Germany embarks on total and complete ban of killer games

[Skybird]

Breaking News, just in. German interior ministers have agreed to completely ban and forbid killer-games in all Germany. The prohibition should cover both production and selling of such games. This is in reaction to the latest school shooting in Germany. It also includes a good deal of populism. This was decided on a conferenece of all german interior ministers from all federal states.

http://www.welt.de/politik/article3866764/Innenminister-beschliessen-Verbot-von-Killerspielen.html?print=yes#reqdrucken


The issue will cause absolute polarisation between fans and critics, no doubt, and each camp will argue with total absolutes. They always did.

The truth, imo, would be found somewhere in the middle. I personally wanted much more regulation and bans of certain games, but i also think that it aims too short to assume that such games are the key trigger for people going nuts, I would see the time spend at a computer as a factor as important, and the question of wether or not the time spend with killer games is compensated by other, non-PC-related social activities as well. Just to give one example.

[Schroeder]

I love this country.:dead:

[Sledgehammer427]

yeesh.
thats pretty bad.
I could see some kind of Counter-Strike Underground...fun.

But to be honest, I have a relative idea of what it takes for kids (columbine and VA tech, for example) to go absolutely bonkers and shoot up a school. They are tired of this or that, their girl just left them, social outcasts, whatever, they get the crazy idea to shoot everyone who has caused problems for them. they use the games astraining more likely than not. since I cant ask any of them. Its a psychological issue. I played every Grand Theft Auto since GTA 3, and I still dont feel the urge to go out and kill people at random.

Frankly, a ban on all "killer" video games is a little extreme. There's easier ways to go about this. Metal detectors in school doors is a start, we had liaison police officers at my old high school. It wouldn't be too much to throw a police officer or two into a school. Perhaps better counselors? Do schools there even HAVE counselors? A ban on all "killer" games is a bit extensive. That, and you just can't get all of them.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well here ya go Skybird. Enjoy the new gaming genre!


http://www.barney.com/usa/index.asp

[antikristuseke]

This is complete bull****.

[CastleBravo]

How unfortunate. It is always dissapointing when a group of legislators don't seem to learn from the past. In the US there was a total ban on the sale and distribution of a certain product under the Volstead Act and it was an unmitigated disaster. Germany's geographic position would seem to make it difficult to stop cross border incusions, and people who want it would get the material in any case.

A better idea would be to tax the material rather heavily and earmark the revenue to mental health efforts.

[Skybird]

Frankly, a ban on all "killer" video games is a little extreme. There's easier ways to go about this. Metal detectors in school doors is a start, we had liaison police officers at my old high school.

With all due respect, but that comparison is a bit unfortunate, isn't it? If these two were the only options, I prefer a total ban of killer games to turning schools into police-controlled fortresses any time.

[antikristuseke]

Baning killer games will have no effect on school shootings, while metal detectors at the doors will hinder people bringing weapons into schools at least to some degree.

Though I agree, I am not for making schools into police controlled fortresses.

[Letum]

Germany seams to be big on censorship.

[SteamWake]

Would someone explain to me what a 'killer' game is?

Would duck hunt qualify?

How about Silent Hunter?

[Sledgehammer427]

With all due respect, but that comparison is a bit unfortunate, isn't it? If these two were the only options, I prefer a total ban of killer games to turning schools into police-controlled fortresses any time.

it wasnt a police-controlled fortress, per se. they were merely quick response people for incidents (fights being the most prevalent) but they also had that "im watching you" thing about them. it made me feel safer, anyways. Im suprised you missed my point about counselors. I seriously think more or better qualified counselors would help

Just my opinion.

[Skybird]

Well, obviously something is repsonsible for that schools are argued to be in need of using metal detectors, and having plicemen patrolling them. When I was at chool, we did nbot need that. Nobody brought weapons and iknifes into school. the most dangerous item we were armed with eventually were a Edding-type of marker pencil. Graffiti was the worst you coudl expect in violence.

This has chnaged. Mobbing is a rule in many German schools now. Knifes are brought in, gas-weapons, pepper-spray, etc. People vpoicing acceptance for having metal detectors and police patrols - 20 years ago nobody would even have imagined such a debate possible in the future.

