Lil Kim Jong Il is playing with his toys again

[baggygreen]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25534043-23109,00.html

How will barry react to this?:ping:

[Task Force]

Those north koreans sure like there missiles.:yep:

[Zachstar]

Airstrikes are needed... Enough is Enough. This is already looking to be more powerful blast than the last test.

We have tried EVERY tool at our disposal to peacefully convince them this is wrong. How many tons of food shipped that could have gone to nations that give a damn?

North Korea is a threat now in my view. Diplomacy has failed and now airstrikes need to start in my view in order to reduce their nuke ability. And their ability to research.

[rubenandthejets]

If the "big stick" was a remotely viable option, wouldn't GW "Im a war president" Bush jumped at it?

I agree, bribing the North Koreans hasn't worked.

Pressuring / bribing the Chinese to pressure the North Koreans is about the only option available.

[JALU3]

Send a WARNO to the DRB at Fort Bragg, just in case.
Watch, and wait

Don't give an consessions to Pyongyang
Ask the PRC to restrict what little trade crosses the Yalu
Tell Pyongyang via some neutral go between (Swiss maybe) that they aren't getting nothing from no body, and if they think they are, that they are fooling themselves
Oh, and freeze what offshore accounts the DPRK has, that you can

[Dowly]

*Yawn* :yep:

[McBeck]

Airstrikes are needed... Enough is Enough. This is already looking to be more powerful blast than the last test.

We have tried EVERY tool at our disposal to peacefully convince them this is wrong. How many tons of food shipped that could have gone to nations that give a damn?

North Korea is a threat now in my view. Diplomacy has failed and now airstrikes need to start in my view in order to reduce their nuke ability. And their ability to research.
Are they a threat just because they have nukes?

[Dowly]

Are they a threat just because they have nukes?

EXACTLY! :yeah:

[GoldenRivet]

i say let them alone.

let them have their nukes... once they use a single nuke - their world will end swiftly

[Respenus]

i say let them alone.

let them have their nukes... once they use a single nuke - their world will end swiftly

And ours as well.

[GoldenRivet]

And ours as well.

not necessarily.

Lets say they launch one and manage to hit LA. or Hawaii

the death toll will be massive, we lose lots of life and a city.

North Korea on the other hand will cease to exist... they lose everything and their entire land mass becomes uninhabitable for decades.

[Fincuan]

I wouldn't be that worried they'd hit the US. South Korea is much closer, and even without nukes NK has the world's largest artillery forces. Seoul is nicely within range from the border.

[Respenus]

not necessarily.

Lets say they launch one and manage to hit LA. or Hawaii

the death toll will be massive, we lose lots of life and a city.

North Korea on the other hand will cease to exist... they lose everything and their entire land mass becomes uninhabitable for decades.

First of all, do you really believe that the moment the USA launches its missiles, the Russians, Chinese, Indians all the remainder and the lot who have declared or undeclared nuclear weapons will not launch missile of their own? Do you think Russia will call the USA and ask what is going on? There is a bloody good reasons why no nukes were used after the second world war. Their is no limitation to their use or their effect.

Which brings me to my second point. Let us hypothetically say that the USA obliterates North Korea from the face of the Earth and there is no outside retaliation, what do you think happens to all the radiation? It won't stay confined to the borders of North Korea. No, you'll have an irradiated world, with Russia, China, South Korea, Oceania proper and others suffering from massive radiation poisoning or the land, air, water and people. If they haven't retaliated until now, they will now, as they will search for new land on which to live.

So, launching a nuclear weapon is not as simple as it might appear.

[Oberon]

Hmmm, so this one actually detonated properly then.
Well, that's a start, now they just have to develop a reliable missile to launch it with :haha:

[Raptor1]

The DPRK is, at this point, technologically advanced enough to destroy itself and no-one else effectively...

[Oberon]

The DPRK is, at this point, technologically advanced enough to destroy itself and no-one else effectively...

I think it reached that stage quite a few years ago ;) The military is about the only thing keeping it from falling apart I'd say.

[Raptor1]

I think it reached that stage quite a few years ago ;) The military is about the only thing keeping it from falling apart I'd say.

