawk technology')

Anyway, it doesn't matter, since game engines & enviroments are nowhere near as complex as the real world.
(not yet anyway)

[AVGWarhawk]

What!?
Since when did we ask the Romanian Devs to build us a REAL LIFE computer controlled Uboat? :haha:
W'ere asking for an AI controlled 3d submarine model in a (ahem!) submarine game
You know? Like the the way they have;
AI cars in Driving games....
AI planes in flight sims....
AI Humans in First person shooters....

Am I making any sense at all? :06:

For the record we do have computer controlled cars, boats, trains and planes -real ones :)
but its really not the same thing at all....

Yes, there are a lot of computer controlled vehicles. Even nano-machines. Anyway, yes, computer AI simular to AI cars, planes, humans would work great in the is respect. There is no reason the AI could not be programmed to make approaches and attack. Hell, IL2 your AI wingman could be directed to do things. So could the subs in this game. :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Ok. Now imagine a real combat when many things occur simultaneously.

"If one DD is within 5000 meters and second at 3500, beginning a search pattern. Enemy air units were spotted, all the merchant ships are performing evade manouevers. Third DD is just above, initiating a depth charge attack".

Then?
Then you have a chance that the AI might make a mistake, just as you or I might. One of our subs was lost? Ouch!

I like the idea of the escort being off chasing another boat, giving me a chance to slip in and do some damage; but I also like the idea of the opposite occuring - having them chasing me away and having my soundman report explosions in the distance, indicating an opportunity taken by my comrades.

[Jimbuna]

Then you have a chance that the AI might make a mistake, just as you or I might. One of our subs was lost? Ouch!

I like the idea of the escort being off chasing another boat, giving me a chance to slip in and do some damage; but I also like the idea of the opposite occuring - having them chasing me away and having my soundman report explosions in the distance, indicating an opportunity taken by my comrades.

Precisely....and very achievable nowadays. All that is needed is for the devs to have the time and the permission/remit http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9425/praydl5rp5.gif

[AVGWarhawk]

Then you have a chance that the AI might make a mistake, just as you or I might. One of our subs was lost? Ouch!

I like the idea of the escort being off chasing another boat, giving me a chance to slip in and do some damage; but I also like the idea of the opposite occuring - having them chasing me away and having my soundman report explosions in the distance, indicating an opportunity taken by my comrades.


Hey...neat idea Steve! :rock:

[Arclight]

Then you have a chance that the AI might make a mistake, just as you or I might. One of our subs was lost? Ouch!

I like the idea of the escort being off chasing another boat, giving me a chance to slip in and do some damage; but I also like the idea of the opposite occuring - having them chasing me away and having my soundman report explosions in the distance, indicating an opportunity taken by my comrades.
An opportunity to get blown out of the water? :D

Seriously though, I really hope wolfpacks will make it in. I also really hope that if they do, not every attack degenerates into an uncoordinated mess, with more subs being lost than merchants sunk. :-?

If anyone can pull it off, its the guys at Ubi RO. :salute:

[Highbury]

Well hopefully SHV will have some of the larger convoys, 60 ships or so. That alone makes the Wolfpack prospect (IF we get it) far more exciting.

That would provide realistic sized gaps in the screen for the U-Boats to slip through. As it is now in SH3 and 4, you can't do a proper night surface attack as the men who did them in the war describe. The convoys are too small and too bunched up. Kretschmer talked of going between the rows of ships firing his deck gun at night. Try that in any SH game now :har:

That would make coding the AI subs behavior a bit easier as well.

[difool2]

I've played DW (and, before it, SC and 688i), but not as much as some other people. What were the AI issues in those games? The only thing I can think of is that you could typically detect them before they you, but that may reflect the relative quality of the 688 sensors vs. say the Akula's.

[dize]

idd the biggest deal/no deal thingie for me.
i realy like the sh4 graphics already. the increase in vision distance with one of the sh4 patches was also quite important.
bigger convoys, with like 30-40 merchants, plus the appropriate escort strength.
a better flying routine for airplanes, with the real low level attacks etc.
sub/bdu ai. any convoy scenario from 41 onwards without this, would be just poop. swamping the convoy screen, was the only real chance of breaking the defence. i stopped playing sh3/gwx because of this.

[Kaleun_Endrass]

swamping the convoy screen, was the only real chance of breaking the defence. i stopped playing sh3/gwx because of this.

