It will be the end of the Democrats as a Party

[GoldenRivet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[sunvalleyslim]

GoldenRivet,
You are so right. If you have your own HealthCare Insurance plan you need to be worried. This is for the uninsured, but if you do have your own plan it will be taken away........that is you will be forced to accept The National Plan.
I have a house in Mexico. I have a FM-3 card (legal residence). It entitles me to free medical care in Mexico. The Mexican citizens I have known for 20 years do not use their own free nationalized medicine. They all go to their own doctors, and pay cash for good medical treatment. They do not trust nationalized medicine. So that has shown to me that it does'nt work.
If you have your own medical plan, please, please voice your own opinion in this regard. It will do no good for our society to be subugated to a lower standard. Merely MHO.....SVS

[OneToughHerring]

GoldenRivet,
You are so right. If you have your own HealthCare Insurance plan you need to be worried. This is for the uninsured, but if you do have your own plan it will be taken away........that is you will be forced to accept The National Plan.
I have a house in Mexico. I have a FM-3 card (legal residence). It entitles me to free medical care in Mexico. The Mexican citizens I have known for 20 years do not use their own free nationalized medicine. They all go to their own doctors, and pay cash for good medical treatment. They do not trust nationalized medicine. So that has shown to me that it does'nt work.
If you have your own medical plan, please, please voice your own opinion in this regard. It will do no good for our society to be subugated to a lower standard. Merely MHO.....SVS

Maybe having a health care system that works is just too difficult a task for Americans, United Staters and Mexicans both. Something that has been the norm for us Finns since as long as I know is just too overwhelmingly difficult to Americans. Maybe it really is so and we should all just let it rest at that, forever. :)

[antikristuseke]

Oth, to be frank, the scales at which yo are dealing with are different. The larger the target the more difficult it is to get a large scale universal system to work efficently, for countries the size of Sweden, Finland and Estonia it is relatively easy to get a universal healthcare system to function, for something larger, not so much. Though I am fairly certain it can be done, and should, it is not quite as clear cut or simple as you seem to make it out to be.

[GoldenRivet]

i agree that something needs to be done to tweak our health care system.

this is not it however.

a man should not have to wait 3 days to be treated for a Broken Collar bone!!! :o

give me a GD break :nope:

my two main questions are this:

1. Why WHY are the democrats in such a mad ass hurry to push this thing through?

2. Where does it benefit them??? do they have money tied up in something thats going to make them all rich if this monstrosity passes?

all real Americans, all responsible Americans need to step back and look at the big picture here... what are they not telling us? and whats the rush???

the two immediate effects i see if this thing is passed.

1. Americans will riot... or in the very least flock to DC in anger and protest.

2. The Republicans will win the next majority.

[Kapt Z]

Interesting video. Not any more objective than Michael Moore's films but interesting.

Reminded me of some of my experiences with our great healthcare system here in the US of A.:yeah:

Like the time the emergency room doctor asked me to look at a x-ray and guess if it was of my hand(which I had injured) because they forgot to label the film and were not sure who's hand it was. He wasn't joking.

Like the time I was sent to the ER in a ambulance for severe stomach pain and was still on the gurney, in the hallway, unseen by a doctor, 5 hrs later.

Like the time my 20 month old daughter was sent to the ER for severe dehydration and after 4 nurses and 3 doctors failed to get a IV started. They shrugged and said, "We can't do anything for her, just take her home and do the best you can."

Like the time my medical insurance company refused to pay for my new born daughter's stay in the hospital. She was born 2 months premature. They said her stay in intensive care was 'unnecessary'.

Like the time the same insurance company offered to pay $2.50 for a $3,500.00+ hospital bill for treatment of my daughter by her doctor who was a participating physician in their plan.

On and on and on. And these were all different hospitals. And we had insurance!:damn:

I don't know if national healthcare is the answer or not, but certainly things ain't rosy as they are. That's enough to keep me open to suggestions.

BO made healthcare reform one of his campaign pledges. Funny that we should be suprised he actually intends keep it.

[GoldenRivet]

Where in God's name within the United States do you live?

[FIREWALL]

Maybe having a health care system that works is just too difficult a task for Americans, United Staters and Mexicans both. Something that has been the norm for us Finns since as long as I know is just too overwhelmingly difficult to Americans. Maybe it really is so and we should all just let it rest at that, forever. :)

Next you'll be telling us , sh!t tastes like chocalate icecream. :haha:

[GoldenRivet]

Next you'll be telling us , sh!t tastes like chocalate icecream. :haha:

Rocky Road

[mookiemookie]

1. Why WHY are the democrats in such a mad ass hurry to push this thing through?

http://images.theweek.com/dir_27/the_week_13895_27.jpg

[Kapt Z]

Where in God's name within the United States do you live?