Of course, that's how it goes with most totalitarian regimes

[Oberon]

Of course, that's how it goes with most totalitarian regimes

Speaking from experience, eh? Great leader of Northwestern Bigfootia :03:

[baggygreen]

First of all, do you really believe that the moment the USA launches its missiles, the Russians, Chinese, Indians all the remainder and the lot who have declared or undeclared nuclear weapons will not launch missile of their own? Do you think Russia will call the USA and ask what is going on? There is a bloody good reasons why no nukes were used after the second world war. Their is no limitation to their use or their effect.

Which brings me to my second point. Let us hypothetically say that the USA obliterates North Korea from the face of the Earth and there is no outside retaliation, what do you think happens to all the radiation? It won't stay confined to the borders of North Korea. No, you'll have an irradiated world, with Russia, China, South Korea, Oceania proper and others suffering from massive radiation poisoning or the land, air, water and people. If they haven't retaliated until now, they will now, as they will search for new land on which to live.

So, launching a nuclear weapon is not as simple as it might appear.
To interject for a moment on this understandable train of thought..

On the first point, it won't be an icbm. If nuke retaliation was the way it'd more than likely be TLAM-Ns, a cruise missile. I also strongly suspect that the russkies and chinese would be ****ting themselves at the fear they might be held responsible, so yes they'd be jittery and have a finger on the button. However, if the US has a smart leader, they'll notify those nations of his plan and it is unlikely that anything further would come of it.

More than likely this is moot, I'd expect a display of firepower that made shock and awe look like kids playing with tom thumbs! maybe carpetbombing with moabs? imagine that....

on the 2nd point, that is an irrational fear, bred and spread by ignorance (no offence intended at all to yourself respenus, more those who began the fear). Countless nukes have been exploded all around the globe. The US, Japan, Russia, Australia, half the Pacific, China, and then I'm probably missing more. It takes more than 1 nuke to irradiate the globe. Yes, radiation will spread, but it takes much more than most people think to do serious damage. Point is, a couple of nukes going off won't kill of the world. It won't be nice to be nearby, but its not the end of humanity. And please noone go on at me underestimating the horror of nukes, I've met a nagasaki survivor, I know all about it.

Anyways, like I said, I doubt a nuke response to NK will take place. Too much at stake for it to be a long-term, beneficient action to the US. bring on B52s dropping MOABs all over the shop.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Wouldnt suprise me if there were a couple of guys from the major powers permeated throughout North Korea just waiting to pop Kim's melon.

[Oberon]

At this stage I think that Kim is out of the loop anyway, if indeed he was ever truely in it. To shake up the DPRK you need to hit the military command structure IMHO. :hmmm:

[JALU3]

Who Says Kim is still alive? Even that is up for speculation.

[SteamWake]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25534043-23109,00.html

How will barry react to this?:ping:

Regarless of who is pushing the button and seeing as how they more or less mocked him by launching a missle while he was delivering a speech on arms reduction and nothing was said then. I sincerly doubt anything will be said now.

[Respenus]

on the 2nd point, that is an irrational fear, bred and spread by ignorance (no offence intended at all to yourself respenus, more those who began the fear). Countless nukes have been exploded all around the globe. The US, Japan, Russia, Australia, half the Pacific, China, and then I'm probably missing more. It takes more than 1 nuke to irradiate the globe. Yes, radiation will spread, but it takes much more than most people think to do serious damage. Point is, a couple of nukes going off won't kill of the world. It won't be nice to be nearby, but its not the end of humanity. And please noone go on at me underestimating the horror of nukes, I've met a nagasaki survivor, I know all about it.

Thank you for your response, yet you must know that I was responding to GoldenRivet and his idea that NK would be removed from the face of the Earth, turned into a glass desert, so to speak and this would require massive amounts of nukes. You though tactical nukes and cruise missiles, I imagined 1MT+ explosions on every piece of land and not just military installations. If an attack was to be made before NK attacked the US, then we can all be sure, they will use more conventional and effective weapons.

As far as nuclear tests are concerned, I imagine I know enough that whatever damage they might have caused is either hidden or in many cases limited.