Do you mean you stopped playing sh3/gwx because you had to sink the escorts to get to the merchants or do you mean reality?

[dize]

after the allies got their act together with their convoy escort system somewhere in early 42, it was highly unlikely for a single uboat, to just approach random convoy, overtake it, go to xxxm, and then go to peri depth and shoot some merchants, from inside escort screen.
combating a convoy from mid 42 onwards, was a rather elaborate affair, which required intense teamwork from many elements. search planes, b dienst, other uboats and the bdu. nothing of this is sufficiently represented in sh3, gwx or not. you are alone out there. its just doesnt feel anywhere the realy thing.

[Hitman]

The lack of wolfpacks is the biggest problem so far in the SH series. I have therefore always played careers only in those areas/times when wolfpacks were historically not available (Mediterranean, long range & coastal U-boats and late war), because as dize rightfully said, the historic attacks against convoys from 1941-1943 were in fact huge battles with lots of units involved. U-Boats converged from al around to the convoy reported and engaged it simultaneously, to wreak havoc in the escort screen. The tactic was developed by Dönitz as a response to the convoy system: "Concentrate defences require a concentrated attack". A single U-Boat against a full, well escorted convoy is ridiculous and doesn't stand many chances of doing real harm. Also, your surviving probabilities increase when the escorts must leave you and run to the convoy to keep protecting it. This is the reason why the hunter killers appeared late in the war,m when the allies had enough resources: To be able to chase the U-Boat until death and/or suffocation without having to protect any convoy at all.

[JScones]

Wah?

The largest number of U-boats that attacked a convoy was 51 boats (some sources say 41) from four wolfpacks against ONS-5 in April 1943. Not a regular occurance mind you.

The 42-ship convoy was escorted by a destroyer, frigate and 4 corvettes.

The end result: 12 ships sunk...7 U-boats lost.

Hardly what I'd call the wreaking of havoc.

Methinks some people may need to read up on actual Wolfpacks. http://uboat.net/ops/wolfpacks/ gives a nice summary of most (it's incomplete) of the wolfpacks including size and ships sunk. Some romanticists may find the stats surprising...

[dize]

ill take it that you dont wah and some ppl @ me, coz its basicly what i was trying to point out. :03:
submerged attacks, especialy in night/bad vis conditions where much harder to execute than in sh3. standart attack was still high speed surface approach when those big battles like ons-5 happened. to swamp the escort screen was the only way to get boats into firing position. most of the times...

[JU_88]

Wolf packs or not, just though thought of there being 'other subs' out there' (freindly & hostile) gets me all warm and fuzzy inside :DL

In SH 3 & 4 It felt so loney being only functional Submarine on the entire face of the planet. :wah:

[SubV]

Wolf packs or not, just though thought of there being 'other subs' out there' (freindly & hostile) gets me all warm and fuzzy inside :DL

In SH 3 & 4 It felt so loney being only functional Submarine on the entire face of the planet. :wah:
Agreed. All we need (in my opinion) is random imitation of wolfpack attacks and chance to occasionally meet another sub in the ocean (say hello, exchange food and fuel, write a record to captain's journal).

[Mittelwaechter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoys_HX_229/SC_122

[IanC]

Precisely....and very achievable nowadays. All that is needed is for the devs to have the time and the permission/remit http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9425/praydl5rp5.gif

Very achievable back in 1993. This is from subsim's own review of AOD; "You'll take a real beating. Occasionally in the career mode you'll be part of a wolf pack and some of the other U-boats will draw off some of the heat."
Now, somebody might say that programing wolfpacks nowadays is extremely complex, etc etc... But I still don't buy it. SHIII should've had wolfpacks and SHV must have them. I can't believe this very important feature will be omitted again.

[Crimguy]

If we have wolfpacks, we certainly need milk cows.

[JU_88]

If we have wolfpacks, we certainly need milk cows.

Milkcows proved modable in SH3, I even remember kit bashing a Type 14 modle out of the type 9 for GWX 2.0 lol.
It would be nice if the devs added some detail to the whole process of refueling and rearming with one. an nice little animation perhaps... no biggie though.
Oh an Sub Ai will just make Milkcows behave better if they come under attack.

