Ireland bans free speech and free religion.

[Rilder]

http://www.palibandaily.com/2009/07/09/ireland-makes-blasphemy-illegal/

Irish atheists are horrified by new legislation making blasphemy illegal, and punishable by a 25,000-Euro fine. Christians of all stripes should be, too.

As part of a revision to defamation legislation, the Dail (Irish Parliament) passed legislation creating a new crime of blasphemy. This attack on free speech, debated for several months in Europe, has gone largely unnoticed in the American press.

The text of the legislation is provided at the end of this post.

How does this impact free speech? Just don’t be rude.

* Atheists can be prosecuted for saying that God is imaginary. That causes outrage.
* Pagans can be prosecuted for saying they left Christianity because God is violent and bloodthirsty, promotes genocide, and permits slavery.
* Christians can be prosecuted for saying that Allah is a moon god, or for drawing a picture of Mohammed, or for saying that Islam is a violent religion which breeds terrorists.
* Jews can be prosecuted for saying Jesus isn’t the Messiah.

Is it really THAT big a deal?

Ireland’s Blasphemy Bill not only criminalizes free speech, it also gives the police the authority to confiscate anything deemed “blasphemous”. They may enter and search any premises, with force if needed, upon “reasonable suspicion” that such materials are present.

* The local Freethinkers society, with its copies of Hitchens’ God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.
* The video store, with copies of The God Who Wasn’t There.
* The history teacher, who uses The Dark Side of Christian History to teach her class.
* The library, with its collection of books deemed blasphemous.
* Even the homeowner who lets the wrong person know he has a copy of Salman Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses could find his door broken in by the Thought Police, his bookshelves ransacked, and his books burning in the front yard!

Satirizing religion in any way, shape, or form, if it “causes outrage”, is now a prosecutable offense in Ireland. Saying anything negative about a religion, if it “causes outrage”, can now be prosecuted as a crime. Just like in Muslim countries.

Witness the return of the Dark Ages.Lets hope bull**** like this doesn't spread.

[Tchocky]

A farce, that was.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0710/1224250388598.html

In an electronic vote whereby Senators press a button, the Government was defeated by 22 votes to 21 in the 60-member upper house. However, Fianna Fáil whip Diarmuid Wilson immediately requested a walk-through vote which takes about 10 minutes to complete. In that period two Senators, Geraldine Feeney of Fianna Fáil and Deirdre De Burca of the Green Party, had time to get to the chamber and the amendment was defeated by 23 votes to 22. The Bill itself was then passed by the same margin.

[Skybird]

Planned and partially realised EU legislation includes that criticism of religion gets prevented by claiming it is a hate crime, which religious critics could be sued and sentenced for. This was done after immense lobbying to enforce tolerance and support for foreign migration, leaving no other choice to people critical of it than to actively support it. Passive objection to it is illegal, and you can get punished for it.

The church had not much to object, though. It takes the benefit from it, and smiles.

EU sucks. The few reasonable acts it gets together cannot compensate for the massive damages it causes. To hell with it.

[CastleBravo]

I feel badly for you in Europe concerning this issue. The reason is that those that disagree with the policy have little to no recourse in the matter. Having watched the EU at a distance, it seems to me that when the population votes against something the powers 'that be' inevetably nullify the vote and move the issue among themselves. Am I wrong about my analysis? If so let me know.

Anyway my original thought stands...I feel badly for you.

[Thomen]

Reading a bit further about this, it seems that they basically replace one un-enforceable law with another one.:nope:

From the comments:


Since every religion’s basic doctrine blasphemes against at least one other religion, Irish atheists now just have to shut up until the theists have all locked each other away, and then there’ll be nobody left to be offended!


:up:

[Rilder]

Yet more lolchristians, banning free speech.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-07-14-lithuania-censorship_N.htm

VILNIUS, Lithuania (AP) — Lithuania (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Countries/Lithuania)'s Parliament on Tuesday approved a censorship bill that aims to keep information about homosexuality away from children, angering gay rights activists who called the measure homophobic.

Basically you can't even say anything about gays there.

What's next? Italy legalizes burning non-christians at the stake? :nope:

[CastleBravo]

Yet more lolchristians, banning free speech.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-07-14-lithuania-censorship_N.htm



Basically you can't even say anything about gays there.

What's next? Italy legalizes burning non-christians at the stake? :nope:

Can't say anything about criminal organiztions masquerading as religion, Islam, Scientology. Wait, that is what this is all about.....nevermind.

[Tribesman]

So much for the ban on free speech and criticising religion.
Tommy Tiernan kicked off the Galway arts festival with a rant insulting just about every religion and denomination you can think of.

[Tchocky]

Get to see Tommy?

Lucky sod

[Tribesman]

Lucky sod
He is a short arse gob****e with no sense of humour and an ego problem.

[Stealth Hunter]

See this is why nobody likes the damn Micks.:nope:

[nikimcbee]

See this is why nobody likes the damn Micks.:nope:

:haha: What about the macs?

[SUBMAN1]

What comes around goes around. Atheists have been doing this for the last decade, yet they are too blind when the cards are reversed.

-S

[Rilder]

What comes around goes around. Atheists have been doing this for the last decade, yet they are too blind when the cards are reversed.

-S

What? getting repressed by christians?

