Wikipedia excommunicates Church of Scientology

[SUBMAN1]

It's about time.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-10252473-71.html

-S

[Torplexed]

Hmmm. I have a vision of an enraged Tom Cruise doing a frustrated jig on his laptop with steel-toed shoes. :cool:

[Skybird]

Again, scientology is currently being sued in France, beside Germany the second heavy-weight enemy of scientology in Europe. Since it is a a very profane profit-oriented finance-enterprise, selling sectarianism, psychological exploitation and dependance, for the purpose of ripping of their customers and infiltrating public education and the leadership of the economy, in France and several other European countries it is not recognised as a religion, and thus is not protected by the French state as religions are (time and again they are involved in criminal investigations against them in several countries, and in Germany they are under constant surveillance by the Verfassungsschutz/office for the preotection of the constitution).

The new French case is expected to run over several years if they are found guilty, since the company without doubt will battle through all courts until the bitter end. But if sentenced, this time scientology finally could be completely banned in France, forcing it to officially dissolve itself in France and being prohibited to operate in France again.

En avant, France! :yeah:

[CastleBravo]

What's next? Roman Catholicism, because they believe bread and wine are transmutated into the body and blood of Christ? Personally I try to give religious groups much leway until they start physically harming those who donnot believe as they do.

[Aramike]

What's next? Roman Catholicism, because they believe bread and wine are transmutated into the body and blood of Christ? Personally I try to give religious groups much leway until they start physically harming those who donnot believe as they do.They didn't banish them over their beliefs. They were banned due to their editing of pages to reflect their views rather than sticking with the facts.

[CastleBravo]

They didn't banish them over their beliefs. They were banned due to their editing of pages to reflect their views rather than sticking with the facts.

That sounds like wiki in general, does it not? Since anyone can edit wiki pages it is all suspect. Am I in error on this?

[Skybird]

Ron Hubbard founded as much a religion as did Reverend Jones. If Scientology is a religion, then the mass suicide and murder at Jonestown was a Holy Mass.

Both are/were inhuman psycho-sects. How credulous must one be to give them a status of being a "religion" just because they snap and yell aggressively. That is hilarious. And most nations seem to think so. That's why many nations do not accept them to fall under the protection for free religious practice. That the US accepts them, does not speak for the US, but against them.

Scientology is a brainwashing psycho-sect that runs a capitalistic money-oriented business, and this often in violation of basic human rights and national laws. It tries to maximise financial exploitation, keep members in increasing psychic dependance, and is trying to turn people into slaves that only work to spend even more of their earned money for scientology. You know what a snowball-mail system is. Itz is not much different with scientzology, just that the snowballing effect is in the individuals' mind, represented by growing psychic dependency and financial sacrifice and ripping-off normal members up to total personal bancruptcy, until all their social life, family and job world has collapsed and they are all scientiology's property. That they treat celebrities nicley, does not mean anything, and is just public relations to attract more new people. It is just shine and lie.

These people are extremely dangerous, why can't some people just don't see that and want to protect and support them. They are everything that you do not want your children falling victim to.

Ooops - I just have had a deja vu. Could it be that we have had threads on this matter before...? :hmmm:

Why scientology claims to be a religion: for making more money and to benefit from tax reliefs:
http://members.chello.nl/mgormez/books/a_piece_of_blue_sky/bs3-5.htm

Scientology Lies:
http://members.chello.nl/mgormez/books/a_piece_of_blue_sky/bs3-5.htm

"You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion." - A multiple-witnessed quote by Ron Hubbard, former mediocre SF-author and later founder of scientology.

[Letum]

That sounds like wiki in general, does it not? Since anyone can edit wiki pages it is all suspect. Am I in error on this?

Yes and no.
It may be open to be edited by any individual, but it is moderated by the community.

It is undoubtedly more accurate than any paper encyclopedia, but less accurate than some
more primary info sources.

[Aramike]

That sounds like wiki in general, does it not? Since anyone can edit wiki pages it is all suspect. Am I in error on this?There's a difference between individuals making page edits and an entire organization doing so with the singular goal of promoting their faux-religion.

