Why bother reading the bill??!!

[SteamWake]

“I love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the bill,’” said Conyers.


“What good is reading the bill if it’s a thousand pages and you don’t have two days and two lawyers to find out what it means after you read the bill?”


Because its your effin duty to understand what your voting on ! Gawd they piss me off.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=51610&print=on

[Max2147]

This whole "read the bill" thing is a red herring put out there by people who don't know how things work in DC.

People need to understand that virtually nothing of any importance happens in the Capitol building, and Senators and Congressmen don't have any real power.

The real work happens in the Senate and House office buildings next door. Every Senator and Congressman is basically a puppet of his staff. The staffers are the ones who write the bills. The staffers meet with the lobbyists. The staffers/interns read the mail from the constituents. Heck, the staffers even tell the Senator/Congressman which way to vote on bills. The Senator/Congressman gives them guidelines and can override their advice, but on the vast majority of bills the Senator/Congressman just votes the way their staff tell them to.

You can bet that every single Senator and Congressman's staff have read every sentence of this healthcare bill. They know all its details and nuances, and they'll be the ones deciding whether the bill passes.

[SteamWake]

You can bet that every single Senator and Congressman's staff have read every sentence of this healthcare bill. They know all its details and nuances, and they'll be the ones deciding whether the bill passes.

Then why do they continue to tell us "You will be able to keep your current health coverage" when on page 16 it clearly states that this is not really true?

Fine have someone digest it for you but it is still their responsiblity to know the content and intent, which they do not.

Looks like Obama agrees with me!

http://newsbusters.org/stories/obama-2004-bush-rushed-legislationthrough-congress-without-allowing-time.html?q=blogs/p-j-gladnick/2009/07/27/obama-2004-bush-rushed-legislationthrough-congress-without-allowing-ti

[ETR3(SS)]

This whole "read the bill" thing is a red herring put out there by people who don't know how things work in DC.

People need to understand that virtually nothing of any importance happens in the Capitol building, and Senators and Congressmen don't have any real power.

The real work happens in the Senate and House office buildings next door. Every Senator and Congressman is basically a puppet of his staff. The staffers are the ones who write the bills. The staffers meet with the lobbyists. The staffers/interns read the mail from the constituents. Heck, the staffers even tell the Senator/Congressman which way to vote on bills. The Senator/Congressman gives them guidelines and can override their advice, but on the vast majority of bills the Senator/Congressman just votes the way their staff tell them to.

You can bet that every single Senator and Congressman's staff have read every sentence of this healthcare bill. They know all its details and nuances, and they'll be the ones deciding whether the bill passes.
That's great...but I didn't vote for a bunch of staffers to do the Congressman's job for them. The person running for Congress didn't say their staffers will fight for X,Y, and Z. They campaign saying that THEY will fight for X,Y, and Z. :nope:

[Max2147]

That's great...but I didn't vote for a bunch of staffers to do the Congressman's job for them. The person running for Congress didn't say their staffers will fight for X,Y, and Z. They campaign saying that THEY will fight for X,Y, and Z. :nope:
And it's all a bunch of bullsh*t. Like I said, they're just puppets.

Of course, the Senators/Congressmen give their staff guidance as far as how they think and what their priorities are. But a Senator/Congressman's main priority isn't getting stuff done in DC, it's getting re-elected.

[bookworm_020]

The old adage "You pay monkeys, you get peanuts!" comes to mind!:hmmm:

[ETR3(SS)]

So here's a question. What's the difference between a Congressman and someone who lives on welfare for their whole life?

[Letum]

"You pay monkeys, you get peanuts!"

Where can I hire these monkeys?
How much do I have to pay these monkeys to get peanuts?
Is the value of the peanuts more the the wages I paid the monkeys?
Can I make a profit after packaging, distribution, non-monkey staff and advertisement?

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys!

[NeonSamurai]

Funny I thought peanuts got you elephants :DL

Bananas get you monkeys ;)

[Letum]

Peanuts and bananas are cheep so instead of hiring a single professional
at £100k p/a, why not hire many, many monkeys and elephants at £100k
worth of peanuts and bananas p/a?

There must be a point when the quantity of monkeys and elephants can
provide more than the quality of a single professional...right?


This is not meant to be analogous.

[SteamWake]

What do ya get when you hire donkeys ? :hmmm:

[Letum]

Rides up and down the beach?

[FIREWALL]

Out of all of this,.... Now I know who to Bribe.

