Going back to GWX 2.1 (from 3.0)

[WilyPete]

Greetings everyone, this is my first post and I apologise in advance that it will be seen as controversial. But I have to get this off my chest. After having tried GWX 3.0 I have finally decided to go back to 2.1 after having thought about it, I finally found something which made me make up my mind. Fuel.

Why in the manual does it say that the IIa's fuel/range was increased by 30 per cent when I in fact I calculated it was increased over 300 per cent (3 fold). The range in stock SH3 gives it at 2415 km at 8 knots. I just asked my Nav officer the range and he answered 9624 km doing 8 knots and a 3rd of the way to the Patrol area in northern Norway. Now I understand the limitations of the game and read the manual and by the sound of it wasn't a bad idea. But then why did the range increase 3 times and not 30 per cent like what it says in the manual? This is way too much. Basically it has ruined it for me. The IIa has become a IId which can easily patrol all around the British Isles. If that is historic accuracy....

There are a few other things: The radio messages at the start of the war are eye-candy and for emmersions sake, and I apprecaite the effort. But why are the messages in broken, mispelt English? When as I understand it some of the GWX team are British??? This does the complete opposite of emmersion for me. And didn't someone test it...there are way too many messages and some are just bleh. Also, the message you get at the start of the war is on the 3rd of September at 2am. What??? Britain declared war on Germany on the afternoon of 3rd September. What's that about?

Finally, the August shake-down patrol doesn't work. You end up with 2 patrols in August...why 2? Why not just start it in mid-August?? It's very confusing and frustrating when you take your time to get to a patrol area so you can be there at the start of the war (how would I know when the war starts...I shouldn't) so if you play normally and get to the patrol area in good time, it's only the 29th August and you're heading back home when the war starts a couple days later...and if you do linger for the start at the patrol area then you end up with an unrealistic 20 day patrol...in a IIa? :nope:

Wasn't the whole point of GWX to be as historically accurate and immersive as possible?

I'm sorry if I sound ungrateful and as I said, I'm not criticising GWX as I'm going back to 2.1 which in my opinion was near enough perfect (apart from the radio messages but that can be lived with). I realise this is free etc etc. And I repeat the work put in is appreciated. But what I feel is that GWX took a step backwards and I also feel that because it is free criticism has been kept to a minimum and people have avoided criticism, hence why at the end we have these problems. Conctructive criticism is like market research...essential. I think I have criticised constructively...

It's a pity...maybe if these things came out GWX would've been perfect...as it is in my eyes it's flawed. Which is a pity considering all the work.

p.s. I know I'm not alone in this...Just read a thread where two members wrote they were using GWX 2.1 and the next member says "I thought you would've already gotten 3.0 by now"...read between the lines. Lots of other examples too. So as I repeat, the game breaker for me was making the IIa into a IId...increasing the range 3 times (300 per cent) not 30 per cent like what it says in the GWX manual.

I may not be popular but at least I'm honest.

[Madox58]

Welcome to SubSim.
:yeah:

Your intitled to your opinion.
And your intitled to play the Game your way.
If 3.0 doesn't work for you?
That's A O.K.
Not everyone likes it.
Enjoy which ever version suits you.
:up:

[WilyPete]

Ok, but can I have an answer at least why in fact the range was increased 3 fold (300 per cent) when the manual says 30 per cent? And anyway, sorry I thought GWX was made for people (like me) to enjoy. Otherwise why make it? If we are to enjoy it, then we must get our feedback across. Or are people that sensitive they can't take criticism? Even a constructive one?

[Hanomag]

Welcome aboard Herr Kaluen!! :arrgh!:

[mookiemookie]

Ok, but can I have an answer at least why in fact the range was increased 3 fold (300 per cent) when the manual says 30 per cent? And anyway, sorry I thought GWX was made for people (like me) to enjoy. Otherwise why make it? If we are to enjoy it, then we must get our feedback across. Or are people that sensitive they can't take criticism? Even a constructive one?

Did you ask for a few range estimates? They can very quite a bit depending on the sea state at the time.