Big deal, we Hellenics(best name I can come up for it) have been repressed for like 1600+ years.

[Letum]

Odly enough, the Hellenic Polytheistic Reconstructionism movement do claim to be repressed by the Greek authorities.

[Stealth Hunter]

:haha: What about the macs?

We don't take kindly to the Scots 'round here neither.:rotfl:

What comes around goes around. Atheists have been doing this for the last decade, yet they are too blind when the cards are reversed.

Assuming what you said WAS true to begin with (and it's not, lol; you just have a grudge against Atheists and take every opportunity that you can to bash them; and before you say I bash Christians all the time, I only do it to the nutters, such as yourself), a decade is insignificant compared to the hundreds and hundreds of years Christianity has ruled supreme with an iron fist, silencing all the "heathens" who chose not to be converted and challenged their authority.:roll:

If I were to ever choose a god to follow, it certainly would not be the god of the Bible.

And don't even start up again with the "HITLER AND STALIN WERE ATHEISTS!" BS again like you always do. They weren't. Hitler was a devout Roman-Catholic, and there are plenty of quotes from him confirming this (consult Mein Kampf). Additionally, the quotes from Hitler's Table Talk have been debated by scholars for decades, and they're pretty much in agreement that they're frauds made by Martin Bormann (a staunch anti-Catholic).

And as far as Stalin goes, there are only rumors that he was a closet Atheist. Due to a lack of personal quotes on the matter, however, and contrary evidence (the man remained pious well until the end of his life according to close advisors of his--not to mention according to documents found by Edvard Radzinsky, and he also reversed his ban against the Orthodox Church), it's safe to conclude he was not an Atheist in any sense of the term.

[Sea Demon]

...Christianity has ruled supreme with an iron fist, silencing all the "heathens" who chose not to be converted and challenged their authority.:roll:

If I were to ever choose a god to follow, it certainly would not be the god of the Bible.



Your description actually sounds alot more like the looney Islamic Republic of Iran that you claim to have come from.

And you moved to a top heavy Christian nation to boot. :doh: Confused soul you are SH.

[Stealth Hunter]

Your description actually sounds alot more like the looney Islamic Republic of Iran that you claim to have come from.

But there again, Christianity has existed for longer than Islam has and also has more followers than Islam does (not to mention a more "colorful" history). But that's not the point. Quite simply, I don't approve of most religions (Islam included).

And you moved to a top heavy Christian nation to boot. Confused soul you are SH.

I'm not aware of any nation that shares the governing style of the United States and doesn't have a Christian majority population; are you?

[Sea Demon]

But there again, Christianity has existed for longer than Islam has and also has more followers than Islam does (not to mention a more "colorful" history). But that's not the point. Quite simply, I don't approve of most religions (Islam included).

I'm not aware of any nation that shares the governing style of the United States and doesn't have a Christian majority population; are you?

Big deal. No nation on Earth whose population is heavily Christian, are doing what you described above. The Islamic Republic you claimed to be from does though....although you are curiously silent about those nuts. You painted a picture of Christians that doesn't exist in modern times. My point is, you have an irrational contempt (by your posts and words within them) of Christians, but you have chosen to live among them. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you here, but I believe in calling this one like I see it. You attack, ridicule, and demonize people of the Christian faith heavily on many threads on this forum. Yet, you have determined that a nation founded on it's core principles, and propagated throughout 2 centuries is suitable for you to live in. I have maintained all along that you living in my nation is laughable due to your views regarding the majority of people who make it work and their value systems. Which are apparently 180 degrees out of phase from your own. The difference is it is you who carries the irrational intolerance. Not the majority of American Christians.

You have a number of other destinations you could have chosen in Europe. India is the largest Democracy in the world. Japan is certainly not majority Christian. Yet, you chose my heavily populated Christian nation. You of course are free to be here (freedom in a Christian nation...go figure), and are free to your opinions, but your choice to be around us "iron fisted Christians" as you say is remarkably ignorant. Utlimately you are free to leave as well. Since the Christian God and the American Christian people so offend you....I don't understand what's stopping you from finding a more suitable "unbelieving" nation. There are certainly others out there.

[Tribesman]

What comes around goes around. Atheists have been doing this for the last decade, yet they are too blind when the cards are reversed.

How ironic.
What you fail to understand is that the legislation that is meant to protect religious expression means that only religious people can really be prosecuted

[Rilder]

The Islamic Republic you claimed to be from does though....although you are curiously silent about those nuts.

Sounds like you hate Islamics as much as he hates christians.

Muslim nations I can respect, they have fought off Zeus knows how many crusades and still hold strong, you can't blame them for being just a bit ornery about it.

[Sea Demon]

Sounds like you hate Islamics as much as he hates christians.

Muslim nations I can respect, they have fought off Zeus knows how many crusades and still hold strong, you can't blame them for being just a bit ornery about it.

Sounds like you understand nothing. I don't hate anybody of any faith. And I don't make a habit of ridiculing people of the Muslim faith in every thread I participate in if the topic steers towards religion. And I certainly wouldn't do it if I chose to live among them while benefiting from their society. I do, however, loathe the Islamic clerics of Iran though for many reasons I'll let you figure out.

