Good Morning-Time for my Daily Questions

[Akmatov]

:DL

As I paddle around in the kiddie wading pool section of SH3, a few questions come to mind:

1) Torpedos have an arming distance, minimum range for the detonator to set, and the SH3 Manual mentions it - once. It mentions that there is an arming distance, BUT then never tells you what it is!!! Also, not mentioned in the GWX3 Manual. Would be nice to know.

2) The SH3 Manual drifts around between how the game works and what the history was. They talk about the problems with the early German torpedo detonators, BUT don't tell you if they are reflected in SH3. I have been purposely using impact, thinking that the magnetics would have the same problems they did historically. Imagine my surprise when I accidentally fired off a magnetic and it worked just like it was supposed to.
Does SH3+GWX3 cripple the magnetics in the early war?

3) As a lowly Swabbie, I'm using a low lever of realism to help me get into SH3 and sometimes to figure out just what the heck is happening. However, the automatic targeting system seems to work very poorly.

a. If I fire when the little green triangle in the Periscope or UZO is lit, I constantly miss to the rear of my target. On a four torp spread with one degree angle of seperation, fired for center of mass - I guess, as the target was locked, it locked on center of mass - two torps hit the rear of the ship, one just barely tagging the rudder (I think-certainly the most extreme rear of the ship-I was watching with the event camera). This is especially bad at short range <500m, at long range @ 1000m the system seems pretty good.

b. If I unlock the target and fire manually, I have to estimate the aiming point and take into consideration the movement of the ship - something I though the TDC was supposed to handle, but as I stated above the low-realism automatic TDC consistantly misses.

Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong would be appreciated.

[Captain Birdseye]

1) It's 400m

[BulSoldier]

magnetics are unreliable ingame also, i use them very very rarely.However the depthkeeping problems of the torps arent implemented ingame (i think).

About autotargeting, i suggest you switch it off, it is much more jayable when you hit , when you have done all the work yourself.But before shooting always open the external torpedo doors (Q ).This may be the reason your torps are falling behind your target.

The TDC does track your target movement.However in order to maximize (spl?) your chances of hit and (more importantly) detonation you should fire when the gyroangle is close to 0 (this angle determines how much the torp have to turn to intercept the target) when using impact and make sure the torp is going to hit a flot surface, because it can bounce of if hit something curved.

[mookiemookie]

If I fire when the little green triangle in the Periscope or UZO is lit, I constantly miss to the rear of my target.

Are you opening your torpedo tube doors before firing? (Default key: Q)

[Pisces]

...
b. If I unlock the target and fire manually, I have to estimate the aiming point and take into consideration the movement of the ship - something I though the TDC was supposed to handle, but as I stated above the low-realism automatic TDC consistantly misses.
(whoops, assumed you wanted to try manual targeting, never mind. I should read better)
No, if all the settings are entered correctly (with only range needing to be measured before shooting, as it isn't updated automatically) the torpedo goes where ever you point it to. You do not need to adjust the bearing or delay fire-time at all. Fire when the desired spot crosses the centerline of the scope/uzo. Just make sure the tubes are open wel before then.

[badwolf]

Hi Akmatov,
Glad your enjoying the game.

a. If I fire when the little green triangle in the Periscope or UZO is lit, I constantly miss to the rear of my target. On a four torp spread with one degree angle of seperation, fired for center of mass - I guess, as the target was locked, it locked on center of mass - two torps hit the rear of the ship, one just barely tagging the rudder (I think-certainly the most extreme rear of the ship-I was watching with the event camera). This is especially bad at short range <500m, at long range @ 1000m the system seems pretty good.Thats quite an interesting topic you have raised.

I remember in my early days in the torpedo school that when I fired at the motionless ship, it would pick up speed and move out the way, I thought at first it had spotted the scope, but later trials discounted this. When on patrol I saw ships gaining speed to avoid the torpedo, escorts were worse to hit due to their greater speed. I can't say for definite that its modelled in the game, but it does appear to be.