Individual scientologists will still be able to edit pages like anyone else - the organization, however, won't be able to.

[CastleBravo]

There's a difference between individuals making page edits and an entire organization doing so with the singular goal of promoting their faux-religion.

Individual scientologists will still be able to edit pages like anyone else - the organization, however, won't be able to.

I have yet to see an organisation which wasn't made up of individuals. I don't mean to be snide but I think this is wrong minded. I think, although I'm not sure, the decision is based on government pressue. Specifically German and French governments which cannot derive money from Scientology, like it can from Catholicism and Protestantism.

I'm very cynical when it comes to the gov't v. religion angle.

[Aramike]

I have yet to see an organisation which wasn't made up of individuals. I don't mean to be snide but I think this is wrong minded. I think, although I'm not sure, the decision is based on government pressue. Specifically German and French governments which cannot derive money from Scientology, like it can from Catholicism and Protestantism.

I'm very cynical when it comes to the gov't v. religion angle.Of course organizations are made up of individuals. However, there is a difference between individuals doing things of their own volition and an organization driving an ORGANIZED effort.

That's what was banned.

You're muddling the issue needlessly, as the distinction is obvious. Here's another example: say Catholics were editing pages. This is fine. Now say the Pope ordered the use of Vatican computers, labor, and other assets to edit the pages. That would not be fine.

[SteamWake]

LOL I thought this was a joke thread...

Wiki... Scientology... The whole thing just makes me laugh :haha:

[CastleBravo]

Of course organizations are made up of individuals. However, there is a difference between individuals doing things of their own volition and an organization driving an ORGANIZED effort.

That's what was banned.

You're muddling the issue needlessly, as the distinction is obvious. Here's another example: say Catholics were editing pages. This is fine. Now say the Pope ordered the use of Vatican computers, labor, and other assets to edit the pages. That would not be fine.

Does that distinction apply to other organizations also? That would be a litmus test....no?

[Skybird]

I have yet to see an organisation which wasn't made up of individuals. I don't mean to be snide but I think this is wrong minded. I think, although I'm not sure, the decision is based on government pressue. Specifically German and French governments which cannot derive money from Scientology, like it can from Catholicism and Protestantism.

I'm very cynical when it comes to the gov't v. religion angle.

What almost venomous 180° turn-around of things is this? Governments making money from churches? Governments pump public taxes into churches! Additional to the mandatory church tax that the church raises in Germany. When the church begins a new construction project, let's say a hospital that becomes called a "Christian hospital" therefore, run by the church, 80-90% of the money for constructing it is public tax money given by the state, and the rest is payed by the church. However, although the public has payed it, it becomes property of the church afterwards. So, I cannot escape to fiancially fund the church that I dislike so much and where I left from many years ago, and need to pay money for them even when I am not a christian, and do not pay the german church tax. I pay the church via my regular taxes.

It is true that France and Germany are Scientology's main opponents in europe (scientology labels Germany as it'S most important "battlefield" - their word - since it hopes that if opposition falls in Germany, it will fall throughout Europe. However, we manage to keep it relatively contained, and a ban of scientolgy is being prepared since 2007 for the same reason we ban criminal organisations and activities that are a threat to the constiotutional order, what scientology is). However, opposition to them is not just governments, but also people, and it is spread across europe. Scientology is confronted with court cases and criminal investigation all over europe, since long time. We do not have a hidden Nazi-agenda to supress religion. Scientology does not compare to the Jews in the third Reich., in no, in absolutely no ways. Scientology simply is no religion, and is not a church just because it claims to be so. It is a profit-oriented and often criminally acting economic enterprise and a dangerous psycho-sect in violation of several basic human rights.

Get yourself informed on scientology a bit before accusing other nations of supressing a precious religious religion. There is so very very much material available if only you use Google on it. And don't you have advise centres on sects in the US?

[d@rk51d3]

LOL I thought this was a joke thread...

Wiki... Scientology... The whole thing just makes me laugh :haha:


Heck, I laughed at Wiki............... never got as far as the Scientology part. :DL

[CastleBravo]

Perhaps I was wrong. Does not the Gov't tax members of the Catholic church?

