Just when the day couldnt get any better (Bismarck TF's)

[ltforce]

Well It was May 15 1941, U-123 sailed from Lorient to be a reconnaissance eye outside of Scapa flow to report to BDU if any Capital ships were leaving towards the North Atlantic to hunt the Bismarck....and this is how it happend....

May 20th, 18:30 first contact is made from the lookout on the bridge....2 large ships on the horizon!

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4910/sh3img6720091243560.png


http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9002/sh3img672009124346562.png


Prince of Whales hit by 2 torpedos and Hood also hit by 2.

Prince of Whales begins to list immediately to Port and Hood starts slowly sinking by the bow but it will take more to finish both ships off...


http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/7452/sh3img67200913349859.png


http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9546/sh3img6720091347984.png


Prince of Whales is hit with another fish fight between the funnels and slowly sinks by the stern....Hood is hit with another 2 fish right behind turret B and also between the funnels and goes down quite fast....

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9331/sh3img672009133155671.png


http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5548/sh3img672009133254250.png


U-123 now starts heading down the coast of Ireland to rendevous with KM Bismarck in Square BE (Exact square to be confirmed)

Just when U-123 thinks its going to be a nice calm return....on May 22nd there is a report of a TF due South of its position.....Interception course immidiatley.....Smoke on the horizon!! After a closer look the HMS Ark Royal and HMS Renwon spotted! 1 salvo of 2 fish fired at each ship, 1 hit on each ship heard.


http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/4885/sh3img672009164236483.png

First hit on Renown blew its bridge clean off!!!

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/2563/sh3img67200916520671.png


http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/2231/sh3img672009165234874.png


After evading the escorts and making it to 8km at 180M when the 3 Destroyers left U-123 returned and finished off both ships with 1 fish each....

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4053/sh3img672009173436890.png


http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3013/sh3img672009173641921.png


http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/9872/sh3img672009173755390.png


In all Honesty I couldnt believe I ran into the second task force, the hood and Prince of Whales I expected to run into since I was waiting off the Western approachs to Scapa but running into the Ark Royal and Renown was complete luck!!

This was played on 90% realism ( Exterior camera for screenies only) and it was my first time playing without weapons officer assistance....hence a few misses here and there.

Hope you enjoyed!!

[mookiemookie]

"Be More Agressive!" :arrgh!:

[dvdk87]

Dam, that's nuts. Nice shooting skills Capt.

[meduza]

Well done, Herr Kaleun! :arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

You do realise you have singlehandedly changed the course of history!!.....Dont You!! http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pissedoff.gif

BTW....the RN would be very appreciative if you would stop calling one of their capital ships a 'Whale' http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/wacko.gif

@Mookie......Ya cheeky bugga http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/badwerewolf.gif

http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/whistle.gif

[BulSoldier]

Youve oblitared pride of the british navy... lol :up:

[mookiemookie]

@Mookie......Ya cheeky bugga http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/badwerewolf.gif



:rotfl:When I was typing that, I was thinking "hah, now what's jimbuna going to say?"

[VirtualVikingX]

NICE work, dude!

[ltforce]

You do realise you have singlehandedly changed the course of history!!.....Dont You!! http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pissedoff.gif

BTW....the RN would be very appreciative if you would stop calling one of their capital ships a 'Whale' http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/wacko.gif

@Mookie......Ya cheeky bugga http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/badwerewolf.gif

http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/whistle.gif

Haha I didnt even notice the miss spelling of the Prince of Wales (Im from Canada not England hahaha I dont know their provinces) I just spelt it as I would a whale haha but thanks for noticing.

Yes clearly this would have changed things in history, The Suffolk and Norfolk would probably have continued to track it and maybe avoided some painful convoy battles by radioing its position but either way what a mess this would have caused!!! Which carrier would have flown off aircraft to Malta in its time of need??? That would have been the 3rd RN carrier sunk since 1939(correct me if im wrong...HMS Courageous, and Glourious before it) The Prince of Wales would have not have gone to the Indian ocean with the Repulse (eventhough they were both sunk by that japanese anyways.) The RN would have had to rely on its WW1 vintage BB's and the Nelson class's to get everything done, since the KGV was the only ship in the King George V class ready....Duke of York(November 41), Anson and Howe were only comissioned in 1942!!! Maybe the Germans would have also sortied the Tirpitz since most of the RN's most powerful ships would have been out of commision....

