DG1.5 - the opening attack

[jdkbph]

So has anyone ever been able to achieve near historical results or better?... at least major damage to several Russian units with no (or very few) losses on the Japanese side?

If so, how?

Every time I run this opening battle the IJN attackers get hammered.

JD

[jdkbph]

Wow! Nobody playing this?

[PeriscopeDepth]

I personally never play the campaigns with the opening attack as the results have always been too extreme for my tastes as well.

PD

[jdkbph]

I guess the problem I'm having has to do with reconciling the idea of a sneak attack with the coordinated and aggressive response from the Russians.... as if they were prepared for it but perhaps just didn't know the exact time and place.

I wonder if there's any sort of provision in the game for "strategic surprise" as I've seen in some other games. I am taking the "GQ sounded - ready in X minutes" thing into account, but I don't think that adequately covers this particular scenario.

I've thought about skipping this part and going straight to the historical campaign, but i didn't want to miss out on that second battle (Chemulpo)

JD

[alexsmith]

When I play for Russians, I usually lost only Pallada through first jap attack - I know guys who were able to save it too. As Japanese I drowned four or five lights cruisers - which is far enough to win the complete game.

Yet I didn't try to play for Japanese in 1.5 - not finished Russian company - so can't say. Still think this is quite similar...

[jdkbph]

Can you say how you managed that result playing the IJN side?

For instance...

Did you maintain the default headings and keep the speed low (10 knots I think) to avoid detection, or speed up to close the range more quickly?

Did you maintain the starting formations and relative positions or did you manuever your divisions independently? If the latter, what did you do?

How close did you approach before turning to open the arcs for your torpedo tubes? At what range did you actually launch torpedoes?

Did you rely on the standard "torpedo free" order for the entire force, or did you issue specific targeting orders?

Thanks in advance....

JD

[alexsmith]

Again - my experience in torpedding Russian ship is only from 1.0 version - don't know how it would be in 1.5

But in 1.0 I didn't find any difficulties to hit immovable ship - even from margin distance. Sometimes more save/load tactics help ;) Especially when your dumb miners don't throw torpedoes as expected - look at this like at the bug ;)

Can your please tell - what is going wrong when you play? You can't get close enough to release torpedoes? Or they miss? Or what? Hitting a moving defending ship with torpedo is sometimes a complex task - but stalled ship should be easy targets, shouldn't they?

I usually target every DD individually - as they are not smart enough to attack in division. The point is to track target in fire range for a some time - to allow miners to prepare torpedoes. And the other problem - despite that they miss too often - you may push an enemy ship with 4 or 5 torpedoes none of which is exploding or leaves too less damage. In this situation save/load often helps ;)

[mike_espo]

I remember playing this scenario a few years ago. The Japs with their TBD attack. Playing the Russians, I lost a cruiser and one BB was damaged for a couple of months. I think this was historic. :DL

[Bullethead]

This is a tough scenario for the IJN. The problem is that if you get in close enough to launch torps, or if you hang around to lauch a lot of torps, you're going to lose some or many DDs. The historical results of only 3 hits and no IJN losses was, IIRC, due to the Russians waking up and shooting furiously, which made most of the IJN DDs stay too far away to hit anything, but most of them weren't hit, either. I could be wrong, but I think the only IJN torp hits came early on, while they still had at least some surprise.

The key to this battle is how long it takes the Russians to spot the IJN. The Russians only sound GQ and start counting down their surprise timers AFTER 1 ship spots an IJN DD. Thus, the closer the IJN can get before being spotted, the better for them.

An important part of remaining invisible is the speed of the IJN DDs. The faster they go, they easier they are to see. Coal-burning DDs and TBs of their era had very short funnels so at high power they had a lot of incomplete combustion in the boilers. This hot, unburned gas would burst into flames as it left the funnel, lighting up the ship. This is why the IJN DDs start out at slow speed, and why the AI keeps them slow until they're spotted.