[Steel_Tomb]

The problem with NK is its artillery placed along the DMZ. That alone would devastate Seoul where most of the population is held up, along with one of the most important cities for world markets. Not to mention you then have the issue of the mass Armour attacks which SK simply can't stop. You'd probably look at them pushed back to the Pusan permimiter again before any realistic counter-attack can be met. The US isn't station there in strength like it used to... there would need to be a big build up of military equipment and personel over a few months before they'd be ready to fight on equal terms. Public opinion is still subterrainian about armed conflict at the moment, especially with Iraq/Afghanistan... more troops are on their way to Afghanistan so to be honest along with Iraqi deployments and units resting on rotation I don't believe the US Army has the man power to make a stand on the Korean Peninsula. The USAF would be a big aid over there, but you would need nearly all their A-10's and god knows how many fighters to knock down the walls of MiG's... a chance for the F-22 to prove its worth perhaps? The DRPK has old aircraft, but it has lots of them... even MiG-21's are deadly if they get close enough... :down:.


My only thoughts on a hypothetical attack would be this:



Massive pre-emptive strikes on command and control systems, including telecommunications and any sattelite links they may have. This could be done using special forces on the ground, or a huge TLAM attack from off shore SSN's.
The destruction of major bridges along the DMZ, it would create bottlenecks around the remaining ones and would severely restrict any ground offensive.
Focused CAS/BAI to hit ground targets along the DMZ, priority targets would be the many artillery positions. These would have to be ID'd before and taken out by using guided munitions... I'm sure a squadron of B-2's filled with JDAM's would be great for this.
Clear the skies... "blitzkrieg" style attack in the air, with simultatious SEAD/OCA strikes and fighter sweeps to gain air superiority, knock out their aircraft in the skies and prevent the rest from taking off by knocking out their runways. Most airfields have their hangers burried inside mountains so we would have to make some mighty big holes in their runways.
Prepare for a ground offensive. After the skies are clear the armour would be at the mercy of the air force, the A-10 would make its presense felt here by knocking out tank columns. Whilst this is going on, the supply lines to the rear could be hit, NK has very limited supplies of fuel so this would be a cruicial point in the outcome of the war. Its shown in history once the skies are owned by the enemy advancing is incredibly difficult. Hopefully if the enemy advance can be stalled/halted then time could be bought for diplomatic ventures or to resupply/build up more forces in the region.

The above is based on the US/NATO/UN present in force in South Korea... SK on its own just couldn't hope to stop an all out attack.

[Ishmael]

The solution to me is really quite simple. Since Kim Jong Il IS the King of the Communists, having inherited the throne from his dad, Kim Il Sung, here's how you solve North Korea's energy production crisis.

Go around the world and dig up all the Old Commies like Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, the lot. Ship all the bodies to North Korea. The North Koreans can hook up the bodies to generators and power the entire country while all those guys are...SPINNING IN THEIR GRAVES!

I also thought about making Kim a Spiffy crown as King of the Commies. It would have higher than normal crown points to give him a little extra height and the points could be adorned on top with Red Stars and Hammers and Sickels. Can you just picture him wearing something like that at the next May Day parade?

You see? It ONLY works as long as Kim remains the King of the Commies.

[nikimcbee]

I snickered when I heard obama's response:haha:

The United Nations Security Council has been called to an emergency meeting in New York to discuss the crisis.
All eyes will be on Mr Obama to see if keeps his promise to seek a diplomatic solution to North Korea's provocative actions

His glib tongue will resolve this:yeah:

:zzz:

Oh God, not the UN!:har:

I'll play devil's advocate: NO BLOOD FOR KIM-CHI!

I'm afraid I'm with dowly on this one.
:zzz:

[Seth8530]

Personally, i dont know what the hold up is, damn international opinion. we should be sending in tactical airstrikes this very minute to destroy thier launch facilities and uranium enrichment program. Then lets see if Iran will think twice about his program. If we keep letting them have thier way with us, nothing will be done untill thousands of civi's are dead in a nuclear hell hole.

[Raptor1]

"Peace for our time"

Those words were spoken in a very similar situation

[Steel_Tomb]

I don't know why the security council are even bothering to meet. Its not like they can do anything along the lines of military action... China and Russia will just VETO it... the UN is a lame duck when it comes to resolving situations like this. Russia and China should never have been granted VETO's... you don't give the two biggest supporters of arms exports and supporting dictatorships the ability to stop the people who want fairness and justice from resolving the problem!:damn::damn::damn: Can you imagine the UN getting together the force they had in the 50's again with china in the mix... they wouldn't have been able to do it then because of a VETO either... idiots.