Those incidents happened over a span of about 20 years. They took place in hospitals in NY, PA and NJ. The insurance company was a nationwide carrier.

My family has actually received excellent medical care for the most part over those years, but my point was anyone can have horrible experiences no matter what the system.

[SteamWake]

BO made healthcare reform one of his campaign pledges. Funny that we should be suprised he actually intends keep it.

Thats funny I seem to recall that was Hillary's platform and Barry did his best to avoid it after he saw how people reacted to it.

Of course once your in office its another matter.

[Onkel Neal]

Like the time my medical insurance company refused to pay for my new born daughter's stay in the hospital. She was born 2 months premature. They said her stay in intensive care was 'unnecessary'.

Like the time the same insurance company offered to pay $2.50 for a $3,500.00+ hospital bill for treatment of my daughter by her doctor who was a participating physician in their plan.

On and on and on. And these were all different hospitals. And we had insurance!:damn:



What insurance company would that be?


Re: the video, I'm not sure how strong this guy's point it. Our clinics and doctor offices are usually closed on weekends too (aren't they?) and our e-rooms are packed, with insane long waits too -- mainly because the hospital will not refuse care to illegal aliens and people with no insurance and who refuse to pay--the e-room is their "family doctor".

What we need is to go to having state hospitals manned by volunteer profressionals and funded by people who are so gung ho about universal health care for those who will not pay, and leave the private hospitals for people who pay and for professionals who want to be compensated properly. Let's see how that works :D

[mookiemookie]

mainly because the hospital will not refuse care to illegal aliens and people with no insurance and who refuse to pay--the e-room is their "family doctor".



While this may be true, one misconception I keep seeing is that if you go to the emergency room with no insurance they don't just treat you and say "No insurance? Oh well, I guess you don't have to pay! See ya!" They do bill you, and it's quite pricey. I know from experience.

[SUBMAN1]

I've been preaching this on this forum for so many years. I've seen their health care and honestly, I think these guys were treated better than even what I've seen. The nurses must have liked them.

This kind of health care in the states is the very LAST thing Americans want. It's terrible. My mother-in-law would be alive today I think if they had our health care, but on the Canadian system, she is now no longer with us.

Anyone that wants this universal plan in my opinion is a complete idiot.

-S

[SteamWake]

While this may be true, one misconception I keep seeing is that if you go to the emergency room with no insurance they don't just treat you and say "No insurance? Oh well, I guess you don't have to pay! See ya!" They do bill you, and it's quite pricey. I know from experience.

The point is that you do recieve care and quite often 'cash' paying clients pay a smaller bill.

They bill you in good faith more or less 'hoping' that you will pay your debt.

[Platapus]

They also follow up as The Frau's "adult" daughter found out. The kid thought that because she did not have insurance that she could just go to the ER and "forget" to pay the bill. :nope:

She has to appear in court later this month where she will most likely have her future wages garnished to pay for her ER bill. :up:

So yeah, the hospitals are going after people who don't pay their bills.. and good for them. There is no more "hope they will pay" They are going after the non-payers. :up:

[SteamWake]

They also follow up as The Frau's "adult" daughter found out. The kid thought that because she did not have insurance that she could just go to the ER and "forget" to pay the bill. :nope:

She has to appear in court later this month where she will most likely have her future wages garnished to pay for her ER bill. :up:

So yeah, the hospitals are going after people who don't pay their bills.. and good for them. There is no more "hope they will pay" They are going after the non-payers. :up:

But in the case of an illegal ailen the phrase "Blood from a stone" comes to mind.

[mookiemookie]

But in the case of an illegal ailen the phrase "Blood from a stone" comes to mind.

People bleeding to death in the street is a better alternative?

[SteamWake]

People bleeding to death in the street is a better alternative?

Now how do you get here from there?

I was saying that care is given with the 'hope' that they will be payed, as opposed to turning them away and letting them bleed to death in the street.

Honestly :nope:

[Platapus]

People bleeding to death in the street is a better alternative?

that is a real good point.

It is easy to type real tough on an internet forum. But will the American people have the stomach to see people literally dying in the gutter. Not locked away where they can die without upsetting little Junior or Sally, but right there in the street.