So, something obviously has changed, but nobody wants to face the respnsibility. Not the movie makers showing explicit depictions of horror and violance. Not the TV makers, having constantly lowered the moral barriers on nudity and violence and crap TV. Not the makers of video games. Not the producers of firearms. Not the print media. Not the producers of alcoholic drinks.

Our youth is growing up in a more and more violent climate, and a culture that is fond of violence. What would have been a scandal 30 years ago, today'S does not make anybody raising his exebrow anymore.

Something has changed for the worse, but nobody wants to be the bad guy causing it. I assume it were some brownies then.

[CastleBravo]

Something has changed for the worse, but nobody wants to be the bad guy causing it. I assume it were some brownies then.


Many things have indeed changed over the past 30 years. However in my mind it is not healthy or fair to lay the blame at the doorstep of any particular industry, product or group. As far as children being responsible for many henious acts, that is why they are called immature, because they are. More attentive parenting may prove to be our best defense against such sad happenings. All too often, in the US anyway, we let others, whith less incentive to do good by our children (schools, TV, Video games, gov't, with silly laws) take care of said children.

I think we can trace many bad behaviors back to the home. A good paddling can do a world of good when dispensed fairly with consistent rules and without being abusive.

EDIT Having re-read that last part I don't mean to imply corperal discipline is the only option but boundries are important and should be established within the framework of the nuclear family.

[AVGWarhawk]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/23/32464318_d8cb33b466.jpg?v=0

[Dowly]

Piracy rates will go thru the roof in Germany, that's for sure. :har:

[Jimbuna]

Watch you don't go scaring your daughters with that thing :DL

[AVGWarhawk]

2009 Germany's game of the year! TV Pong

http://www.mndl.hu/files/pong.jpg

It does not get more radical than this!

[Dowly]

ROFL! :har:

[SteamWake]

More attentive parenting may prove to be our best defense against such sad happenings.

This !

How in the world could an attentive parent not know their child is planning on a killing spree?

[Letum]

How in the world could an attentive parent not know their child is planning on a killing spree?

I'm not so sure about this.
Secrets can be kept from the best of parents, especially if your deranged
enough to go on a killing spree.

[Stealth Hunter]

I'm not so sure about this.
Secrets can be kept from the best of parents, especially if your deranged
enough to go on a killing spree.

OT as far as Germany goes, but I always found it funny that the guy who shot John Lennon thought there were tiny little gnomes who lived in his walls and had a great civilization there... and he'd play music for them.:haha::doh:

[AVGWarhawk]

As a kid once and a parent now. Yes, there was plenty of crap my parents did not know about...not until the charges were brought up at trial:oops:

Although I like to think I know everything my daughters are doing I can not be 100% sure I do know everything. Hell, two weeks ago I found out my daughter was watching Criminal Minds. Christ, some of the episodes scare the crap out of me...she is only 14. Needless to say the TV got the parental control activated. ;)

[GoldenRivet]

Piracy rates will go thru the roof in Germany, that's for sure. :har:

and school shootings as well im afraid.

people dont realize but its not these games that cause kids to snap... its the constant teasing and rejection from their peers that causes these kids to flip out and kill half their class mates.

better ban movies and songs that deal with mayhem too and burn violent books... i hate to see Germany go all the way back 65 years to that school of thought.

:nope:

[SteamWake]

Cell Phones are next :03:

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09155/975068-100.stm

btw why does a 6th grader need a cell phone anyhow.

[AVGWarhawk]

Cell Phones are next :03:

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09155/975068-100.stm

btw why does a 6th grader need a cell phone anyhow.

They need to call their bookie:D

[Jimbuna]

I'd be asking why the need to use a stun gun on a kid simply for pushing....reasonable force? :hmmm:

[GoldenRivet]

I'd be asking why the need to use a stun gun on a kid simply for pushing....reasonable force? :hmmm:

stun guns are a whole other issue.

they have given the police an ability to use non-lethal force at will, in some cases - even when a perp is completely subdued.

for many officers this has become a crutch upon which they now stand.

when in doubt, they find themselves in a situation in which the old guard would have handled completely differently - now they just zap the guy into submission.

[Jimbuna]

Sounds just a tad excessive to me....taking into account the details posted.