[Oberon]

Steel Tombs Op Plan looks pretty solid to my thinking, but the question is the gap between now and then. Something that caught my friends eye whilst we were discussing the news:


"After the worst harvest for a decade, the World Food Programme believe a quarter of the population of North Korea need food aid.
To divert attention, the government has abruptly broken off talks, test-firing both long- and short-range missiles and then carrying out the underground test, a major escalation, our correspondent says."


:hmmm:
Now there's nothing like an empty stomach to motivate people, of course the King of the Communists (I love the idea of generating power from spinning Marx :har:) will insure that he (if he's still alive) and his military buddies get the best crops of the best, but the lower down you go, eventually you're going to get to a point where there are a group of people with guns who are unhappy, and when that happens it's trouble, so you need to distract them.
It could be that Kim is bargaining on the US striking first, hoping to goad them into hitting their nuclear facilities or something similar, so that he will be able to thrive on the propaganda and feed pictures of US bombers bombing 'innocent Korean children' to his people over and over again, perhaps he hopes that the UN will embargo him more, so that he will be able to show people pictures of starving Korean children and blame the UN for starving them, although that route is a little bit more difficult to take for prolonged periods.
I heard a reporter from Seoul today say that "Some foreign analysts spend their entire lives trying to second guess the DPRK, and they still get it wrong."
The DPRK is a loose cannon, no-one knows which way it will go, or indeed how it is still existing.

[Fincuan]

FYI World's largets arms exporters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry#World.27s_largest_arms_exporters). Russia is second, China is way down the list and a whole another country holds the lead with a huge margin. What comes to Vetos I see no reason why anyone should have that right. It's not like China and Russia are the only ones known to sometimes use their Veto on torpedoing "good" resolutions.

[GoldenRivet]

First of all, do you really believe that the moment the USA launches its missiles, the Russians, Chinese, Indians all the remainder and the lot who have declared or undeclared nuclear weapons will not launch missile of their own? Do you think Russia will call the USA and ask what is going on? There is a bloody good reasons why no nukes were used after the second world war. Their is no limitation to their use or their effect.

Which brings me to my second point. Let us hypothetically say that the USA obliterates North Korea from the face of the Earth and there is no outside retaliation, what do you think happens to all the radiation? It won't stay confined to the borders of North Korea. No, you'll have an irradiated world, with Russia, China, South Korea, Oceania proper and others suffering from massive radiation poisoning or the land, air, water and people. If they haven't retaliated until now, they will now, as they will search for new land on which to live.

So, launching a nuclear weapon is not as simple as it might appear.

Talk to the missile cause the Kim Jong Il aint listenin' :O:

[Task Force]

Too bad we cant just put all of north korea on the planet Mercury.:hmmm:

[Raptor1]

Too bad we cant just put all of north korea on the planet Mercury.:hmmm:

Huh? I was under the impression they are there already

[Task Force]

:oI didnt think they were.:o
I thought they were right above south korea.:hmmm:

[Skybird]

For the time being, N-Korea trades threats for goods. the deal usually goes like this: they provoke, intimidate, have a test, thr world goes loud and crazy, and the bad man promises to play nice for some weeks if he gets what he wants: money, food and energy deliveries.

I currently cannot see anybody being willing to replace this - admitted: bullying - exchnage trade system being replaced with open war. Lresson from the Balkan wars: most of the targetted Serbian tanks escaped, so did most of their heavy artillery, although NATO had undisputed air superiority. Now, N-Korea holds maybe the greatest, at leasts one of the greatest forces of simple artillery pieces worldwide, and much of it is stationed in breach of the Seoul area, or could be moved into reach within one day. To assume that any air force - including then american Air Force - is capable to supress that immense ammount of guntubes from the beginning on so that they are not able to turn most of seoul into ashes, is extremely optimistic, and in the face of the Balkan experinces: naive.

If you talk about war on the Korean peninsula, you will the death of tens if not hundreds of thousands of civilians. Seoul and surroundings is incredibly densely populated.

Realax everybody, take a deep breath, switch on your b rain again. The airstrikes you mdemand will not be started, the allout war is further delayed.