[Aramike]

Does that distinction apply to other organizations also? That would be a litmus test....no?I don't follow your question.

Also, it must be noted that Wikipedia is clearly not a government - it has the right to chose who contributes to its site.

Still, I don't get your point. Very simply put, Wiki has decided to ban an organized effort from a "religion" to taint its pages. Wiki has NOT banned individuals - only the organization's efforts. What is wrong with that?

[CastleBravo]

I don't follow your question.

Also, it must be noted that Wikipedia is clearly not a government - it has the right to chose who contributes to its site.

Still, I don't get your point. Very simply put, Wiki has decided to ban an organized effort from a "religion" to taint its pages. Wiki has NOT banned individuals - only the organization's efforts. What is wrong with that?

I guess because organisations are comprised of individuals. If Scientology is so evil and out to corrupt the Germans and French don't you think they can mobilize individuals on wiki?

Perhaps its something else advancing wiki's agenda?

[Aramike]

I guess because organisations are comprised of individuals. If Scientology is so evil and out to corrupt the Germans and French don't you think they can mobilize individuals on wiki?

Perhaps its something else advancing wiki's agenda?No kidding all organizations are compromised of individuals. However, all organizations ultimately leave a select few acting in interest of the collective of individuals. If Wiki (a private organization itself) decides that a certain other organization is official acting in a way which compromises the former's goals, it has every right to ban them from utilizing the service.

Sure, the French and the Germans COULD organize against Scientology's Wiki-propaganda, but why would Wiki want to allow their encyclopedia become little more than a battleground for warring interests? Also, putting the perrogative on the "defenders" to protect a private institution's intellectual interests is inherently flawed as it is akin to allowing any "Pink Unicorn" theorist organization to have the same credentials as, say, Isaac Newton and his laws of physics.

Also, I must admit that I find it interesting and disturbing that you'd be so fast to defend the "rights" of an organization such as Scientololgy while completely bypassing the rights of an organization such as Wiki ...

In all honesty, I do wonder if you're a Scientologist because you've convieniently side-stepped the idea that Wiki is an organization with rights as well, making it seem as though there's self-interest involved...

[Skybird]

Perhaps I was wrong. Does not the Gov't tax members of the Catholic church?
They do the formalities and collect it, yes, but hand it over to the church, in parts directly, in parts in indirect procedures, which is true for the Protestant church as well. The church tax is not kept by the state. As I understand it, it is not in all nations like in Germany. Also, church membership is marked on German tax cards.

Of course, churches should live by voluntary donations of their local members exclusively. The German system of mandatory taxes derives from the medieval habit of having to give a tenth of your harvest and income to the church, no matter what.

[Rilder]

So how long till some Scientology Messiah gets crucified, then they start killing people who don't believe in their religion?

Then once half the world believes in their religion, how long till they start sending crusades to kill the other half?

Calling it now, 400ish years and you Christians will be a minor religion along with us Pagan lads.

....

...

:rotfl:

[Skybird]

Religions grow over history, on the basis of some events being told from generation to generation, history becomes hear-say, hear-say becomes legend. Religions do not get just decided to be that, and do not get switched on from one week to the other.

In scientology, which originally was "switched on" only for reasons of profit raising and tax-evasion in the US, you have to pay money for your salvation and freedom. to get "knowledge" in form of psycho-courses and books to continue your "cleaning", you have to pay more and more money for buying these things. when you reached the next level, you will need to pay even more money to get taught for the following level of cleaning yourself and making it to the next grade. It is a snowball system that gets implemented to work and run inside your own mind. After some time you will find that courses and books will cost you thousands and tens of thousands of dollars (not to mention that these books are filled with pseudo-psychologic bull). All your life will focus on making that money to pa it to them,. so that you make it to the next holy grade of their hilarious cleaning hierarchy, and gain access to that secret superior knowledge of theirs (a knwledge imagined and put together by a really less than mediocre SF-author, mind you).

what kind of "religion" should this be where wealth equals "holiness" and being clean? What kind of respectability is there in a business that focusses on money exclusively, ruins individual existences and rips families apart, turning people into craving addicts for making it to the next degree, giving up all their existence, social secuity, income, property and hand it all over to them? What humanity is to be found in an ideology that brutally exploits the initial curiosity and vulnerability of the naive mind? what is to be tolerated in a company-business that sells the implicit idea that the ultimate salvation of your soul is only accessible for those being extremely rich, and those who are not - then are doomed? Is money the gauge that decides whether or not your soul is to reach freedom and salvation? Deserves this ideology your respect and tolerance, at the price of your society being turned into a slave-pool for the profit-raising by a company?