Edited to add - Of course I also find it funny how you don't mention the Jihads conducted by Muslims throughout the centuries, perpetrated on others around them. You are obviously uneducated about world history. Or the deaths and attrocities caused by atheists and godless societies of the 20th century.

[SUBMAN1]

...And don't even start up again with the "HITLER AND STALIN WERE ATHEISTS!" BS again like you always do. They weren't. Hitler was a devout Roman-Catholic, and there are plenty of quotes from him confirming this (consult Mein Kampf). Additionally, the quotes from Hitler's Table Talk have been debated by scholars for decades, and they're pretty much in agreement that they're frauds made by Martin Bormann (a staunch anti-Catholic).

And as far as Stalin goes, there are only rumors that he was a closet Atheist. Due to a lack of personal quotes on the matter, however, and contrary evidence (the man remained pious well until the end of his life according to close advisors of his--not to mention according to documents found by Edvard Radzinsky, and he also reversed his ban against the Orthodox Church), it's safe to conclude he was not an Atheist in any sense of the term.

Are yo for real? Or just stupid? I'm not even sure you know what you are trying to talk about here. Yeah! I'm a good Christian since I kill millions of people with no remorse! I can't believe you even wrote such nonsense.

I'll ignore it for now since maybe it is simply flame bait.

Next you are going to write that Hitler is as far right as one can get! Hahahahaha! Hilarious!

-S

[Sailor Steve]

Interesting turn this thread has taken, starting with a so-called Christian attempting to ban freedom to someone actually using the phrase I've so often joked about, i.e. "I'm right and you're stupid".

I say so-called because I read nowhere in the Bible of Jesus ever suggesting that this kind of oppression be invoked by his followers.

You of course are free to be here (freedom in a Christian nation...go figure)
Actually religious freedom is a fairly new phenomenon in so-called Christian nations (this time I say so-called because just calling yourself "Christian" doesn't make it so. Many of today's "Christians", if asked, would probably say they consider themselves Christian because that's the way they were raised. Do they really believe? Do they really practice what Christ preached? Almost certainly not. How many people here have dedicated their lives to preaching, and living, the Gospel? Of course that is true of members of other religions as well.

As for freedom, the very crime of "Blasphemy" was punishable by death in the state of Virginia until Thomas Jefferson (almost certainly a believer but just as certainly not a Christian) wrote his Virginia Statute For Religious Freedom in 1779. Likewise the 'crime' of "Denying The Holy Trinity" which earned a sentence of 30 days in jail. Christians are not the authors of religious freedom in this country or any other.

[Letum]

Christians are not the authors of religious freedom in this country or any other.

I don't suppose it is in the interest of any religion for other religions/non-
religions to have freedom.
Whilst I agree that religious freedoms are often created by humanists,
secularists and fringe spiritualists/deists, I don't think it is fair to say that
no Christians have been instrumental in the formulation of modern
religious freedom.

There have been progressive Christians since Thomas Aquinas opened up
dogma to the scrutiny of the intellect.

[CastleBravo]

My faith alows for freedom of choice. Not only allows for it, but makes the point that it is a God given element of the human existance.

[Stealth Hunter]

Big deal. No nation on Earth whose population is heavily Christian, are doing what you described above.

Aside from the people in nations like Kenya for example burning "witches" to death.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7413268.stm

"Anthony Kibunguchy, the provincial police officer, told the BBC that the eight women and three men were all aged between 80 and 96 years old."

According to the CIA World Factbook, most of the people are Christian there (mostly Protestant with Roman-Catholics ranking second at 45% and 33% respectively). Additionally, they have a population 39,000,000 people. So that assertion you made is factually incorrect.

The Islamic Republic you claimed to be from does though....

Indeed it does. When did I deny that it didn't do despicable things?

although you are curiously silent about those nuts.

Not really, lol. I mean, I've openly said I've gone from Islam to Atheism, I've likewise challenged faith as a whole time and time again here (including Islam), and I just acknowledged happily that the lot of them are fanatics.

You painted a picture of Christians that doesn't exist in modern times.

The Kenyans would beg to differ with that. Futhermore, how about the bombings of abortion clinics and shootings of doctors working at them (like George Tiller)? Not nearly as funny as the Westboro Baptists (be warned that the video is graphic):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdEAIMwMsxY&feature=related

And Ted Haggard's remarks about homosexuals, lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6rSjrBhUIA

The funny thing is, Haggard was caught paying a man for sex services and was also doing meth.

My point is, you have an irrational contempt (by your posts and words within them) of Christians, but you have chosen to live among them.

Again, there's not a whole lot of choice. The United States has laws like few other nations do, and that's a plus side to it. The large Christian populace is something that just comes with it, and since I want to live here because of the laws, I'm going to have to put up with it for the moment...

Yet, you have determined that a nation founded on it's core principles, and propagated throughout 2 centuries is suitable for you to live in.

Uh, no. The United States was not founded upon Christian principles; it was founded on similar desires and needs the ex-colonists thought were important. Additionally, most of the Founding Fathers themselves were not Christian (including George Washing, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Thomas Paine, James Monroe, Ethan Allen, and Benjamin Franklin), and the Treaty of Tripoli (ratified by the Senate in 1797) quite clearly states in Article 11 that:

". . .the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. . ."