Kim surely is a pain in the lower bottom, but his major threat is not open war in the region, but N-Korea selling key nuke tech to people we do not want to have access to nuke tech. Like with Iran, proliferation is what the game is about. Seen that way, N-Korea's action today and in the past 4 months were pendants to TV commercials. They are advertising.

Hopes of the good-willing peace-at-all-cost-fans that the problem will solve itself if only you wait long enough, also are off track. A Korean reunification, an opening to the south or the West, would mean that the N-korean poulation learns information the rgime cannot control, so the people will learn the turth about their situation and this simply means the end of the power-basis of the regime. Therefore, the regime will never allow such events to happen, and will not allow peace-promoting actions to lead too far.

Only current option I see as realistic is to contain proliferation efforts, and to infiltrate N-korea's nuke tech induistry as good as possible. To contain proliferation, you need both Russia and china, who have economic interests. - Maybe you now see why I say it is so very very stupid and shortsighted to always provoke Russia (and China). This Korean issue is a thousand times more important than all Georgia, Ukraine and Aserbaidjhan will and can ever be. Instead we must find the key triggers that make Russia and China agree to isolate N-korea and control it's borders strictly and hopefully contain proliferation. We need to polay for time, and an unknown ammount of it. I hate to need playing for time, but that'S how it is. Korea is currently mor eimportant than Iran, and both nations thrat potential bases not so much on them starting world war III, but proliferation. The main tool to prevent that can only be infiltration, targetted elimination, intel operations, surgical counter terror operations, supporting local opposition and trying to trigger a coup, if possible (not likely) - not air strikes. And this is true for N-korea as well as Iran, at least as long as you are not willing to use nuclear weapons yourself in the first, and will the death of hundreds of thousands of innocents. Using nukes I see as the only valid military option, every other military option currently seems to be doomed to cause not an end with horror, but horror without end. That'S why I am a bit gloomy about military options in this case. we even do not know where the nukes are. we do not know it in case of Korea. not in case of Pakistan. And we do not know the precise coordinates of key components of the Iranian program. If we would know these informations, I would all be for an immediate total nuclear strike to take these nuclear targets out completely and close these ongpoing annoyjng chapters of world policy. but we do not know, so - as long as I hear no better option, we need to play for time. If times go by and things turning worse, we still can launch wars and massacre some hundred thousand people. But we must not hurry ahead with it. Nuclear war is not fun.

[Platapus]

FYI World's largets arms exporters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry#World.27s_largest_arms_exporters). Russia is second, China is way down the list and a whole another country holds the lead with a huge margin. What comes to Vetos I see no reason why anyone should have that right. It's not like China and Russia are the only ones known to sometimes use their Veto on torpedoing "good" resolutions.

I agree, the single veto concept on the UNSC really needs to go. But I can't see any of the big five giving that power away. It is too valuable.

[CaptainHaplo]

NK isn't going to move against SK - they know they might be able to TAKE Sk - but they could never HOLD it. They also know that if they tried, they would be looking at a response that would remove the existing heirarchy of authority in NK.

What has to be understood is that saber rattling is something BOTH korea's are good at. However, NK may be at an advantage military wise, they lack the infrastructure to hold on to any military gain long term. Thus it makes no sense for them to actually invade SK. However, it DOES make sense for them to rattle a saber and get some more "goodies" from the world.

Much ado about nothing really. China doesn't want a nuclear NK any more than Russia - they will more than likely take care of the issue well before we would need to address it.

[bookworm_020]

With NK having such large stocks of chemical and bio weapons, it can do great damage across the South even without a nuclear weapon. This is one of the reasons why there has been no military action against them to this point.

Cutting off supplies of food and oil would get a reaction, but it might not be pretty. I don't think China would back the North as they did in the 50's as the nuclear test have caused them to loose face and they know that they would be hurt if they backed them, openly or not.

[baggygreen]

I can't help but wonder where the special forces are, indeed where they have been for the past however long.. surely nobody would condemn the demise of this clown. Shame he's so cagey now though.

My problem is this. We know that most aid doesn't go to the people and yet we throw more at them. With that aid money, they build - and apparently are getting cloer to perfecting - icbms and nukes. next step will be miniaturising nukes, which will happen. When they've got baby nukes, thats when the trouble begins, because the tech will be shared.