I enjoy playing this game and thinking wow if this really happend...what would the war have been like!!

Hope you enjoyed the pics....they seem small I wonder if I should resize?

[Torplexed]

I enjoy playing this game and thinking wow if this really happend...what would the war have been like!!

It's fun and interesting to speculate. :hmm2: After a British naval disaster like this my guess is that Uncle Sam may have come to the rescue. During the actual war the US fleet carrier Ranger was loaned to the Royal Navy for a time. With US still neutral I wouldn't have surprised if she would have been offered under Lend-Lease given a full-blown British naval emergency. I can also imagine US battleships starting to escort convoys earlier and more aggressively than they did previously under the terms of the Neutrality Patrol. Who knows? We could have an interesting battle pitting the Bismarck versus the North Carolina.

Tirpitz had a lot of teething problems and was still on sea trials in the Baltic well into 1941. As a consequence she wasn't deployed to Norway until early 1942. The Germans could have rushed her into action, but may have run into the same problems the British did with the Prince of Wales.

[ltforce]

It's fun and interesting to speculate. :hmm2: After a British naval disaster like this my guess is that Uncle Sam may have come to the rescue. During the actual war the US fleet carrier Ranger was loaned to the Royal Navy for a time. With US still neutral I wouldn't have surprised if she would have been offered under Lend-Lease given a full-blown British naval emergency. I can also imagine US battleships starting to escort convoys earlier and more aggressively than they did previously under the terms of the Neutrality Patrol. Who knows? We could have an interesting battle pitting the Bismarck versus the North Carolina.

Tirpitz had a lot of teething problems and was still on sea trials in the Baltic well into 1941. As a consequence she wasn't deployed to Norway until early 1942. The Germans could have rushed her into action, but may have run into the same problems the British did with the Prince of Wales.


I think the Prince of Wales was only sent out with the hood to intimidate the Bismarck...even though that didn't work at all....most of her armament wasn't even in working condition and was still being worked on by the contractors....As for Bismarck vs North Carolina....I think it would go in favor of the Bismarck...but Bismarck vs Iowa class would be very close and very interesting!!

As for the Tirpitz I meant a little later on in the war I knew she was only ready in the spring of 1942, she was actually in the Baltic doing her sea trials in the summer of 41....It was the loss of the Bismarck that ended North Atlantic runs for the KM with surface ships.

[ryanglavin]

is this mod sh3 commander? because if it is, this is gonna be the first thing i'm going to do tommorow (that is, downloading sh3 commander).:arrgh!:

[ltforce]

no just GWX 3.0

[PavelKirilovich]

My speculation is that with Kriegsmarine convoy raiding made possible by surface ships in the Atlantic, not just the rudeltaktik wolfpacks, the Soviets may very well have been pushed back beyond the Ural mountains. Moscow almost certainly would have been put to the torch (whatever was left to burn) before being given over the Germans, and we would have seen another RKKA army destroyed in a massive battle of annihilation in its defence.

The most significant Lend-Lease aid was not warplanes (Such as the P-39 Airacobra or P-40 Warhawk) or tanks (M4 Sherman, once refitted with a Russian 76.2mm gun is apparently quite a good machine until 1943), but rations, bolts of cloth, and trucks. The entirety of Russian industry was given over to producing the weapons of war, to the detriment of the logistics side which needed every Studebaker truck it could get its hands on. Uniforms were made with Canadian and American cloth. Canadian grain and American meat went overseas in tremendous quantities to make up for the lost agricultural potential of the USSR and Britain, as they had mobilized so much of their male population that many farms were down to literally just a handful of people, either not of fighting age or infirm.

