Stop the Energy Tax Petition

[SUBMAN1]

http://www.americansolutions.com/take-action/petition/index3.php

Some neat stuff that this bill will be responsible for:


Raise inflation-adjusted gasoline prices by 74 percent
Raise electricity rates 90 percent after adjusting for inflation
Raise the cost of living of a typical household by $1,600 a year
Raise residential natural gas prices by 55 percent
Destroy 1-3 million jobs per year, every year until 2035
The middle of an economic recession is not a great place to raise the cost of living. Maybe they are looking for the needle to add to the haystack that will push us all over the edge.

-S

[UnderseaLcpl]

I think you mean the "straw to the camel's back" or something.:DL

[SUBMAN1]

Phrase it anyway you want! Yours is better. Brain is not functioning today (tired, allergies today, etc.), so I am relying on you to correct me! :D Brain was thinking in the right direction though.

-S

[UnderseaLcpl]

Well, it doesn't matter. I signed the petition. I'm against pretty much all taxes.

[Aramike]

http://www.americansolutions.com/take-action/petition/index3.php

Some neat stuff that this bill will be responsible for:


Raise inflation-adjusted gasoline prices by 74 percent
Raise electricity rates 90 percent after adjusting for inflation
Raise the cost of living of a typical household by $1,600 a year
Raise residential natural gas prices by 55 percent
Destroy 1-3 million jobs per year, every year until 2035
The middle of an economic recession is not a great place to raise the cost of living. Maybe they are looking for the needle to add to the haystack that will push us all over the edge.

-SI don't disagree that this tax is a bad idea. However, I am curious as to where you got these statistics from, as I highly doubt that this could honestly destroy 75 million jobs over 25 years, as that is just almost HALF of all current jobs.

Anyone proclaiming that is ridiculous, and risks credibility, thusly hurting their own cause.

[Stealth Hunter]

It pays to question his sources, Mike. SUBMAN has a nasty habit of using biased sources and/or misrepresenting the statements of legitimate ones.

[SteamWake]

Job Loss the worst in 34 years


http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/06/news/economy/jobs_january/index.htm

But Im sure this is all Bush's fault somehow.

[AVGWarhawk]

Whatever the case, people like Al Gore stand to make billions with this legislation. Raising any tax with todays economy is not a good thing...raising taxes at all is not a good thing. This cap and trade deal has smelled bad from day one and........watch Al Gore promote it like mad because he, again, stands to make billions.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm in. Taxation should only ever be considered a necessary evil. Using taxation to balance social issues is defeating its very purpose.

[SteamWake]

Using taxation to balance social issues is defeating its very purpose.

But thats liberalisim 101 :nope:

How dare you !

[Aramike]

It pays to question his sources, Mike. SUBMAN has a nasty habit of using biased sources and/or misrepresenting the statements of legitimate ones.Indeed, so I'm learning. :nope:

[SUBMAN1]

It pays to question his sources, Mike. SUBMAN has a nasty habit of using biased sources and/or misrepresenting the statements of legitimate ones.

Thats a pretty blanket statement and defamatory.

All my sources are always posted. You can find sources to sources from the link provided above if you bothered to look.

At least I provide links on this board when you never post any! You just give us your opinion which amounts to squat. Your entire posts in that regard are of a biased nature and misrepresenting of the facts.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Indeed, so I'm learning. :nope:

ANd you should learn from your first mistake - not to believe Stealth Hunter. He has some weird agenda.

-S

PS. You are not accounting for population growth, which the US should double by the year 2050.

[CastleBravo]

This sounds like a tax for living. Is that what it is? If so I wish my mother had done the right thing and aborted me.

That way we wouldn't have to worry about any of this non issues.

[Aramike]

ANd you should learn from your first mistake - not to believe Stealth Hunter. He has some weird agenda.

-S

PS. You are not accounting for population growth, which the US should double by the year 2050.Like I said, I'm wondering where you got the statistic from. Also, this has nothing to do with StealthHunter. You seem to have a tendency to give false statistics to support your claims. Although I don't neccessarily disagree with many of your views, I believe you hurt your causes (some of which are also mine) with distortions.

The bottom line is, if you're actually right, then you don't need to make things up to support your positions.

In any case, population growth doesn't neccessarily equate to job growth. If it did, it'd be impossible to lose 1-3 million jobs/year.

Again, this statistic is flawed. Please show where you got it from, and what it is based upon.

[SUBMAN1]

Like I said, I'm wondering where you got the statistic from. Also, this has nothing to do with StealthHunter. You seem to have a tendency to give false statistics to support your claims. Although I don't neccessarily disagree with many of your views, I believe you hurt your causes (some of which are also mine) with distortions.

The bottom line is, if you're actually right, then you don't need to make things up to support your positions.

In any case, population growth doesn't neccessarily equate to job growth. If it did, it'd be impossible to lose 1-3 million jobs/year.

