Calculating AOB with OLC Gold

[BenG]

Preface: I was previously using GWX 2 and an "earlier" version of OLC GUI. (I can't remeber which version but the graduations horizontal graduations went 0 - 5 - 10 - 15 - 20).
I've now done a Fresh Install of SH3, GWX 3 Gold, Sh3 Commander & OLC GUI Gold.

The Problem: Now the graduations have gone to 0-10-20-30-40 I can't seem to calcute AOB.
In the following example:http://i211.photobcket.com/albums/bb126/Rehnn83/AOB.jpg
http://i211.photobcket.com/albums/bb126/Rehnn83/AOB.jpghttp://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb126/Rehnn83/AOB.jpg
•I've measured the range (using both the OLC scope wheel thing and with Map Contacts enabled). I make it 1,500 metres.
•I've aligned 1,500 (15) on the outer-part of the middle ring with the ships length (140.5m) on the Outer Ring.
•In the above example the ship is at approximately 26 horizontal marks.
•Now (this is the problem) 26 on the inner-part of the middle ring is well past 90 (°) on the Inner Ring??????


My Question(s)
1 - Am I doing anything wrong?
2 - Is there anything else I need to do to calculate the AOB (e.g. Halve anything or double anything).

[BulSoldier]

There was an updated part of the tutorial.I guess OLC himself would come by soon and will tell you what you are doing wrong.

I also use OLC GOld though i measure the AOB on eye with good results.

[makman94]

you didn't do anything wrong Beng.the problem is that mast's values sucks and this have as result your range measurments to be tottaly incorrect.
open data\Sea\NKLS_ and there open the cfg file.set at mast=21.2 and save the file.your hot spot of the ship is the top of the funnel .here:
http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh372/makman94/NKLs__sil.jpg

play again with this ship and see the results

bye

[onelifecrisis]

BenG,
You may want to read this page (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1112) and then download the video tutorials. Note that the text on the linked page explains the "new" UZO markings (which aren't covered in any of the videos).
Regards,
OLC

[Sea Hawk]

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb126/Rehnn83/AOB.jpg


What modification is this screen shot from?
What are the 3 coloured scails inside the chronometer for?

[Pisces]

What modification is this screen shot from?
What are the 3 coloured scails inside the chronometer for?Well, you could have figured that out by reading the thread title, and the rest of the messages in it. (atleast a bit)

Sorry, I'm grumpy as my PC died on me today. :(

Those things around the periscope view are sliderulers to mimic/simulate the real-life german (attack) periscope optics that could determine both range and AOB in almost one go. Onelifecrisis made that mod you see here (it appeared in various editions, but his latest is OLC Gold Mk2b (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147667)). They are also in the U-jagd tools by Joegrundman, and some derivative mods by others.

Those colored scales around the chronometer are scales to determine speed of a target, as they pass the line of your periscope. The full procedure is a bit more involved than just looking at the target though. (you need to eliminate the effect of your own speed) The colored circles represent a certain length of the target. After the needle has moved X seconds it points to the appropriate speed for the length of that color (100m, 150m or 200m). If the actual ship has a different length you need to chose the color that best fits, or multiply/divide appropriately. But I found a way to (ab)use that range/AOB finder wheel in calculating the speed for any length of ship. See that crooked mark next to the 60 degrees in the inner (AOB) scale?

Watch those videos in the link OLC gave above to see how they all work.


BTW, Does that mean we can start to corrupt you into the wonderfull world of manual targeting? :arrgh!:

[tmdgm]

ben,

did any of this help? I have had the same problems multiple times. some ships are ok, others aren't, but always the exact same, AOB >90. I posted the same question in the mods section, never figured it out.

[onelifecrisis]

makman94 explained the problem. Its old news. Some modded ships have the wrong mast and length values. Would be nice if someone could be bothered to correct them all!

[tmdgm]

is there a list of ships with wrong mast values?