[Skybird]

I'm not against this German move in general. I am against politicians trying to make it appear that this step alone solves a problem. It is a cultural problem, and video games are a part of modern culture and thus probably are only one part of that problem. A lot of other things must be adressed as well, as well as the social climate of family life that too often is no longer able to counter destructive influences in juvenile's life.

It also is not only the content of movies, games or TV, songs or books being a problem, but the ammount of time people expose themselves to these influences.

It also is about the fetish our modern media culture makes of displays of violence in general. This gets excused by that the industry just delivers what the market demands.

May I suggest the new and revolutionary thought then that maybe not every ####### demand of the "market" should be met by the industry. Drug dealers argue with market demands when selling heroin to 14 year olds. That one can make a fortune of selling something that does damage is no excuse to sell it, or even produce it. That includes games that glorify inhuman violence and show it in explicit detail - but is not limited to just these.

And did I already mention that there are elections in Germany this year? Never underestimate the mass suicide of braincells in an election year.

[GoldenRivet]

skybird... i would spend less time blaming violent movies and video games and more time concentrating on the social life of the youth in question.

As a kid, i watched R-Rated movies like Alien, Predator, all the nightmare on elm street flicks etc - some of those films i watched as early as 6 years old.

furthermore, as soon as video games were a hot item, i played all the violent ones... some were cool, some sucked, some you were just randomly wasting people with a shot gun.

through 6th 7th and 8th grade i was teased without mercy by a group of mouth breathers sometimes to the point of serious public humiliation in front of the whole school.

I grew up in a pro-gun home, i was an experienced hunter, shooter, marksman etc even at the age of 12-13 years old i was no stranger to any of the 70 some odd firearms in my home ranging from .22 pistols, to .45s to semi automatic shotguns to fully automatic weapons.

to say the least i was a pressure cooker - a perfect recipe for a school massacre - i had the means to pull it off - i had the capability - i had the proper motive everything had fallen into place except for one small series of things...

my parents gave me a happy home, we ate dinners at night together - usually - we went to the movies together and vacations together.

through it all i had a couple of best friends who were blind to the taunting i received at school, and who always made me feel welcomed and cared for no matter the circumstances.

fortunately as high school started i grew out of the awkward stage of life as most youths do, the teasing and taunting ended and before anyone knew it i was just another one of the "in crowd".

so despite having exposure to violent films and games, despite having the ingredients common to a kid who snaps and massacres his school - I didnt do it - and i credit that to a lot of what i mentioned above.

video games dont lead kids to kill their class mates - they target these people because 22-23 days out of any given month these people are making that kids life a literal living hell from which he has no escape. the child is usually not reached a point of maturity in life to figure out that if he blows away his teacher and class mates with a 12 gauge - thats permanent revenge... not a temporary one.

EDIT:

I guess PONG or perhaps SPACE INVADERS on the atari caused this kid to snap...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkway_South_Junior_High_School_shooting

its no new concept that people (regardless of age) flip out and kill their peers. video games or not

[Oberon]

If you ban something you only serve to increase the demand for it :damn:

[Skybird]

skybird... i would spend less time blaming violent movies and video games and more time concentrating on the social life of the youth in question.

Haven'T I said that myself? Just with the difference maybe that I do not exclude games and movies from their social life - it is integral part of it? In other words, games/movies are all part of the social life you have (even when you are all alone, then your social life is a mess), but social life is not entirely focussed on just games and movies. Where it is, maybe you have also a problem!? :hmmm:

[Hitman]

It would probably have been prefereable to put a limit of age for buying/playing them. No such games sold to childs, and adults who buy it will be responsable if the game ends in a sub-18 year old child. More or less like alcohol and tobacco.


Wonder if a similar movement is to be expected regarding the cinema and TV movies, which also show sometimes a good amount of gore and violence. And what about paint ball shooters? :hmmm: Because that is also in the same line...

I'm not willing to enter a discussion of pros and cons of forbidding videogames, but I don't understand well -since the decission is already taken- why to be so selective and leave so many other "violent" social areas open.

[AVGWarhawk]

It would probably have been prefereable to put a limit of age for buying/playing them. No such games sold to childs, and adults who buy it will be responsable if the game ends in a sub-18 year old child. More or less like alcohol and tobacco.