Does anyone really, sincerely doubt that the Syrians had a reactor which the israelis destroyed? and does anybody doubt that NK was involved? Does anyone doubt that the Iranians had a vested interest? That is the real threat.

no substantive action of any kind can be taken against NK because they are holding a number of aces. It's a free place to research and develop, and the irony is that the west has funded it! The only real way to have any effect on NK is a complete aid embargo, given as pretty well everything else is already stopped. But we can't do that because in the west we have a sense of ethics which says punishing the civilians is bad.

My question is this. What is worse for the civvies - us not throwing aid theway of NK and pretty well the entire population living as they already do? Or us continuing the aid programs, which serve only to benefit the horrid excuse for leadership they have there, who do little but oppress the civvies anyway?

[rubenandthejets]

The rockets are probably too unreliable to hit the USa, but the world's second biggest economy and the region's staunchest US ally is well within reach.

South Korea can be easily annihilated by conventional means, but Japan is a big fat nuke magnet. It's not like there will be any love lost in that little exchange. With Japan's constitution limiting its milliatry options and causing a enough confusion to let a sneaky missile evade the Patriot, Aegis and other anti missile systems, it's not unlikely that in the event of a "shootin' war" we'd see mushroom clouds over the land of the rising sun.

As a resident of greater Tokyo, it's not something I'd like to see. My dad said seeing the bones of his hand in front of his face off Montebello was pretty amazing, but I'll pass....

[Skybird]

The rockets are probably too unreliable to hit the USa, but the world's second biggest economy and the region's staunchest US ally is well within reach.

???

They are unreliable to hit the US, so you claim, by that you conclude they can hit Europe nevertheless?

Or have you confused economy sizes? The IMF marks the US GDP at 14.3 trillion $US in January 2009 , Eurostat marks the EU GDP with 17.43 trillion $US (=12.506 trillion euros) in May 2009.

Chinese GDP ranks at around 7-8 trillion $US, Japan at around 5 trillion $US.


I can't help but wonder where the special forces are, indeed where they have been for the past however long.. surely nobody would condemn the demise of this clown.

If we would note them, they probably would not be worth to be called special forces. ;)

[Kapitan_Phillips]

If we would note them, they probably would not be worth to be called special forces. ;)


Fair point :haha:

[Hanomag]

Kim ..."Dont you know HOW PHUC'n Busy I am !!!"

"Hans Brixx.. Oh Noooooooooo!" :rotfl:

[Kapitan_Phillips]

LOL!

[Steel_Tomb]

What do you guys think of NK's latest outburst? Is it just an attention grabber so they feel important or do you think they will seriously consider fulfilling such a crazy adventure? SK would be hit badly but the North would get absolutely wasted...

[Skybird]

They cerztainly already plan again to sell nuclear knowhow and tech-help, that'S why the S-Korea's joining of the American anti-prilifareation initiative makes them so noisy - having your ships searched when you want to use them for smuggling is somewhat damaging to your intentions. The North'S situation is desperate, a total no win-situation in all regards. Also, the man is ill, maybe temrinally ill, and he is old.

Fear the old men. They have nothing to lose.

German media reported the Russians have started preparing for a nuclear war on the korean peninsula by mobilising counter-ABC troops and sending them into the region. It was also reported in Russian media.

[Platapus]

- having your ships searched when you want to use them for smuggling is somewhat damaging to your intentions.

Under the PSI the North Korean Ships can only be searched while they are inside the territorial waters of a PSI member.

Actually the PSI did not change much, the existing laws cover everything the PSI does. The only purpose of the PSI was to formalize operations across different nation's waters.

[Steel_Tomb]

I thought that the ships would be searched in international waters? Otherwise isn't it rather pointless as NK would just make sure none of its ships passed through a members territorial waters.

[Skybird]

Under the PSI the North Korean Ships can only be searched while they are inside the territorial waters of a PSI member.

Actually the PSI did not change much, the existing laws cover everything the PSI does. The only purpose of the PSI was to formalize operations across different nation's waters.

So what. The North still will not like it's ships being searched while smuggling nuclear components.

And considering how desperate the north'S situation is, maybe it is a good idea to search every Northkorean ship leaving Northern harbours and national waters, heading away from Korea.