[WilyPete]

Welcome aboard Herr Kaluen!! :arrgh!:

Thanks. :salute: Anyway, I would like my money back for GWX 3. :stare: Joking apart, I think criticism is good look at when GWX put an extra torpedo on the IIa (think it was version 1.something) and then it disappeared in GWX 2. If there will be a GWX 3.something at least I got my views across and maybe they'll be taken into consideration.

But in the meantime, can someone clear up the thing about the fuel. KptLehman? Anyone?

[WilyPete]

Did you ask for a few range estimates? They can very quite a bit depending on the sea state at the time.

Yes...it is definitely slightly over 3 times (300 per cent) the stock fuel.

[WilyPete]

OK re-reading the manual, I think I worked out where the problem lie. It states the stock range is 3333 km at 12 knots. This is wrong, it should've been 3333 km at 8 knots. So in fact yes the boat range has increased 33 per cent on the wrong figure of 3333 km at 12 knots which at 8 knots (which it should've been) makes for a massive increase in range...in fact 300 per cent more.

[Madox58]

It's very possible it was a typeing mistake.
Those figures are in several files.
With all the files GWX Modders went over?
A wrong entry could well have passed us by.
We are not perfect.
(As much as we wish we could be)
But your the first that I recall pointing this out.
And it's been 6 months!

I'll look into it.
:salute:

[GoldenRivet]

i believe this was done for one very specific purpose.

and that purpose is...

the SH3 world is a "Mercator projection" - meaning that the round earth is being projected on a flat surface.

this results in a great deal of distortion in the distances between objects.

for example.

on the round earth it is a voyage of some 3,300 miles (give or take) from Brest France to New York harbor...

in the "mercator world" of SH3, that distance is distorted to a whopping 5,300 miles...

not quite TWICE the actual distance.

a type VII sub would have no problem travelling at an economic cruise speed from Brest to New York and back acting conservatively.

but in SH3 you would run out of fuel about half way into your return voyage.

because the SH3 modders could not change the SH3 world from Flat.. to spherical, they had to adjust the in game range of the U-boat by increasing it nearly 3 fold.

this way... even though the reported range of the u-boat would be reported as a rediculously high number - it would in fact be more historically accurate as the u-boat could now reach the far away (and histroically accurate) hunting grounds of the mercator world.

it is for this reason that the next installment of the Silent Hunter Series should account for the following..

1. all distances measured in NAUTICAL MILES

2. all speed measured in "KNOTS"

3. instead of a flat earth, use the round earth similar to that found in the microsoft flight simulator series.

[WilyPete]

Thanks, very kind of you. If there's a way to fix it I would appreciate it, which would save me 4 hours+ of re-installing the game. Apologise again if I sounded unappreciative...I'm just frustrated at the thought of going through the re-installing. GWX is a very good...in fact I played SH4 recently and thought it looked like it was made a few years before SH3 with GWX. What's up with SH4 and the clanky feel??

[Madox58]

O.K.
Stock range for the IIA Surfaced.
This is from the sim file which controlles everything.
Range = 1050
Knots = 12

GWX 3.0 settings
Range = 2895
Knots = 12

That's not 300%
But pretty darned close.

Maybe the 12 Knots should have been reduced to 8 knots.

[WilyPete]

i believe this was done for one very specific purpose.

and that purpose is...

the SH3 world is a "Mercator projection" - meaning that the round earth is being projected on a flat surface.

this results in a great deal of distortion in the distances between objects.

for example.

on the round earth it is a voyage of some 3,300 miles (give or take) from Brest France to New York harbor...

in the "mercator world" of SH3, that distance is distorted to a whopping 5,300 miles...

not quite TWICE the actual distance.

a type VII sub would have no problem travelling at an economic cruise speed from Brest to New York and back acting conservatively.

but in SH3 you would run out of fuel about half way into your return voyage.

because the SH3 modders could not change the SH3 world from Flat.. to spherical, they had to adjust the in game range of the U-boat by increasing it nearly 3 fold.

this way... even though the reported range of the u-boat would be reported as a rediculously high number - it would in fact be more historically accurate as the u-boat could now reach the far away (and histroically accurate) hunting grounds of the mercator world.