Or walking past lines of people begging for money to be able to buy the medication for their children or spouse.

That is what will happen if this country adopts the attitude of "if you can't afford healthcare tough". People won't suddenly stop getting sick/injured. :nope: The result will be sick and injured people not getting medical care.

What will happen if a father has a very sick child and can't afford health care.... and he has a gun? What would you do if your daughter was dying and you could not afford health care and the country was telling you "hey father, we can't care for your dying daughter but we are sure you recognize that it is better for everyone else if your daughter dies."? I bet many of us would do "anything" to save our daughter/son.

What would be the cost to our society then?

I don't know what the solution is. I don't know if the proposed health plans are the solution either. But I am confident that the solution is not "no cash, no medical care". There has to be a better way than just letting people die in the gutter. I hope we have come a long way from the 19th century in this.

[Task Force]

I think that the healthcare should be offered to people who need it, and If you dont need it, then you keep you current plan or keep your current plan if you want, this is america, we should have a choice.

so people who have health care (ex there job provides it.)

[Fish]

My mother-in-law would be alive today I think if they had our health care, but on the Canadian system, she is now no longer with us.

Anyone that wants this universal plan in my opinion is a complete idiot.

-S

Yeah?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Life_Expectancy_2008_Estimates_CIA_World_Fact book.png

[Onkel Neal]

While this may be true, one misconception I keep seeing is that if you go to the emergency room with no insurance they don't just treat you and say "No insurance? Oh well, I guess you don't have to pay! See ya!" They do bill you, and it's quite pricey. I know from experience.

Ah, but it's only pricey if you actually fork over the $$$

Otherwise, it amounts to the same thing as "No insurance? Oh well, I guess you don't have to pay! See ya!"

Unless things have changed and they can garnish your wages to pay for it. Can they?



Anyone that wants this universal plan in my opinion is a complete idiot.

-S
Maybe but this discussion will go a lot smoother if you don't start calling people idiots. You know there are people waiting to throw that right back and raise the ante.

[Aramike]

Unless things have changed and they can garnish your wages to pay for it. Can they? Sure they can garnish after getting a court judgement ... but someone needs a job with an actual paycheck to get their pay docked.

[mookiemookie]

They can and will send the collection agencies after you, that's for sure.

[Onkel Neal]

Hmm...then things have changed, I took some renters to court a few years back, won the case, paid the $30 for a judgment and that was the end of it. There was no way to make them pay their debt owed.

But again, collection agencies, judgements, probably don't have much of an impact.

Evil hospitals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFVsHxwK9hU) :stare:

.

[Skybird]

For a change, see how the internal American civil war II about Obama's health care plans is perceived from some other civilised places in the West. To us, it looks like a dirty war both by regional politicians and republicans in general in order to damage the president - no matter the cost, and - pure hysteria. This German article describes the impression it leaves with us over here. It's a mud-throwing like I have not seen any since longer time. Again: not so much the reform is the trigger, but attacking it is only a tool - a tool to do maximum damage to Obama for the sake of damaging Obama.

http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article4288068/Schmutziger-Kampf-gegen-Obamas-Reform.html?print=yes#reqdrucken

The American democracy, despite it's obvious flaws in design that after WWII more and more got exploited and sold the nation to lobbyism and an economic elite hijacking it alltogether, nevertheless once was one of only few examples in the world that was admired by people in all the world for it's political culture and inner mechanisms - and all in all it was rightfully admired, becasue after adding all the positves and negatives in the end a relatively high ammount of justice was achieved. But what is happening there now in destroying the presidency at no matter a cost for the political culture, and with all mean and dirty tools available - that is not that once admired example people looked up to. This it is not.

[mookiemookie]

Again: not so much the reform is the trigger, but attacking it is only a tool - a tool to do maximum damage to Obama for the sake of damaging Obama.

I'd say you're correct with your analysis.

[CaptainHaplo]

I can't read german - but I get the gist of what your saying on here. The key here is that this isn't just Obama - this is more Reid and Pelosi actually - the President is just the voice pushing - they are the power pushing.

Whats amazing is that you indicate that "the politics of personal destruction" is new for American politics. Its not - not by a long shot.

Pretty much refer back to Reagan. From that time forward, there has been some type of personal destruction attempts. Bush senior escaped a major one, mainly because the Dems failed to bring down Reagan with Iran/Contra. That was the first big push. Then you had the Reps trying the same with Clinton over Lewinsky and real estate deals. Then the Dems tried again with Bush using the war, 9/11 whacko theories, etc.

Honestly, there has not been a push to attack Obama to bring him down, what has occured has been simply a debate over what this country needs regarding health care. Just because the majority of media wants to make it about their annointed one instead of that fact that MOST voters oppose this plan, is just another example of how the majority of media is a willing tool of the left.

[Skybird]

I can't read german - but I get the gist of what your saying on here. The key here is that this isn't just Obama - this is more Reid and Pelosi actually - the President is just the voice pushing - they are the power pushing.

Whats amazing is that you indicate that "the politics of personal destruction" is new for American politics. Its not - not by a long shot.

Pretty much refer back to Reagan. From that time forward, there has been some type of personal destruction attempts. Bush senior escaped a major one, mainly because the Dems failed to bring down Reagan with Iran/Contra. That was the first big push. Then you had the Reps trying the same with Clinton over Lewinsky and real estate deals. Then the Dems tried again with Bush using the war, 9/11 whacko theories, etc.

Honestly, there has not been a push to attack Obama to bring him down, what has occured has been simply a debate over what this country needs regarding health care. Just because the majority of media wants to make it about their annointed one instead of that fact that MOST voters oppose this plan, is just another example of how the majority of media is a willing tool of the left.

the first really major piece of mud thrown within the timeframe you mention was Watergate, and Republican Nixon. The next major coup was Republican Reagan arranging a secret hostage deal with Iran to crush Carter. Next, Iran/Contra was not a mudball thrown by the Democrats - but a mudball resulting from the secret weapons deals that the Republican-owned White House must have known of, and the massive selling of drugs in the US with assistance by the CIA (so that the Contras got an income to pay for the US weapons). And then there were the court-callings and voting irregularities during Republican Bush junior'S two elections, and the treason of the republican government to start the long-before wanted Iraq war. - Some of these things imo border to high treason against the nation - maybe not by the word of the law, but by moral assessment and content.

Compared to that, the democratic presidents' misdemeanors of that timeframe are almost cosmetic in nature. Kennedy and Ford and the engagement in Vietnam cannot be counted here. It may be seen as a misled policy, a questionable political assessement and strategy - but no intentional cheating.

Eisenhower with his farewell speech - I often wondered if he really knew how tragically visionary he was.

[Onkel Neal]

For a change, see how the internal American civil war II about Obama's health care plans is perceived from some other civilised places in the West. To us, it looks like a dirty war both by regional politicians and republicans in general in order to damage the president - no matter the cost, and - pure hysteria. This German article describes the impression it leaves with us over here. It's a mud-throwing like I have not seen any since longer time.

Not since, say...the last President? :haha:

Honestly, how can the people who foamed at the mouth over every move Bush made not see the parallel?

[August]

Not since, say...the last President? :haha:

Honestly, how can the people who foamed at the mouth over every move Bush made not see the parallel?

Because they are hypocrites mostly imo.

[Schroeder]

Because they are hypocrites mostly imo.
Oh, but that works nicely in both directions.
All those who couldn't hear the whining about Bush anymore are now the ones waging a crusade against Obama for each and every decision he makes.;)

[August]

Oh, but that works nicely in both directions.
All those who couldn't hear the whining about Bush anymore are now the ones waging a crusade against Obama for each and every decision he makes.;)

We have a saying in my country: "Payback is a b*tch". It's what worries me more than anything else because unless it is stopped it has the power tear the country apart.

[SteamWake]

For a change, see how the internal American civil war II about Obama's health care plans is perceived from some other civilised places in the West.

At least thats how its portrayed. Once again the mainstream media gets it wrong.

They are trying their best to make this a race issue when it is not but it doesent matter because it helps to divert attention from the real issue.

[mookiemookie]

Oh the irony...it hurts.... :har::haha:

Protesters are demanding justice for a man [who was protesting the health care plan] who was injured during fighting that erupted last week when audience members at a St. Louis-area aging forum began yelling about health care reform.

...

Brown told the crowd that Gladney is accepting donations toward his medical expenses. Gladney told reporters he was laid off recently and has no health insurance.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics/story/1373035.html

[GoldenRivet]

question is: where does he work now? anywhere?

i promise you that if i were to be fired today - i would have a sutiable replacement job by the end of the week.

most likely with medical and dental benefits.

the problem with folks who get laid off from a plant job in St. Louis - many of them sit in St. Louis twiddling their thumbs.

when the normal thing to do is to move someplace where there is work.

but what if you dont have a single dime????

yard sale.

sell off everything you own that you dont need and get out of the town which is host to a dried up local economy.

the money you raise should be enough to buy enough gas to get you well into the next state or two.