You should think a bit better of your tolerance, you shold consider it to be a bit more valuable and precious, and you should be a bit more choosy in what you tolerate.

When the level of your personal holiness is decided by how much millions you own, what does this tell you about this ideology? When you buy your way towards heavenly cleanness and purification in dependance of how much money you give them? and when the knoweldge of freedom and purification is only for the rich, where as the not as rich get ripped off without mercy and get lead into mental and psychological total dependence until psychologic breakdown, suicide attempts, depression, despair? When critics get sued and sued and sued at courts over years, get intimidated and threatened, get mobbed in the public, and lies being told about them in order to destroy their public reputation and respectability and destroy their existential basis in their jobs?

It is ultra-capitalistic money-making, hidden in the cloathings of a claimed "religion" to make it unavailable for any criticism, and trying to maximise financial profits by infinite exploitation of human ressources beyond breaking points, without limits, and trying to impose this way of practicing on key social institutions, and anchoring it in the economy as well. Psycho-sects like this create only this: misery, slavery, abuse of the many for the wellbeing of the very few running the whole show. It is sectarianism of the worst kind.

It deserves your utmost disgust - not your tolerance, not your defence, not your respect, not your laissez-faire. Criminals like this are not to be tolerated. they are to be fought against, they are to be driven back, forced out, minimised in their influence and denied in their opportunity to unfold.

In other words: kick them until they are gone. This hilariously so-called "church" is anything but a religion, it is just a ruthlessly acting company, and slavery and psychological and financial exploitation are its core business. They are criminals, have repeatedly found to violate basic human rights and the dignity of humans as well as economy laws and tax laws, they have been found guilty of keeping people as prisoners and kidnapping people and children, they are highly aggressive, malicious, lying, brutal and unscrupellous, in short: they are extremely dangerous. They are not to be protected by the constitution - they aim at destroying basic values of the constitution - both the American and German ones.

One must undergo a brain lobotomy to believe their claim to be a religion, and to tolerate and protect their activities. That is just madness.

[Frame57]

What'w wrong with scientology?:woot:Didn't we get that fantastic movie "Battlefield Earth" Eh, never mind...:O:

[Rilder]

In other words: kick them until they are gone.

The christians will back me on saying: destroying a religion is impossible, the moment it gets recorded into history, there will always be somebody believing in it.

It's especially impossible to do in this day and age where you are not allowed to force your beliefs on somebody.

[Torplexed]

The christians will back me on saying: destroying a religion is impossible, the moment it gets recorded into history, there will always be somebody believing in it.

I dunno. Is there anyone still worshiping Ra, Zeus or Thor anymore? Just curious.

[Rilder]

I dunno. Is there anyone still worshiping Ra, Zeus or Thor anymore? Just curious.


Your looking at one. (Well the posts of one)

Not really a believer in The Egyptian Pantheon though, to much emphasis on death.

[Skybird]

The christians will back me on saying: destroying a religion is impossible, the moment it gets recorded into history, there will always be somebody believing in it.


It is no religion. It is a company doing a criminal business to the utmost cost of its victims. It can be banned. Violating that prohibition can bring their leaders into court, like the Mafia's godfathers can be caught and locked.

This is no religion at all. It just is a company with a long criminal record.

What some nuthead is believing in the backyard of their homes is not so important. Thoughts are freer, so are fantasies. To crack down on the company's business structure, to interrupt it's business routines, and to identify and keep away scientologists from sensible jobs in the economy, the educational field and politics - this is what counts.

Scientology is no case for philosophers and theologists. It is a case for the police.