[Sea Hawk]

I downloaded "OLC's Video Tutorials"
Then exported then to a file in "my documents" using Winzip
"Video Tutorial Supplement for OLC 'Gold'.avi" played perfectly on windows media player.
"Original OLC GUI Video Tutroial.avi" only played the sound.

I therefore attempted to delete them inorder to redownload them.
Each time I try to delete them I get the message:-

Cannot delete OLC's Video Tutorials.rar: it is being used by another person or program. Close any programs that might be using the file and try later.

If when I get this error message I press ctrl-alt-delete then the only programs listed as running is windows explorer. I do not know how to stop the program that is stopping me from deleting these files.

I have since been able to delete "Original OLC GUI Video Tutroial.avi"
but I cannot delete "Video Tutorial Supplement for OLC 'Gold'.avi"

Now when I double click on "Video Tutorial Supplement for OLC 'Gold'.avi" it opens windows media player and playes the video but also brings up a second error message:-
Windows Explorer has encountered a problem and needs to close......Send error report.
It then either closes windows explorer, or closes it and my computer showes only my desk top pictire without the program short-cuts and without the start bar at the bottom.

Please help me.
How can I get rid of these downloads.


I also tried removing from my computer my instalation of winzip, and a few other downloaded programs that I do not use, but I could still not delete these video tutorials.

[Contact]

How about you do a reboot of your PC and then delete ?

[Sea Hawk]

How about you do a reboot of your PC and then delete ?

Ive tried "switching it off and on again" multiple times, computer off for over 12 hrs in between with no effect on my ability to delete ths file.:cry:

[Pisces]

Ive tried "switching it off and on again" multiple times, computer off for over 12 hrs in between with no effect on my ability to delete ths file.:cry:Was that with the power actually completely down (shutdown windows then unplug the cord, or the switch at the back of the machine's power unit... if there is one), or could it be you have just pressed a "Standby" button (that keeps everything in ram)?

As for Ctrl-Alt-Del/Taskmanager: there is a second tab showing a list of all the processes. (I hope vista looks the same, since I haven't seen/used that ... yet) Since you played a video, it is most likely Windows MediaPlayer kept a hold on that avi file. 'Killing' the Mediaplayer process in the second tab (look for the exe of the mediaplay, something similar to WMplayer.exe) should release the avi file aswel. Becareful!!! not to kill other processes on your system you do not know about. Or your running system might not work correctly anymore. But a full reboot solves that without a problem.

[Sea Hawk]

Thanks Pisces

The computer was turned fully off, no power at all.

I will try your sugestion when I get home tonight.

[makman94]

I posted the same question in the mods section, never figured it out.

did you try what i told you there Tmdgm or not ?

ps: oh,there is not such a list you are asking for

[Sea Hawk]

Sorted.
Dont know how I did it.
Closed as many applications as pos. that were running in the background.
The next time I lookrd the files I was trying to delete had gone.

[jmr]

you didn't do anything wrong Beng.the problem is that mast's values sucks and this have as result your range measurments to be tottaly incorrect.
open data\Sea\NKLS_ and there open the cfg file.set at mast=21.2 and save the file.your hot spot of the ship is the top of the funnel .here:


Markman, where did you get 21.2? Do you have a list of correct mast height values?

[makman94]

Markman, where did you get 21.2? Do you have a list of correct mast height values?

hello Jmr,

i calculate it. no, i don't have such a list. i had only fixed 7-8 ships lengths and masts(which are the ships i am using in my missions).in fact , ALL OF THEM need corrections but this is impossible to be done by one person becuase the procedure for fixing one ship is a real pain !
note that i am using ''GWX_ships_Buoyance&draught_mod'' which is 'puting' the ships a little deeper in the water so the 21.2 is correct only if you are using this mod(if you not ,then it is a little bigger-about 0,5-1.2m-but i never tested it without the ''GWX_ships_Buoyance&draught_mod'' )

bye

[tmdgm]