[Skybird]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8194498.stm

[August]

the money you raise should be enough to buy enough gas to get you well into the next state or two.

First off for most people it just isn't that easy to pick up and move like that. What about family responsibilities? Should an out of work guy just abandon his aged parents or worse, his wife and kids and go off and seek his fortune elsewhere?

Second, not everyone as marketable as you. Even if they hit the road an over 50 former factory worker would not have an easy time picking up a job in normal times, let alone in this economy.

Finally if everyone followed your advice then guess what would happen to the availability of jobs in the areas they move to?

I think while some movement of workers to jobs isn't a problem the last thing we want is to have huge masses of increasingly desperate out of work people traveling around the country chasing phantom job rumors, ala the Great Depression.

[heartc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw&NR=1&feature=fvwp


Everything in there - including the conclusions of the comentator - is the total truth. In Germany, it is by far not as bad as it seems to be in Canada - but it's deteriorating and the underlying problems are the same. Also, the bottom line the guy draws is totally correct and reality here as well: With a state-run healthcare program, the "rich" people (doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc) will end up enjoying private health insurance, while the other people cannot afford it and must rely on a state-run system and PAY for it REGARDLESS if it works or not (or to what degree). Total truth. And it is also true that these days there are considerations to move AWAY from that system, because the state has difficulties with keeping it running. Until now however, moving "away" from it only means things like when you visit a public doctor these days, for the visit - which you already paid for with your mandatory social contributions into the public healthcare system - you also have to put down an extra 10 EUR cash now. That's healthcare reform, government style. I think you also have to partly pay for some drugs by yourself now, but I'm not sure about that, since I rarely ever visit a doc. Frankly, when I really need a drug, I just go to the local apothecary and pay 100% by myself, because I can't be arsed to visit the doc at ridiculous hours when normal people have to work, just to wait for hours and possibly get infected with all kinds of viruses flying around there, just to get some painkillers or whatever.

I always have to laugh when people tell me how great we have it with our state-run health-care system while in ruthlessly capitalist America people are dieing in the streets because they have no state-run health care. Right.

[heartc]

Oh, but that works nicely in both directions.
All those who couldn't hear the whining about Bush anymore are now the ones waging a crusade against Obama for each and every decision he makes.;)

Well, I get the impression that those who are whining the most that Obama is put under pressure now are those who were chastising Bush for 8 years the loudest.

[Schroeder]

Well, I get the impression that those who are whining the most that Obama is put under pressure now are those who were chastising Bush for 8 years the loudest.
That is why it goes in both directions.;)

[Onkel Neal]

Well, I get the impression that those who are whining the most that Obama is put under pressure now are those who were chastising Bush for 8 years the loudest.


Agreed. It would be nice to have a debate about the issue without all the hyperbole, both the delusional noise we were bombarded with from the left about Bush = Hitler and now the screeching from the right that Obama = Marx.

[Aramike]

Agreed. It would be nice to have a debate about the issue without all the hyperbole, both the delusional noise we were bombarded with from the left about Bush = Hitler and now the screeching from the right that Obama = Marx.I doubt that will ever happen, what with the fact that the vast majority of people have decided that it's better to simply be told what to think rather than thinking for themselves.

I suppose some people view it as much easier to pick their leaders abdicate all thinking to said leaders.

[Respenus]

@heartc

In Slovenia, the Social Democrat government (Bolshevik traitors run by greed and capital) changed the drug system to something similar in Germany. If you don't buy generic drugs, you need to pay a little extra. People have already started protesting, as people react differently to other compounds in a drug, creating more problems then solving them.

The system in Slovenia is different. You have universal health care, a contribution taken from your pay check, which can and in certain extends will pay your entire bills and for a ridiculously small additional amount paid to a private insurance firm, you get everything paid. So for around 10 additional Euros, you can get anything.

Yet how do you or anyone explain how someone like my father, pay for his heart medications, which cost around 500 euros every 3 months, medications which keep him alive. And not only that, how would he pay for life important surgery, which has saved and prolonged his life for several times now? I know from personal experience what universal healthcare coupled with a cheap private insurance can do. It saves lives. Are there lines in our hospitals? Sure. Yet considering our GDP per capita, Slovenia is doing quite well in the HDI (#26) and Life expectancy, so I'm not trading our system, where it is the person who is important, for a system where status is imporant.