BTW, Ron Hubbard himself has written and said that he does not consider his creation to be a religion or a psycho-therapy. He also wrote that since religions often do get understood to be social reform organisations, scientology must try to look like a social reform organsiation and must cloak itself as a religion, and while the public is obedient to ministers, scientology therefore must show them what ministers are.

Cloaking is the name of the game. And some of you people are even falling for it.

[SUBMAN1]

Does banning this result in the first step towards banning Christianity? It might be. Things always start in a subtle way.

Christianity is under attack in every country these days. This is in a time where the violent acts of terrorists for Islam are heralded as good deeds.

Someone wake me up, but when did this nightmare start? Obviously it is the direct result of the weakening of Western civ and the ultimate turn away from god. But the end time has to come someday. Welcome to that end.

Even if I were an atheist, I would be looking upon these times with great alarm. Islam is coming for you. If Christianity were the Ying and Islam the Yang, seems you have created a vacuum for them to take over even you. No longer are things balanced. You will try and ban them to, but you will fail. You are already overrun.

-S

[bookworm_020]

BTW, Ron Hubbard himself has written and said that he does not consider his creation to be a religion or a psycho-therapy. He also wrote that since religions often do get understood to be social reform organisations, scientology must try to look like a social reform organsiation and must cloak itself as a religion, and while the public is obedient to ministers, scientology therefore must show them what ministers are.

HE also stated at a science fiction writers gathering just before he started scientology, that if you really want to make money, you need to create your own religion.

Where scientology really falls down is the fact that it descriminates against people it doesn't want. Where have you seen scientologist's helping the poor or underprivileged?, in particular when there isn't a camera around. The way it charges so much for it's "cures" and "improvements" and says that they are required if you want to belong is a bussiness, not a religion.

I'm suprised they don't try telelmarketing! They would reach plenty of gullible people willing to spend money on useless objects!:hmmm:

[Rilder]

Does banning this result in the first step towards banning Christianity? It might be. Things always start in a subtle way.

Christianity is under attack in every country these days. This is in a time where the violent acts of terrorists for Islam are heralded as good deeds.

Someone wake me up, but when did this nightmare start? Obviously it is the direct result of the weakening of Western civ and the ultimate turn away from god. But the end time has to come someday. Welcome to that end.

Even if I were an atheist, I would be looking upon these times with great alarm. Islam is coming for you. If Christianity were the Ying and Islam the Yang, seems you have created a vacuum for them to take over even you. No longer are things balanced. You will try and ban them to, but you will fail. You are already overrun.

-S

Heh, I'd be more worried about christians coming for me. :rotfl:

[owner20071963]

This corporation had power,
if You believe,
Like Preachers,Priests,
all organisations,
Roaring down a Microphone?
On TV,
Listen long enough?
You will be hypnotised by this trash,
Yes trash,Rubbish,Pure utter Rubbish,
Lets not forget from past History,
Religion is the Beginning and End of all Wars,
Protect your children from this,
Pure utter Rubbish printed or not.
Religion no matter what type,
was Man made,
Ripleys
Believe It Or Not :D

[Aramike]

Does banning this result in the first step towards banning Christianity? It might be. Things always start in a subtle way.

Christianity is under attack in every country these days. This is in a time where the violent acts of terrorists for Islam are heralded as good deeds.

Someone wake me up, but when did this nightmare start? Obviously it is the direct result of the weakening of Western civ and the ultimate turn away from god. But the end time has to come someday. Welcome to that end.

Even if I were an atheist, I would be looking upon these times with great alarm. Islam is coming for you. If Christianity were the Ying and Islam the Yang, seems you have created a vacuum for them to take over even you. No longer are things balanced. You will try and ban them to, but you will fail. You are already overrun.

-SWait - are you suggesting that Wikipedia banning an organization from hijacking their articles to slant them favorably, somehow constitutes a weakening of Western civilization? Let's say that the Vatican was doing the same thing Scientology was - I'd support a ban on that as well.

Wikipedia has absolutely NO reason to not protect its interests the best it can, specifically the veracity of the articles within.

Wikipedia cannot "ban" Scientology any more than it can ban Christianity. But, it has EVERY RIGHT to ban organized efforts by these institutions to taint its content.

What is really the weakening of Western Civilization is this idea that private organizations are not supposed to defend their interests.

[Aramike]

This corporation had power,
if You believe,
Like Preachers,Priests,
all organisations,
Roaring down a Microphone?
On TV,
Listen long enough?
You will be hypnotised by this trash,
Yes trash,Rubbish,Pure utter Rubbish,
Lets not forget from past History,
Religion is the Beginning and End of all Wars,
Protect your children from this,
Pure utter Rubbish printed or not.
Religion no matter what type,
was Man made,
Ripleys
Believe It Or Not :DThat is the some of the most closed-minded, short-sighted, hate-filled rubbish I've ever read on here.

It is absolutely foolish to believe that without religion there would be no war. Many, if not most wars are secular in nature (the gain of land and resources). How one can honestly believe that man's nature is guided only by religion is beyond any reasonable mind.

Religion is a man-made construct, generally for the purpose of the worship of a supreme deity. Just like any other man-made construct, it will contain a degree of fallibility. But only the most simple-minded among us will find a way to blame all of the world's ills on a single concept.

Also, your sense of history is flawed. Take the most terrible of modern-day wars, World War II. How did religion cause this? Actually, wasn't religion one of its chief victims?

Religion is surely responsible for some evils, but it is also responsible for many more good acts. Hatred exists independently of religion, and generally only causes evil.

By the way, I'm not in any way religious, but I don't dislike religion. I do despise hatred, however. Your post was filled with it.

[Skybird]

I'm surprised they don't try telemarketing! They would reach plenty of gullible people willing to spend money on useless objects!:hmmm:

But they already do! It is their core business to sell crap literature and courses to people.

Let's assume, theoretically, for one moment, they were indeed a religion, not a company having founded a cult to make profit of it. There is one characteristic that sets them apart from ALL major religions there are:

Religious missionaries, religious teachings try to convince you, WHY it is to your benefit if you submit to them. They tell you what their message and belief is, and their deity and idols, and how the content of their message is helping you, they tell you all this for free so that you shall believe it and join them.

Scientology hides it from you.

they say: Hi, my name is Linda, and you look so stressed on this day, if you have a little time here is a little test that may help you to realize how stressed you actually are. Well, those numbers don't look good, well, here is a little book for 9,80 that you can read to find out how to lower that stress level. We also offer courses where you can learn in practice to deal with your stress, they are not expensive for beginner's levels, really.

And you go home and read it and take that course, and follow some advise, and well, eventually you find out that having those ideas on your mind influences the way you experience your job, family, social life, whatever. and you say: hey, this is nice stuff, I want to know more, why am I so stressed. And you go and ask them.

And they tell you, well, actually you are not stressed, but you are not purified from what is oppressing you. Here is a small collection of books for 280 dollars, you may find some answers in them. We also recommend you advance to level two of our relaxation courses for just 490 dollars per weekend. For better effect you take all parts of them, and if you buy them completely, you pay 6 courses and get the 7th for free.

And you go home and read and you take some courses and you pay some 3000 dollars, after all it's just money. and you are wondering and ask them: why is it that I am so loaded with things I need to purify from? And they tell you: well, at this level of your spiritual journey we cannot tell you, you must first advance to the next level, here are some books for just 790 dollars, and these courses for advanced practitioners that base on the beginner's lessons you already took, just 3000 dollar. Now that you started, you cannot quit, right! This is important for your spiritual health!

and you do as you have been told, and spend all the money. And your wife is asking where all your money has gone, and you go to the church and ask them what you should tell your family. And they tell you that you should bring her with you. Asking her, she rejects your offer, and again you ask your Scientology mentor for advise and he tells you that you must separate from your wife, but should bring your children instead, and that you have to disconnect from your former friends and circle of working buddies, for they are hindering you on your spiritual journey: here is a nice book and a course to help you over it. 10.000 dollars, please.

And that way, you make your way up the spiritual ladder, and the more money you pay, the more fulfilled and purified your spirituality becomes. One day you ask them where all this crap that was hindering you, has been coming from, and they say: pssst, don't tell everybody, but you are close to the next level where it will be revealed to you, just this more books and courses, 29000 dollars, and you will raise to not only the next level, but the next class of completely different levels, where you will learn about the superior power of mind and.... sht, not yet, comrade, first get these books and take these courses.

And you do as you've been told, and see your children being brainwashed and becoming disconnected from their former life and friends as well, and you see the cult completely assimilating them and turning them into beasty missionaries for Scientology, the coming leader's elite to lead the corporation.

when you have read the books and took the courses, they demand an entrance fee of some thousand dollars, then tell you that now you have become a tethan of first degree, and they lend you in their center a holy book of revelations that tells you that there was a great intergalactic war and a ancient Darth Vader plans to blow your body and mind up by throwing you into a volcano and that he already has imposed onto you the bad souls of his enemies millions of years ago, that's where your stress is coming from, and the more purification you get and free yourself from that science fiction heritage, the more a loose cannon your mind will become. You will be able to fly by willpower, you will learn how to kill people with your thought alone, and generally you will make superman look like an idiot. But, pssst, don't tell everyone! And you have to give back the book and leave the building and think what great things are laying ahead of you

Of course, reaching the next tethan level costs you more money for books, training and courses. the hierarchy is such that in theory there are enough tethan levels to consume all money there is in the world during your journey up the ladder. If you become so rich to pay all the world's money, you become tethan level 15, i think, which is the best there is, and seen that way that you managed to once own all the world's money - yes, you have been the master of the world. It's just that you are expected to hand your masterhsip over to them, in order to get those tethan super-mega-power-gimmicks, killer thoughts, cosmic insight and transgalactevolutional tam-tam-wonder-miracle-super-dooper-wonder-show with fireworks and a seat in the first row. Tom Cruise is said to be level 6 or 7, I think. Maybe that's because he always feels so small.

One day you wake up and look at your life which has become a mess, and that you have lost your family and wife and sold your kids, and that you are poor and have debts and your life pretty much in ruins. You break down in depression, but have no money to seek help outside your former paradise of Scientology. You want to take your kids and leave, but they tell you you can't, and hide your kids from you and shield them against you. You flee, and they threaten to kill you and that you bare not allowed to leave, and that you should give back all the books with all the secrets they revealed to you. They launch a huge campaign against you in the media, trying to shatter what is left of your respectability and reputation. they break into your apartment in search of those books, and steal them. when you tell the public what crap they are teaching people, they say: what? we? No, we don't teach that, we do not tell that to people, where is the evidence? He said he had books, where are they? One night you manage to find your children, and take them away. In the following weeks and months you find yourself being sued and sued over claims of child abuse, illegal entrance of their property, false testimony about them, character assassination. Every word you tell about Scientology they try to sue you for. In the night you see strange people lurking around yours apartment. You fear for the safety of your children, which additionally have massively alienated from you, and you are not sure if maybe you have brought the enemy into your hidden shelter by taking them in. On the other hand you read in a newspaper that in Germany, children of leading key personnel of Scientology in Berlin, did not bear the psycho terror anymore and fled from their parents, asking the state for asylum and to protect them against their parents (true event!).

And so on, Scientology never gives up, they are known for haunting their victims (="traitors") for years and years, and try to delete the material evidence for their activity by trying to get back the materials they once sold.

A religion like any other?

Wake up, people. Selling fantasies and declare what is just believed as a proven knowledge, is the business of every religion, yes, so are ridiculous claims of hellfire and salvation. But the way Scientology behaves and hunts for it's monetary profit interests is what makes it unique, and sets it apart. As I said before, they install a snowballing system in your mind to rip you off your money. And for that it is necessary not to tell you what it is about, but to hide it from you, and sell it in many little portions instead, for increasing prices.

The Christian church at least is clever enough to heavily susidize the prices for bibles in your bookshop. :lol: and on some occasions you can even get it for free. Now what if I sell you the first book of Moses for 29 dollars, telling you the real stuff starts not before book 2 (78 dollars), and after you have read it you ask for the sequel of the unfinished story and I sell you book 3 for 198 dollar, and when you want to know it all, now that you already have gone all the way, I tell you that there is a secret 4th book, it is not for everybody, that's why it is 498 dollar? Congratulations, you finished completing your first degree, now, there is plenty more... and after you are in debts and disconnected from your former life I tell you: congratulations, you now own the knowledge of all the old testament! I have a surprise for you, you know what, buddy? Psssst, don't tell everybody, but there is a new testament as well! :rotfl:

And once you have become a Megachristian of 20th degree, there comes the revelations. The Qumram scriptures. The fifth Gospel by john. Dune part 1-6. The screenplay of teletubbies. You want to become the real lord of the rings? Well, there are three books...

Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, Spain, and some other European nations refuse to accept their claim to be a religion. I know that American laws are different here, but Europeans must not obey American laws. And maybe in this case it simply is a stupid law anyway if it makes it possible to ennoble a criminal organization like Scientology the way it does, giving them tax reliefs and constitutional protection.

Check Google to learn the long criminal records of Scientology in various nations. It includes

-major fraud,
-tax evasion,
-wrongful deprivation of personal liberty,
-threat of physical violence and murder,
-child abuse,
-claims over kidnapping,
-illegal medical practicing,
-abuse of one's position in public and social offices,
-lying in job interviews,
-perjury,
-mistreatment,
-mobbing
-and various variations of accusations focusing on psychic cruelty.

Add to this the plethora of court cases Scientology has ripple-fired against "traitors", researchers, opponents and critics.

[clive bradbury]

Does banning this result in the first step towards banning Christianity? It might be. Things always start in a subtle way.

Christianity is under attack in every country these days. This is in a time where the violent acts of terrorists for Islam are heralded as good deeds.

Someone wake me up, but when did this nightmare start? Obviously it is the direct result of the weakening of Western civ and the ultimate turn away from god. But the end time has to come someday. Welcome to that end.

Even if I were an atheist, I would be looking upon these times with great alarm. Islam is coming for you. If Christianity were the Ying and Islam the Yang, seems you have created a vacuum for them to take over even you. No longer are things balanced. You will try and ban them to, but you will fail. You are already overrun.

-S

Why I find this post interesting, subman, is that it displays rather typical fears of a narrow 'western' viewpoint. This is not a criticism of you, but it does show how the USA has consistently underestimated the effects of its foreign policy upon other nations. Such is (was?) your confidence in the 'exportability' of your system and doctrines the USA was genuinely amazed when you found that not everyone felt that way. Ironically the fears you express are PRECISELY how others feel in different parts of the world. To demonstrate this, simply swap the words 'Islam' and 'Christianity' in the above post to see how someone in Afghanistan or Beirut might see the current world order.

[Stealth Hunter]

I dunno. Is there anyone still worshiping Ra, Zeus or Thor anymore? Just curious.

Believe it or not, there are still people who worship these gods. Actually, Greece has a minority group of about 5,000 people who still worship Zeus and the other gods/goddesses.

I know there are also some who worship Norse deities in Norway and Denmark as well, but I don't know about Ra. I assume there are still some for them, however.

Personally, I'm more inclined to like the polytheistic religions over the monotheistic ones (Mithra is an exception, however; he basically preached what Jesus preached 600 years before Jesus existed according to the Bible).

[nikimcbee]

Hey, look at the bright side, it makes for a great episode of Oprah. Ol' Tom will be doing more than jumping on the couch.:har:

[Rilder]

Believe it or not, there are still people who worship these gods. Actually, Greece has a minority group of about 5,000 people who still worship Zeus and the other gods/goddesses.

I know there are also some who worship Norse deities in Norway and Denmark as well, but I don't know about Ra. I assume there are still some for them, however.

Personally, I'm more inclined to like the polytheistic religions over the monotheistic ones (Mithra is an exception, however; he basically preached what Jesus preached 600 years before Jesus existed according to the Bible).

I do think were making a comeback, theirs even Hellenic Polytheistic groups about in the States here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_Neopaganism

[Stealth Hunter]

http://www.monkeyreview.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/6895.jpg

:har::haha::rotfl:

Well, any questions?

[darius359au]

:har::har::har:

[Skybird]

... :D ...