hello Jmr,

i calculate it. no, i don't have such a list. i had only fixed 7-8 ships lengths and masts(which are the ships i am using in my missions).in fact , ALL OF THEM need corrections but this is impossible to be done by one person becuase the procedure for fixing one ship is a real pain !
note that i am using ''GWX_ships_Buoyance&draught_mod'' which is 'puting' the ships a little deeper in the water so the 21.2 is correct only if you are using this mod(if you not ,then it is a little bigger-about 0,5-1.2m-but i never tested it without the ''GWX_ships_Buoyance&draught_mod'' )

bye

I guess this was going to be my question. How did you know that ship is 21.2? How did you calculate it? How would you know what the other ships are? You can go in and change that file, but how do you know what to change it to?

Also, how did they get screwed up from the stock version? IF all the ships are screwed up, how does anyone calculate AOB? Usually I just take a rough guess if I get a ship that is off.

[onelifecrisis]

I think all the stock ships are accurate. But GWX changes nearly all the ships; there's hardly a "stock" ship left in it. Still, most of the ships in GWX3 have accurate mast and length values (assuming you've not added extra mods to your GWX installation) so this problem only happens with a few ships.

If you use mods which add new ships or change existing ships then you run the risk of those mods messing up your firing solutions.

[makman94]

I guess this was going to be my question. How did you know that ship is 21.2? How did you calculate it? How would you know what the other ships are? You can go in and change that file, but how do you know what to change it to?---simple medium maths

Also, how did they get screwed up from the stock version? IF all the ships are screwed up, how does anyone calculate AOB? Usually I just take a rough guess if I get a ship that is off.

its pretty simple but you need patience. put a ship in ME , calculate his EXACT range ,then take a photo with the stadimeter line showing.then open the photo with the graphic programme and get the exact angle(here is the most difficult part becuase angle is very 'sensitive' value) .then tan(θ/2)=mast/(2xrange).
if the values (length and mast) are not far away from the correct ones you can play your game (aob is not very very critical),thats why you can calculate aob but you will never be acurate
and something for last: you still didn't answer if you tried what i told you or not.

I think all the stock ships are accurate. But GWX changes nearly all the ships; there's hardly a "stock" ship left in it. Still, most of the ships in GWX3 have accurate mast and length values (assuming you've not added extra mods to your GWX installation) so this problem only happens with a few ships.

If you use mods which add new ships or change existing ships then you run the risk of those mods messing up your firing solutions.

i will disagree with you here OLC, its not just a few ships that need corrections.
for example ,take the ship that we are discusing here.its a stock ship.
at stock the mast=23.2 and at gwx ...mast=24.5 or 25.6 (still is a riddle for me why the same ship has different mast's values)
well the most correct is stock's value (without being exactly correct).the problem is getting worst at lengths
of course, i haven't take a look at all the ships but as far i had seen till now all need corrections(ok...maybe there will be some exeptions but this doesn't change the main course)
ps: don't start flames here,if you (everybody) want these things to be corrected ,you are not helping if you close your eyes to the problem...

bye

[jmr]

So there's no way of just opening up a ship's file and getting its measurements from there? You actually have to use the ME as you described to get its mast height? Sounds like a real pain :{

[tmdgm]

hmm, so this might be a good reason to install gwx3.0 if most of the mast heights are correct, i'm still using 2.1. For 2.1 with OLCUber, it's been more than just a few ships.

Makman, I haven't tried it yet as I didn't experience the problem with that ship in particular. My medium cargo seemed ok with 2.1, i kinda agree that all the stock ships in 2.1 seem ok.

The calc method sounds like that would be a pain as you would have to do that for every ship.

[makman94]

hmm, so this might be a good reason to install gwx3.0 if most of the mast heights are correct, i'm still using 2.1. For 2.1 with OLCUber, it's been more than just a few ships.

Makman, I haven't tried it yet as I didn't experience the problem with that ship in particular. My medium cargo seemed ok with 2.1, i kinda agree that all the stock ships in 2.1 seem ok.