[Platapus]

The solution is simple.

The House and Senate need to amend their rules such that introducing a bill at the last moment is no longer allowed.

The problem is that both sides use this as a way of pushing their agendas. So I would not look to either party to change the rules.

[geetrue]

Here's someone who read the bill page by page.

The comments are his not mine ...

My only comment is My God how can any american vote for this? :salute:

Peter Fleckenstein, a blogger and former Marine from Phoenix, Arizona, is going through the ObamaCare bill page by page and highlighting the provisions he finds there.

Fleckenstein's blog is here < http://blog.flecksoflife.com/ (http://blog.flecksoflife.com/)<http://blog.flecksoflife.com/> (http://blog.flecksoflife.com/) > .

. Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
. Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
. Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
. Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
. Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
. Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
. Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
. Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN )
. Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
. Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
. Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
. Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
. Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
. Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
. Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
. Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
. Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
. Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
. Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
. Page 167: Any individual who doesn't' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
. Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
. Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
. Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
. Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
. Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
. Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
. Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
. Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
. Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
. Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
. Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
. Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
. Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
. Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
. Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
. Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
. Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
. Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
. Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
. Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
. Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
. Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
. Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
. Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
. Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
. Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
. Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
. Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
* PG 502 Line 5-18 Government builds the "Center" to conduct, support, & synthesize research to define our HealthCare Services.
* PG 502 Section 1181 Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research Established. - Hello Big Brother - Literally.
* PG 503 Line 13-19 Government will build registries and data networks from YOUR electronic medical records.
* PG 503 Line 21-25 Government may secure data directly from any department or agency of the US including your data.
* PG 504 Line 6-10 The "Center" will collect data both published & unpublished (that means public & your private info)
* PG 506 Line 19-21 The Center will recommend policies that would allow for public access of data
* PG 518 Line 21-25 The Commission will have input from HealthCare consumer reps - Can you say unions & ACORN?
* PG 524 18-22 Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund set up. More taxes for ALL.
* PGs 525-620 deals with the Govt basically taking over nursing homes, long-term care facilities (think assisted living) through regulations of the facilities, the owners of sd facilities, the employees of sd facilities and even the land owners of that sd facilities reside on. Additionally as you read these 90+ pages you can come to the conclusion that any Health related svcs will be determined and rationed by the Govt for our senior citizens and others in nursing homes. This one post should do enough to raise awareness of the control the Govt is exerting over the older population of American citizens.
* PG 620 Line 1-9 The Government will define, prioritize, and nationalize your Health Care Services.
* PG 621 Lines 20-25 Government will define what Quality means in HealthCare. Since when does Government know about quality?
* PG 622 Lines 2-9 To pay for the quality Standards Government will transfer $$ from to other Government Trust Funds. More Taxes.
* PG 624 "Quality" measures shall be designed to assess outcomes & functional status of patients.
* PG 628 Section 1443 Government will give "Multi-Stake Holders" Pre-Rule Making input into Selection of "Quality" Measures.
* PG 630 9-24/631 1-9 Those Multi-stake holder groups including Unions & groups like ACORN deciding HealthCare quality.
* PG 632 Lines 14-25 The Government may implement any "Quality measure" of HealthCare Services as they see fit.
* PG 633 14-25/ 634 1-9 The Secretary may issue non-endorsed "Quality Measures" for Physician Services & Dialysis Services.