I have maintained all along that you living in my nation is laughable due to your views regarding the majority of people who make it work and their value systems.

Since when do you own more of it than I do? I'm just as much a legal citizen as you are.

The difference is it is you who carries the irrational intolerance. Not the majority of American Christians.

Again, tell that to these Christian people (again, graphic warning):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEQuW2v6U2o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6rSjrBhUIA

You have a number of other destinations you could have chosen in Europe.

True; Sweden or the Netherlands may not have been bad. Even then, they both have a large Christian population (at least Sweden is mostly Lutheran).

India is the largest Democracy in the world.

They also openly burn witches and heretics; I wouldn't exactly call that a democracy. Plus, it's a pretty s****y nation in terms of just about everything (high disease rates, high poverty rates, high crime rates, high death rates).

Japan is certainly not majority Christian.

Not sure I'd like the Shintos much though or the government for that matter.

Yet, you chose my heavily populated Christian nation.

It's just as much mine; again, I'm a citizen too. And it's not a nation founded upon Christian principles (hence, it's not a "Christian nation"). The Treaty of Tripoli made that much quite clear.

but your choice to be around us "iron fisted Christians" as you say is remarkably ignorant.

Because you say so.:roll:

I don't understand what's stopping you from finding a more suitable "unbelieving" nation.

The lack of them is what's stopping me, lol; the CIA World Factbook is displaying no democratic nations with an Atheist majority.

You are obviously uneducated about world history. Or the deaths and attrocities caused by atheists and godless societies of the 20th century.

Perhaps you would like to enligthen us on these Atheists and godless societies who killed in the name of Atheism.

Are yo for real? Or just stupid?

Typical Subman: criticise and attack without substance.

I'm not even sure you know what you are trying to talk about here.

You obviously don't since you've stated time and time again that you think Hitler was an Atheist, when the evidence is quite the contrary:

http://liberalslikechrist.org/hitleratchurch.jpghttp://www.claremontmckenna.edu/hist/jpetropoulos/church/tamerpage/hitler26bishop.gif
http://www.burningcross.net/inquisition/hitler-pope/hitler-cardinal.jpg
http://rogerdavies.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/gottmuns.jpghttp://www.naturesrights.com/IMAGES/nazi%20and%20catholics.jpg

Yeah! I'm a good Christian since I kill millions of people with no remorse!

Apparently you are, because the Catholic Church certainly had no trouble doing it during the Crusades and Inquisition, claiming it was "In the Name of God". How many times did Pol Pot kill "In the Name of Atheism"? He didn't, lol. He killed political enemies. That's what sets him apart from you (though genocide of any type is horrible).

I can't believe you even wrote such nonsense.

:yawn:

Next you are going to write that Hitler is as far right as one can get!

Well lets see: he completely remilitarized the Rhineland and advocated a strong military, he likewise believed in patriotism, he opposed the Marxist theory (the man killed everyone who followed it FFS; Marxism is about as far left as you can get), and he murdered anti-Fascists, Social Democrats, and labor party leaders.

Does that sound like a traditional liberal? No. You've used a political compass before I assume, yes? I've never seen one before that places Hitler on the left; have you? Find one for me that does.

There have been progressive Christians since Thomas Aquinas opened up
dogma to the scrutiny of the intellect.

Well I'll agree with you there.

[SUBMAN1]

Lets see, you posted a picture of Hitler visiting a church and talking to what was then and still is a very powerful leader with much sway. Hahahahahaha! Hilarious!

So I will visit a Muslim mosque, and next you will accuse me of being Muslim! Hahahahahahaha!

Next:
If you knew a damn thing about government, you would know that control is the left, and anarchy is the right. But you obviously don't. But I can't fault your ignorance other than to say, read a book and learn something. Just because you don't like one government on the left, doesn't mean you aren't left too! Friggen ridiculous!!! You made me laugh though! :D

So, when you have educated yourself, come back and we can have a logical conversation. You are full of fire today though. It shows spirit! :yeah:

-S

[antikristuseke]

Hitler was neither a christian nor an atheist. You are both wrong. Nor was he far left, or far right, more right leaning centrist than anything else in that department, but he was extremely authoritarian. But since it is easyer to go on pretending the world is black and white, have fun with your willy waving contests boys.

[Sea Demon]

Aside from the people in nations like Kenya for example burning "witches" to death.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7413268.stm

"Anthony Kibunguchy, the provincial police officer, told the BBC that the eight women and three men were all aged between 80 and 96 years old."

According to the CIA World Factbook, most of the people are Christian there (mostly Protestant with Roman-Catholics ranking second at 45% and 33% respectively). Additionally, they have a population 39,000,000 people. So that assertion you made is factually incorrect.

Yes, Kenya and the USA are comparable nations. :doh: Also, this is an example of the exception to the rule. Wouldn't you agree? Seeing in how Africa is the basket case that it is.

Indeed it does. When did I deny that it didn't do despicable things?

Not really, lol. I mean, I've openly said I've gone from Islam to Atheism, I've likewise challenged faith as a whole time and time again here (including Islam), and I just acknowledged happily that the lot of them are fanatics.

Actually you loudly accuse Christians in America of being "iron fisted" when there is no such evidence that most American Christians are fanatics. Actually, most just seek to live life in peace. Of course I never see you criticize the nutjob Mullahs from Iran who truly are butchers and iron fisted tyrranical rulers. I've looked into your posting history and don't see a thing. Not even recently during their "iron fisted" crackdown of your "former fellow countrymen".

The Kenyans would beg to differ with that. Futhermore, how about the bombings of abortion clinics and shootings of doctors working at them (like George Tiller)? Not nearly as funny as the Westboro Baptists

Since when do you think that most Christians think like this? Every single Christian I know think these people are crazy. Of course you live in an bubble.

The funny thing is, Haggard was caught paying a man for sex services and was also doing meth.

Haggard does not speak for Christians. Even the people who were a part of his congregation find his acts repulsive.

Again, there's not a whole lot of choice. The United States has laws like few other nations do, and that's a plus side to it. The large Christian populace is something that just comes with it, and since I want to live here because of the laws,

A total cop out. There are plenty of places for you to go to with similar laws to our own.

I'm going to have to put up with it for the moment...

Poor you. The funny thing is I see through your tripe here.

Uh, no. The United States was not founded upon Christian principles; it was founded on similar desires and needs the ex-colonists thought were important.

It certainly was founded upon the Christian ideals. It does not promote any specific faith. Christian or otherwise. It also doesn't prohibit the free exercise of religion. Something you still need to learn.

Additionally, most of the Founding Fathers themselves were not Christian (including George Washing, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Thomas Paine, James Monroe, Ethan Allen, and Benjamin Franklin),

George Washington was an Episcopalian. As was James Monroe. Same with James Madison. John Adams was a biblical unitarian. etc. These men were steeped in the Christian faith. Most had faith in God. And our founding documents and other historical government documents are riddled with statements referring to God.

Since when do you own more of it than I do? I'm just as much a legal citizen as you are.

I can run for President LEGALLY...you cannot. :D

True; Sweden or the Netherlands may not have been bad. Even then, they both have a large Christian population (at least Sweden is mostly Lutheran).

Then what's stopping you. Their laws are similar to ours as well. Except they actually have the nanny state stuff you seem to vote for. We haven't been sold that bill of goods yet...thank goodness.

They also openly burn witches and heretics; I wouldn't exactly call that a democracy. Plus, it's a pretty s****y nation in terms of just about everything (high disease rates, high poverty rates, high crime rates, high death rates).

Yeah. They do have their societal problems. But isn't it all relative? I don't know where you would stand within their caste system as a foreignor. But it's still better than the Islamic Republic you claim to be from IMO.

Not sure I'd like the Shintos much though or the government for that matter.

Again, a major cop out. Your nemesis Christians have no influence there and the laws are pretty much similar to ours in many ways.

It's just as much mine; again, I'm a citizen too. And it's not a nation founded upon Christian principles (hence, it's not a "Christian nation"). The Treaty of Tripoli made that much quite clear.

Face it. You live among a heavily populated Christian nation. And government is influenced by the values of the people here. Nothing you can do about it. Like it or not, you live by many laws influenced by Christian ideals. You like the laws? Great! Which ones?

In regards to the Treaty, there are people who take that Treaty in different ways. Your interpretation is currently being argued in many circles. So don't get too far ahead of yourself as to the actual meaning contained in Art.11. It certainly eliminates specific religious intent in the formation of the nation, however it does not eliminate a religious ideal. The language in this treaty is very much consistent with the notion of Congress making no laws promoting religion or prohibiting the free exercise of it.

The lack of them is what's stopping me, lol; the CIA World Factbook is displaying no democratic nations with an Atheist majority.

Of course not. Wonder why?

Perhaps you would like to enligthen us on these Atheists and godless societies who killed in the name of Atheism.

The suppression of religion all happened in the "paradise" nations of Mao's China, the Soviet Union, and several Southeast Asian countries. The commonality was that they were all communist, humanist, secular, and anti-God. Tens of millions perished in those societies. And the godless, secular, atheist North Korea of today ain't exactly user friendly. Merely speaking of the Gospels there is a death sentence.

[Rilder]

Of course not. Wonder why?Because its only in the last 10-20ish years you wouldn't get the **** beat out of you for not being christian?

Even Today, From what I've heard if your openly atheist in Israel you mise well just kiss your ass goodbye.

[Sea Demon]

Because its only in the last 10-20ish years you wouldn't get the **** beat out of you for not being christian?

Where has such an instance been routine in the last 200 years? Where? If in the USA, I'll need case studies from you. We do know that in 20th century statist societies, (read communist, secular, humanist, anti-God), those practicing the Christian faith were often oppressed and killed. And other faiths as well. I don't buy your post at all. It's utter nonsense. I don't believe what you described existed as the rule in any Western nation in the 20th century. Nor have I ever seen any evidence of it.

Even Today, From what I've heard if your openly atheist in Israel you mise well just kiss your ass goodbye.

Oh, so you've "heard". "Heard" from who? I dont buy it. Sounds like BS to me.

[Rilder]

Oh, so you've "heard". "Heard" from who? I dont buy it. Sounds like BS to me.

You mean an atheist living in Israel? He plays dwarf fortress, trustworthy enough for me.

[Stealth Hunter]

Yes, Kenya and the USA are comparable nations.

Well since both have a large Christian populace and similar government structure, yep. As far as this entire issue is concerned, they're comparable.

Also, this is an example of the exception to the rule. Wouldn't you agree? Seeing in how Africa is the basket case that it is.

Nope, considering that plenty of US Christians would be doing the same thing if it wasn't for the law; the Kenyans do try and stop these things but they often can't respond quickly enough. Not hard to believe, though, when you look at people like the Jesus Camp kids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac

No- of course these people are perfectly sane and natural and won't cause trouble with the law because of their beliefs. I mean, adults calling kids "phonies and hypocrites" is great for their minds!

Actually you loudly accuse Christians in America of being "iron fisted" when there is no such evidence that most American Christians are fanatics.

Well lets see- according to World Evangelical Alliance, there are roughly 420 million members of their church the world over. If you know anything about their lot, they're hardshells as I sometimes like to call them (fundamentalists and what would essentially constitute Bible fanatics, saying things like Earth is 6,000-years-old and the flood actually happened).

In the United States alone according to John C. Green's report (link: http://www.uakron.edu/bliss/docs/Religious_Landscape_2004.pdf), 26.3% of the United States' Christian population is in fact Evangelical, compared to Mainline Protestants at 16% and Catholics at 17.5%. So yes, demographically, Evangelical Christians (fundamentalists/fanatics) do make up the Christian majority. As such, the majority of American Christians can rightfully be considered fanatical in nature.

And I know the report is from 2004. Even so, there's no way the Christian demographics changed so much in 5 years that Evangelicals would no longer be the biggest group of them all. If you think that, I challenge you to find statistics to the contrary to counter the ones I provided.

Of course I never see you criticize the nutjob Mullahs from Iran who truly are butchers and iron fisted tyrranical rulers.

Of course I have. Didn't you see this post:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?searchid=599027&pp=25&page=4

06-13-2009, 09:48 AM
Iran Election Result (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=152697)
Views: 2,308
Posted By Stealth Hunter (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=228942)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon1.gif Don't forget the "beloved"... (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1116874#post1116874)

Don't forget the "beloved" Ayatollah.:nope:


I've looked into your posting history and don't see a thing. Not even recently during their "iron fisted" crackdown of your "former fellow countrymen".

Must've "accidentally" missed my post in that thread, right?

And I do have a life, you know. I'm not going to suddenly run on here every single time something is wrong in the real world and talk about it... unlike some people.

Since when do you think that most Christians think like this?

Since I saw the majority statistics on the number fundamentalist Evangelicals in the United States.

Every single Christian I know think these people are crazy.

Every single Christian I know thinks they are perfectly sane.:03:

Of course you live in an bubble.

That's ironic.

Haggard does not speak for Christians.

Speaks for 30 million of them... or spoke. Whatever manner you want to put it in. He certainly doesn't work as the head representative for the National Association of Evangelicals anymore, haha.

Even the people who were a part of his congregation find his acts repulsive.

Oh you mean his homosexual acts? Did you ever stop and think that was because he preached against homosexuals for years and years and then was revealed to be one (making him a massive hypocrite and phony)? No, you didn't. They loved him beforehand, and then they turned on him after they found out the truth. Haggard's people loved and still love nothing about gays. The Westboro Baptist Church is part of his old Association, actually, and you saw how they behaved if you watched the "GOD HATES F**S" YouTube video.

A total cop out. There are plenty of places for you to go to with similar laws to our own.

Please, I would love to hear of a few. Name them for me why don't you. I looked already but just can't seem to find the one.

Poor you. The funny thing is I see through your tripe here.

Of course you do... lol.:roll:

It certainly was founded upon the Christian ideals.

Was ". . .the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. . ." not clear enough? It states, quite specifically that it "IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION". IN ANY SENSE... that means ideals, principles, etc. Is it that hard?

It does not promote any specific faith.

Yep. I've acknowledged that for quite a while now. Plenty of people certainly do try to make it promote a specific faith however...:03:

It also doesn't prohibit the free exercise of religion Something you still need to learn.

I'm quite aware it doesn't thank you. When did I say that it did?

George Washington was an Episcopalian.

MARTHA Washington was an Episcopalian, and he would sometimes go out into town to church with her; he was . I suggest you read this article for further enlightenment on the matter:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html

Point being he certainly was not a Christian. A Dr. Moncure D. Conway wrote in the New York Times that:

"Augustine Washington, like most scholarly Virginians of his time, was a Deist. ... Contemporary evidence shows that in mature life Washington was a Deist, and did not commune, which is quite consistent with his being a vestryman. In England, where vestries have secular functions, it is not unusual for Unitarians to be vestrymen, there being no doctrinal subscription required for that office. Washington's letters during the Revolution occasionally indicate his recognition of the hand of Providence in notable public events, but in the thousands of his letters I have never been able to find the name of Christ or any reference to him."

Additionally, Rev. Dr. James Abercrombie (who knew Washington) wrote to Rev. Bird Wilson (an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York who wanted to know about Washington's beliefs) that:

"Sir, Washington was a Deist."

As was James Monroe.

Officially, he never did move out of the Episcopalian Church. HOWEVER, from the writings that survive of him, he was a Deist (he apparently was not one to talk much of the supernatural in his speeches or private notes, either).

Same with James Madison.

From a letter to Mr. William Bradford:

"I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of Religion or against temporal Enjoyments even the most rational and manly than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent Advocates in the cause of Christ, and I wish you may give in your Evidence in this way. . . Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize.."

John Adams was a biblical unitarian. etc.

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

I did some Googling and found this article on EarlyAmerica.com:

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Apparently, the document Adams signed made the United States' government officially secular in nature.

Ethan Allen from Reason - The Only Oracle of Man (written by him in 1784):

"In the circle of my acquaintance, (which has not been small,) I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism make me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not, strictly speaking, whether I am one or not, for I have never read their writings; mine will therefore determine the matter; for I have not in the least disguised my sentiments, but have written freely without any conscious knowledge of prejudice for, or against any man, sectary or party whatever; but wish that good sense, truth and virtue may be promoted and flourish in the world, to the detection of delusion, superstition, and false religion; and therefore my errors in the succeeding treatise, which may be rationally pointed out, will be readily rescinded.

By the public's most obedient and humble servant, Ethan Allen"

I believe the man was a Deist (he certainly had no objections to being called one), and furthermore, he pointed out quite clearly that he was not a Christian.

Benjamin Franklin in his autobiography:

"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist."

Thomas Paine in a letter to Andrew Dean:

"As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions and a history of bad times and bad men."


Thomas Jefferson:

"The Christian God is a being of terrific character -- cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."

John Quincy Adams on Thomas Jefferson:

"If not an absolute atheist, he had no belief in a future existence. All his ideas of obligation or retribution were bounded by the present life."

These men were steeped in the Christian faith.

Suuurree, lol.

Most had faith in God.

Just not the Christian god. So they weren't Christians.

And our founding documents and other historical government documents are riddled with statements referring to God.

Too bad not one ever specifically states the Christian god.

I can run for President LEGALLY...you cannot.

I wouldn't vote for you.:D

Then what's stopping you. Their laws are similar to ours as well.

You can't just decide to move to their nations willy-nilly and then get accepted right off the bat. You have to go fill out piles of paperwork, pay a s***load of money, pass naturalization tests, and THEN hope the government itself finds you appealing and accepts you.

I find it sad that you, a born citizen of the United States, knows so little of this.

Except they actually have the nanny state stuff you seem to vote for. We haven't been sold that bill of goods yet...thank goodness.

"Nanny State"? HA. Did you forget about Bush's Patriot Act which allowed the government to listen in on your private phone calls, browse through your Internet history, and arrest/detain you without formal charges as a suspected terrorist if you appeared suspicious to them?

And as far as "Nanny State" regulations on corporations are concerned, you have to regulate them. If you don't, they'll abuse the system to whatever ends they can. Ever read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle? The US would be just like that again... minus the large amount of industrial scandal since most of the people making what we use live in nations like China, Vietnam, Taiwan, India, and Mexico (corporations and their desires for extremely cheap, plentiful labor that consists in many cases of child workers).

Yeah. They do have their societal problems. But isn't it all relative?

Problems themselves are; the rates themselves are not.

Your nemesis Christians have no influence there and the laws are pretty much similar to ours in many ways.

Yeah! Because we ALSO have an emperor.:roll:

*Obama joke is certainly inbound*

Face it. You live among a heavily populated Christian nation.

I have "faced it", as you put it. Didn't you read the first part of the post in which I said: "The large Christian populace is something that just comes with it, and since I want to live here because of the laws, I'm going to have to put up with it for the moment..."

And government is influenced by the values of the people here.

But governed by similar desires and needs of those same people.

Nothing you can do about it.

Oh not me; I leave that to my senator and representatives in addition to my fellow political organizations that have more leverage than I do.:D

Like it or not, you live by many laws influenced by Christian ideals.

Despite the evidence I presented above to the contrary...:hmmm:

You like the laws? Great! Which ones?

Well the Separation of Church and State clause for one.

In regards to the Treaty, there are people who take that Treaty in different ways. Your interpretation is currently being argued in many circles.

As is yours.

So don't get too far ahead of yourself as to the actual meaning contained in Art.11.

The meaning is quite clear; ". . .the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". It's right there CLEAR AS CRYSTAL- WE ARE NOT NOR WERE WE EVER FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION OR ITS PRINCIPLES THEREOF. Furthermore, CONGRESS ratified it and made it an official document.

It certainly eliminates specific religious intent in the formation of the nation, however it does not eliminate a religious ideal.

I never said it eliminated religious ideals; my point quite simply was that it proves you wrong when you said that the formation of the nation revolved around/was influenced by Christianity.

The language in this treaty is very much consistent with the notion of Congress making no laws promoting religion or prohibiting the free exercise of it.

The treaty itself is worded in an equally eloquent manner, but the statement was quite clear: the nation was not "in any sense" founded on the Christian religion.

Of course not. Wonder why?

Because people would rather believe in magic and the supernatural than the idea that such things do not exist, making Atheists a minority and never giving them enough leverage or even a chance to make something equally as great or greater than a democracy like the United States as an example for a change.

The suppression of religion all happened in the "paradise" nations of Mao's China,

Yep.

the Soviet Union,

Yes, but it was repealed permanently by Stalin shortly thereafter.

and several Southeast Asian countries.

Yep.

'Course there was also plenty of oppression of nonreligious as well by religious folks, and if that wasn't enough they decided to often times go after other different religions.

The commonality was that they were all communist, humanist, secular, and anti-God. Tens of millions perished in those societies.

Communist: exactly why I'm against it.

Humanist: you mean hypocritical.

Secular: though Hitler's Germany certainly wasn't secular, and in addition to killing 21 million innocents (Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, "Darwinists", Atheists, and Balkans Residents; some figures put it as high as 30 million) , he also started the Second World War which ended up in killing 72 million others. Compare that to Stalin's 30-50 million killed, Pol Pot's 2 million, and Mao's 17 million; who killed more again? This is only talking 20th century history, too.

Anti-God: Atheism is a lack of belief, not a belief in disbelief. So if they were anti-god as you put it, they weren't actually Atheists. To be against something is to acknowledge that very something's existence.

[Sailor Steve]

I don't suppose it is in the interest of any religion for other religions/non-
religions to have freedom.
Whilst I agree that religious freedoms are often created by humanists,
secularists and fringe spiritualists/deists, I don't think it is fair to say that
no Christians have been instrumental in the formulation of modern
religious freedom.

There have been progressive Christians since Thomas Aquinas opened up
dogma to the scrutiny of the intellect.
Very true, in that people from all walks of life are involved in all types of endeavours, including campaigning for freedom. I merely meant to say it is wrong for Christian apologists to attempt to bolster their position by claiming that it was the Christian Church which is most responsible for religious freedom in society.

[Sailor Steve]

If you knew a damn thing about government, you would know that control is the left, and anarchy is the right. But you obviously don't. But I can't fault your ignorance other than to say, read a book and learn something. Just because you don't like one government on the left, doesn't mean you aren't left too! Friggen ridiculous!!! You made me laugh though! :D
Actually the term right-wing has traditionally included monarchists and nationalists, and has little or nothing to do with anarchy. And modern conservatives are hardly anarchists.

So, when you have educated yourself, come back and we can have a logical conversation. You are full of fire today though. It shows spirit! :yeah:
You have shown yourself to be fond of deriding others' education, yet you yourself rarely point to any sources or bother to construct any kind of true argument other than to proclaim yourself the winner. You often say things like "if you only read xxxx book on the subject...", when anyone with a real education knows that reading only one book is most often worse than having read none at all. When you can show that you've carefully studied every available source on a given subject, pro and con, then you'll be ready for a real discussion.

As to having "a logical conversation", what do you know of logic? I've never seen you use it in any debate here.

[Stealth Hunter]

If you knew a damn thing about government, you would know that control is the left, and anarchy is the right.

Lol, no. You got it backwards; Anarchists are almost always on the left since they do not follow nationalism, which almost always aligns itself on the right. You can Google the subject sometime if you want to. I'd recommend it for your sake.:up:

But you obviously don't.

Oh- there's irony in here again.

But I can't fault your ignorance other than to say, read a book and learn something.

My ignorance? Anarchists are most often Liberal, not Conservative (putting it broadly where Liberals = Left and Conservatives = Right). The whole principle of anarchy in its own right is a Liberal one at that. Anybody who studied politics in college knows that. You apparently didn't though.

Again, I would advise you use a political compass for future endeavours in this sort of topic because it's obvious you know little if anything of the substances that make up these sides; they're just words to you with no further meaning, and you do like to abuse them, don't you?

Hear the word "Liberal" and your rash judgement automatically draws a negative, close-minded conclusion about the matter and no further investigation is conducted (which I would assume stems from the manner in which you were brought up; no doubt a strongly Conservative household that was not open to any conflicting ideas with the Republican agenda; this is why I'm glad my parents didn't try to push their views on me). Hear the word "Conservative" and you'll fight for it no matter what (even if you have no idea what the issue is even about).

Typical Subman.:roll:

Just because you don't like one government on the left, doesn't mean you aren't left too!

Uh- I've said a bunch of times already before that I generally align myself with the left. Where have you been?

Friggen ridiculous!!!

Yes your attention span is indeed quite ridiculous.

You made me laugh though!

I chuckled a bit at this part, but then I stopped myself because there's nothing funny about ignorant people... unless they do/say something incredibly stupid out of said ignorance.:haha:

So, when you have educated yourself, come back and we can have a logical conversation.

Clearly I'm not the one who needs to be "educated"; the elements of this post by you alone (not to mention previous others) have demonstrated quite clearly that you almost all the time have little understanding of what you argue for or against. Steve explained quite clearly (I thank you, Steve BTW:salute:) what's your problem is (if one could cut corners and reduce it to only ONE problem, lol).

Additionally, this conversation has little to do with "logic"; it's about facts (like what is most often part of the Liberal/Conservative agenda, the number of deaths caused by Atheists/Christians in history, etc.). You just whip out words like that when you want to sound like the "winner" from being "correct" and "intelligent".

You are full of fire today though. It shows spirit!

Come back when you've actually gained enlightenment so you'll be more of a challenge and won't embarrass yourself on this issue again.

I suggest you start with the political compass; just trying to help.:up:

[Letum]

Why the death by quotes here?

[Stealth Hunter]

Why the death by quotes here?

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/funny-pictures-lol-squid.jpg