The calc method sounds like that would be a pain as you would have to do that for every ship.
well,for medium cargo the mast is not correct,length is ok.
now,you had mentioned one other ship Tmdgm at sh3 mods workshop.i can't remember which one was now but i 'meet' it once and i posted you there the correct values .for that ship the values was tottaly incorrect.go there,find your thread and test them!
as far i know gwx2.1 and gwx3 are using the same masts values

[makman94]

So there's no way of just opening up a ship's file and getting its measurements from there? You actually have to use the ME as you described to get its mast height? Sounds like a real pain :{

i really don't know but i think that with 3d programmes ,as Iambecomelife told me,is not possible .but i don't put my hands in flames for that becuase my english are not so good and maybe i misunderstand him

[harryt8]

Those colored scales around the chronometer are scales to determine speed of a target, as they pass the line of your periscope. The full procedure is a bit more involved than just looking at the target though. (you need to eliminate the effect of your own speed) The colored circles represent a certain length of the target. After the needle has moved X seconds it points to the appropriate speed for the length of that color (100m, 150m or 200m). If the actual ship has a different length you need to chose the color that best fits, or multiply/divide appropriately. But I found a way to (ab)use that range/AOB finder wheel in calculating the speed for any length of ship. See that crooked mark next to the 60 degrees in the inner (AOB) scale?


Pisces,

Can you advise me where I can download a plain chronograph similar to the chrono used by Friedl9te's video on OLC attach solution?

Thank.

Harryt8:up:

[Pisces]

Pisces,

Can you advise me where I can download a plain chronograph similar to the chrono used by Friedl9te's video on OLC attach solution?

Thank.

Harryt8:up:Sorry, I have no idea what you mean with Friedl9te's video. Or I forgot about it if I ever saw it. I also do not know of a place where you can find such a plain chronograph (I presume you mean without those colored scales). But I do think someone made them before. Maybe there are links in the oldest threads (huge page counts; started around 2007 or so) about the OLC gui or Ujagd tools. You'll have to use the search function of the forum. I just woke up and need coffee first. (@ 11:36 in the morning :haha: )

[tmdgm]

well,for medium cargo the mast is not correct,length is ok.
now,you had mentioned one other ship Tmdgm at sh3 mods workshop.i can't remember which one was now but i 'meet' it once and i posted you there the correct values .for that ship the values was tottaly incorrect.go there,find your thread and test them!
as far i know gwx2.1 and gwx3 are using the same masts values

oh yeah, the glanville freighter. that was wayy off. this may be a dumb question, but how do you set a mission up with that specific ship? i'm guessing there's a mission editor somewhere?

[onelifecrisis]

oh yeah, the glanville freighter. that was wayy off. this may be a dumb question, but how do you set a mission up with that specific ship? i'm guessing there's a mission editor somewhere?

I dunno about the mission but yeah, Granville ;) used to be way off, along with the Empire Type Freighter. I assumed that those two, at least, would be fixed in GWX3 because their innacuracies were widely reported... but I've not checked them.

makman, if you say there are very many innacuracies then I believe you. I've never manually checked the ships in a modelling program. But I'd suggest that most of the discrepancies make little actual difference to... well, to anything. I said the ships measurements are mostly accurate because while playing (even in GWX 2.1) my experience was that most ships had data which was accurate enough to get a firing solution. There were exceptions (such as the two ships mentioned above) but generally I managed to hit my targets. Having said that, I would still love to see any inaccuracies corrected! But checking all the ships is a big job. :cry:

[Pisces]

Besides that, who said the Lloyds Register didn't have any mistakes in thier records. :)

[Hitman]

....and anyway the real exact dimensions of the ship were rarely known before the attack. Kaleuns had lots of practice in estimating target's length, heigth and also tonnage, plus getting under 1000 metres as they did whenever possible also reduced chances of missing it.