I have always in daylight and especially with steam driven torpedoes added a small percentage to the lead angle, better to hit the front of the ship than miss altogether especially with a single shot. Slowing down a ship can have some advantages when facing a convoy.

I'm not saying this is your problem, or whether the tactic is correct, but I do get a higher tonnage using it.
p.s. I have never seen a ship slow down to avoid the torpedo.

I'm sure someone with a greater knowledge in this area will confirm whether it is indeed modelled into the game.
May help with another problem making the observation scope more detectable than the attack scope, which I have been told isn't modelled in the game.

[Akmatov]

Are you opening your torpedo tube doors before firing?
Just make sure the tubes are open wel before then.
But before shooting always open the external torpedo doors (Q ).This may be the reason your torps are falling behind your target.

:hmmm: Hmm, ya think maybe I should open the doors before I fire the torp?

LOL

That was the problem! Thanks a lot guys!

Based on splashing around in the Baltic Training Area, I think the critical factor is time between Solution and Fire - hence I had consistently been having the torp follow a course that was several seconds off - I had been thinking distance, of the miss, and the problem was really time, between solution and firing.

Go to the TDC, select torp tube/s, select settings, UZO, open the doors, have the WE solve the firing problem and then INSTANTLY press the pretty red button - works great!

Looking forward to tackling the manual process, but currently working on just getting out of the Baltic - which is actually a fun place to experiment with ideas.

[mookiemookie]

Hi Akmatov,
Glad your enjoying the game.

Thats quite an interesting topic you have raised.

I remember in my early days in the torpedo school that when I fired at the motionless ship, it would pick up speed and move out the way, I thought at first it had spotted the scope, but later trials discounted this. When on patrol I saw ships gaining speed to avoid the torpedo, escorts were worse to hit due to their greater speed. I can't say for definite that its modelled in the game, but it does appear to be.

I have always in daylight and especially with steam driven torpedoes added a small percentage to the lead angle, better to hit the front of the ship than miss altogether especially with a single shot. Slowing down a ship can have some advantages when facing a convoy.

I'm not saying this is your problem, or whether the tactic is correct, but I do get a higher tonnage using it.
p.s. I have never seen a ship slow down to avoid the torpedo.

I'm sure someone with a greater knowledge in this area will confirm whether it is indeed modelled into the game.
May help with another problem making the observation scope more detectable than the attack scope, which I have been told isn't modelled in the game.

Ships will maneuver to avoid steam powered torpedoes, assuming they see the wake.

IRL, steam powered torpedoes were easier to detect not only because of the trail of bubbles but also hydrophone equipped vessels could hear the noise of the steam engine easier than the electric-powered torpedo.

[Graf Paper]

The recommended minimum firing distance for torpedoes in GWX is 300 meters. It takes at least 260 meters of travel before the torpedo arms and settles to the correct running depth.

Early-war depth keeping and unstable magnetic pistols are modeled in GWX. You can get lucky and still score a good hit with magnetics but don't rely on their performance until mid-1941. You'll still get occasional premature detonations even in good conditions. Poor conditions, such as rough seas and stormy weather or uneven sea bottoms in shallower waters, will have your magnetic torps exploding long before they reach the target.

A good rule of thumb is to only use magnetic pistols when your firing solution is at too sharp of an angle to reliably detonate impact pistols. This is usually anything greater than +/-20 degrees from a gyroangle of zero or 90 degrees angle on the bow (AOB).

[Bent Periscope]

1. By 300 meters, it is armed.

2. If you have it on magnetic, the impact is still in place and should go off, depending on angle, when striking the ship. I am not sure how deep you torpedo ran during this question nor the type of ship that you hit and it's depth.