Again, this statistic is flawed. Please show where you got it from, and what it is based upon.

I think it is probably a good thing to analyze. I just reported from the site above, though where they got it from is a good thing to Google. I'll see what I can dig up if anything.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Google brings up the following:

http://tonyphyrillas.blogspot.com/2009/06/stop-energy-tax-petition.html

http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/1154097

http://ben932.vox.com/library/post/carbon-tax-petition.html

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-obama-tax-increases.html

Maybe what they are estimating is the number of job losses due to decrease in economic power? ANy energy tax, that is exactly what would be a direct result. I'll dig more if I can find out. The way the statistics are derived may take some time. I'm wondering if it is a decreasing target over time, starting at 3 million and going backwards. I will see if it can be answered.

-S

[Aramike]

Google brings up the following:

http://tonyphyrillas.blogspot.com/2009/06/stop-energy-tax-petition.html

http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/1154097

http://ben932.vox.com/library/post/carbon-tax-petition.html

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-obama-tax-increases.html

Maybe what they are estimating is the number of job losses due to decrease in economic power? ANy energy tax, that is exactly what would be a direct result. I'll dig more if I can find out. The way the statistics are derived may take some time. I'm wondering if it is a decreasing target over time, starting at 3 million and going backwards. I will see if it can be answered.

-SWell, at least you didn't originate the statistic, even though it seems that there's no real source

It's just one of those things that doesn't pass the smell test, as far as I'm concerned. While I am certainly opposed to the tax, the job loss prognostication is silly, and makes me question the rest of the theories.

[Stealth Hunter]

Thats a pretty blanket statement and defamatory.

It's true. Remember your thread about NASA and the solar cycle in relation to global warming?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=152450

Mookie pointed out the problem with it not even half way down the page.

All my sources are always posted.

I never said they weren't, now did I?

You can find sources to sources from the link provided above if you bothered to look.

And so I did. A YouTube video on Obama's tax plan. But where was the part about the 75 million jobs that would be lost over a period of 25 years? It wasn't in there.

These people you're getting your information from did not bother to cite their sources, it's obvious they have some political and scientific bias, and you're asking us (and they are too) to believe their so-called "accurate" statistics without showing their reasoning behind them.

You and "American Solutions" fail at this scientific arguing, epically.

At least I provide links on this board when you never post any!

Uh... what? I post links to independent news articles, websites, and YouTube videos that all the time if it's an issue that concerns/interests me.

And you know what else, SUB? I actually bother to check their sources before I do it (not to mention make sure they bother to list them...).

You just give us your opinion which amounts to squat.

I give my opinion as well as the facts stated by the source.

Your entire posts in that regard are of a biased nature and misrepresenting of the facts.

*yawn*

We've covered this claim by you already, and you can investigate my old posts if you want to for proof.

All you do anymore is run around spamming threads about the evil Democrats and Obama, why global warming is a hoax created by the government (do you feel the same way about the moon landings? :har:), why religion is good and a lack of religion is bad, why America is better than any other country at anything and everything, etc.

At first, it was cute and funny: an angry man running around on Subsim ranting and raving. Now, it's just boring, putting it bluntly.

As Monty Python declared:

"OH- YOU'RE NO FUN ANYMORE!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RexQLrcqwc

ANd you should learn from your first mistake - not to believe Stealth Hunter.

"Because I said so!"

He has some weird agenda.

Oh really? And what is that?

Google brings up the following:

http://tonyphyrillas.blogspot.com/2009/06/stop-energy-tax-petition.html

And Mr. Phyrillas, like your YouTube video, I see did not bother to cite his sources. That's bad journalism, Mr. Phyrillas. Of course, the headline that made me laugh at obvious bias:

COMMON-SENSE VIEWPOINTS OF A CONSERVATIVE JOURNALIST WORKING IN A LIBERAL-DOMINATED MEDIA

Go for independent news sites; avoid blogs and sourceless pages.

http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/1154097

Another blog without sources and a link to that same YouTube video... without sources, lol.

http://ben932.vox.com/library/post/carbon-tax-petition.html

Sourceless blog, same YouTube video. *yawn*

I should get back to bed.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-obama-tax-increases.html

No sources, but at least it didn't use the YouTube video for a change.

Maybe what they are estimating is the number of job losses due to decrease in economic power?

It would be nice if we could have closure as to who this "they" is.

ANy energy tax, that is exactly what would be a direct result.

Strange on the "ANY" part, because there have been energy taxes before but decreased economic power has never been one of the effects. Of course, it's been quite a few decades since we faced a situation like we do now.

I'll dig more if I can find out. The way the statistics are derived may take some time. I'm wondering if it is a decreasing target over time, starting at 3 million and going backwards. I will see if it can be answered.

You do that, SUB; you do that...

:doh:

[SteamWake]

You want sources?

Here this article is full of them.

(http://www.openmarket.org/2009/06/08/stimulus-package-kills-jobs-drives-up-unemployment/)Stimulus Package Kills Jobs, Drives Up Unemployment (http://www.openmarket.org/2009/06/08/stimulus-package-kills-jobs-drives-up-unemployment/) (http://www.openmarket.org/2009/06/08/stimulus-package-kills-jobs-drives-up-unemployment/)

http://www.openmarket.org/2009/06/08/stimulus-package-kills-jobs-drives-up-unemployment/

[Stealth Hunter]

You want sources?

Here this article is full of them.



http://www.openmarket.org/2009/06/08/stimulus-package-kills-jobs-drives-up-unemployment/

Tried it. Did you even bother reading them?


The first one about "even higher" there leads to a Power Line BLOG entry by John Hinderaker that DOES NOT cite where it's getting its statistics and numbers from anywhere in it.


The second one about "1.5 million jobs have been lost" leads to AmericansforTaxReform.com (ATR), and does not cite where it is getting it's numbers from. It does, however, say that Tim Geithner's use of the term 'saved' was challenged heavily by the people, and it does link me to a Breitbart.com article. That's nice, but it doesn't give numbers or even mention 1.5 million jobs lost from Obama's stimulus package. More importantly, it doesn't even say where it got its numbers from (like the claim that each job loss costs taxpayers $2900). It lists a site as Recovery.gov for it, but I did not find these statistics there at all (and I searched for a good 20 minutes, too).

Later, it mentions some stuff about skateboard parks and zoos and jet hangers being built with the stimulus money, but all these links go to other ATR articles. They all cite their sources, however, and I'm grateful for that.


The claim that 40,000 jobs have been lost leads to a website called MexicoTrucker.com. It cites the National Review as its source and gives a direct article along with The Oregonian.

First off, the National Review article does not state ANYWHERE the number of 40,000 jobs being lost from retaliation and tariffs from Mexico. Second, The Oregonian does have the number 40,000 included, but unlike the original article on OpenMarket, it says that 40,000 jobs COULD BE lost; it does NOT say they WERE lost...


Now the final claim I'll be working on ATM is the one that the stimulus package and its spending drove interest rates up and thus harmed the economy (from OpenMarket). It cites Reason.com as its source, and I was linked to an entry by Brian Doherty that said economist Arnold Kling said that interest rates were PROJECTED to increase. They have NOT increased from the stimulus yet according to Mr. Kling, unlike what the OpenMarket article originally claims. But more importantly, Kling points out that stimulus spending does not actually begin until next year...


So much for their reliability thusfar. However, it's possible things will change. But there are like two dozen other linked "sources" to investigate, and I don't want to bother with them right now. I will, however, do it later. Cross my heart, lol.

[Aramike]

I think the point is this: I agree that an energy tax will indeed cost jobs. I think most people would fall in line with that idea. That being said, the job loss numbers claimed by some of the opposition is so pie-in-the-sky that anyone with half a brain will look at them as highly suspect, if not an outright lie.

Which leads us to the problem: there are many people who do not follow these issues closely, but do possess enough common sense to know that these claims are outlandish. How many of them will simply dismiss the idea of opposition entirely due to their dishonesty?

[Stealth Hunter]

Back.


So the next claim on that OpenMarket.com page is about large quantities of money being printed off for the government to buy its own bonds with. I clicked their link, and it took my to a podcast website and an entry by Glenn Reynolds that didn't state that anywhere or give statistics or facts (though it didn't run short on opinions). But most annoyingly of all, it did not cite sources either.


The next one about the national debt level took me to another OpenMarket article that did cite government sources instead of blogs and podcast pages for once. It listed the numbers we're dealing with, and I have no quarrel here. OM was right for once.


The next claim is that massively higher taxes will be an inevitable result of Obama's stimulus plan and the national debt level (and that there had already been a 12% increase). I agree taxes will be raised, but what are we talking about here with the term "massive"? They failed to clarify on that. Still I clicked the link it cited and it took me back to that Glenn Reynolds podcast website page. His claims took me to a USA Today article. While there had indeed been a 12% tax increase, this number stemmed in 2008 under Bush's stimulus plans and resolutions in conjunction with the nation debt level back when things were really bad and were just starting (around October). It had NOTHING to do at all with Obama (his name was not anywhere in it or even hinted at, lol).


And the final one I'll work on for the moment is about the economy shrinking due to the stimulus proposed by Obama "in the long run". I was taken to NPR, a good place to get news IMO, and got an article from the Congressional Budget Office. It did say the economy would shrink, but only by a margin of .02% AT MOST by 2019. The same article, as well, said that it would also help the economy in the short run and long run by creating jobs, and not hinder it (unlike the original claim). Then there was some clarification by the CBO about how they figured up their statistics, but nothing else there was relevant to OpenMarket's gross exaggerations.