Assuming an AI torpedo controller is made, i hope the devs will attatch it to Torpedo boats as well as Submarines. Anyone remember crapping them selves the first time they ran in to an Elco in SH3?
I was surpprised it didnt slam a torp into me, so fired up the mission editor and made an Entire Amarda of Elcos attack a hipper class cruiser (to see i they would sink it...)
meh, like constipated lambs to the slaughter, they didnt even make a dent. So like everyone - I just blasted Elcos with AA guns after that.
A real Sub captain would not have been so brave, the Royal Navy lost many Submarines in the Med, many at the hands of Italian PT boats.

That's what anoys me most about the lack of AI for Subs & torpedos, it bacially means that Silent Hunter is missing and entire chapter in WW2 maritime history.

[Lanzfeld]

It is very much possible to have AI wolfpacks.

My god. We sent a man to the moon in the 60's with the aid of an onboard computer that had less capability then the watch I am wearing!

I fly a large jet designed in the 70's that can autoland itself!

They can do AI wolfpacks!!!

[JScones]

Milkcows proved modable in SH3...
I would like to see milkcows/supply ships integrated into SH5. SH3 modders created a nice workaround, but having a milkcow docking be treated like the end of a patrol (with all damage fixed, patrol count incremented, NULL patrol grid reset etc) is a bit distracting.

Surely SH5 can implement another unit type with appropriate docking behaviours.

[Hitman]

Wah?

The largest number of U-boats that attacked a convoy was 51 boats (some sources say 41) from four wolfpacks against ONS-5 in April 1943. Not a regular occurance mind you.

The 42-ship convoy was escorted by a destroyer, frigate and 4 corvettes.

The end result: 12 ships sunk...7 U-boats lost.

Hardly what I'd call the wreaking of havoc.



As non-native english speaker I used incorrectly the expression "breaking havoc", but aside from that the wolfpack tactics were hugely important in that by keeping the convoy escort busy they opened gaps on it. In the early stages of the war, even a more or less simultaneous attack by just three or four boats was enough to allow for some chaos in the escrot screen. Schepke, Kretschmer, Prien, participated in some of those actions, sometimes benefitting (And sometimes getting in trouble because of that) from the busy convoy escorts.

The example you chose, ONS-5, is not a casual one. There were certainly more U-Boats than ever deployed against it, (though not all of them simultaneously) but what made the difference was the convoy running into a fog bank, which reversed the situation due to escorts having radar. Oh, and IIRC, ONS-5 only had its ordinary escort for some days, but later an additional support group was drawn from another convoy and increased the escort. BTW, ONS-5 was also the convoy that started the Black May.

Methinks some people may need to read up on actual Wolfpacks. http://uboat.net/ops/wolfpacks/ gives a nice summary of most (it's incomplete) of the wolfpacks including size and ships sunk. Some romanticists may find the stats surprising...

Like for example Michael Gannon's well documented "Black May", about how the allies defeated the U-Boats? And specifically dedicating several chapters to ONS-5?

I had readed it long before you ever heard about subsim.com or modding SH3 :salute:

[TigerOmega]

I played multiplayer in SH3. It was a lot of fun and kinda simple to create the scenario you wanted. If SHV doesn't have AI wolf packs it will be multiplayer for me.
I just hope they include the mission editor.

[longam]

Even in Falcon 4 you flew in formation with 3 other AI. They followed your lead, flew at your alt, and would span out or close up by your command. They could even change formation and would not attack until given the order to do so.

I see this as a bases on a basic wolf pack AI and is very possible to do.

[thruster]

ok, i know nothing about programing but i just dont see how this could be a drama?
in reality one boat rarely ever saw another, so dont bother with that. i see it as manipulating random events.
-you radio a sighted convoy. random radio traffic appears. sometime later a random attack hits a section of the convoy [a ship blows up, and escorts DC that section of water for awhile]. the more you risk radioing in contacts potentially more random hits occur.
-or you get an initial contact report, acknowledge that you are going. other random callsigns do same. you then get random hits on the convoy from different areas and scattering the escorts.
-you could even have the escorts randomly generate a DC attack on a section of convoy perimeter that you dont even know about. it could attract you to the convoy in the first place, as well as having escorts dispersed when you get there.

how hard is that????