The kids will get them anyway. I always did when I was a kid....well, the beer and tobacco. Video games when I was a kid required quarters and I think I had TV Pong at that time.:oops:

[Task Force]

skybird... i would spend less time blaming violent movies and video games and more time concentrating on the social life of the youth in question.

As a kid, i watched R-Rated movies like Alien, Predator, all the nightmare on elm street flicks etc - some of those films i watched as early as 6 years old.

furthermore, as soon as video games were a hot item, i played all the violent ones... some were cool, some sucked, some you were just randomly wasting people with a shot gun.

through 6th 7th and 8th grade i was teased without mercy by a group of mouth breathers sometimes to the point of serious public humiliation in front of the whole school.

I grew up in a pro-gun home, i was an experienced hunter, shooter, marksman etc even at the age of 12-13 years old i was no stranger to any of the 70 some odd firearms in my home ranging from .22 pistols, to .45s to semi automatic shotguns to fully automatic weapons.

to say the least i was a pressure cooker - a perfect recipe for a school massacre - i had the means to pull it off - i had the capability - i had the proper motive everything had fallen into place except for one small series of things...

my parents gave me a happy home, we ate dinners at night together - usually - we went to the movies together and vacations together.

through it all i had a couple of best friends who were blind to the taunting i received at school, and who always made me feel welcomed and cared for no matter the circumstances.

fortunately as high school started i grew out of the awkward stage of life as most youths do, the teasing and taunting ended and before anyone knew it i was just another one of the "in crowd".

so despite having exposure to violent films and games, despite having the ingredients common to a kid who snaps and massacres his school - I didnt do it - and i credit that to a lot of what i mentioned above.

video games dont lead kids to kill their class mates - they target these people because 22-23 days out of any given month these people are making that kids life a literal living hell from which he has no escape. the child is usually not reached a point of maturity in life to figure out that if he blows away his teacher and class mates with a 12 gauge - thats permanent revenge... not a temporary one.

EDIT:

I guess PONG or perhaps SPACE INVADERS on the atari caused this kid to snap...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkway_South_Junior_High_School_shooting

its no new concept that people (regardless of age) flip out and kill their peers. video games or not

Agreed... as a student in one of the s****y US school systems. Teasing and people being a** holes is a frequently occuring thing. (now days It goes all through school. I see it in everygrade.) I myself know what it is like to be treated like s*** by kids & administraitors... It is because no one does anything to try to stop anything... And some people like I learn to deal with the stuff... some dont... and some go crazy...

I agree to some point... with some individuals the media does help abit. but not with all. Most of it in my opinion is built up anger and pressure from other people. Gangs and things like gangs could brainwash a person to do something like this. (kind of like some cults.) Also where the individual lives, and the life they live. Lots of factors fall into place when It comes to the Child/Teen/adult in shootings. Mental state is a very large factor, a person could have mental issues, without violence or with...

There peers could be a large part... excessive jokeing and things in that aspect could cause a person to go crazy. I know... I had issues with mother f**kers my entire school carear (10 years of the s***) and the administation of the schools dont care... pffft a detention... a slap on the wrists... nothin much... and sometimes nothing.

Media... Yep... The media, puts pressure on kids trying to change them and make them into different people, sometimes pushing them overboard. Music... even though I like it... Music can be quite violent at times, which a kid with a un stable mind can take seriously or something like that. And yes games can be violent, but EVERYONE who plays games I know has violent vediogames... So If Its games... there should be a greater number of school shootings. also shootings have been around before mass media/games came out.

Its not just games... Its people, and all the factors of there lifes that could drive them to the point of a school shooting.

I think that baning games like these is stupid... theys just cause a uproar, and help pirates get more downloads.

[Skybird]

It would probably have been prefereable to put a limit of age for buying/playing them. No such games sold to childs, and adults who buy it will be responsable if the game ends in a sub-18 year old child. More or less like alcohol and tobacco.

We have that already. Games are rated for 12, 16 and 18 year olds, movie DVDs as well.

Effect: pretty much zero, I would say. Plus that it has not ben controlled that shops obey these age verifications.

We have a very intense political dispute currently on wether or not teenagers should be allowed to function as test buyers (acompanied by covered officials and/or police) to check if shops sell them cigarettes and alcohol without asking for their ID card to verify their age. If the age is in doubt, most DO NOT ask. Since years, numbers of coma-drinkers and drunkien teenagers are climbing over here. Some say: "No, that is intrusive." Others say "We should appeal to the good will of traders." And "That is child abuse, it is not a teenager's duty to expose himself to the risk of buying alcohol." Or "Let'S find a pedagogical solution - let's tell them to be reasonable, all of a sudden." And "I appeal to traders and parents to be aware of their responsibility." And more stupid, braindead BS like this.

A moment when I either burst in yelling laughter or get a red face in anger with murderous fantasies on my mind? When politicians mount themselves in front of microphones and start a sentence by saying "I appeal to XYZ to..." That shows me that I am dealing with a brain-amputated, irresponsibly naive professional fulltime-idiot not living in reality. It's one of the most stupid phrases to be used in politics. And that means something, since there are so incredibly many stupid phrases in politics.

[surf_ten]

What other things will they try to ban once the powers that be learn that banning violent games will not prevent a mentally unstable person from commiting violent acts.

[Rilder]

What is there like 5 games in world that exist with some sort of violence? I mean even tetris could be considered a killing game because you are killing rows of blocks.

Betting on this in a a few months:

"Scientists have discovered that 100% of Violent Criminals breath oxygen, Germany has taken steps to prevent violence by banning oxygen."

100% of Violent Criminals have Di-hydrogen Monoxide in their system. Ban Water.

I hear having a brain is the leading cause of violence too, I wonder if Germany will ban the possession of brain, its not like any of their politicians have one.

[mookiemookie]

http://www.worldcoast.ca/files/images/violentgames.preview.jpg

[Skybird]

What is there like 5 games in world that exist with some sort of violence? I mean even tetris could be considered a killing game because you are killing rows of blocks.

Betting on this in a a few months:

"Scientists have discovered that 100% of Violent Criminals breath oxygen, Germany has taken steps to prevent violence by banning oxygen."

100% of Violent Criminals have Di-hydrogen Monoxide in their system. Ban Water.

I hear having a brain is the leading cause of violence too, I wonder if Germany will ban the possession of brain, its not like any of their politicians have one.



The issue will cause absolute polarisation between fans and critics, no doubt, and each camp will argue with total absolutes.
Maybe I should have added "...and construct the most absurd extremes of examples to back up their opinion." :-?

[surf_ten]

That is a interesting graph Mookiemoookie. The crime rate is actually going down despite the increase violent content in recent games.

[August]

That is a interesting graph Mookiemoookie. The crime rate is actually going down despite the increase violent content in recent games.

I don't think the graph should be considered to be an accurate representation.

First off in some countries the violent crime rate has gone up over the same period and second i'd bet if you applied that to a graph of school shootings and other violent crimes committed by minors it would tell a different story.

[Letum]

Yes, the graph looks a little suspect to me.
Violent crime only started to fall in the US in the early 90s according to the best statistics I can find.

[SUBMAN1]

And how do they plan to stop BitTorrent?

The people that still want them will still get them.

-S

[mookiemookie]

I don't think the graph should be considered to be an accurate representation.

First off in some countries the violent crime rate has gone up over the same period and second i'd bet if you applied that to a graph of school shootings and other violent crimes committed by minors it would tell a different story.

The percentage of students ages 12 to 18 victimized by violence and theft at school decreased between 1995 and 2005, and remained unchanged between 2005 and 2007. In 1995 about 10 percent of students were victims of violence or theft, compared to 4 percent in 2005 and 2007.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm#school

[SUBMAN1]

http://www.worldcoast.ca/files/images/violentgames.preview.jpg

This is not true. This coincides with the release of concealed carry permits. It just became a lot more dangerous for criminals to prey on people. Same thing happens in DC for example. Lots of home break ins there. Look at the same statistic in Arizona. It is quite different. Breaking into a home in Arizona usually carry's significant penalties for the criminal, one that might possibly be a life sentence when he gets shot. This is not a problem in DC, or at least wasn't in the past. Not sure if people are allowed to have a loaded firearm in their home there now, but I think they can after the SCOTUS ruling.

-S

[August]

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm#school

From your quoted link:




In every year from 1992 to 2006, students ages 12-18 were more likely to experience a serious violent crime away from school than at school.
In 2007, about a third (32%) of public and private school students ages 12-18 reported that they have been bullied at school within the past six months.
Among high school students in grades 9-12, about 12% said they got into a fight on school property in 2007.
In 2007, 10% of male students and 5% of female student reported experiencing a threat or injury with a weapon on school property.

[mookiemookie]

From your quoted link:

I'm not sure what you're getting at, as those are point in time statistics and don't measure a trend over a period of years. That makes them essentially worthless for this discussion.

This is much more relevant:

Juvenile Arrest Rates for All Crimes, 1980-2007

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.gov/ojstatbb/crime/images/qa05200.gif

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.gov/ojstatbb/crime/JAR_Display.asp?ID=qa05200

[Letum]

Yes, the graph looks a little suspect to me.
Violent crime only started to fall in the US in the early 90s according to the best statistics I can find.

I'm an idiot.
The graph also shows violent crime peaking in the early 90s.

[SUBMAN1]

I'm an idiot.
The graph also shows violent crime peaking in the early 90s.

Yep. You aren't seeing enough of it. It was on an upward trend since the 40's. This was the argument people used to push CCP permits through. Shortly after, crime began to recede. Today, it is pretty low.

As for Mookie mookies arrest sheet, that is meaningless. Maybe they decided to arrest more people for a given thing at one point when they would have got a warning before, and then stopped arresting for it later on. It is not telling you what they were arrested for. A violent crime arrest rate would be more telling.

Of course you could do like the UK and just manipulate what you are reporting to make things look better. They started doing this in the 1990's to 2000's to make it seem as if crime is going down when it fact it was rising.

Did you guys ever get that straightened out? I hope you did.

-S

[Skybird]

That is a interesting graph Mookiemoookie. The crime rate is actually going down despite the increase violent content in recent games.
It means nothing, since there is zero statistical anaylsis given on forming a link between the two. In the nineties, I did shave off my beared. Maybe this made crime rates going so and so, up or down, and it contributed to the video games scene to make suczh and such kind of games?

All,

stop abusing statistics here if you do not know methodology. Leave abusing statistics to those who are experts in abusing them - leave it to politicians. A simultaneity of two events does not make a correlation, a correlation is no causal link.

[Task Force]

And how do they plan to stop BitTorrent?

The people that still want them will still get them.

-S

Ya know. you have a point. And theyl get them free.:hmmm:

[Letum]

It means nothing, since there is zero statistical anaylsis given on forming a link between the two.

That might be his point.

[goldorak]

Piracy rates will go thru the roof in Germany, that's for sure. :har:

Just order the fu**cking game on amazon.co.uk or and any other european e-tailer. Thats one of the advantages of being part of the EU.

[Jimbuna]

Just order the fu**cking game on amazon.co.uk or and any other european e-tailer. Thats one of the advantages of being part of the EU.

Freedom of trade throughout a borderless community. :yeah:

I somehow think it would end up like the differing controls regarding drugs between Britain and Holland for example....and almost impossible to enforce. :hmmm:

[OneToughHerring]

I'm a little drawn on this one. On the one hand I don't think this particular thing will solve anything in Germany. On the other hand I'm glad that at least one government in Europe is still able to enforce things with the aim of improving things for the citizens and not just about helping to make the über-rich even richer.

Btw, it's so funny to see Americans getting their panties in a bunch over the miniscule UK gun crime figures. I mean, it's like 1/100th of USA's figures.

[mookiemookie]

Yep. You aren't seeing enough of it. It was on an upward trend since the 40's. This was the argument people used to push CCP permits through. Shortly after, crime began to recede. Today, it is pretty low.

As for Mookie mookies arrest sheet, that is meaningless. Maybe they decided to arrest more people for a given thing at one point when they would have got a warning before, and then stopped arresting for it later on. It is not telling you what they were arrested for. A violent crime arrest rate would be more telling.

Of course you could do like the UK and just manipulate what you are reporting to make things look better. They started doing this in the 1990's to 2000's to make it seem as if crime is going down when it fact it was rising.

Did you guys ever get that straightened out? I hope you did.

-S

Here's your VIOLENT CRIMES portion of the data. Now can we all agree that the prevalence of juvenile crime has been steady to declining throughout the 90's/2000s?

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/ojstatbb/crime/images/qa05201.gif

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/ojstatbb/crime/JAR_Display.asp?ID=qa05201

[August]

Here's your VIOLENT CRIMES portion of the data. Now can we all agree that the prevalence of juvenile crime has been steady to declining throughout the 90's/2000s?

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/ojstatbb/crime/images/qa05201.gif

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/ojstatbb/crime/JAR_Display.asp?ID=qa05201

Arrests do not equal crimes committed, nor does that graph show that big of a drop. It could be due to something as simple as a change in law enforcement focus.

[August]

Oh and that little bump in 2006 looks a lot like the one that heralded the meteoric rise in the early '90's.

[nikimcbee]

Just look at the bright side. Just think of all of the cool mods you can do for Petz, simzoo, etc.:woot:

[talesofvalor]

What luck that I live in Austria!

[JHuschke]

Killer games are fun, but to some people..it just goes straight to their head and they actually would enjoy doing the same thing in real life. But, you never know who that is going to be or where someone is going to be shot.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Piracy rates will go thru the roof in Germany, that's for sure. :har:

Exactly. There goes the last of the moral qualms anybody will have against just BTing said "killer games" for free on the Internet - you can't even say some hard working game maker's livelihood is being threatened, because he can't sell the game in Germany anyway...

It means nothing, since there is zero statistical anaylsis given on forming a link between the two. In the nineties, I did shave off my beared. Maybe this made crime rates going so and so, up or down, and it contributed to the video games scene to make suczh and such kind of games?

We all know statistics aren't perfect (especially crime stats that depend on a wide, layered variety of assumptions), but at least he offered something on his side within this thread, which is better than what you did.

Now, outlining the general topic at hand:

In utilitarian terms, this measure involves a 100% probability of negatively affecting the interests of a significant percentage of the population for a vague possibility of positively affecting an insignificant percentage of the population (however many school shootings show up in the news, as a percentage of the student body the number is insignificant - we won't be living in the same world if it did).

On the Plus side, while it would be a real groaner for our Violent Game Players, the deaths caused by school shootings obviously have a much higher value than the displeasure of our game players. Still, even THOSE would be such an insignificant percentage that it is hard to believe the math would wind up favoring this measure.

Even generously assuming that this measure will eliminate further school shootings, it will be an upward climb to justify in the face of the sheer disparity in affected percentages.

To further add to that is the fact that thanks to BT, this measure would be nearly ineffective against Violent Game Players. It is just like an anti-gun law, except the proliferation of BT is much higher than illegal guns. In the end, only the most law-abiding segment (thus least likely to commit crime) guys will actually get hurt.

Sure, you can add anti-BT measures and all that to try and put a stop to it, now you are just pouring into the Loss side of the ledger. In short, any way you cut it, the actual balance will be nearly ZERO gain for definite loss.

[Skybird]

We all know statistics aren't perfect (especially crime stats that depend on a wide, layered variety of assumptions), but at least he offered something on his side within this thread, which is better than what you did.

You are wrong. Its better not to post any statistics that are porked, than to post statistics that are porked (and then say that would be better than nothing). Because the latter is actively misleading, while the first simply does not make any statement.

And I posted that old reply in reference to the obviously manipulative graph construction with the game covers in it by Mookie, since it is not clear to me wether that was meant as a joke, or for real.

Flawed data is better than no data? You must be kidding. It can even do greater damage than no data.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

You are wrong. Its better not to post any statistics that are porked, than to post statistics that are porked (and then say that would be better than nothing). Because the latter is actively misleading, while the first simply does not make any statement.

And I posted that old reply in reference to the obviously manipulative graph construction with the game covers in it by Mookie, since it is not clear to me wether that was meant as a joke, or for real.

Flawed data is better than no data? You must be kidding. It can even do greater damage than no data.

That's true, but for that to be so, you'll have to SHOW it is flawed. The datasource clearly has an agenda, but that's far from showing it is flawed.

The chart obviously cannot prove that Violent Video Games reduce crime. But as far as I can see MM never said it was meant to do that. It IS enough to strike a blow (though not a knockout) at people who want to claim the other direction, by showing that if anything, the data seems to be in the inverse direction.

[Skybird]

You are about data quality. I am about a basic flaw in methodology. I would need to show the data is flawed if there is a causal link between the two variables in that graph. But in fact the graph is not even expressing a correlation, which in itsaelf also does not express a cuasal link. It simply is a suggestive picture claiming an opinion by trying to give a false impression of being solid data.

Let's stop this useless debate over nothing that would be worth the effort. I think it is absolutely clear what I point at.

[RickC Sniper]

Violent video games came about because there was a market for them. We are a violent society. We like to play these games. I do not believe violent games breed killers, but allow people to "vent" or blow off steam, which is healthy.

Our society has become more violent and it would have become so with or with out any video games.

The odd duck who goes postal and kills a bunch of people is just an abnormality of society and if there continues to be more and more of them they just represent a growing violent society as a whole.

Personal opinion here with no data to back this up. It is just what I believe.

[AVGWarhawk]

Game of the Year, Germany 2009! :woot:




http://www.gamersfactory.com/ImageViewer.ashx?ImageID=4298

[Wolfehunter]

skybird... i would spend less time blaming violent movies and video games and more time concentrating on the social life of the youth in question.

As a kid, i watched R-Rated movies like Alien, Predator, all the nightmare on elm street flicks etc - some of those films i watched as early as 6 years old.

furthermore, as soon as video games were a hot item, i played all the violent ones... some were cool, some sucked, some you were just randomly wasting people with a shot gun.

through 6th 7th and 8th grade i was teased without mercy by a group of mouth breathers sometimes to the point of serious public humiliation in front of the whole school.

I grew up in a pro-gun home, i was an experienced hunter, shooter, marksman etc even at the age of 12-13 years old i was no stranger to any of the 70 some odd firearms in my home ranging from .22 pistols, to .45s to semi automatic shotguns to fully automatic weapons.

to say the least i was a pressure cooker - a perfect recipe for a school massacre - i had the means to pull it off - i had the capability - i had the proper motive everything had fallen into place except for one small series of things...

my parents gave me a happy home, we ate dinners at night together - usually - we went to the movies together and vacations together.

through it all i had a couple of best friends who were blind to the taunting i received at school, and who always made me feel welcomed and cared for no matter the circumstances.

fortunately as high school started i grew out of the awkward stage of life as most youths do, the teasing and taunting ended and before anyone knew it i was just another one of the "in crowd".

so despite having exposure to violent films and games, despite having the ingredients common to a kid who snaps and massacres his school - I didnt do it - and i credit that to a lot of what i mentioned above.

video games dont lead kids to kill their class mates - they target these people because 22-23 days out of any given month these people are making that kids life a literal living hell from which he has no escape. the child is usually not reached a point of maturity in life to figure out that if he blows away his teacher and class mates with a 12 gauge - thats permanent revenge... not a temporary one.

EDIT:

I guess PONG or perhaps SPACE INVADERS on the atari caused this kid to snap...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkway_South_Junior_High_School_shooting

its no new concept that people (regardless of age) flip out and kill their peers. video games or not
Very similar for me too. I didn't go around murdering people even though I hated some. I let my fists handle that department. I had access to guns and I brought rifles and pistols to school as a halloween act for my costume. I didn't have a need to kill some one? Why? I would loose my family, my friends and my life for a stupid event? Naw.

These guys have issue from the start. There brains aren't working. Violent games give them a release but its only temporary. Something sparks there inner anger and bang they go crazy. Still there crazy from the start. Just no one saw it till it was too late. Or more realistically no one cares untill its too late.

Movies, music and games are not the triggers to mass murders. The way children are being educated, raised and there weak mental health are contributing factors.

[SteamWake]

Game of the Year, Germany 2009! :woot:




http://www.gamersfactory.com/ImageViewer.ashx?ImageID=4298

LOL Im no expert but I'm pretty sure that cake is bad for your hamsters. Therefore this game sets a bad example and should be banned !

[AVGWarhawk]

LOL Im no expert but I'm pretty sure that cake is bad for your hamsters. Therefore this game sets a bad example and should be banned !


Disclaimer, no animals were hurt in the making of this game.:D

[Sonarman]

I remember reading an interview with Sid Meier back in the late eighties in which he stated that the original C64 Microprose "Silent Service" game could not be sold in normal game outlets in Germany and was only available in sex shops! How times have changed.