Yes but the problem is in the manual it does not say the range was increased 3 fold. It says 20 per cent for the Atlantic boats and 33 per cent for the coastal. That is where the problem lies. Yes, the Earth is a sphere thus at the top and bottom it is a shorter distance to go side-ways than at the equator, but not 3 times less... Also, I was currently in U-3, reading up on the patrol where it sunk a couple of ships off Norway it says it was at the limit of it's range...Norway. With the U-3 in game as it is I can reach the Atlantic.

[Hanomag]

i believe this was done for one very specific purpose.

and that purpose is...

the SH3 world is a "Mercator projection" - meaning that the round earth is being projected on a flat surface.

this results in a great deal of distortion in the distances between objects.

for example.

on the round earth it is a voyage of some 3,300 miles (give or take) from Brest France to New York harbor...

in the "mercator world" of SH3, that distance is distorted to a whopping 5,300 miles...

not quite TWICE the actual distance.

a type VII sub would have no problem travelling at an economic cruise speed from Brest to New York and back acting conservatively.

but in SH3 you would run out of fuel about half way into your return voyage.

because the SH3 modders could not change the SH3 world from Flat.. to spherical, they had to adjust the in game range of the U-boat by increasing it nearly 3 fold.

this way... even though the reported range of the u-boat would be reported as a rediculously high number - it would in fact be more historically accurate as the u-boat could now reach the far away (and histroically accurate) hunting grounds of the mercator world.

it is for this reason that the next installment of the Silent Hunter Series should account for the following..

1. all distances measured in NAUTICAL MILES

2. all speed measured in "KNOTS"

3. instead of a flat earth, use the round earth similar to that found in the microsoft flight simulator series.

Damn GR.. I don't think Hawkings coulda spit out an answer like that. Well done!

Good thing they never put in the Flying Sub for me, you would'nt have been able to explain that one.

[Madox58]

DANG IT!
Type slower guys!
I'm a Pick and Poke!!
:har:

[GoldenRivet]

haha.

head for the north pole - there is a surprise there for you :yeah:

like smashing into A WALL at 1024x Time Compression :har:

literally - a frikcin wall!

[WilyPete]

I just changed my mind, I'll be keeping GWX 3.0. I just remembered I would be losing too much stuff I like (for example the darker, more realistic nights and the better pitching and yawing and loads of other things which I forgot about). Unless anyone can come up with a fix, I will just try and calculate how much fuel I should have and what the limits are...it's a pity, some of the joy of the IIa was fuel management. Oh well.

[Madox58]

It's a simple edit to the IIA sim file.
S3D will allow you to do it yourself.
Or give me a correct figure,
and I'll do it ASAP and upload it.

It's that simple.
:yeah:
Should the correct figure be 1396.5 at 12 Knots?

[WilyPete]

It's a simple edit to the IIA sim file.
S3D will allow you to do it yourself.
Or give me a correct figure,
and I'll do it ASAP and upload it.

It's that simple.
:yeah:
Should the correct figure be 1396.5 at 12 Knots?

Errm...yeah I got 1396.5 too. Thanks a lot if you can do this for me...I forgot how much 3.0 had improved from 2.1 when I said I was going back to 2.1. I know you'll think it's strange about this range error but the nice thing about the IIa is that you're limited to how many attack runs you can make...sometimes I have to break off an attack with a couple of torpedos left because fuel is low. I like that...adds a new dimension and every ton is hard fought.

Thanks again. :up:

[Madox58]

This is not JSGME ready!
Put it directly into the IIA Submarine folder.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mo5mmvy4eor

If you can't figure out where it goes?
I'll do a JSGME ready tomorrow.
Unless someone does it before me.

Now is that service?
:03:

[WilyPete]

Thanks Privateer. I apologise for the moan earlier. Not knowing much about how these things work I thought GWX was broken and a fix was complex and so had to wait for a new version. Thanks again!! :salute:

[Madox58]

No problem Mate.
:up:

GWX has always been an evolving Mod.
Those that worked on it did it all for free.
Sometimes things slip by.
There are thousands of files to check,
MANY hours of testing also.
But Somethings things slip through.

This is just one of them.
:nope:

Enjoy!
:yeah:

[cj95]

Let me start off by saying that I love GWX.

HOWEVER, I have to agree with the sentiment here, I'm a big time IIa fan and when I made the switch to 3.0 I was almost in tears of frustration with the new 'unlimited fuel' canoe.:wah:

I was blazing all the way from Kiel to Scapa Flow at Full Speed and still had tons of fuel left for the return trip, effectively ruining the 'fun' of fuel management.

That said I've tried to limit myself to reasonable distances.

I'm going to try this new SIM file and see if it works better...Thanks

[meduza]

Thinking of my few patrols with the canoe in GWX3, I remember how I was pleased with myself, that I mastered fuel consumption so well and managed to save plenty of fuel... :haha:

So what's the verdict? Which .sim file is more accurate and consistent with other ranges in GWX3? The old one or the Privateer's? :hmmm:

WilyPete, welcome aboard! :arrgh!:

[WilyPete]

My sentiments exactly. Unforunately the little mod did not work...I put it in the correct folder and everything and it replaced the old file (which I made a copy of and kept). Could it be that I am mid-patrol? I will try to see what happens at the start of the next patrol. Thanks for the effort Privateer. If I can't get it sorted, I'll just limit myself to how much fuel I have, no problem.

[Jimbuna]

My sentiments exactly. Unforunately the little mod did not work...I put it in the correct folder and everything and it replaced the old file (which I made a copy of and kept). Could it be that I am mid-patrol? I will try to see what happens at the start of the next patrol. Thanks for the effort Privateer. If I can't get it sorted, I'll just limit myself to how much fuel I have, no problem.

You are corect....only install when in port/after your current patrol.

Welcome aboard http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Hanomag]

Hey.. wait a tic... I just realized I have been begging for 2 years now for a flying sub and this guy gets a fuel fix in like 5 minutes.. :damn:

Ok... how about warp capabilities on my IX? :yep:

[Jimbuna]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4782/makeitso776665.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/makeitso776665.jpg/)

[Lt.Fillipidis]

1. all distances measured in NAUTICAL MILES

2. all speed measured in "KNOTS"

3. instead of a flat earth, use the round earth similar to that found in the microsoft flight simulator series.

4. a sea bed that is actual for friend or foe, with ups and downs, mud and sonar absorbing, for me plx...

haha.

head for the north pole - there is a surprise there for you :yeah:

like smashing into A WALL at 1024x Time Compression :har:

literally - a frikcin wall!

I did this in a fruitless attempt to see some floating ice...
And in 4096x time compression... Ouch...

[WilyPete]

You are corect....only install when in port/after your current patrol.

Welcome aboard http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

Excellent, this has made my day. I was very close to putting SH3 in it's box and putting the box away. I've been playing (suffering) GWX for 3 years with an old PC (unplayable in ports etc) so recently I built a fast system and to go with it I bought a nice 22 inch widescreen Samsung monitor. I was really excited to see how GWX should look in all its glory...only to find that the widescreen fix doesn't work with my ATI card. :damn: So that was already disappointing and then this... So thanks everyone for your help. :up:

[Sailor Steve]

I'll take this opportunity to address one of the unanswered questions.

Finally, the August shake-down patrol doesn't work. You end up with 2 patrols in August...why 2? Why not just start it in mid-August?? It's very confusing and frustrating when you take your time to get to a patrol area so you can be there at the start of the war (how would I know when the war starts...I shouldn't) so if you play normally and get to the patrol area in good time, it's only the 29th August and you're heading back home when the war starts a couple days later...and if you do linger for the start at the patrol area then you end up with an unrealistic 20 day patrol...in a IIa? :nope:
The game will only allow a start date of the first of a given month. Otherwise it could have been made to start August 19, the historic date that 14 u-boats were sent to the Atlantic. You can just start the First of September, as no Type IIs were sent out earlier than that.