[JU_88]

ok, i know nothing about programing but i just dont see how this could be a drama?
in reality one boat rarely ever saw another, so dont bother with that. i see it as manipulating random events.
-you radio a sighted convoy. random radio traffic appears. sometime later a random attack hits a section of the convoy [a ship blows up, and escorts DC that section of water for awhile]. the more you risk radioing in contacts potentially more random hits occur.
-or you get an initial contact report, acknowledge that you are going. other random callsigns do same. you then get random hits on the convoy from different areas and scattering the escorts.
-you could even have the escorts randomly generate a DC attack on a section of convoy perimeter that you dont even know about. it could attract you to the convoy in the first place, as well as having escorts dispersed when you get there.

how hard is that????

Well to be totally honest, it sounds like a recipe for bugs, Imho - to give actual AI to submarines instead would:

1) Acheive the same Wolfpack effect for virtually the same amount of work. (Your proposal is not all far off from being an AI sub with no 3d model attached.)

2) Adds the realsim of the Subs physicial existance - rather than being virtual.

3) Allow for encounters, interception & engament with Enermy subs, even if the devs dont include any models for Non-German sub types - we can!

4) it would help pave the way for a Destoyer command addon or mod.

5) Allow the player to see friendly subs traveling to and from port

6) Allow for properly behaved Milchows (resupply Uboats)

7) Allows the player to embark on side missions where they could Aid another U-boat in distress.

8) Allow for the construction of an Ai topedo controller that can also be attached to surface vessles like the 'impotent' PT boat.


So there you have it- Sub Ai is not just for 'Wolf packs' it also fixes a great number of shotcomings that plagued in Sh3 & 4 -that listed above is already adds like 10% more game than the pervious. installment.

[Grothesj2]

Even in Falcon 4 you flew in formation with 3 other AI. They followed your lead, flew at your alt, and would span out or close up by your command. They could even change formation and would not attack until given the order to do so.

I see this as a bases on a basic wolf pack AI and is very possible to do.
Heck, look at IL-2 with even more aircraft buzzing around and shooting at each other, all in three dimensions with AA fire and targets, bomb strikes, machinegun fire from fighters and bombers, rockets.....

No way I'll believe that they can't come up with a passable AI for friendly subs. AI doesn't even have to be exceptionally good as how many U-boat captains were wasted on thier first or second patrol? A novice and veteran U-boat captain AI setting should be fine for the AI and niether as crafty as a live player. You are after all supposed to be the star U-boat ace in the game.

[java`s revenge]

Heck, look at IL-2 with even more aircraft buzzing around and shooting at each other, all in three dimensions with AA fire and targets, bomb strikes, machinegun fire from fighters and bombers, rockets.....

No way I'll believe that they can't come up with a passable AI for friendly subs. AI doesn't even have to be exceptionally good as how many U-boat captains were wasted on thier first or second patrol? A novice and veteran U-boat captain AI setting should be fine for the AI and niether as crafty as a live player. You are after all supposed to be the star U-boat ace in the game.

You are right.
For example the ai in IL2 was very good.
But when you take an exemple of Red Orchestra, they are
very dumb.

But i indeed think that it would be possible.

[tomoose]

Do these AI Uboats have to 'exist'?

The imagination would be good enough for me.

Let the AI radio a convoy and when I'm close and in position I send my ok and the wolfpack leader orders to attack.

Or I radio the convoy position and have to shadow it. After a while I get response of two comrades at the other side of the convoy to be in position and I start the attack.

The convoy has some random chosen ships with 'torpedo damage function' - they'll be hit by 'magnetic eels of the imaginary comrades'.
Two DDs leave the screen and start to DC an area somewhere on the other side of the convoy...

I even scripted a single player mission like that (U42 Wolfpack) back in 2005. :DL

BINGO! Well said Mittelwaechter! I couldn't agree more. As long as the effect of the Wolfpack is simulated I'm sold (i.e. the convoys react to a NPC U-boat and can be attacked by a NPC U-boat etc while you are trying to link up and join the fray). No requirement for anything else regarding Wolfpacks except the comms to and fro between the U-boats (while surfaced obviously) to zero in on contacts etc. No fancy graphics really required at all except for eye candy.

[JU_88]

BINGO! Well said Mittelwaechter! I couldn't agree more. As long as the effect of the Wolfpack is simulated I'm sold (i.e. the convoys react to a NPC U-boat and can be attacked by a NPC U-boat etc while you are trying to link up and join the fray). No requirement for anything else regarding Wolfpacks except the comms to and fro between the U-boats (while surfaced obviously) to zero in on contacts etc. No fancy graphics really required at all except for eye candy.


Sure, but please consider this:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1159860&postcount=75

[Wild_skipper]

You want wolfpacks : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQLsgFcMH5A <---- there you go wolfpacks ! ( it even contains an interview with karl dönitz after the war lol )

[Arclight]

Thanks, that was an hour well spend. :salute:

[Platapus]

I don't see what the enjoyment would be in wolfpacks. Watching an AI controlled submarine sink ships is not my idea of a fun game.

I want to set up and sink ships! :arrgh!:

Imagine how pissed you would be if you were trying to set up a shot and some AI sub sunk it first? :damn::damn:

However, gamers are different. I think the gamers who want wolfpacks should have them. As long as I can turn them off I have no problems.

It is the "lone wolf" aspect of submarine warfare that appeals to me. I don't want to be just number 1 of 4.

[longam]

You want wolfpacks : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQLsgFcMH5A <---- there you go wolfpacks ! ( it even contains an interview with karl dönitz after the war lol )

Great show...:up:

Looks like wolf packs were only effective early on, just like the uboat itself.

[difool2]

I don't see what the enjoyment would be in wolfpacks. Watching an AI controlled submarine sink ships is not my idea of a fun game.

I want to set up and sink ships! :arrgh!:

Imagine how pissed you would be if you were trying to set up a shot and some AI sub sunk it first? :damn::damn:

I'd be pleased that my teammate helped us win the battle if not the war. Your attitude would probably get you bounced out of the captaincy ASAP (or result in you not getting it in the first place).

[JU_88]

It not all just about wolf packs, hostile submarines could also make for very intense and interesting battle situations....

Dont belive me? please watch this video about HMS Ventura (British) U-class submarine Sinking U-864 (Type IX D2)
While both vessels were submerged

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNiyO6ZV0CU
Id trade a convoy of Tankers for an SHV moment like this any day...:salute:

[tomoose]

Sure, but please consider this:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1159860&postcount=75
Actually I think that helps prove my point. Adding "physical" AI subs would definitely be a recipe for more bugs and performance hits as opposed to "virtual" AI subs contrary to what is stated in the link. Perhaps the devs could make that an option to switch on or off depending on your system (now that would be nice to have!!!):hmmm:

1) Acheive the same Wolfpack effect for virtually the same amount of work. (Your proposal is not all far off from being an AI sub with no 3d model attached.)I highly doubt the same amount of work. If you're adding 'physical' objects then you're program/system takes a hit.

2) Adds the realsim of the Subs physicial existance - rather than being virtual. Who cares? Realistically you'd almost never see your Wolfpack colleagues.

3) Allow for encounters, interception & engament with Enermy subs, even if the devs dont include any models for Non-German sub types - we can!
HMS Ventura notwithstanding that was a very rare occurrence in the war and IMHO not worth considering for SH5.

4) it would help pave the way for a Destoyer command addon or mod. This I would agree with wholeheartedly.

5) Allow the player to see friendly subs traveling to and from portThis was achieved in SH3 already and IMHO is still only eye candy

6) Allow for properly behaved Milchows (resupply Uboats) This makes sense and is an easy fix as it was simulated in SH3

7) Allows the player to embark on side missions where they could Aid another U-boat in distress. OK, but seriously, not a huge part of the overall game.

8) Allow for the construction of an Ai topedo controller that can also be attached to surface vessles like the 'impotent' PT boat. This is a seperate issue altogether and I don't see it being linke to the virtual wolfpack issue at all. Completely different programming aspect of the game.

[JU_88]

In Orange....


:DActually I think that helps prove my point. Adding "physical" AI subs would definitely be a recipe for more bugs and performance hits as opposed to "virtual" AI subs contrary to what is stated in the link. Perhaps the devs could make that an option to switch on or off depending on your system (now that would be nice to have!!!):hmmm:

1) Acheive the same Wolfpack effect for virtually the same amount of work. (Your proposal is not all far off from being an AI sub with no 3d model attached.)I highly doubt the same amount of work. If you're adding 'physical' objects then you're program/system takes a hit.