Else the Israeli Air Force maybe needs to clean up the mess behind the law-loving bureaucrats, like they did with that nuclear facility in Syria recently.

What's better: having a law-ignoring searching of a ship, or a law-ignoring air strike on such a nuclear facility?

[Platapus]

What's better: having a law-ignoring searching of a ship, or a law-ignoring air strike on such a nuclear facility?

I don't accept those options as being exhaustive.

[Skybird]

And I do not accept nuclear proliferation.

Trust is nice. Control is better. Paper is patient.

[Skybird]

It seems the US is moving a bit into the direction of my argument on the need to search their ships (as long as it is not just tpough words born of helplessness).

Subsim.com's front page links this:

"North Korea may face blockade by US Navy"


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/north-korea-may-face-blockade-by-us-navy-14314655.html

My support for such a move. Other navies should join the operation. The issue is far more urgent than the multi-national armada operating in the pirate-infested waters at Somalia.

If the Indians could get to join it, the cooperation between the US Navy and the Indian navy could additonally help to boost relations, since the Obama administration plans to strengthen ties with India and militarily cooperating closer with them anyway. Sounds like a nice and free bonus, seen that way. Having closer relations to India cannot hurt.

In the past, searching of ships was not often done, becaseu of fears over irrational reactions from the northkoreans. Well, somewhow that Northkorean nuclear equipement must have reached the Syrians, and in quite some volumes, and so we know the answer. searching their ships holds a risk. not searching their ships holds an even greater risk. So lets do it, but not without being prepared for the worst. If people have doubts over the northkoreans, they might want to transform and shift the movie "Downfalll" into a Korean context. They say the film is basing on true historic events and is about the murderish and self-deceiving reactions of an isolated man who looks back at the ruins of his life, and has nothing to lose anymore. By that he concludes he must destroy his whole people, because they do not deserve to live if they cannot fulfill his expectations in them.

[XabbaRus]

I think NK is one of the hardest places for spec. ops to operate thus we haven't topped lil' Kim.

[XabbaRus]

I wouldn't worry about the SKs.

They hold monthly drills where the population evacuates Seoul and they can turn every highway into a functioning runway within an hour.

[Oberon]

http://www.leasticoulddo.com/comics/20090601.gif

[TLAM Strike]

I think NK is one of the hardest places for spec. ops to operate thus we haven't topped lil' Kim.

I think you hit it right on the nose Xabba, just imagin trying to infiltrate a prison and overthrow the warden!

There was a reason western spies didn't last long the in the Soviet Union. Communist nations are built on keeping tabs on what everyone in their borders is doing. The North Koreans are already watching their borders to make sure none of their own people get out, trying to sneak operators in is while not impossable very very very difficult plus there is the problem of remaining hidden in what is a police state where everything and everyone is guarded and the civilian population is hostile from decates of brainwashing propaganda.

[TheSatyr]

Yeah we could launch air strikes,but air power alone can't take ground. Those who advocate nuke strikes of any kind are nuts. Neither you nor I can say how China or Russia would react and I personally would prefer not to find out. With a large portion of our troops tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan there really isn't a hell of alot we COULD do if NK invaded SK,we just don't have the resources any more...and NK knows it. I'm just surprised that they haven't invaded already.

All we could really do is just sit back and watch. And as for air strikes,NK has one hell of an air defense system so if we did it expect heavy losses. This isn't Iraq we are talking about. This is a Nation that has spent the past 50 years preparing for this.

[Raptor1]

Yeah we could launch air strikes,but air power alone can't take ground. Those who advocate nuke strikes of any kind are nuts. Neither you nor I can say how China or Russia would react and I personally would prefer not to find out. With a large portion of our troops tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan there really isn't a hell of alot we COULD do if NK invaded SK,we just don't have the resources any more...and NK knows it. I'm just surprised that they haven't invaded already.

All we could really do is just sit back and watch. And as for air strikes,NK has one hell of an air defense system so if we did it expect heavy losses. This isn't Iraq we are talking about. This is a Nation that has spent the past 50 years preparing for this.

Air power can't take ground, but it has been proven in and since WWII that air superiority can so severely cripple a conventional army that it's relative numerical superiority becomes useless.

I'm not saying gaining air superiority over the DPRK will be easy, but it probably can be achieved, given enough preperations...