A better solution is to install SH3 Commander. It is an external tool that works perfectly with GWX. It allows you to adjust days in base, or even let it randomize them. That way you can do what I do: I leave the dock and then immediately end the patrol. I then either let it choose and have as many as three in August, or, depending on my mood, set it for 18 days and leave on the 19th.

There's always a solution.

Well, almost always. It still takes three weeks to load the game, and it still sometimes crashes for no apparent reason.

[Jimbuna]

Excellent, this has made my day. I was very close to putting SH3 in it's box and putting the box away. I've been playing (suffering) GWX for 3 years with an old PC (unplayable in ports etc) so recently I built a fast system and to go with it I bought a nice 22 inch widescreen Samsung monitor. I was really excited to see how GWX should look in all its glory...only to find that the widescreen fix doesn't work with my ATI card. :damn: So that was already disappointing and then this... So thanks everyone for your help. :up:

There's always help from within the community on this forum.

If you ever get sick of SH3....don't forget old uncle jimbuna before disposing of your disc http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/whistle.gif

[h.sie]

This discussion made me curious and I compared the ranges from the GWX manual with the values in the .sim files and I found some differences:

I calculated using 1sm = 1,852km

Type IIA: GWX-Manual: 4400km = 2375sm. In .sim file: 2895sm
Type IID: GWX-Manual: 8500km = 4589sm. In .sim file: 5288sm
Type VIIB:GWX-Manual: 15000km = 8100sm. In .sim file: 9733sm
Type VIIC:GWX-Manual: 15000km = 8100sm. In .sim file: 9713sm
Type IXB: GWX-Manual: 20100km = 10850sm. In .sim file: 14500sm
Type IXC: GWX-Manual: 25500km = 13768sm. In .sim file: 18650sm
Type IXD2:GWX-Manual: 55000km = 29697sm. In .sim file: 46621sm
Type XXI: GWX-Manual: 25800km = 13930sm. In .sim file: 13272sm

The largest difference is for the IXD2.

But I'm not sure, perhaps I made a mistake.

By the way: this is intended to be constructive.
h.sie

[Laufen zum Ziel]

WOW!

[h.sie]

I ask myself: Are the range-values in the .sim files wrong or am I wrong???

If the values in the .sim files are wrong and nobody else wants to fix it, I could make a patch with adjusted range values.

[WilyPete]

I ask myself: Are the range-values in the .sim files wrong or am I wrong???

If the values in the .sim files are wrong and nobody else wants to fix it, I could make a patch with adjusted range values.

That would be an excellent idea and it would be highly appreciated (by me, anyway). I for one would love it. Maybe it's the way I play, I like to micro-manage, keep an eye on fuel stocks and make management decisions based on it. Unlimited or unrealistic fuel really breaks it for me.

[h.sie]

But before I start doing it, I have to be sure that the values in the sim files really are too high. Perhaps there is something I did not consider in my thoughts. And I'm not sure, if "my" values (that are the values from the GWX-manual, divided through 1.85) are correct......who can help?

[JMV]

Is it possible to open a sim. file with S3D ? If not, does anyone know of a prog that does ? Thanks

[FIREWALL]

WOW!


This thread seems to be covered well. :up:

So I guess I'll just steal your Sig LZ. :haha:

[Sailor Steve]

I'm glad this thread was revived, as upon rereading I had a thought. The Type IIA was rare, and the much more common IIB was not included in the game. So I thought I'd ask - how close is the new range to the actual range of the IIB?

[Sea Sap]

This is not JSGME ready!
Put it directly into the IIA Submarine folder.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mo5mmvy4eor

If you can't figure out where it goes?
I'll do a JSGME ready tomorrow.
Unless someone does it before me.

Now is that service?
:03:

Anyone know where I can get hold of this fuel fix for the IIA? as the file is no longer available at this link

Like WilyPete I too enjoyed the limits the range put on me and it was also a major reason to buy the IID in my opinion.

[Laufen zum Ziel]

Never look a gift horse in the mouth.