So you program a random Trigger to myseriouly blow up ships? then fool the AI Escorts to go and depth charging them, then some how the Ai need to know when to stop Depthchageing nothing?
Its going look very silly if it happens 2- 3000 meters away, when you have external cam enabled (maybe you dont). The whole thing will look very strange - like a huge bug in itself to most players.

to the second point -Rubbish! :D -an extra one or two Uboat models on the scene would make NO noticable hit to 3d performance whatsoever.
Have you seen this happen in SH3 or 4? with an extra two ships or and extra two docked subs in a port? I urge you to run a Fraps test as proof of this.
Or are you saying the addional AI scripts will somehow slow the game down? That would be a first in video games......

2) Adds the realsim of the Subs physicial existance - rather than being virtual. Who cares? Realistically you'd almost never see your Wolfpack colleagues.
Some truth in that,yes but dont forget about the external camera which MOST people use.

3) Allow for encounters, interception & engament with Enermy subs, even if the devs dont include any models for Non-German sub types - we can!
HMS Ventura notwithstanding that was a very rare occurrence in the war and IMHO not worth considering for SH5.NOt that rare - Allied submarines sunk
Granted that was the only recorded submerged battle, but encounters were not that rare, Especially in the Mediterenian which was heavily patrolled by subs of both sides.

19 Uboats were destroyed by Allied Submarines.
http://uboat.net/fates/sub-sunk.htm (http://uboat.net/fates/sub-sunk.htm)
Only 4 'British subs' were destroyed by U-Boats, (not including other nations)
But consider how many more encounters and unsuccessfull attacks there were between subs on top of this.
It would 'on occacsion' present a more interesting tatical situation- than the usual merchant/escort scenario.

4) it would help pave the way for a Destoyer command addon or mod. This I would agree with wholeheartedly.
No argument

5) Allow the player to see friendly subs traveling to and from portThis was achieved in SH3 already and IMHO is still only eye candy
Achieved by 'Modders' yes,

6) Allow for properly behaved Milchows (resupply Uboats)This makes sense and is an easy fix as it was simulated in SH3
Again, more modding work and it was far from perfect.

7) Allows the player to embark on side missions where they could Aid another U-boat in distress. OK, but seriously, not a huge part of the overall game.
No it is not - agreed, but again as with point 3), dont you want some rare some occorances on patrol to make things less samey?

8) Allow for the construction of an Ai topedo controller that can also be attached to surface vessles like the 'impotent' PT boat. This is a seperate issue altogether and I don't see it being linke to the virtual wolfpack issue at all. Completely different programming aspect of the game.
Yes it separate, but without AI submarines In SH3 & 4 the Devs had no incentive to make one - so the two are 'entwined'. however I am fairly confident they will have made one for this version. (touch wood)

.

[Arclight]

My eyes, it hurts!!! :dead:

[JU_88]

lol, sorry Arclight, is that better now? :DL

[Arclight]

Yeah, I just put on some sunglasses, helps too. :cool: :salute:

[Jimbuna]

Let us not forget AI Allied subs.....or playable would be even better :DL

[The General]

The only way to realistically do Wolfpacks is through Multiplayer mode. Sorry, but that's a fact.

[THE_MASK]

Maybe a randomly generated wolf pack with a slight chance but only for convoys over a certain large size .

[SubV]

We sent a man to the moon in the 60's with the aid of an onboard computer that had less capability then the watch I am wearing.
A real (often called 'strong') A.I. has nothing in common with computing. There's still no robots and intelligent machines around us. Most computer scientists now think that creating such machines is an impossible task.

We don't want wolfpacks, we just don't want to feel that we're alone there. Dynamic communications and reports, radio messages from other boats and from the sinking ships, orders that make sense from BdU, weather reports from the entire ocean, that's what wolpacks were all about.
Exactly.

Give a player control of 10+ wolfpack submarines? Probably not a good idea at all. I don't like the idea of converting SH into real-time strategy game.

[Mittelwaechter]

As far as I know most U-boats sunk by allied submarines were not sunk in a dogfight but with the same tactics the U-Boats sunk allied merchants: sit in the dark and wait until the bait shows up- then hit and run.

Imagine sailing from Lorient in 1941 and 60 km west you get a sudden death screen: hit by torpedo. I'd love it!

Real wolfpack AI torpedos would even be a threat to the player's U-boat.
Again the screen: hit by torpedo.