* PG 635 - 653 Physicians Payments Sunshine Provision - Government wants to shine sunlight on Docs but not Government.
* PG 654-659 Public Reporting on Health Care-Associated Infections - Looks okay.
* PG 660-671 Doctors in Residency - Government will tell you where your residency will be, thus where you'll live.
* PG 676-686 Government will regulate hospitals in EVERY aspect of residency programs, including teaching hospitals.
* PG 686-700 Increased Funding to Fight Waste, Fraud, and Abuse. You mean the Government with an $18 mil website?
* PGs 701-704 Section 1619 If your part of HealthCare plan that isn't in Government HealthCare Exchange but you qualify for Federal aid, no payment.
* PG 705-709 SEC. 1128 If Secretary gets complaints ( ACORN) on HealthCare provider or supplier, Government can do background check.
* PG 711 Lines 8-14 The Secretary has broad powers to deny HealthCare providers/suppliers admittance into HealthCare Exchange.
* Pg 719-720 Section 1637 ANY Doctor who orders durable medical equipment or home medical services MUST be enrolled in Medicare.
* PG 722 Section 1639 Government Mandates Doctors must have face-to-face with patient to certify patient for Home Health Services.
* PG 724 23-25 PG 725 1-5 The same Government certifications will apply to medicaid & CHIP (your kids) Pg 735 lines 16-25 For law enforcement purposes, the Secretary of Health & Human Services will give Attorney General access to ALL data.
* PG 724 Lines 16-22 Government reserves right to apply face-to-face certification for patient to ANY other HealthCare service.
* PG 740-757 Government sets guidelines for subsidizing the uninsured (That's your tax dollars peeps) Pg 757-762 Fed Government will shift burden of payments to Disproportionate Share Hospitals (DSH) to States. (Taxes)
* PG 763 1-8 No DS/EA hospitals will be paid unless they provide services without regard to national origin Pg 765 Section 1711 Government will require Preventative Services including vaccines. (Choice?)
* Pg 768 Section 1713 Government - Nurse Home Visitation Services (Hello union paybacks)
* Pg 769 11-14 Nurse Home Visit Services include-economic self-sufficiency, employment advancement, school-readiness.
* Pg 769 3-5 Nurse Home Visit Services - "increasing birth intervals between pregnancies." Government Abortions anyone?
* Pg 770 SEC 1714 Federal Government mandates eligibility for State Family Planning Services. Say abortion & State Sovereign.
* Pg 789-797 Government will set & mandate drug prices, controlling which drugs will brought to market. Bye innovation
* Pgs 797-800 SEC. 1744 PAYMENTS for grad medical education. The government will now control Drs education. PG 801 Sec 1751 The Government will decide which Health care conditions will be paid. Say RATION!
* Pg 810 SEC. 1759. Billing Agents, clearinghouses, etc. required to register. Government takes over private payment system.
* PG 820-824 Sec 1801 Government will identify individuals ineligible for subsidies. Will access all personal finances.
* Pg 824-829 SEC. 1802. Government Sets up Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund. Another tax black hole.
* PG 829-833 Government will impose a fee on ALL private health insurance plans including self insured to pay for Trust Fund!
* PG 835 11-13 fees imposed by Government for Trust Fund shall be treated as if they were taxes.
* Pg 838-840 Government will design & implement Home Visitation Program for families with young kids & families expecting kids.
* PG 844-845 This Home Visitation Program includes Government coming into your house & telling you how to parent!!!
* Pg 859 Government will establish a Public Health Fund at a cost of $88,800,000,000. Yes thats Billion.
* PG 865 to 876 The NHS Corps is a program where Drs. perform mandatory HealthCare for 2 years for part loan repayment.
* PG 876-892 The Government takes over the education of our Medical students and Drs.
* PG 898 The Government will establish a Public Health Workforce Corps. to ensure supply of public health professionals.
* PG 898 The Public health workforce corps shall consist of civilian employees of the U.S. as Secretary deems.
* PG 898 The Public health workforce corps shall consist of officers of Regular & Reserve Corps of Service.
* PG 900 The Public Health Workforce Corps includes veterinarians.
* PG 901 The Public Health Workforce Corps WILL include commissioned Regular & Reserve Officers. HealthCare Draft?
* PG 910 The Government will develop, build & run Public Health Training Centers.
* PG 913-914 Government starts a HealthCare affirmative action program thru guise of diversity scholarships.
* PG 915 SEC. 2251. Government MANDATES Cultural & linguistic competency training for HealthCare professionals.
* Pg 932 The Government will establish Preventative & Wellness Trust fund - intial cost of $30,800,000,000-Billion.
* PG 935 21-22 Government will identify specific goals & objectives for prevention & wellness activities. Control You!!
* PG 936 Government will develop "Healthy People & National Public Health Performance Standards" Tell me what to eat?
* PG 942 Lines 22-25 More Government? Offices of Surgeon General -Public Health Services, Minority Health, Women's Health
* PG 950- 980 BIG Government core public health infrastructure includes workforce capacity, lab systems; health information systems, etc
* PG 993 Government will establish school based health clinics. Your kids wont have a chance.
* PG 994 School Based Health Clinic will be integrated into the school environment. Say Government Brainwash!
* PG 1001 The Government will establish a National Medical Device Registry. Will you be tracked?
* PG 1003 9-11 National Medical Dev Reg ''(iii) other postmarket device surveillance activities" you WILL be tracked.
* PG 1018 States give up some of their State Sovereignty.

[mookiemookie]

Here's someone who read the bill page by page.

The comments are his not mine ...

My only comment is My God how can any american vote for this? :salute:

Peter Fleckenstein, a blogger and former Marine from Phoenix, Arizona, is going through the ObamaCare bill page by page and highlighting the provisions he finds there.

Fleckenstein's blog is here < http://blog.flecksoflife.com/ (http://blog.flecksoflife.com/)<http://blog.flecksoflife.com/> (http://blog.flecksoflife.com/) > .

You believe all that crap?

Since the analysis was done by an opponent of the plan, it contains many half-truths, distortions, and outright lies about the actual bill (shocking, huh?) Some of these I found at open salon (http://open.salon.com/blog/charlie_redmond/2009/07/29/that_email_making_the_rounds_picking_apart_healthc are_bill), and some I looked up myself. First the ones from salon:

"Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

...the wording on P22 has to do with establishing premium rates by conducting a study of current employer-provided health insurance. There's nothing on that page about employer mandates, either through self-insurance or any other kind of insurance.

Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

What's on P29 is a proposed formula for determining cost-sharing & co-payments. There's nothing about "health care rationing."

Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)

The committee proposed is not a government committee; it's a public advisory committee chaired by the Surgeon General & with the following membership: 18 members, as worded in the bill, "who are not Federal employees or officers" and up to 8 members "who are Federal employees or officers". So two-thirds of the committee are explicitly not govt, but private sector.

Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

There is no such statement, here on P50, or anywhere else in the bill. In fact, there is a completely opposite proposal: Section 246, on page 143, which explicitly excludes "Undocumented Aliens" --- "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

well, yes ... to show you have coverage of some sort. We also have to show a driver's license, registration and an auto insurance card to drive in this country.

Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

well, yes ... to allow us to pay for coverage if we choose the new public plan. It's called EFT. You use it to pay bills. Welcome to the 21st century.

Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

Yes, there will be rules. That's what bills that became law is --- rules.”

Here are a few of the further fallacies I discovered:

Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)

Not there. Page 84 deals with the different levels of plans to be offered; basic, premium, and enhanced, and the benefit levels each plan must meet.

Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.

It says use “appropriate entities” to “inform and educate individuals and employers about...participating health benefits plan options.” Specifically, outreach to “children” and individuals with “disabilities, mental illness, and other cognitive impairments.” No mention of ACORN or Americorps.

Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

Wrong. People will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid—only if they have not elected to enroll in another participating plan.

Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.

The page says the employer “provides” auto-enrollment for employees. Provide, meaning to make available, not make mandatory.

Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.

No mention of the $400,000 figure on page 149. The “employer contribution in lieu of coverage” is “8% of the average wages paid by the employer...taking into account all employees of the employer.”

Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.

This page deals with determining eligibility for “affordability credits.” The information required is “filing status, modified adjusted gross income, and number of dependents,” not ALL financial and personal records. Information the IRS already has, by the way.

Page 253: Government sets value of doctors’ time, their professional judgment, etc.

This page does not set the value of the doctor’s time, it requires “validation” of the doctor’s time, to prevent the government being billed for time not spent with the patient and services not rendered, I would assume.

Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.

This section deals with analyzing special needs PLANS with regard to “cost, quality of care, and patient satisfaction.” It has nothing to do with special needs PEOPLE.

Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory.

This section provides for “consultation” and “explanation” of such things as advanced care planning and advanced directives, and a “list of...resources to assist consumers and their families.” This is available to people who have not had such a consultation within the last 5 years.

[geetrue]

You believe all that crap?

Your talking about the comments not the main portion ...

This is not what America needs ... I see why they wanted a quickie vote on this monster revamping of who controls who.

[Thomen]

. Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
. Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).





WTF? :shifty:

All of a sudden I am starting to feel ashamed to be a legal resident and a possible drain on the system. :timeout:

[SteamWake]

WTF? :shifty:

All of a sudden I am starting to feel ashamed to be a legal resident and a possible drain on the system. :timeout:

No no we need good men like you. Forthright upstanding citizens whom do the right thing pay there mortgages and pay there taxes.

So that others may reap the benifits of your hard work.

[Platapus]

You believe all that crap?

Hey! If a guy calls himself a former Marine, and writes a blog that should be all the credibility you need!!!! Besides it is on the internets tubes so it must be true!

Maybe someone should point out to this blogger that the document he "analyzed" is just a draft that is still going through the first stages of markup and referral.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:HR03200:@@@X

Why don't we wait until we see the final bill before getting all excited?