Being end-on to the enemy also makes you harder to see. So when I play the IJN, what I normally do is turn the flotillas in succession parallel to the Russian line, then turn them together to make the approach at 10 knots or even 8 in line abreast. Once I get about 1200m from the Russians (assuming I haven't yet been spotted), I turn them all together back parallel to the Russians, launch, then turn together and withdraw while accelerating to top speed. This allows all the DDs to start running away at once instead of the tail-end charlies being stuck in murder range while the leaders run. And of course each DD can launch at a different Russian.

The important targets for the IJN are the cruisers on the outer, most vulnerable row: Askold, Boyarin, and Novik. Sinking Russian BBs and the slower cruisers isn't very important in this battle because your main units can usually deal with them. If you go for the Russian BBs, you're going to lose most of your DDs because you have to get in deep and won't be able to get out before you start taking lots of fire.

However, even sinking the Russian cruisers isn't THAT critical at this stage, and isn't worth losing a lot of DDs over. So if the Russians spot you early on the way in, just break off the attack and go home without launching.

[alexsmith]

However, even sinking the Russian cruisers isn't THAT critical at this stage, and isn't worth losing a lot of DDs over. So if the Russians spot you early on the way in, just break off the attack and go home without launching.

Let me please disagree with you ;) The more light cruisers Japan could sink during the first surprise attack - the more easily they can win! Because hunting down fast light cruisers is most vital task for IJN to win whole campaing. If most of the Russian cruisers speeding more than 20 knots are destroyed - the goal is achieved - because other's may be beaten almost easily with major IJN BB forces. And what to DD's - I actually see no point to save them at all - never they will be helpful during the game after first attack. Sink down full prepared cruiser even in a night attack is a trick - I think :) Also don't forget than your DD's dont' always throw torpedoes when you may expect... ;)

[Bullethead]

Let me please disagree with you ;) The more light cruisers Japan could sink during the first surprise attack - the more easily they can win!

Quite true. However, sometimes easy isn't as fun as challenging, it takes a long time for PA to fall even with total command of the seas, and I find DDs quite useful for many tasks. For instance, they're among the few IJN units that can lay mines. Besides, you never know when a big fleet action is going to go haywire on you, and then you need your DDs to stave off pursuit. 2PacRon is coming, regardless of what happens to PA. So, when I play the IJN, given the choice, I'll conserve my DDs and have to sweat out hunting down the Russian cruisers while waiting for PA to fall.

[alexsmith]

I'll conserve my DDs and have to sweat out hunting down the Russian cruisers while waiting for PA to fall.
You hunt down cruisers with DDs??? You ARE able to pull DD against a full functional cruiser not to be killed? And your DDs always throw torpedoes, and torpedoes do explode and do damage to a cruiser? ;)

In 1.5 I only used DDs once - when fighting Chin-Yen with friends by my BBs. In a later stage when enemy ships were almost all heavy I tried to attack them by eight DDs. At closer range, at low speed, on following course - I could not force either of DD to throw torpedo at all! Neither with Torpedo target ship nor with Torpedo target free. They probably decided they don't need to fire when enemy is almost finished - what an AI! :)

In my humble opinion instead of making distinct torpedo controls (which by the way probably is quite usefull in Jutland but absolutely useless in DG) there would be great if only one more button appeared - Hold torpedoes. Which means - aim and target but not release untill order. Now when DG is on the Jutland's engine - it possibly became more "jutlandic" than it should be ;)

[Bullethead]

You hunt down cruisers with DDs???

No. My DDs mostly fill the Port Arthur area up with mines and kill off the raiding Russian DDs, which my cruisers usually can't catch. They also screen my BBs from Russian DDs and finish off cripples in fleet battles. All in all, I find them very useful and hate to lose any of them.

I will throw TBs at Russian cruisers, provided I can attack from head-on. The IJN has so many TBs that you can afford to lose a lot of them, which is what usually happens. I've had some success this way, too. One time I charged Askold and Novik with 8 TBs and sunk both of them for the loss of 4 TBs. A good trade, I say :).

I could not force either of DD to throw torpedo at all! Neither with Torpedo target ship nor with Torpedo target free. They probably decided they don't need to fire when enemy is almost finished - what an AI! :)

What was the sea condition? DDs are very low, and if waves are washing over their decks, they're unable to fire their torpedos. It doesn't take much water to make this happen, and the problem wasn't really solved until they started building bigger DDs with raised forecastle decks. RJW-vintage DDs are just large versions of TBs.

In my humble opinion instead of making distinct torpedo controls (which by the way probably is quite usefull in Jutland but absolutely useless in DG) there would be great if only one more button appeared - Hold torpedoes. Which means - aim and target but not release untill order. Now when DG is on the Jutland's engine - it possibly became more "jutlandic" than it should be ;)

Why do you say that being able to aim a ship's torps at a specific target is useless in DG? It works fine for me and I find it quite useful.

[alexsmith]

What was the sea condition? DDs are very low, and if waves are washing over their decks, they're unable to fire their torpedos. It doesn't take much water to make this happen, and the problem wasn't really solved until they started building bigger DDs with raised forecastle decks. RJW-vintage DDs are just large versions of TBs.

maybe. I could probably miss it. Don't you think a some on-screen icon displaying aproximately weather conditions would be great?


Why do you say that being able to aim a ship's torps at a specific target is useless in DG? It works fine for me and I find it quite useful.I mean SEPARATE targeting! I doubt I can find any reasonable situation in which guns should fire in one direction and torpedoes opposite! In DG I mean - in Jutland as I've already told it may be quite reasonable - maybe.

Considering fact that sometimes torpedo targeting commands does not work at all - I order to target specific ship, but target is changed suddenly - please, check this out, might be bug ;) And of course - I understand how visibility affects targeting - so please - do not send me back to manual ;)

All I want to say that separate targeting is complex but does not solve the main (IMHO) problem - shooting from margin distance. When DD enters targeting range - it should prepare weapons to be ready to launch torpedoes by order - but not to throw them from 1km! To achive this you must do a lots of tricky things - target only from short distance and wait untill torpedoes train to target - which is sometimes too dangerous - or stop targeting just before launch - and target again at short distance - or do a lot of tricky manoeuvres... These all are toooo complex - especially when you attack by several DD at the same time. All is required - as I think - is a button Hold torpedoes/Release torpedoes - and DD might become quite helpful when they start to launch torpedoes just when YOU want it - not they ;)

[Bullethead]

maybe. I could probably miss it. Don't you think a some on-screen icon displaying aproximately weather conditions would be great?

There is one. One of the buttons along the right edge of the screen is the weather report. This gives the wind speed and direction, the wave height, etc.

I mean SEPARATE targeting! I doubt I can find any reasonable situation in which guns should fire in one direction and torpedoes opposite! In DG I mean - in Jutland as I've already told it may be quite reasonable - maybe.

This is quite useful in DG, too. It's a question of geometry. Suppose your DD is going parallel to an enemy line. The best gun target is the one on the broadside directly across from the DD. However, the best torpedo target is the ship next astern of the gun target, due to torpedoes having to lead the target a lot due to their slow speed.

Considering fact that sometimes torpedo targeting commands does not work at all - I order to target specific ship, but target is changed suddenly - please, check this out, might be bug ;)

The reason that your ship changes her torpedo target is because you gave it a target that was impossible to hit, and which will never apparently become possible to hit. The ship knows, however, that you want it to launch torpedoes and that it probably won't live much longer, so it picks a target it CAN hit, viewing torpedoes as a "use them or lose them" thing.

Assuming the water is calm enough, getting torpedoes to launch requires that you meet their launch parameters. These are:

The predicted impact point (not the target itself) is within the tube's arc of fire at the moment of launch.
The predicted impact point (not the target itself) is within the torpedo's range at the moment of launch.
If the launch parameters are not met when you give your ship a specific torpedo target, she will track that target for a little while to see whether the parameters will ever be met. If so, then your ship will continue to track that target and will launch when the parameters are met but subsequent movement of both your ship and the target. OTOH, if these conditions will apparently never be met, the ship will sometimes switch to a different target where the launch parameters ARE met, under the assumption that you want to launch torpedoes and hitting something else is better than being sunk before launching at all. If there's no other parameter-meeting target available, then your ship won't launch at all.

Torpedoes of the RJW only have ranges of 800-1200m. As such, they are unable to reach moving targets when fired from very much behind the target's beam. Remember, they have to end up somewhere ahead of where the target is now, and the further behind the target you are when you launch, the further ahead the impact point will be. Also, the further behind the target's beam you are, the closer to the target you have to be before you can launch.

The best way to use torpedoes, therefore, is to approach the target on a parallel but opposite course. In fact, this is the only approach I ever make on a moving target, because it also minimizes my exposure to enemy fire, both in terms of range and time spent under fire before I can launch. Plus, the torps arrive at the best angle and have the best chance of hitting when fired from ahead of the target.

What I like to do is have my DDs move in line astern more or less perpendicular to the target's course, then turn simultaneously for a head-on approach. This puts some of the flotilla on both sides of the target, leaving it no place to run when it tries to dodge the torpedoes ;).

When DD enters targeting range - it should prepare weapons to be ready to launch torpedoes by order - but not to throw them from 1km!

You just need to work on the timing of giving the launch order. Only give it as the DDs are approaching the point you want to launch from, so that by the times the tubes swing onto the target, you're in the right place. It's not that hard to do.

[alexsmith]

There is one. One of the buttons along the right edge of the screen is the weather report. This gives the wind speed and direction, the wave height, etc.

Yeah. I know :) I mean - an icon DISPLAING weather - like in a weather reports, you know - "light rain", "heavy rain", "fog", "high waves", "low visibility" - indicating the overall weather conditions affecting the battle.


This is quite useful in DG, too. It's a question of geometry. Suppose your DD is going parallel to an enemy line. The best gun target is the one on the broadside directly across from the DD. However, the best torpedo target is the ship next astern of the gun target, due to torpedoes having to lead the target a lot due to their slow speed.

You mean - on ths same course? To fire at the pre-last ship to hit the last? It's a bit tricky, isn't it? More chance to miss at all ;)


The reason that your ship changes her torpedo target is because you gave it a target that was impossible to hit, and which will never apparently become possible to hit. The ship knows, however, that you want it to launch torpedoes and that it probably won't live much longer, so it picks a target it CAN hit, viewing torpedoes as a "use them or lose them" thing.

This means computer knows something I don't know - about when and where that ship will sink? Great! So instead of executing exact order computer decides to do what itself think is better! This explains while sometimes ships leave their line and start drawing circles or begin "avoid collision" manoeuvre when no visible collision expected - computer just know what I don't! It would better avoid enemy gunshells ;)


The predicted impact point...

So, what happens if I decide to change course? What if I predict another point of impact? What if I plan an attack - which my soldiers don't perform cause they have they own plans?

What you've just described works perfect for automatic torpeding! But in "manual mode" - which is quite suitable for DDs - it works against player plans! Because DDs often have not more than one chance to fire - and if computer begins to switch targets or not to launch torpedoes according to "predicted circumstances" - I don't even know what I'm doing here ;)


The best way to use torpedoes, therefore, is to approach the target on a parallel but opposite course.

I usually do it exactly the same. Althouth sometimes I try to attack damaged slow-moving target from back - I mean - on a parallel course of couse. I think it's also suitable position - but AI thinks opposite ;)


What I like to do is have my DDs move in line astern more or less perpendicular to the target's course, then turn simultaneously for a head-on approach. This puts some of the flotilla on both sides of the target, leaving it no place to run when it tries to dodge the torpedoes ;).