3. I've noticed that when the triangle is green, the torpedo normally hits almost at where I was aiming (not where the green triangle is located). The closer you are the better. Also, this is assuming that you opened the Torpedo tube and that the ship did not speed up.

[Jimbuna]

Graf Paper is correct....the Falkes are the exception, they need 400 metres of travel.

[Akmatov]

I really thought the time between solution and fire was the critical factor, fixed by opening the tube doors first. While this is clearly a big factor and it seems to work well with slow moving merchant ships, it does not work with fast moving warship, even when the warship does not change course or speed - torps consistently miss to the rear. While I intend to move to manual targeting, the automatic system should be usable.

I am not sure how deep you torpedo ran during this question nor the type of ship that you hit and it's depth.
You are so right about the importance of the depth under the keel. Watching the Event Camera is hugely helpful for a newbie to figure out what is happening. It seems very easy to set the depth too deep and have the magnetic pistol fail to detonate - my current tactic with magnetics is to set the depth just barely under the keel. Hoping for either a magnetic or an impact hit; though sometimes I'm pretty sure the magnetic pistol failed.

Had something odd happen last night that makes me think that the magnetic might detonate from the side. Fired a snap shot from the aft tube with a torp already set shallow and magnetic. Aimed the shot for an impact hit, but the target altered course to directly head on and the torp's wake was clearly missing to one side. Being sure it was a miss I did a crash dive, but heard the sound of a hit. Came up to perescope depth to see the ship sinking. I'm wondering if the side shot triggered the magnetic pistol. Wierd.

A good rule of thumb is to only use magnetic pistols when your firing solution is at too sharp of an angle to reliably detonate impact pistols. This is usually anything greater than +/-20 degrees from a gyroangle of zero or 90 degrees angle on the bow (AOB).
I wasted a shot at a really high angle and watched as the torp hit the side of the ship and the warhead broke off and the two pieces fell away.

I have always in daylight and especially with steam driven torpedoes added a small percentage to the lead angle, better to hit the front of the ship than miss altogether especially with a single shot

This is very interesting. I have been locking (L) my targets, thinking this was needed for the WE to produce a solution. I'm thinking that if you unlock the target, you are firing purely by your estimation - an currently that is the only way I can hit a high speed warship. What I'd like is an auto solution that allowed you to modify the solution a bit, or more, toward the bow. Firing a 4 torp spread with a 1 degree seperation I get three to the rear and one just tagging the stern. So, I think that solution + several degrees bow-ward would be good. But afaik the solution is not modifiable, would be great if I was wrong.

[badwolf]

Hi Akmatov,
The easiest way to add a small amount of lead for manual or auto solution is to first obtain the solution for your shot and then unlock the scope and re-point the periscope i.e. bow of ship, if TDC update is on then it will then adjust to the new firing point. I've even aimed slighty in front of escorts because of their speed, but you have to be confident that it will spot the torpedo wake and increase speed.

[Sockeye]

Here's a handful of links that should come in handy as you're progressing through the world of unrestricted submarine warfare, mate.

-) Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual (USN, 1952):
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm

--) The Submarine Commander's Handbook (Kriegsmarine, 1942/43):
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/uboat/index.htm
(http://www.hnsa.org/doc/uboat/index.htm)
-) USN War Patrol Reports:
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/subreports.htm

-) Recordings made aboard USS Sealion in 1944:
http://hnsa.org/sound/#sealion

-) The main link for documents at the Historic Naval Ships Association:
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/

--) History of U-Boat Policy, 1939-1945 (Admiralty, 1946):
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-boatPolicy.htm

--) Admiralty records at U-Boat Archive, including interrogation reports
http://www.uboatarchive.net/BritishReports.htm

--) Kriegsmarine War Diaries/KTBs:
http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTBList.htm
http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB.htm

--) U-Boat Archive
http://www.uboatarchive.net/

SH3/4's particular quirks aren't considered of course, but some good reads there, and a lot of the information will become invaluable :DL