KMS Bismarck and similar warships getting in amongst any of the PQs would have raised merry Hell with this. Combined with a solid offensive the East, the USSR might have collapsed. The Germans were very, very good as this sort of strategic-operational coordination and without that flood of supplies through the back door Hitler's idiocy and the fawning retardation of the General Staff would have made up for a large number of deficiencies.

Edit: I just forgot to mention the obvious. ltforce, bloody nice work. A Knight's Cross for you and your crew, certainly, probably with some sort of made up attachment specifically in your honour to go with the oak leaves, swords, and diamonds.

[Torplexed]

KMS Bismarck and similar warships getting in amongst any of the PQs would have raised merry Hell with this. Combined with a solid offensive the East, the USSR might have collapsed. The Germans were very, very good as this sort of strategic-operational coordination and without that flood of supplies through the back door Hitler's idiocy and the fawning retardation of the General Staff would have made up for a large number of deficiencies.

Don't forget that the PQ convoys weren't the only supply route to Russia. About 50% of the Lend-Lease aid to the Soviet Union was via the Pacific Ocean through Vladivostok and the Alaska-Siberia air corridor. In addition, there was the overland route through Persia which accounted for another 25%. Plus, aside from the PQ-17 debacle, the German surface fleet didn't exactly have a enviable wartime record even on those rare occasions when they came to grips with an arctic convoy. The best example being the unsuccessful attack on convoy JW-51B, the so-called Battle of the Barents Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Barents_Sea)where a superior German surface fleet was bamboozled and chased off by a smaller British force. This embarrassing defeat led to Hitler demanding the big surface ships be scrapped and Admiral Raeder tending his resignation. It was at this point that Admiral Doenitz got the job as C-in-C of the German Navy. The defeat pointed out that were some serious deficiencies in the German navy that weren't just material.

My guess in this scenario is that the Bismarck and her sisters at some point in the war would have eventuality met their actual WW2 nemesis in the form of lots of planes. I've always been of the opinion that had she survived her first sortie and made it safely to Brest she not only would have received a hero's welcome by Hitler but also the loving attention of RAF Bomber Command while anchored there even if they had to forgo bombing German cities to do it. That's ultimately why the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau were pulled out of there. They were just slowly getting battered by aerial nuisance raids and you can't fit a battleship in a U-Boat bunker.

[ltforce]

I completely forgot the put this hahah

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5540/sh3img67200918143077p.png

Thank you for your kind words PavelKirilovich.

You are both right on this one and I must go with torplexed on this one as soon as the Bismarck would have arrived in Brest, the RAF would have let the KM get the ship on the dry dock....and then have bombed into next millennium....but then again not sure how well that would have worked since they bombed the Tirpitz on many occasions and it took them 2 years to actually sink it.

[Lt.Fillipidis]

If that actually happened in WW2, that would be a massive blow for the RN indeed.
Anyway, Good work! :yeah:

[Hanomag]

Outstanding work Herr Kaluen!! Congratulations!! :salute:

[Jimbuna]

You've just brought Britain to her knees 4 years earlier then anticipated http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Heffalump]

Good thing you got that torpedo boat! :salute:

[ltforce]

Good thing you got that torpedo boat! :salute:


:shifty:

[PavelKirilovich]

Don't forget that the PQ convoys weren't the only supply route to Russia. About 50% of the Lend-Lease aid to the Soviet Union was via the Pacific Ocean through Vladivostok and the Alaska-Siberia air corridor. In addition, there was the overland route through Persia which accounted for another 25%. Plus, aside from the PQ-17 debacle, the German surface fleet didn't exactly have a enviable wartime record even on those rare occasions when they came to grips with an arctic convoy. The best example being the unsuccessful attack on convoy JW-51B, the so-called Battle of the Barents Sea where a superior German surface fleet was bamboozled and chased off by a smaller British force. This embarrassing defeat led to Hitler demanding the big surface ships be scrapped and Admiral Raeder tending his resignation. It was at this point that Admiral Doenitz got the job as C-in-C of the German Navy. The defeat pointed out that were some serious deficiencies in the German navy that weren't just material.

My guess in this scenario is that the Bismarck and her sisters at some point in the war would have eventuality met their actual WW2 nemesis in the form of lots of planes. I've always been of the opinion that had she survived her first sortie and made it safely to Brest she not only would have received a hero's welcome by Hitler but also the loving attention of RAF Bomber Command while anchored there even if they had to forgo bombing German cities to do it. That's ultimately why the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau were pulled out of there. They were just slowly getting battered by aerial nuisance raids and you can't fit a battleship in a U-Boat bunker.


I agree with you in part. The trans-Pacific supply route is valuable thanks to Japanese apathy; for some reason the Japanese never seemed to do much - if anything - to interdict this line of supply. However, the extremely limited lines of communication in this part of Russia make it difficult to relocate supplies once offloaded from Vladivostok and similar ports to the fighting fronts further West. Operation AUGUST STORM was a masterpiece of operational and strategic planning in a large part because in 1945, the Soviets achieved an immense buildup of supplies and materiel without over-stressing the available LOCs in the area of operations. This kind of effort cannot be applied while the Germans are literally pounding down the front door (prior to 1942-43) and so the value of the Pacific route is balanced by the bottleneck caused by a paucity of viable LOCs to relocate these supplies to where they're needed.

Good point regarding the overland via-Persia route. More expensive in terms of moving supplies, but it does the job. Only the entry of Turkey into the war on the side of the Axis, or significant successes by the DAK (precluded by appointing Rommel as a commander there, in my opinion), would have been able to affect this.

I don't see how the Battle of the Barents Sea proves that the Kriegsmarine were significantly deficient in a training and tactics sense to the Royal Navy. As is noted in the link you supplied, the battle was fought during the polar night, presenting significant IFF and CIC difficulties for both forces. Eckholdt and Richard Beitzen's mistake is perhaps the most egregious case of "ACH SCHEISSE" I've ever seen regarding the KM. The Germans didn't press home an attack as they should have and gone for a decisive victory, but like any other navy during WWII they are being very chary with their capitol ships. The Royal Navy missed many such opportunities in the Mediterranean, as did the Italians, as did the Japanese, and the Americans.

You forget that while Operation Rheinubung is underway the RAF is suffering significant losses during "fighter sweeps" of the French Atlantic coast and that bombing raids are exceedingly costly; hence the implementation of night bombing techniques by the RAF. I agree that RAF Fighter Command, Bomber Command, and probably Coastal Command as well would have thrown everything they had against docked capitol ships in the French ports, but the Luftwaffe was still quite capable, at this time, of deploying an effective fighter screen to severely attrit both the numbers and the effectiveness of any deployed bomber force. As was noted earlier, it took the RAF a lot of tries to eventually kill Tirpitz, and she had less protection than the Bismarck and her accompanying ships would have had given the times.

Assuming that the RN just lost significant combat power as the ficticious patrol by U-123 here demonstrates, it's probable that further convoy attacks would have been successful, particularly when the striking force is built around something like Bismarck. A strong destroyer screen to protect the capitol from enemy destroyers, enabling the capitol to engage targets which need engaging (cruisers, etc) and once the RN has removed itself from the equation by seeking to drive off the Kriegsmarine force attacking the convoy, the convoy is left vulnerable to being very rapidly destroyed.

[Torplexed]

You forget that while Operation Rheinubung is underway the RAF is suffering significant losses during "fighter sweeps" of the French Atlantic coast and that bombing raids are exceedingly costly; hence the implementation of night bombing techniques by the RAF. I agree that RAF Fighter Command, Bomber Command, and probably Coastal Command as well would have thrown everything they had against docked capitol ships in the French ports, but the Luftwaffe was still quite capable, at this time, of deploying an effective fighter screen to severely attrit both the numbers and the effectiveness of any deployed bomber force. As was noted earlier, it took the RAF a lot of tries to eventually kill Tirpitz, and she had less protection than the Bismarck and her accompanying ships would have had given the times.

Indeed, the Tirpitz has acquired a formidable reputation for the way she stood up to air attacks, but I feel part of the reason she survived so many is because the topography of the Norwegian fjord she was anchored in provided a superb natural defense against air attack. It was all but impossible to aim a bomb or torpedo when she was nestled under the steep side of the fjord behind nets and smokescreens, and the story of the many attacks on her is really the story of attempts to overcome the twin problems of geography and distance given how far north and remote Altenfjord was from most Allied bases. The Sept. 15th, 1944 Lancaster raid that finally damaged her with 12,000 lb. "Tallboy" bombs was staged from a Russian airfield after many months of wrangling for Stalin's consent to do it. When she was towed south to Tromso for repairs that put her in easier range of bomber bases in Scotland, and in November the Lancasters quickly finished the job they had started two months earlier.

In any case, a fun site to check out is http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/. It's a forum where they discuss all things Bismarck (and her sister and half-sisters) They also have a section devoted to hypothetical and what-if naval scenarios (Bismarck sailing with the Tirpitz, Bismarck vs USS Iowa, HMS Vanguard, Space Aliens that sort of thing) Okay...I made up the part about space aliens. :DL

[PavelKirilovich]

Torplexed: That is a favourite site of mine. I'll have to join the forums sometime soon. I take it you're a member?

Altenfjord did provide superb protection against low level attacks but as you demonstrated yourself, high altitude bombing raids were successful. The Lancs were able to score hits with the Tallboy, and then when she was towed south she was destroyed by further high altitude raids. Given the context of the times, despite Bismarck being an easier target in the Channel Ports she'd still be much better protected than Tirpitz was in a situation analogous to the "Battle of Britain in Reverse"; whereby the British fighters are low on fuel and have to disengage early, potentially before the bombers reach the target area. German radar is superior to what the Allies have until 1942-43. They will have raid warning and the benefit of ground-controlled intercept.

And, by the way, the Bismarck can totally take the little grey dudes. :03:

[Torplexed]

Torplexed: That is a favourite site of mine. I'll have to join the forums sometime soon. I take it you're a member?

No...I'm still a lurker. I've already got more forum memberships than I can handle. :) I've always been fascinated by the naval hypotheticals sections tho.

[ltforce]

And, by the way, the Bismarck can totally take the little grey dudes. :03:


Personally I think the Bismarck could take any battleship ever made in a one on one fight. The Yamato may have had more Armour but it had a huge weakness between its upper and lower armour belts right at the waterline which....is where most aircraft launched torpedoes would hit. The japanese also used inferior metals comparings to the Krupp Cement armour.

As for the Iowa class, when the bismarck was built the armour was slanted and designed to be almost invincible between 11000 and 21000 yards and at point blank range could withstand numerous 16inch shells (Iowa and Nelson class). We all know invincible doesnt exist but it was very very strong. Compared to all other battleships ever made the Bismark's hull was 70% armour covered compared to many other battleships which were 60% or less.

Its upper deck armour was 50-80 mm....most battleships had none and the ones that did had usually 30mm or less. If we compare Amour per ton, Bismarck has more than any other ship except the Richelieu which is about the same.

Its 8 15inch/L52 main guns had a max range of 38 800 yds, were effective to 35 500yds and were EXTREMELY accurate. Only problem was the Gunnery radar was was effective to 25 000 yds, eventhough its gunnery radar was knocked out after the first shots fired at the Hood(correct me if im wrong) It still had 2 more gunnery radars incase this event happend.

Personally out of all battleships ever made I find it would go

1: Bismark class (Powerful, Well Armed and Very well designed)
2: Iowa class (very close to Bismrck when I do all comparisons)
3: Yamato Class (Armed to the T but had many design flaws and poor metals)
4: Nelson (Lacked speed)
5: Richilieu (If you knock out 1 main turret there goes half your main guns.)
6: KGV (Designed with max tonnage of 36000 {treaty of Verseille} but for the limits it had it was a very well built ship)

There will always be some discussion on this and I dont know everything but after reading many books on naval warefare and world war 2 since I was 10 y/o (now 22) These are my results. Every ship has always had flaws such as Bismarcks 3 shaft design which sealed its fate and lack of ability to drop the rudder should it be damaged.

What do you guys think your list would be?? I'd like a nice professional and polite disscusion about it.

[Torplexed]

The Combined Fleet site did an extensive article on this very subject once.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

Makes for fascinating reading, but it's one of those things that can be debated forever since there are myriad factors involved in any naval battle beyond thickness of armor and caliber of guns. Best example being the Yamato which in her only surface naval engagement off Samar was steered out of the path of torpedoes and took so long to get back into the action that she accounted for almost nothing in the battle. The old Kongo class battleships contributed more to the Japanese war effort than the 'mighty' Yamatos ever did.

[ltforce]

After reading that for 5 seconds they clearly didnt do much research they just said ohh look this ship has this much armour lets give it a 10 if it has more than the other....theres many factors that come into play when comparing....just the quality of the metals used for the armour could change everything.

[Torplexed]

After reading that for 5 seconds they clearly didnt do much research they just said ohh look this ship has this much armour lets give it a 10 if it has more than the other....theres many factors that come into play when comparing....just the quality of the metals used for the armour could change everything.

You have to click the 'detailed information' link under each category like guns or armour to get their rationalizations.

[ltforce]

You have to click the 'detailed information' link under each category like guns or armour to get their rationalizations.

I think they are full of crap, they are clearly Americans who only like American products....Like those people who only buys crappy American cars hahaha. I think that entire site should be re-done because all I read was a bunch of crap there....

Just here in the armour for example...


Face-hardened: average quality. U.S. homogeneous:Best in the world.
For the Iowa

and

Very good
For the Bismarck

Krupp cement Armour was probably one of the best in the entire War.

I quote this from Kbismarck.com which i have been reading for over 2 years.

Post WWII proving ground test indicated that KC was only slightly less resistant than British cemented armour (CA), and markedly superior to US Class A plates.

In modern day there is depleted uranium and such but back then the Germans and the British had the highest quality and best metals. The Germans have always had the highest of standards for manufacturing and building.

I also read this stupid sentence.

Bismarck also suffered from the poorest belt armor of the lot.

Bismarck had more armour per ton than almost any other ship, notably more than the Iowa class and Yamato.

Iowa weighed 48 110 tons empty and had 18 700 tons of armour while the Bismarck weighed 41 700 tons and have 17 540 tons of armour

I also noticed they said the Bismarcks belt armour had no inclination

12.6" @
vertical

it infact had a 17 degree inclination.

The belt armour also covered 70% of the waterline compared to the Yamato and Iowa which were 60% or less for the other battleships...

These guys are just pissed that it was so good and they wanted their American ships to be the best....I think they are full of crap. They are clearly American biased and ruined the entire site!!



Edit: after reading through the entire site and going and checking through my collection of WW2 naval books on Battleships...these guys didnt get many facts straight, I'm not impressed and think that site is complete garbage.

[Ancient Mariner]

Personally I feel the Bismark would've had most of the allied battleships in a one on one but as history proves her greatest flaw was the "over "engineering that the Germans were so well renowned for. She still remains my favorite surface vessel

[PavelKirilovich]

ltforce

When I said "can totally take the little grey dudes" I was talking about grey aliens, not other battleships. :) Nonetheless, I'll comment on some of the things that have been posited here.

While Bismarck's 381mm rifles were exceptionally accurate and fired pretty good ammunition, the reason you opt for larger guns (16" and 18" rifles on Iowas, some British ships, and Yamato) is physics: bigger projectile moving faster (bigger chamber area and pressures, etc) creates more energy on target, resulting in better penetration characteristics. Given the targets of the era, Bismarck was superbly armed and demonstrated good gunnery techniques and skills on the parts of her gunnery and fire director crews. No reason she can't beat up on enemy battleships, particularly those capitols who don't subscribe to "All or Nothing" protection (more on this in a minute) and/or those constructed of US plate or Japanese plate.

"All or Nothing" protection is the concept of armouring aspects of the ship so well that they cannot be destroyed using reasonable force and it takes a significant effort to destroy them. Everything else is much more lightly armoured. For example, the command room, the magazines, the turrets, the engine spaces, and the driveshafts are well protected. The crew quarters, secondary and tertiary armaments, the communications systems, etc, are not. The Bismarck was superbly armoured. Her mission critical areas (command and control, primary batteries, and magazines for said primary batteries) are protected in such a way that they can take numerous point blank direct 16" APBC hits and keep functioning. The rest of the ship may be dead, but she'll keep punching you back until her magazines are flooded. Because of how the belt, deck, and torpedo bulging is set up, the Bismarck demonstrates superb armour coverage and depth in the appropriate areas.

In terms of metallurgy, the Germans fielded some incredible materials for the Bismarck and Tirpitz. They have superb toughness and hardness, which is a very difficult balance to get in terms of armour materials. When you harden something, it gives less. Because it gives less, it breaks more easily, because it can't bend to absorb energy. However, entirely ductile metals (ones that bend well) are easily perforated in high energy events, so you need a combination of the two principles. Hence layering the armour and varying the steels used in the layers, and the concept of face-hardening. The Germans did this superbly, and in my opinion the only people who can compete with them in this field are the British. I don't have the skills to lay out exact metallurgical compositions and explain how the differences will cause them to compare, but take it at face value that in terms of armour toughness, Bismarck will be shrugging off hits that would have shattered Iowa's or Yamato's plates.

Don't confuse armour quantity with the quality of the belt. Bismarck's belt design is superb. She will be decapping and shrugging off hits left right and centre, and in her final fight with a number of capitols, she was reduced to a blazing hulk but continued to fight because of her superb armour design. Personnel inside the belt remained alive long enough to abandon the ship when the order came, and there is no evidence that the Royal Navy was able to shoot through her belt armour and thus sink the vessel. She was scuttled. I believe Ballard did a check on that and did not find evidence of the belt being penetrated.

In any sort of American-funded or -published "Top Tens" list, and oddly only the Americans seem to be fascinated with that sort of thing, you can expect the American designs to place very highly for one of two reasons:
i) They're being compared to dissimilar technology, for instance M1A1 HA versus T-72S in Operation DESERT STORM
ii) They're whitewashing flaws in the American equipment or are simply ignorant and using the Wikipedia entries to compare equipment.
This sort of intellectual dishonesty has perpetuated to the current day and age and is best manifested in the F-35 JSF program. It is a damn-near-useless airplane that has already been accepted into service despite not having yet passed all of its service trials and is being marketed as being "the same as F-22 but cheaper". This is clearly bull****. I consider it symptomatic of the same sort of thinking that generates these "Top Ten" lists. But I digress.

[ltforce]

ii) They're whitewashing flaws in the American equipment or are simply ignorant and using the Wikipedia entries to compare equipment.
This sort of intellectual dishonesty has perpetuated to the current day and age and is best manifested in the F-35 JSF program. It is a damn-near-useless airplane that has already been accepted into service despite not having yet passed all of its service trials and is being marketed as being "the same as F-22 but cheaper". This is clearly bull****. I consider it symptomatic of the same sort of thinking that generates these "Top Ten" lists. But I digress.

You summed it all up by this one sentence and you also have the patience to type everything up. I couldn't have said it any better than you in those
4 paragraphs. I must say I did not learn anything new since I have done hours and hours of research into the German, British and American navies in world war 2...(not so much the Japanese). I thank you for being educated and not dumb and ignorant like most people who would pull the everything American is better card. Every show on the Military channel or discovery always has something American in first....P-51?? Definitely not the best fighter of the war the Yak 3 or KI84 could have flown circles around it....and so on and so forth I'm not going to go through every crappy American biased top 10 show Ive ever seen but we get the drift...

Have a great day.

Ltforce

P.S. HAHAH I thought you meant the little grey dudes were british battleship....woops

[PavelKirilovich]

To be fair, the "Top Ten Tanks" that's aired on The Military Channel has the Leopard 2A6 in the number one slot because unlike the M1A1/M1A2, it is in widespread service and because it fits a weapon superior to the L/44 120mm fitted to the Abrams. They then show the Swedish Strv-122 instead of the Leo 2A6, which is a similar vehicle, but the keyword there is similar.

Since you've studied the Royal Navy, you know how important the fighting in the Mediterranean was. Have a look at Regia Marina.net (http://www.regiamarina.net/) here and continue to learn. The Italians had some good warships. Not great, but good. And when you think the Germans were operating under a fuel shortage, it was nothing compared to the shortage the Italians had to deal with.

[ltforce]

I must say the Leopard II and the Merkava have to be some of the best tanks produced today!!! The Abrams is great but its getting pretty old and its fuel consumption is completely ridiculous!!!! 0.5 mpg and takes 8 gallons just to start...yes I know its a turbine engine don't worry....I saw some leopard I's when I was doing my SQ and Inf course at Valcartier and they are sweet!!!

When it comes to WW2 the Americans and British made pretty useless tanks until at least 1944. The Panther and T34/85 have to be some of the best of the war!! I could go on forever about tanks....tiger,panzer IV's, KV1's....but I would much rather discuss ships!!

Thanks for the site, I'll check it out tommorow. I just got my newest book in the mail 10 mins ago. Corvettes of the Royal Canadian Navy!!! Looks amazing!! Has a complete index with at least 1 picture per ship, where they were built, their fate and a complete in depth into their construction, modernizations and everything!!! I think you may enjoy it.

[Anubis2k24]

Nice... this is epic... y can't I ever get this lucky?

[PavelKirilovich]

ltforce

Sounds like a superb book. Which Regiment are you with? Leopard 1 is a nice vehicle but was very badly outdated, I'm very happy to see the newer 2A4s in service and the 2A6Ms working out in Afghanistan. Superb tanks.

I was aboard Sackville when I was but a wee thing with the NLCC. Even then I knew enough about how ships would handle underway to know I'd not want to be aboard her in the Atlantic. Massive amounts of respect for the dudes who managed to pull that off.

[ltforce]

I was with RMR for 3 years. I too am happy about the new 2A4's and 2A6's being used, its about time!!!


I have been on the Sackville at least 7 times, every year that I go to visit my aunt in Halifax, I always go aboard and it never gets old. I also go to Mcnabs island which is amazing always some hidden gun battery in the woods to find, I walked 25 km at least while I was there....I even found hidden WW1 Search lights, Its so amazing to see all that untouched history. I have also been to the York Redoubt which was on the opposite side where the subnet connected with the search lights and gun emplacements. I must say it is bloody amazing, you should go somtime, I think I may go down again either this summer or next.

[Jimbuna]

The Leopard is a really fantastic piece of equipment :up:

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/LEOPARD2A6-BIG-08.jpg

[ltforce]

The Leopard is a really fantastic piece of equipment :up:

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/LEOPARD2A6-BIG-08.jpg

And the CF is smart enough to buy em:DL

[PavelKirilovich]

Jimbuna: The fprado/armorsite website is a good resource on the tanks that it lists. They even did a solid job on T-90. Which is rare, to see Russian equipment evaluated accurately.

ltforce: I have relatives in that province. Next time I'm visiting, I will check those spots out. I walk the Batteries and Cape Spear here pretty frequently, good 25km jaunt out to Cape Spear and around it. Also nice sites, but Cape Spear is hard to imagine as a gun battery at times.

[ltforce]

I took a look at Cape Spear, looks really interesting....do you have any pictures?? Are the underground tunnels accessible?? I always love looking at WW2 history, always fascinates me, to think wow what was this like when it was in use.:DL

[PavelKirilovich]

I don't have any photos, sorry. Some of the connecting structures are still there; but there aren't any completely subterranean tunnels accessible. The site is in a pretty bad state of disrepair save for the lighthouses up top; but people still wander the gun emplacements, fire director, and barracks rooms.