Yeah, it would be great also if DDs could be parachuted from the high - right to both sides of target ;)


You just need to work on the timing of giving the launch order. Only give it as the DDs are approaching the point you want to launch from, so that by the times the tubes swing onto the target, you're in the right place. It's not that hard to do.
But what about training the target? When I give order to target - DDs just start to PREPARE their torpedoes only! And to the time they become ready either target is gone or DD itself is already destroyed. That's what I'm talking about - set target before the launch to aim - and launch torpedoes only when the best moment achived! This is sometimes tricky with current controls...

[Bullethead]

You mean - on ths same course? To fire at the pre-last ship to hit the last? It's a bit tricky, isn't it? More chance to miss at all ;)

Whether you're on a the same or the opposite course, if the enemy is in order Ship A then Ship B and you're alongside Ship A, you should fire your torps at Ship B. However, not all your guns may bear on Ship B, but all will bear on Ship A.

This means computer knows something I don't know - about when and where that ship will sink? Great! So instead of executing exact order computer decides to do what itself think is better!

The ship calculates a PREDICTED impact point, which is based on both your ship and the target continuing on the same courses and speeds, and the torpedoes running straight. Torpedoes don't always run straight, and 1 or both ships may turn (the target almost always will at least try to dodge). Thus, you don't always hit.

It's pretty easy to figure where the predicted impact point is. Just draw an imaginary line straight ahead from the target and another out from your ship to cross the 1st line. Then mentally adjust the crossing point forward and backwards along the target's line until the line from your ship to the crossing point is about twice as long as from the target to the crossing point. This isn't exactly right, but it's close enough to work reliably.

So, what happens if I decide to change course? What if I predict another point of impact? What if I plan an attack - which my soldiers don't perform cause they have they own plans?

If you change course, it often doesn't change the predicted impact point very much, because your tubes have an arc of fire. Target course changes, however, always have a big effect on the predicted impact point.

If you follow the procedure above, visualizing the lines from the target and your ship to where they cross, you shouldn't have much problem getting into a good launch position. It's actually way easier in DG than in Jutland, because torpedo range is so short everything fits on your screen easily.

And your ship DOESN'T do something it thinks is better than what you want it to do. It's trying to carry out your orders to fire torpedoes. If you tell it to launch at a specific target it tries hard to do so, but if that's impossible, it may then try to launch at something else.

IOW, if your ship changes to a different target than the one you gave it, it's because you gave it an impossible order. And that's your fault for putting your ship in the wrong place to attack the desired target. To avoid this problem, visualize the launch parameters better.

But what about training the target? When I give order to target - DDs just start to PREPARE their torpedoes only! And to the time they become ready either target is gone or DD itself is already destroyed. That's what I'm talking about - set target before the launch to aim - and launch torpedoes only when the best moment achived! This is sometimes tricky with current controls...

Yeah, that's a suggestion I've made myself but it hasn't been a high priority because, with practice, you can still get good results without it. However, turning in a suggestion might help sway opinions.

[alexsmith]

Whether you're on a the same or the opposite course, if the enemy is in order Ship A then Ship B and you're alongside Ship A, you should fire your torps at Ship B. However, not all your guns may bear on Ship B, but all will bear on Ship A.

I will surely attempt that advice, thank you! But... I usually not attack ships in line - very rare...


The ship calculates a PREDICTED impact point, which is based on both your ship and the target continuing on the same courses and speeds, and the torpedoes running straight. Torpedoes don't always run straight, and 1 or both ships may turn (the target almost always will at least try to dodge). Thus, you don't always hit.
I understand why I miss - I just cant' understand why my DDs fire at far target instead to fire at closest - as I just told them ;)


It's pretty easy to figure where the predicted impact point is. Just draw an imaginary line straight ahead from the target and another out from your ship to cross the 1st line. Then mentally adjust the crossing point forward and backwards along the target's line until the line from your ship to the crossing point is about twice as long as from the target to the crossing point. This isn't exactly right, but it's close enough to work reliably.
I will probably need a calculator and apply a ruler at my monitor at least ;)
What you say is to complex for me ;) As I suppose there is not a great task to compute a targeting point (a point at which torpedos should be targeted):

http://biz4fun.ru/torpedo.gif

where:
d1 - distance between DD and target
d2 - distance which target should pass for the time before impact
s1 - speed of target
s2 - speed of torpedo
(if DD is not on traverse of target it's a bit different but also not too complex)

As you can see for example - if d1=300m and target speed is about 10 knots - the distance from DD to target point should be ( d2^2+d1^2 ) ^ 0.5 ~ 350m

Maybe I'm not a mathematician - but I see no difficulties to fire in that situation and torpedo to hit - althouth target won't change it's course which is not quite important in such situation... I don't understand what is so impossible here for DD to carry out my order ;)

[Bullethead]

I will surely attempt that advice, thank you! But... I usually not attack ships in line - very rare...

Lines are the best targets--if you don't hit the one you aim at, you might hit another. And even if you miss completely, you'll still screw the whole formation up. But that's in Jutland; in the RJW sending DDs after a line of ships in presumably good condition is suicide.

What you say is to complex for me ;)

It's a lot simpler than that ugly formula you posted :). I was just describing how to estimate the parameters by eye, no math required.

:
http://biz4fun.ru/torpedo.gif

Maybe I'm not a mathematician - but I see no difficulties to fire in that situation and torpedo to hit

Well, as you've drawn the picture, most DDs in both games would be unable to launch. This is because the impact point is so far forward of the DDs' beam, it's out of the arc of broadside tubes. I think only a WW1 German DD could launch in this situation, and only with 1 bow tube. The rest of its tubes, and all those of other DDs, would be unable to fire.

This is because the impact point is outside of their tubes' firing arcs. Almost all DDs' tubes have 90^ arcs on each side of the ship, centered on their beams. IOW, the impact point can be no more than 45^ ahead of or abaft their beams. Thus, to get the DD to lauch torpedoes, you should turn the DD to port, so that the impact point is within the arcs of its broadside tubes.

[alexsmith]

Lines are the best targets-But that's in Jutland; in the RJW sending DDs after a line of ships in presumably good condition is suicide.

Right. That's exactly why I almost never attack whole line ;)


Well, as you've drawn the picture, most DDs in both games would be unable to launch. This is because the impact point is outside of their tubes' firing arcs.
Ok. Was wrong. What about now? ;)

http://biz4fun.ru/torpedo1.gif

Well... Don't you think it's a little bit tricky to target DD at the imaginary point which is not quite easy to locate? Hm. But maybe this requires a little guide to novices... I think it would be great if you could include such example (without "ugly formula" of course :) in the game manual, wouldn't it?

By the way! About the manual. I suggest the manual for 1.5 is not quite up to date ;) When should we expect an updated version?

[Bullethead]

Ok. Was wrong. What about now? ;)

http://biz4fun.ru/torpedo1.gif

It's better to attack head-on instead of overtaking from astern. Not only is the geometry better, but you're less exposed to fire.

Well... Don't you think it's a little bit tricky to target DD at the imaginary point which is not quite easy to locate?

Nope, it's just similar triangles. I can visualize a triangle lying over the water and can expand it or contract it mentally at will. It's not that hard. In real life, the whole thing was a question of similar triangles. You might want to watch Tone's movies about it, found here: http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/sim/

You can also practice. Set up a scenario with the edtior with some target ships and DDs approaching from both sides. Play it on both sides and never give any orders to the targets so they don't shoot back. Use this to practice making approaches to launch positions.

[alexsmith]

But what about question concerning manual update? ;) And including a short example of what we were discussed here in there?