Haqqani versus Amalek

[Skybird]

Some background information on Netanyahu and Amadhinejadh that people maybe do not know. Much of it certainly was new for me.

And it makes the situation more frightening.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-631799,00.html

[CaptainHaplo]

Skybird - thanks for posting that.

As a man who has met Benny, and have taken the time to study him in part, I know the writer is correct in many of his assertions. Assuming the same regarding Iranian politics, its quite an interesting piece to the puzzle.

I do think that the writer forgets that the office of the president is subservient to the Supreme Leader in Iran, but the facts are that the current unrest could easily be used by a skillful politician (and A is one of those) to undercut that authority and solidify more of it in the presidency.

Good read. The future looks interesting.

[Fish]

Ahmadinejad and Netanyahu should both read 'The Bible Unearthed'. :yep:

[CastleBravo]

From what I have seen from Spiegel in the past they probably have interjected their political bias and have it all wrong. They are further to the left than MSNBC.

[Skybird]

From what I have seen from Spiegel in the past they probably have interjected their political bias and have it all wrong. They are further to the left than MSNBC.
:nope:
One must only stand far enough on the right , then the rest of the world appears to be on the left. Mybe you think CaptainHaplo also is a left-biased man? I do not have that impression of him. Nor do I consider myself to be "left".

In my school days, in the 80s, I thought of Der Spiegel having a left bias, and today I cannot say if that was just my perpection, or if they really were more to the left back then. But I can say for sure that today they are anything but "left". Quite all political parties get their share of critical treatment by Der Spiegel. They are the geman newspaper with the best international internet presence, and the german original I would consider to be well-rooted in the political centre today. Almost all other German papers do not even see a need for an international appearance of theirs (that's why I rarely, if ever, link to English essays from other German newspapers or magazines).

But neither that nor your reply have anything to do with the article's content that I linked. If you think the author got something wrong, point at that detail and comment on it instead of trying to distract attention and generally criticising Der Spiegel because Mr. Follath expresses something you happen to dislike. Follath is no idiot, btw, but a promoted expert with degrees in his fields (politics, orient and china) that he happens to know quite well. Beat him on his arguments and descriptions - not by making vague accusations about the place where he got published: it is no lobby-organisation paying for his income.

[CastleBravo]

I respect your opinion. But aren't there other agencies which represent the German people, which are coming from a different political POV? Die Welt, for instance.? By American standards it is still a leftist publication, but we cannot all be Germans.

[Skybird]

Die Welt has some articles in English, but most of it's articles are simply bad works of journalism, and the internet presence is even worse. Only occasionally they impress with a good essay.

And no, I can't say that Die Welt is a prime newspaper. And if you would compare the daily output by them with that of Der Spiegel, you would see that Die Welt is much, more more to the left than Der Spiegel. But the main argument is the inferior journalistic quality, and especially their populistic style in selecting and presenting their articles. I would not say the printed version is much better.

The FAZ (Frankfurter Allgeimene Zeitung) has an acceptable print edition and often is referred to as the German equivalent to the British Times, and Die Zeit often has good essays with deeper analsis as well, but it less actual , also both are german exclusively.

Some regional newapapers worth to be mentioned, but all of them play no role oin the itnernational internet market.

And you still have not specified your criticism of Follath's article. If you have background info and knowledge on the cultural background info that would correct him, I would be interested to hear that. As I said, for me these mystical background things especially on the Jewish part were somewhat new, I do not know much about Judaism that goes beyond popular knowledge. Maybe CaptainHaplo would be the more competent discussion partner for you then, since he apparently has a live personal impression of Netanjahu from having met with him.

By American standards it is still a leftist publication, but we cannot all be Germans.

That implies there is no diversity in america, and no wider spectrum of political opinions that goes beyond "this" and "that". If it is not far right, it is not American, that is. I think that scenario can - and must - be questioned - even when a certain kind of Republicans love to imply that they are the better Americans and thus should have a monopole for the presidency.

[CastleBravo]

So what you are saying is the other media present in Germany is weak and they don't express your opinion in any case so they are not worth the trouble. OK I understand.

[CastleBravo]

I'm implying there is no diversity in Germany.