Oh, and another important thing: Real Kaleuns also missed shots, you know... ;)

[makman94]

oh yeah, the glanville freighter. that was wayy off. this may be a dumb question, but how do you set a mission up with that specific ship? i'm guessing there's a mission editor somewhere?

check in a minute my ff page.i will upload for you the mission i had use for the correction of the Granville freighter.play first the mission with the old values and then play it with the fixed ones(do what i told you at the post at sh3 mods workshop) and you will see how lovely this game can be!(PLEASE RUN ALSO THE GWX-ship bayoncy and draught mod by Rubini)

I dunno about the mission but yeah, Granville ;) used to be way off, along with the Empire Type Freighter. I assumed that those two, at least, would be fixed in GWX3 because their innacuracies were widely reported... but I've not checked them.

makman, if you say there are very many innacuracies then I believe you. I've never manually checked the ships in a modelling program. But I'd suggest that most of the discrepancies make little actual difference to... well, to anything. I said the ships measurements are mostly accurate because while playing (even in GWX 2.1) my experience was that most ships had data which was accurate enough to get a firing solution. There were exceptions (such as the two ships mentioned above) but generally I managed to hit my targets. Having said that, I would still love to see any inaccuracies corrected! But checking all the ships is a big job. :cry:

OLC, yes i agree with you that most of them are playable BUT i don't think that if i done everything right and get an aob of +-15 degrees is something that someone realy likes! most of the values are so so well ,at most of the ships the higher spot is something that is 'pixeling'....meaning showing and hiding and at last you don't even know ...what part of the ship had measure the person who had set these values for masts! the lengths are... out of discusion!they are from another planet...(Averoffs correct length is 185 and now is setted at 140)
I can't agree more with you how painfull this job is.you can't imagine how many hours i had spent for this subject but i can tell you ,for sure , this:if you play the game with the correct values you will simply....love it (aob's acuracy ,if you are very carefull can reach +-2 degrees)! i call everybody who really loves this game to start fixing all of them! not only gwx's ships but wac's also and nygm's too (i haven't play nygm and i don't know if it containes other ships than stock)
i will tell you what i do (suggestion) .i will start a new thread ,and i will write there the ships i had correct till now (in these corrections a had mark at .sils the spots of ship that had measured...like the .sil i had post at post 3 ,so everybody will know what part of ship to measure.sometimes is better to measure the funnel...like the medium cargo)
in that thread everybody who had a 'meet' with a 'problematic' ship can post his corrections.eventually some day all the ships will be fixed ....just hope this thread not to ....sink!

....and anyway the real exact dimensions of the ship were rarely known before the attack. Kaleuns had lots of practice in estimating target's length, heigth and also tonnage, plus getting under 1000 metres as they did whenever possible also reduced chances of missing it.

Oh, and another important thing: Real Kaleuns also missed shots, you know... ;)

i really like a correct recognition manual Hitman.the game itselfs will make it difficult to had a good shot becuase the weather situations(where is the...waterline:) ...the mast is poping up and down...etc), day -night visibilities and tensions in battle are making harder to get your measurments...so inacuracy is always there! but imagine how useless it gets if you plus to all these an untrusted recogninion manual

Besides that, who said the Lloyds Register didn't have any mistakes in thier records. :)
:up:

[Pisces]

Pisces,

Can you advise me where I can download a plain chronograph similar to the chrono used by Friedl9te's video on OLC attach solution?

Thank.

Harryt8:up:Allright I did some deep digging in old threads and found something you probalby meant. But it isn't a video by Friedl9te. It's a walkthrough showing the stopwatch you want (or so I understand).

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=682671&postcount=207

Here is the post with a link to the file. But it is a rapidshare link, and it is dead now. Your best bet in getting it is asking Freidl9te by private message.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=680256&postcount=169

[harryt8]

Pisces,

Thank you for the time and trouble you have gone to research this.
Yes, it was a "step-through" on the OLC attack routine.
I found it useful.
Again, thanks.

