Why do we get sunk?

[meduza]

I recently lost a career in February 1943, on my 22th patrol. I was very fond of that career, had a fine boat and damn good crew, very experienced. Secretly, I was hoping that I'll survive the war... It made me think what went wrong.

So why do we get sunk? Is it because the allied advanced technology is simply overwhelming? Is it because of the chain of seemingly unrelated events that combine into a disaster? or is it a human factor (Bernard on board :DL)?

I made an analysis of my last patrol, you be the judges of it...



Day 5. U-371 on patrol in Mediterranean, near Malta. No wind, visibility unlimited. Located a large convoy. Made an attack at dawn. Sank Aquitania and missed Liberty cargo (I entered starboard instead of port AOB :oops: - luckily I noticed my mistake before launching torps at Aquitania). Distance to nearest ship 2km.

The escorts were nasty. They pinged and deptcharged me for hours, but I managed to lost them by going very deep, 270m. No damage. Surfaced and went after them.

Spotted an aircraft, single Kingfisher. I just upgraded my flak guns and didn't want to waste any time for diving, thinking I can handle it. Big mistake. I was so confident, I didn't even made a hard turn when it came very close. I downed the Kingfisher, but after he droped two bombs at my stern, killing all of my flak crew.

This was a crutial moment. Due to the hull damage, I considered dropping the chase. But I was tonnage hungry so I continued. I planed to attack from the distance, to give myself more time to escape.

I attacked in the afternoon. 3500m from nearest ship, 4500m from targets. The flanking escort was far away from the convoy, 3-4km to my starboard.
After releasing eels I went deep and turned starboard, to oposite of convoy's course as I usualy do. When I heard 4 explosions I realized that I brought the boat right into the path of flanking destroyer.

I went as deep as I could with damaged hull, to 170m. The destroyers followed me for one hour, ocasionaly droping DCs but missed every time. For some time there were no depthcharges and I thought they lost me. Then a single hit. I only had time to check the F7 screen. Everything was red. Game over.

[BulSoldier]

Well i believe the turning point was the surface defence against the aircraft, though you survived it , your decision was quite risky , damaged boat, attacking convoy. So i guess it comes to this, you were unable to dive to safe depth - the reason, aircrafts , and as we all know they were the nemesis of the uboots.
I think however the only reason you or anyone else have lost careers is the human factor.We all chose (almost always) when to attack or flee, and our confidence or greed for tonnage is the one who destroyes our carrers,however on the other hand we play (our duty esentialy is) to attack allied shiping.
The ASW technology only makes our mystakes much more expensive if not fatal ;)

I myself screwed attack today.After one torpedo at large merchant i didnt really check if it was armed (early '41) and surfaced at close range to gun it down to oblivion, but WRONG it had guns and killed my artilery expert along with to sailors and damaged my boat... Again my overconfidence...Tough i decided not to chase the convoy (the merchant was falling behind probably damaged by my preveous attacks) witch i belive was the most reasonble.

[Platapus]

In a past war career I made the mistake of wasting renown on the increased FLAK guns. It is not worth it in 1943-45

So mistake 1: Not diving when aircraft are seen.

Other than that mistake, everything else is a judgement call, just like in real life.

Personally, if I have a damaged hull, I won't attack an escorted target. I will continue to patrol trying to find a lone target (difficult in 43) and then head home for repairs. The only protection I have is the ability to dive. Anything that prevents that, means mission is essentially over. Especially in 43+.

170 meters is way deep when you have a damaged hull. :nope: That is a lot of stress on your hull.

You did not mention if your long shots resulted in any sinkings. I have never shot from 3000 meters before. I would be interested if it worked.

So in my humble opinion, you only made one mistake in not diving in 1943. The rest was a risk that in this case did not pay off but might have paid off next time.

However, despite the propaganda in the Uboat Commander's Handbook, there are bold Kaluens, and old Kaluens, but few old bold Kaluens.

To me it is better to survive for the next patrol.

[Platapus]

I entered starboard instead of port AOB :oops:

Wish I had a Reichsmark for every time I made that error. I would be rich!

[Sockeye]

I was so confident

I believe it was Spitfire pilot Raymond Munro who defined confidence as "that warm fuzzy feeling you get just before you slip on the banana peel!" in his autobiography The Sky's No Limit. :DL

That's what I think usually sinks me: getting into something that hasn't been fully thought out, throwing caution to the wind, underestimating an opponent, however you choose. The underestimating is probably the biggest factor for me; as long as I treat every destroyer as a possible fanatic Sockeye-killing zealot, things seem to turn out okay or are at least manageable. Right now, my mind is focusing on "aggressive caution" as how I'd describe... my personality in general, maybe (one of them, anyways).

Along those lines, I think that the best advice comes from Dick O'Kane's Clear the Bridge!:

"Be on either the offensive or the defensive, never in-between."

[meduza]

Your thoughts seem to reflect mine - it's the human factor. Overconfidence in ourselves and underestimating the enemy is what usualy spells our doom.

Now I'm back in the Med, a month after the last career's end, in outdated boat with green crew. I'll try to do things differently this time. But I've said this before. :DL





You did not mention if your long shots resulted in any sinkings. I have never shot from 3000 meters before. I would be interested if it worked.
All torpedoes hit, sinking a large merchant and intermediate tanker. I followed the convoy the whole day, so I had very accurate data on its course and speed.

[rik007]

Important factor is how relaxed you are when you start playing SH3. I recently was finished during a mission end '42. I had a great crew, fully awarded and qualified. I noticed in the days before the end that I was a little hurried and had been detected one time before engaging but without consequences. Finally I was detected due to a slight error. Depth charges came done accurately. I was fed up as I have a rule that death = death. Carelessness is you enemy. I should have been able to survive deep into 1943. 1944 is possible if you are willing to accept that your max score in a mission is 5.000 or less. Because you can only attack in rough wheather.

[Captain Birdseye]

I think that this can only be judged by experience, you as a SH3 player get to know your skills and weaknesses, for me personally, it is convoys.

I like to get in nice and close, which will not work submerged, so by the time i'm say 7km from my targets, i'm around 2km from an escort. This has seen a few hairy moments and something I have to consider now.

The time that the game really tests you is when you have flooding and damage, and you are being DC'ed. For me, that is what makes the game.

[sharkbit]

Spotted an aircraft, single Kingfisher. I just upgraded my flak guns and didn't want to waste any time for diving, thinking I can handle it. Big mistake. I was so confident, I didn't even made a hard turn when it came very close. I downed the Kingfisher, but after he droped two bombs at my stern, killing all of my flak crew.

This was a crutial moment. Due to the hull damage, I considered dropping the chase. But I was tonnage hungry so I continued. I planed to attack from the distance, to give myself more time to escape.



2 statements jumped out at me in your narrative, highlighted in red and in bold.
2 reasons we all get sunk sometimes I bet:
1. Overconfidence.
2. Greed.

One of the worst depth chargings I received was from overconfidence due to underestimating my enemy. I was lucky on that one and survived only to die later on.

:)

[nikbear]

I have lost count of the number of times over confidence and sheer tonnage greed has got me into hot water:oops::nope: I think it is one of the single biggest career killers going:yep:
Like others have mentioned,I have been known to cut a patrol short if I think that I've sustained to much damage,The risks are just far to great:hmmm:
I'd rather go home with 20,000grt and get there,than take a risk and go after the enemy with a hull thats damaged and puts me on the defensive before I've even fired an eel:nope:
By mid 42' onwards you are on a losing ticket as it is,taking any unwaranted risks is a sure fire way to the bottom:03: Im sure we've all been there a few times:rotfl:
One of the greatest skills a commander can have and so little touched upon,is the ability to know when to judge that 'discretion is the better part of valour'.......You know when you've pushed lady luck to far,and its time to call it a day:yeah:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessary)

[Brer Rabbit]

I have been reading the interrogation reports from captured u-boat crews, and it is no suprise that the events and results are similar to RL.

[Akmatov]

As one struggling to get into SH, this thread is very interesting. While still trying to get through the Academy, I have read a bit about the submarine campaigns and thought about it a bit, especially lately.

It is very good to see you guys agreeing, based on experience, with the plan I'm hoping to stick to once I get going - Great Caution and a willingness to pass up that one more juicy shot that is a bit risky. A sub is inherently a tin can just waiting to sink. I'm hoping I will be able to follow a program of the greatest stealth and abject cowardice and see how far I can get. :) I plan to spend nothing on Flak as historically it was a failure. I'm hoping to hone my crews diving and running skills as best I can. And I hope to never waste a single shell on irritating a surface ship with far more guns than I.

As has been said here and elsewhere, you can be brave or old, not both.

This looks like so much fun, as soon as I can figure out the secret mission end sequence without the secret code ring - my copy seems to have omitted that.:hmmm:

[Doolar]

We the Captain , Officers and the Crew of U-45 would like to send our deepest regrets to the friends and familys of the HEROIC crew of U-371 . Their bravery and dedication to the FATHERLAND was second to none . You will be missed . Captain ERWIN DUSCHEK
U-45 on patrol

[Wicked Popsicle]

Those limeys are sneaky you turn your head and they'll get the best of you. just ask the the 1000000 captains I played as. Oops I forgot R.I.P.:salute:

[Sgtmonkeynads]

I have been reading the interrogation reports from captured u-boat crews, and it is no suprise that the events and results are similar to RL.

Where can I find these? Those would make a great read!!!!!!!

[nikbear]

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-172INT.htm

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-177INT.htm

Fascinating reading:yeah:

[meduza]

Thanks, nikbear. Great stuff. :up:

[Shadowblade]

2 nikbear: Thank you, Herr Kaleun :up:

[Sailor Steve]

I agree with the others: the main reason we get sunk is greed. I try to imagine it's real. I even questioned at one time if I would play differently if I put the game away forever if I died in a career, or at least for a year. I know I couldn't ever really do that, but it makes me think about being cautious sometimes.

[Task Force]

Err.. how do we get sunk... simple we dont, we dive out of control till are sub Pops...:yep:

[PappyCain]

I too am trying to make it all the way through the war with my original crew - yes, we know that was not historical. But never the less I am doing it on advanced settings to see if I can. So far, with some luck I am in late '44. But next port call, I am saying farewell to Helga. I am not sure my skills and luck will hold out UNLESS I become ultra cautious. I'll keep you posted. I am using maximum knowledge and patience. May not be enough without luck.

:salute:

[Task Force]

yes, im trying the same thing also.:yep: keep my crew alive for 6 years.

[Rafael]

My crew and me died today VIIC (May 1941), because of Karl Dönitz who sent me to war to soon! :down:

[BulSoldier]

I have to say i think (atleast to me) my acts of stupidity are proveked by the sometimes long and fruitless patrols.In witch you try to atleast not come home with almost no fuel, damaged boat and no kills at all , witch chasing a contact with no regard for personal safety.

[Jimbuna]

It all boils down to greed (for tonnage) and recklessness.

The next time your in a position that calls for you to make a judgement/decision on whether you cary out an attack or move on, simply ask yourself "If this was in RL and my life as well as that of all my crew were at risk.....would I or wouldn't I?"

At least if you make the wrong decision you can always reload the game....a luxury not afforded to a Kaleun in RL. http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Heffalump]

I'll be the one to ask the dumb question... :06:

Why is port AOB better?

[BulSoldier]

It is all the same, but if you make 180 degrees mystake the TDC will think the ship is moving in the oposite direction.

[meduza]

I'll be the one to ask the dumb question... :06:

Why is port AOB better?
It's not that the port AOB is better, but in this case it was the correct setting, because the ships showed me their port side. Setting the starboard AOB (like I did by mistake) caused the torpedoes to pass far behind the ship.


The next time your in a position that calls for you to make a judgement/decision on whether you cary out an attack or move on, simply ask yourself "If this was in RL and my life as well as that of all my crew were at risk.....would I or wouldn't I?"
I guess in war people tend to do some crazy things. :D

Now I'm again in the similar situation, on second patrol of my new career. I was damaged by aircrafts 2 days after leaving the port (this time I crash dived immediately, but they were fast). The hull damage is probably serious, because there was a lot of flooding.
I already attack one small convoy, but didn't hit any ship and didn't have to face the escorts.
I'm considering returning to base, or continue my patrol hoping to find some unescortred merchants (not a lot of them in Med, though)...

[BulSoldier]

Dont you have your hull integrity in percent. I played without it for a while but i discovered that whenever i get damaged i have no idea what is the damage to the boat when everything is repaired and that doesnt seem very realistic. Once i had massive damage (or atleast i thought so) just to discover that after 4 days of repairs and when i got finaly home i had more than 96% hull integrity...

[meduza]

Dont you have your hull integrity in percent. I played without it for a while but i discovered that whenever i get damaged i have no idea what is the damage to the boat when everything is repaired and that doesnt seem very realistic. Once i had massive damage (or atleast i thought so) just to discover that after 4 days of repairs and when i got finaly home i had more than 96% hull integrity...
I know what you mean. I don't have the percentage display, but I'm thinking about enabling it. :hmmm: I know that in RL the Kaleuns didn't have their hull integrity displayed :D, but they must have had at least a vague idea about its condition.

Anyway, the greed prevailed once again...

The Southampton goes down, and Dido is following her. Maybe it won't cost me a career. :D
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1092/sh3img2862009233234625.jpg