[Skybird]

So what you are saying is the other media present in Germany is weak and they don't express your opinion in any case so they are not worth the trouble. OK I understand.Ah, we enter the stage when you are so depsrate that you need to turn words in my mouth.

Are you sure you are in the position to judge the quality of various German newspapers - when you asked about other german newspapers representing Germans' opinion (or did not mean: your opinion?) and by that indicated that you do not know the German newspaper market?

I scan the national papers on the web almost every day, and also have read the print versions in the past, so I have some substantial impression about what to expect from whom. when I say the journalistic quality and the qulaity of writing and presentaiton vary, then maybe that is a poltical issue for you - not for me. I have linked essays not representing my personal opinions as well in the past years.

And can we now have your insightful criticism of Follath's original article, please? We are still waiting for you to become specific. So far you only tried to distract people from the fact that you just waved it off for being published in "a lefty place", but not saying what information or arguments you have to object the author's descriptions. I really would be interested to learn more if Follath's descriptions are wrong, but if your only argument against the essay is that it was published by the wrong magazine - then you have no valid argument at all and I can leave this little party immediately, since neither now nor in the future I would get a drink.

[CastleBravo]

Ah, we enter the stage when you are so depsrate that you need to turn words in my mouth.

Are you sure you are in the position to judge the quality of various German newspapers - when you asked about other german newspapers representing Germans' opinion (or did not mean: your opinion?) and by that indicated that you do not know the German newspaper market?

I scan the national papers on the web almost every day, and also have read the print versions in the past, so I have some substantial impression about what to expect from whom. when I say the journalistic quality and the qulaity of writing and presentaiton vary, then maybe that is a poltical issue for you - not for me. I have linked essays not representing my personal opinions as well in the past years.

And can we now have your insightful criticism of Follath's original article, please? We are still waiting for you to become specific. So far you only tried to distract people from the fact that you just waved it off for being published in "a lefty place", but not saying what information or arguments you have to object the author's descriptions. I really would be interested to learn more if Follath's descriptions are wrong, but if your only argument against the essay is that it was published by the wrong magazine - then you have no valid argument at all and I can leave this little party immediately, since neither now nor in the future I would get a drink.

Are you sure you are in a position to judge Americans by what you read in the German media? I would never judge either Germans, nor the German nation, based on what I see in the press. But I will judge it on what you post and say.

[Skybird]

I knew Americans in the past (Berlin), and know some today. I read American medias, too. And all that is not important.

You criticism of Mr. Follath's essay, please?

[CastleBravo]

I knew Americans in the past (Berlin), and know some today. I read American medias, too. And all that is not important.

You criticism of Mr. Follath's essay, please?

How about Mr. Follath has an agenda. Since we were'nt at the interview and Spiegel is a far left leaning agenda that is enough to dismiss it out of hand. Sorry but life sux sometimes and Mr. Follath is probay as accurate as most reporters, not at all.

[CastleBravo]

I guess you are not used to being challenged Mr. Skybird. That being the case is either one of two things. Either you speak for many or you report those who do speak against you. It is enlightening..

[Skybird]

How about Mr. Follath has an agenda.

Or how's about assuming the sky is green and the grass is blue.

Either you can counter Follath on what he says, or you can't. "If" and "eventually" and "we were not there" does not help you. You said they probably have it all wrong in that essay. Give your agument on the matter - where is it all wrong, why is it wrong, and what is the correct information there. You just try character assassination so far.

[Skybird]

I guess you are not used to being challenged Mr. Skybird. That being the case is either one of two things. Either you speak for many or you report those who do speak against you. It is enlightening..
What challenge? You do not set up a challenge. You play tricks. 7 postings by you now - and not one argument by you specifying where and why Follath said something wrong.

i think you have wasted enough of my and our time.

Bye.

[CastleBravo]

Or how's about assuming the sky is green and the grass is blue.

Either you can counter Follath on what he says, or you can't. "If" and "eventually" and "we were not there" does not help you. You said they probably have it all wrong in that essay. Give your agument on the matter - where is it all wrong, why is it wrong, and what is the correct information there. You just try character assassination so far.

It is hard to refute what is ultimately an opinion piece. It's Mr. Follath's opinion. If you agree with it that is your option, more power to you and us, in knowing your opinion.

[CaptainHaplo]

Me - a lefty. Now thats FUNNY! :har:

I have been told that if politics were an airplane, I would have 2 right wings!

Now here is the rub CastleBravo. The article didn't give much opinion at all. It gave a fairly concise rendition of what is easily verifiable regarding both men, both in their public and more "private" lives. Having had the priviledge of meeting Benny, and then taking time to learn about the man (because he made that much of an impression on me that I felt I should know more about him - and that says something), I can attest to the FACTS presented about him. Now I can't say that I have done much checking on Achmawhackjob, but I suspect that the veracity of other facts in the article give me reason to think that were I to do so, the history and background of A would be proven to be factual as well.

With that being said, the CONCLUSIONS that the writer draws are reasonable and logical given the known psychological profiles of the men involved. In some cases, the conclusions also are supported by the history of actions by both men.

I didn't see anywhere in there where he said conflict was inevitable. In fact, he ASKED the question - is it? If anything - the only opinion the writer brings forth - is an invitation to form your own. Thats actually good writing.

If your opinion thus points in a direction you don't like, that doesn't make the writer slanted. Sometimes in the political world we must accept that things are not what we would like.

I recognize he postulates a POSSIBLE future scenario where a conflict could be created because of these two leaders. Yet for it to be "political opinion", there would have to be some level of lifting one side over the other. Having read it as objectively as possible (and for the record, I would vote for "Bibi" if I was an Israeli citizen.), I saw nothing in there that slammed either side while raising the other. It pointed out historical fact, asked a couple of questions, and then lets you consider the implications. How is that "left" or "right"?

[Fish]

From the Jeruzalem Post:
http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/warpedmirror/entry/amalek_and_der_spiegel_posted


No doubt, when it comes to demonizing Israel, the race is on - though it's not entirely clear if the finish line is set at the bottom of journalism or the height of hypocrisy. In any case, here is a strong contender: under the title "Potential for Apocalypse," the German news magazine Der Spiegel asked on Monday: "Is War between Iran and Israel Inevitable (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,631799,00.html)?" The lead-in for the long essay of some 4400 words provides a sensationalist summary to whet the appetite of readers:
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad may seem very different, but they are united in their apocalyptic religious visions. Their respective beliefs may be propelling them on a collision course with potentially horrific consequences."
I rubbed my eyes in disbelief, and read it again, and again - but that's what it says: Bibi Netanyahu, the secular prime minister of a secular democracy, has "apocalyptic religious visions" that somehow "unite" him with the Holocaust-denying, fanatically religious Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who recently "won" re-election by "divine assessment," because the "supreme leader" of the Iranian mullahcracy said so.
The author of this piece of gibberish is apparently a veteran journalist, Erich Follath, who poses as an expert on this kind of comparison because he has met Netanyahu a few times - first back in 1976, shortly after Yonatan Netanyahu was killed at Entebbe - and he has also been to Iran and even interviewed Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Well, then, the man must know what he is talking about!!!

[Skybird]

That's what I would call almost a pamphlete by style.

Conservative Israelis certainly do not like being referred to as sharing a responsibility for things. Like republicans do not like being referred to as being responsible for the failures of Bush's policies, the Kreml not liking to be referred to as sharing responsibility for Georgia, and saakashvili not likng to be referred to be responsible for the war, and the EU... well, you get the pattern.

The religious certainly project a very massive influence on the forming of Israeli policies. So I wonder what that article by the Jeruslem Post should illustrate. they just show that they do not like being given a share of responsibility for things to come, and that they do not like to be reminded of that their mythologic background may drive their politics more than they are ready to admit to the world.

I have read many articles by Follath over the years, and their general quality was such that I have memorised his name and tend to read a piece just because he is the author of it. The Jeruslem Post must not like him.

But I'm sure the Iranians do not like what he had to say about them, too.

There might be an Iranian comment to the Spiegel essay somehwere that maybe sounds exactly like the Israeli article, just under Iranian prefixes.