Btw - I'm sure it is not an affair for the pros to script U-boat and torpedo AI.
But I'd prefer to see torpedo bombers attacking convoys in the Mediterranean or in the Channel and DDs laying mines of the British east coast.
Rare events should not be modelled - like sub on U-Boat dogfight or sinking fishtrawlers in the black sea with handgranades...

[Badger Finn]

The good old Aces of the Deep showed that it could not be so hard to program Ai-wolfpacks.

The gameplay of Aces and the graphics of SH3/4 and no bugs , that would be the ideal game for me.

Yep yep and yep !!!

:yep:

[JScones]

I had readed it long before you ever heard about subsim.com or modding SH3 :salute:
Had you? I'm impressed that you know when I first heard about subsim.com and modding SH3. Although I'm perplexed as to what bearing either has on having a knowledge of the U-boat War. Fortunately I don't feel the need to stroke my ego the same way and attempt further "oneupmanship".

Frankly, a poor attempt at rebuttal, and one that instantly loses my respect. :down:

[Rosencrantz]

I belive in Wolfpacks. Why? Because UBI already gave us co-operative surface ships and planes in IV. I think that was just an exercise for something else. I'm also sure we won't get 50+ boat packs, but just little ones with few subs. But even that would be better than nothing. And why then they are so silent on it? Propably because there is still some problems waiting for solution.

And I might be wrong too, as usually.


Greetings,
-RC-

[Hitman]

I'm impressed that you know when I first heard about subsim.com and modding SH3

Subsim.com is online since 1997, so you would not have heard about it before. That was the idea behind that comment, though you obviously didn't get it.

To the rest of your post, i.e. the personal remarks, I'll make my comments per PM.

[Webster]

To the rest of your post, i.e. the personal remarks, I'll make my comments per PM.


thank you

[Sailor Steve]

The only way to realistically do Wolfpacks is through Multiplayer mode. Sorry, but that's a fact.
No, it's not a fact, it's an opinion. In fact, multiplayer is probably the least realistic way to do a wolfpack.

Unless the players can't talk to each other and have no idea what each other are doing.

Also, it's very difficult to have a multiplayer campaign. In real life your sub might be called to assist with its pack, only to find itself in the wrong position. Sometimes packs were able to attack as a unit, and sometimes they ended up attacking one by one as the convoy passed their strung-out positions. That kind of variability is only available in a single-player campaign.

I would like to get radio reports later on what u-boat claimed what type of kill, but information related to a pack attack would only be know fully after the patrol was over.

[Arclight]

At least the comm issue can be resolved with in-game communication, only allowing surfaced boats to talk with each other. Imho wolfpacks can be done realistically in MP if the proper structure is in place, probably better than with AI in SP. :hmmm:

[JU_88]

We had Mutiplayer wolf packs in SH3 and Sh4.... Im suggesting we make advance? :timeout:
IMHO, Mutiplayer is totally irrelivent to this thread.

[Webster]

well my take on a good way to do wolfpacks is they should be like in sh4 where you call in air support but here you call in supporting subs in the area (the wolfpack) and give them a waypoint and time to meet up. if successfull you get renown bonus for a coordinated attack where you get partial credit for the tonnage sunk by the wolfpack to add to your own sinkings.

you can also get sent to these arranged ambush points but if you didnt arrange it you dont get any extra renown for what the wolfpack does

[Platapus]

No, it's not a fact, it's an opinion.

On internet forums, the terms seem to be interchangeable it seems.
:D

[Takeda Shingen]

No, it's not a fact, it's an opinion. In fact, multiplayer is probably the least realistic way to do a wolfpack.

I have always thought multiplayer to be a poor representation of reality in general, or at least when it comes to submarine simulations. Frankly, I don't understand the zeal for it.

[difool2]

Also, it's very difficult to have a multiplayer campaign. In real life your sub might be called to assist with its pack, only to find itself in the wrong position. Sometimes packs were able to attack as a unit, and sometimes they ended up attacking one by one as the convoy passed their strung-out positions. That kind of variability is only available in a single-player campaign.

I would like to get radio reports later on what u-boat claimed what type of kill, but information related to a pack attack would only be know fully after the patrol was over.

Simple remedy for all the chit-chat: Huff-Duff equipped Allied ships who will home in on your signal if you are too profligate with the radio, just as they did in real life.