Harry:up:

[onelifecrisis]

i will tell you what i do (suggestion) .i will start a new thread ,and i will write there the ships i had correct till now (in these corrections a had mark at .sils the spots of ship that had measured...like the .sil i had post at post 3 ,so everybody will know what part of ship to measure.sometimes is better to measure the funnel...like the medium cargo)
in that thread everybody who had a 'meet' with a 'problematic' ship can post his corrections.eventually some day all the ships will be fixed ....just hope this thread not to ....sink!

Excellent idea IMO. I'd suggest sticking to the actual mast height rather than using things like funnels for measuring, to avoid any confusion. May I also suggest you make it clear in your OP that several popular mods may affect mast heights. I'm not certain, but mods such as Lifeboats & Debris, Thomsen's Ships, STz's Sinking Ships Fix and others may affect how deep each ship sits in the water (which in turn affects mast height of course) and that's without even starting to think about mods such as the Community Units mod. People may get quite different results from the same ships depending on their setups.

[makman94]

Excellent idea IMO. I'd suggest sticking to the actual mast height rather than using things like funnels for measuring, to avoid any confusion. May I also suggest you make it clear in your OP that several popular mods may affect mast heights. I'm not certain, but mods such as Lifeboats & Debris, Thomsen's Ships, STz's Sinking Ships Fix and others may affect how deep each ship sits in the water (which in turn affects mast height of course) and that's without even starting to think about mods such as the Community Units mod. People may get quite different results from the same ships depending on their setups.

yes,that is a good point OLC ! i know for sure that ''GWX_ships_Buoyance&draught_mod'' is effecting the height of the ship that is above water (Rubini had told me that the small ships are about 0.5m deeper,the big about 0.8m and the real big till 1.2m). can anyone ,who is familiar with these type of mods, (i personally have no idea) to confirm which ones of the popular mods are effecting the height ?
ps1: Thomsen's Ships mod is out of discussion becuase a lot of issues with this mod are not sorted yet
ps2: @olc: about funnels or masts : there will be no confuse at all becuase once you recognise the ship it will be shown to you (at the .sil)what part of it to measure. in some cases,like the medium cargo, is much more visible the funnel and its just a little bit lower of its highest part

[onelifecrisis]

Wow, the problem is much worse than I thought. I took a look at the Lifeboats & Debris mod and it completely buggers all of the mast values. :nope: I can't believe I only just found out about this. :damn: No wonder so many people get screwy calculations, when mine are always accurate.

[makman94]

Wow, the problem is much worse than I thought. I took a look at the Lifeboats & Debris mod and it completely buggers all of the mast values. :nope: I can't believe I only just found out about this. :damn: No wonder so many people get screwy calculations, when mine are always accurate.

Note to All
Sorry, but unless/until makman's project to find corrected mast values for the L&D mod is completed you should consider OLC Gold and Lifeboats and Debris to be incompatible.

Actually, **** it, I'll make a proper announcement...

i have the immersion that only the ''GWX_ships_Buoyance&draught_mod'' witch is incuded in the optional files of Lifeboats and Debris mod is effecting the heights. as Rubini describes in the read me only this is effecting the heights.it containes only .sim files (the l+b mod containes .val files but i don't know if these files are effecting the height )
Rubini never mentioned to me (or at his readme for l+b mod) that .val files are effecting the height.
i think that the better is Rubini to confirm that.better pm him
edit:and something else, the ''GWX_ships_Buoyance&draught_mod'' put just a little bit the ships deeper in water. as Rubini told me the light ships are about 0,5m deeper ,the big at about 0,8m and the real big about 1,2m so the harm is not so scary! (that doesnot mean by anyway that must not be fixed ) the problem is at some of the first mast values.
also the rubini's mod is not effecting the LENGTHS of ships.at my first adjustments '' ships1-gwx3'' you will notice that the southampton class had length=180 and the correct is length=169
averoffs length is 140 and the correct is 185,chatham-type troop ship is 167 and the correct is 140 (and others....) so you can't be acurate with these ships even if you use rubini's mod even not
bye

[onelifecrisis]

Hmm, right you are. I thought it was in the .val files but it's actually in the .sim files.

I've edited the announcement post. :up: