My theory about us Sim captains

[Kloef]

He sailors:)

bear with me i've been thinking about this alot...

Some of us have years of experience sailing submarines trough the virtual world,we learn all the tricks know all the moves,know all the sounds.Apart from leadership and personal experience you could say some of us are pretty good at it.

Maybe a strange comparison,the simulated over the real thing but technically you make the same technical/tactical decisions..and the results are the same.......sunken tonnage!

So to conclude my question is:

Purely on the decision making part and the tactical moves are we any good in comparison with real Wo2 sub captains?



So i was wondering what you guys think about that.

[Rockin Robbins]

No, your life isn't in danger, so there are no similarities between your decisions and a real U-Boat captain's decisions. You also don't have individual crew members with various strengths and weaknesses, so your command decisions have no relationship with the command decisions of a real U-Boat captain.

That's only the beginning but I'll leave the rest for others to abuse you with.:har:

[SteamWake]

I think it would be safe to say that a game is a far sight easier than real life :haha:

[Torplexed]

My answer would be an unequivocal no. We're good at playing a game that maybe simulates maybe a tiny percentage of what went into being a real WW2 sub captain. We have way more control over the situation than a real captain would. Everything on our sub always works perfectly and crew always does their job. We don't have to worry about distractions like navigational errors, spoiled food, sea-sickness, stench, contaminated water, stifling humidity, numbing cold, leadership, morale, short circuits, responsibility for our crew's well-being, and about a million other details. We can take a break, quit the game anytime we wish and go for a walk or watch TV. We never have to deal with the myriad human and mechanical problems of a real submarine from a troublesome crew member to a broken down bilge pump for which the spare parts have gone missing all of which eventually have a bearing on your tactical decisions. We never have to deal with seeing a burned and blacken corpse float by for which we are responsible. Not to mention that the AI is only a shadow of what the real enemy would be like. I'd be embarrassed to even attempt to compare myself to a real submarine captain....and I'm glad it's just a game.

[Rockin Robbins]

Arrrrrrrr! Whip him without mercy~!:03:

Also, in real life you wouldn't have sarcastic hecklers like us questioning your every utterance........maybe you would!:haha:

[Dread Knot]

I guess I look at it this way. I'm pretty good at playing Paintball. I wonder if that means I would make a decent platoon leader.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. No.

[Armistead]

He sailors:)

bear with me i've been thinking about this alot...

Some of us have years of experience sailing submarines trough the virtual world,we learn all the tricks know all the moves,know all the sounds.Apart from leadership and personal experience you could say some of us are pretty good at it.

Now i'm gonna be bold,with all this experience we have are we actually better then they were at their time?Alot of us have more hours at the controls then any u-boot captain would ever attain in a career!

Maybe a strange comparison,the simulated over the real thing but technically you make the same technical/tactical desisions..and the results are the same.......sunken tonnage!

So to conclude my question is:

Purely on the desision making part and the tactical moves are we any good in comparison with real Wo2 sub captains?



So i was wondering what you guys think about that.

You're not being serious are you? Please say you're not. If this theory were somehow true, just think
of the possibilities....endless.

The only thing funnier than this thread would be someone trying to explain to you the differences in complete detail.

[Armistead]

He sailors:)

bear with me i've been thinking about this alot...

Some of us have years of experience sailing submarines trough the virtual world,we learn all the tricks know all the moves,know all the sounds.Apart from leadership and personal experience you could say some of us are pretty good at it.

Now i'm gonna be bold,with all this experience we have are we actually better then they were at their time?Alot of us have more hours at the controls then any u-boot captain would ever attain in a career!

Maybe a strange comparison,the simulated over the real thing but technically you make the same technical/tactical desisions..and the results are the same.......sunken tonnage!

So to conclude my question is:

Purely on the desision making part and the tactical moves are we any good in comparison with real Wo2 sub captains?



So i was wondering what you guys think about that.

I guess I look at it this way. I'm pretty good at playing Paintball. I wonder if that means I would make a decent platoon leader.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. No.

With all the time I've spent play Tiger Woods Golf, I guess this means I can beat Tiger Woods.:haha:

[Buddahaid]

I think both posits given here have validity. While it true we don't have the level of complexity in actuality, we also don't play in real-time. Many of the tasks, such as navigation, are very complex with all the variables we simply take for granted as done to save time.

Buddahaid

[Kloef]

Also, in real life you wouldn't have sarcastic hecklers like us questioning your every utterance........maybe you would!I dont mind its just fun to read the reactions!


I'd be embarrassed to even attempt to compare myself to a real submarine captain....and I'm glad it's just a game. I dont compare myself to the real thing,its just something i think about and want to share thoughts on,you will never see me wear a T-shirt with " i'm a subsim-captain " and yes its a game i can shut off,pause or replay...

You're not being serious are you? not really its just an idea..


The only thing funnier than this thread would be someone trying to explain to you the differences in complete detail. i think someone just did:haha:

Funny the paintball theory....but its not nearly the same and Tiger Woods had eye surgery so he doesnt count:har:

[Armistead]

I didn't think you were serious, but threads just fun for the reactions often don't go well.:03:

[Mr.O'Bannon]

I bet there are more then a couple potentially great WWII subdrivers on this forum.

[Task Force]

yea, some of us would be pretty good, (not the 700,000 tons that some of us have gotten in acouple of years.) but good.:yep:

[sunvalleyslim]

In true life I got to be a Torpedoman on a Fleet Boat (USS Segundo SS-398, 1968-70) Me and the Capt. knew how far we were going to go in that Mans Navy. Wish I could have been at the Control Table plotting the course. But at the time I thought it was cool to be in the Torpedo Room, loading and firing...................:salute::salute::salute:

[Morpheus]

No :D

Besides all reality factors, this simulation is just not complex enough...

[Mikeb213]

We may not be able to compare to real 'sub captains' but I would be willing to bet on the fact that we are well versed on the theories that are behind being a real sub driver. Want something interesting to chew on? What if they had computers and a game like this back then. I bet they could have used SH4 as a way to do some basic training. Regardless of the real life threats, the tactics, and the theories remain the same.

[pythos]

Honestly I think you all misread what he was asking. He clearly asked if TACTICALLY we could be real sub skippers. Nothing about dealing with the living conditions, or crew anomalies (and what was that about crew always getting stuff done? I don't know about you but my crew drags along when there are MINOR leaks in the hull, resulting in lost sub.)

I am a pilot, and I am an avid flight sim pilot as well. Let me tell you, the "tactics" you learn with flight sim, can and do translate seamlessly into the real world. Now they are getting actual system simulation into some of the planes. Now a home simulator cannot simulate the psycological effects of being in the clouds with your life in the little hands of those instruments. The first time I actually did it I asked myself "what the hell am I doing?" Even now when I go into the clouds I get a very small tinge of fear. At the same time, I love it. Flying in and out of clouds is like no other experience.

I'll bet that most here could indeed set up a torpedo shot, just like an average skipper. We know how to overhaul a target, get into position by giving the necessary orders, and unleash simulated fish or eels at unsuspecting targets.

Now when it comes to evasion of escorts, that is a totally different story. First off we lack many of the tools real comanders had, such as making your boat appear dead, by bottoming out in shallow waters. We also lack the fact sonar gets "confused" by the closeness of the boat to the bottom. We do not have crack or even good sonar men that tell us when charges are on their way, or when a destroyer is on attack run, or when there is a circle runner trying to return home. The asdic in the game does not sweep like actual asdic. We cannot use the detonation of the charges to mask our own frantic flank bursts to evade the next run.

We also do not have to deal with a mechanical beast that is never perfect, always leaking at some joint, and is getting fatiqued from the dives of its life. Unless damaged our engines always turn flawlessly, not so with the real thing. Radar failure was also quite common, as were TDC failures.

Yes the life of a submariner is a far cry from us sitting in our comfy chairs in our warm house...on our own usually. But tactically I am sure there are some here that could do what the real skippers did.

Navigation for long trips, and astrogation is another matter entirely.

[Torplexed]

If any of us could be transported back to WW2 we'd probably more valuable as a font of naval intelligence than as a submarine captain. If we have one edge on a WW2 captain it's that the average SH4 player probably knows more about the relative strengths and weakness of the IJN than anyone in uniform back then. For instance, since they were built in secrecy the US didn't even know of the existence of the Yamato class battleships until the Marines captured some photographs in the Solomons fighting. Even then it was a year before the full details were known.

Plus, we could clue them in about the defective Mk 14....and tell them them to build more submarines. :03:

[kylesplanet]

I know I could hit the target, I'd just switch to auto target and turn the duds off. :har:

[Morpheus]

I know I could hit the target, I'd just switch to auto target and turn the duds off. :har:

lol, that was a good one :rotfl:

[pythos]

You see, the auto target of SH4 is not too unlike having AN HONEST TO GOD PLOTTING PARTY, as far as the duds are concerned. That was just a stupid statement. Why would you even do that in game, let alone on an actual boat?

[Stealhead]

That is true auto targeting is pretty much what the other officers in the conning tower did during an attack in fact in most books I have read the skipper pretty much let the TDC and plot men do most of the attack depends on the skipper Mush let O'Kane do many of the attacks.He of course was the one who decided how to attack.In fact even if the skipper was invloved he did not do everything some of the things you set in a fleet boat in SH4 where done by the TDC officer and there was a man that stood opposite the person using the scope some of the tools you use on screen where on back of the attack scope and had to be operated by antoer person.

[pythos]

Well the other person was usually the XO, and what he read was the bearing and or range, as the skipper moved the scope and moved the stadometer for the target for range info. As most of you know the skipper did not have a bearing or range indicator on his display like we do ours. It was the XO that read this info at the skipper's "mark". You recall, the skipper calls out "Bearing........mark" XO, "three three one." at that someone at the plotting table would draw a line out on the map from the sub's posistion, out, also the TDC officer would input this into the TDC. The skipper "range.....mark" WO, "one, one, thousand", this info would result in the plotting party putting a mark 11000, yards out on the drawn line, and the TDC officer putting said info into the tdc. This would be finnished off by the skipper guestimating the AOB or angle. On the back of the scope is the range indicator, very much like the one we have in game, and at the top of the scope a pointer and bearing indicator. Without the XO or other person the skipper could not carry out the attack.

Auto TDC does this for us, wheras manual is very very clumsy when it come to sending info to the TDC.

German subs however, quite a bit different. The bearing info was available to the commander, but he had to look away from his scope to look up and see the bearing pointer, call that number out, and return to his view. German scopes after the type VIIA were powered units (the attack ones), The range was also viewable by the commander as a mechanical/digital display adjacent to him. The Bearing info went directly into their version of TDC, so all that they needed to get from the commander was range, AOB, and speed, the last two being a guestimate until the last few moments before the shot.

All of this is done by auto TDC in the game. If it wasn't for the precision, it would be pretty darned realistic.

[Buddahaid]

Plus, we could clue them in about the defective Mk 14....and tell them them to build more submarines. :03:

And BuOrd wouldn't listen to you either while the MP's dragged you off to the nuthouse. :o

Buddahaid

[Kloef]

The Bearing info went directly into their version of TDC, so all that they needed to get from the commander was range, AOB, and speed, the last two being a guestimate until the last few moments before the shot.Also bear in mind that German subs had to fire at a predetermined point in time,U.S submarines with the TDC Mark I or III could fire at the captain's discretion because the TDC calculated in real-time..they were even capable of correcting info themselves because the TDC simply wouldnt give a fire solution if something didnt add up.Combined with constant updating of target info by the Captain and crew it just didnt get any better and precise at the time..resulting in tremendous flexibility in combat,an edge nobody had but the Silent Service!

[Brenjen]

Absolutely no comparison whatsoever.

[Scurvy]

Honestly I think you all misread what he was asking. He clearly asked if TACTICALLY we could be real sub skippers. Nothing about dealing with the living conditions, or crew anomalies (and what was that about crew always getting stuff done? I don't know about you but my crew drags along when there are MINOR leaks in the hull, resulting in lost sub.)

I am a pilot, and I am an avid flight sim pilot as well. Let me tell you, the "tactics" you learn with flight sim, can and do translate seamlessly into the real world. Now they are getting actual system simulation into some of the planes. Now a home simulator cannot simulate the psycological effects of being in the clouds with your life in the little hands of those instruments. The first time I actually did it I asked myself "what the hell am I doing?" Even now when I go into the clouds I get a very small tinge of fear. At the same time, I love it. Flying in and out of clouds is like no other experience.

I'll bet that most here could indeed set up a torpedo shot, just like an average skipper. We know how to overhaul a target, get into position by giving the necessary orders, and unleash simulated fish or eels at unsuspecting targets.

Now when it comes to evasion of escorts, that is a totally different story. First off we lack many of the tools real comanders had, such as making your boat appear dead, by bottoming out in shallow waters. We also lack the fact sonar gets "confused" by the closeness of the boat to the bottom. We do not have crack or even good sonar men that tell us when charges are on their way, or when a destroyer is on attack run, or when there is a circle runner trying to return home. The asdic in the game does not sweep like actual asdic. We cannot use the detonation of the charges to mask our own frantic flank bursts to evade the next run.

We also do not have to deal with a mechanical beast that is never perfect, always leaking at some joint, and is getting fatiqued from the dives of its life. Unless damaged our engines always turn flawlessly, not so with the real thing. Radar failure was also quite common, as were TDC failures.

Yes the life of a submariner is a far cry from us sitting in our comfy chairs in our warm house...on our own usually. But tactically I am sure there are some here that could do what the real skippers did.

Navigation for long trips, and astrogation is another matter entirely.


That's one of the most interesting posts I've read, on an internet forum.

Kudos to you, sir.

Also, my dad is (was) a pilot. He owned a Piper Cherokee and I got to fly it when I was younger...didn't get to take off or land, though.

But I agree that simulators are getting closer and closer to real-life.