backwards under water ?

[ichso]

Is going backwards when submerged realistic at all ? I mean what good effect could the dive planes still have then as they are shaped like the wings of a plane and are supposed to keep the sub at level, down or whatever when moving forwards.

Another weird thing in the game is that, if I give a precise course when going backwards my crew will always turn the rudder into the wrong direction so we're making almost a 360° turn instead of a slight adjustion.

[Rockin Robbins]

That sounds like a question for our real submariners around here. There's no reason dive planes wouldn't work in reverse. There is a possibility that there would be a strict speed limit because of excessive control loads on the shafts overstressing the actuators, but that's just speculation. Davey!!!!!!!

[Webster]

the props arent very efficient either so thats part of it too but im not really understanding this?

so are you sailing around in reverse? or are you talking about just backing up?

just like driving your car in reverse it can be done but its not easy to control that way and stearing can get confusing

[ichso]

When I'm on patrol I mostly use the forward tubes only if there is only a single target at once. But at some point I'm forced to use the backward tubes also and this means that I will have to make either a rapid turn just before shooting or sometimes I get into a good position early but need to narrow the distance still a bit. It is then very comfortable to approach the target backwards.

[SteamWake]

For stern shots I just line up with my stern facing the proper direction and creep foward at 1/2 knot and let the target come to me.

No need to sail around backwards :rotfl:

[rditto48801]

On rare occasion I will back up when trying to sneak away from enemy ships/escorts... that way I can get a little distance and have a clear arc for hydrophone use so I don't get a nasty surprise of an escort having found me after turning away to sneak away. Better to know I got trouble coming rather than hear a warning of depth charges in the water. :dead:
Sure, it's probably not efficient, but it's handy at times.

Although, I wonder what a sub going in reverse sounds like when heard from the front...

It's also handy when you want to slow the sub down as fast as possible for some reason.

[ichso]

For stern shots I just line up with my stern facing the proper direction and creep foward at 1/2 knot and let the target come to me.

No need to sail around backwards :rotfl:
Lol, I didn't mean that I creep around backwards all the time when I'm going to use my stern tubes. I just meant that I would get into position, turn around and make necessary adjustments to my position that way and that sometimes means going backwards.
But while we're at it, creeping around forward submerged isn't so much less creepy than creeping backwards ;)

I just thought about wether going into back would destroy the 'aqua dynamic effect' :D of the dive planes, or how this would be called

[SteamWake]

Lol, I didn't mean that I creep around backwards all the time when I'm going to use my stern tubes. I just meant that I would get into position, turn around and make necessary adjustments to my position that way and that sometimes means going backwards.
But while we're at it, creeping around forward submerged isn't so much less creepy than creeping backwards ;)

I just thought about wether going into back would destroy the 'aqua dynamic effect' :D of the dive planes, or how this would be called

Hydrodynamic, well seeing as how the game doesent really model effects of dive planes (they still work when left up) there going to work anyhow.

But yes in real life I would imagine the planes would work as long as they have water flowing over them regardless of direction except controls would be reversed .. up = down, left = right.

[DaveyJ576]

It is extraordinarily difficult to control a submerged submarine while backing down. All of your control surfaces are now reversed.

Normally the bow planes are used to control depth and the stern planes are used to control angle. If you are backing down, this would be reversed. But what is worse is that the planes are operated backwards! What would normally be dive is now rise and vice versa! Same with the rudder: port would be starboard and so on. For a crew that is trained to a razor's edge to operate their gear in a specific fashion this would be a very, very difficult mental transition to make.

To make matters worse, the hydrodynamic shape of the hull is such that it is designed to be controllable when the boat is moving through the water bow first! Reverse this and the boat will be a pig to handle, to put it mildly.

Combine all these factors together and you have a situation where the boat will go out of control pretty easily and quickly. Test depth on most of the fleet boats was only 300-400 feet. Take a significant down angle due to a loss of control and one end of the boat will exceed this really quick. It is not much further than that and you have exceeded crush depth, which makes for a really bad day.

So, can you back down while submerged? Yes, but you would want to do it very slowly (not more that 1-2 knots), very, very carefully, and at a shallow depth so that you can recover if necessary.

[Rockin Robbins]

And it's not modeled in the game but think about malfunction. When you are going forward and you apply an angle to the dive plane, a force is exerted on the control surface from the water pressure. This force tries to return the control surface to the neutral position. If you lose hydraulics and have to control it manually, you may not be able to manage a lot of deflection, but you're under control.

Now let's run this thing in reverse. Instead of water pressure trying to return the control surface to neutral, it is now trying to deflect it to it's maximum up or down angle, right up against the stop! Chances of regaining control if you lose hydraulics is slim. First you would have to stop the boat to lessen loads on the diving planes. Since the boat is out of control this might be entirely impossible.

[DaveyJ576]

RR,

Great point and perfectly stated.

[peabody]

Is going backwards when submerged realistic at all ? I mean what good effect could the dive planes still have then as they are shaped like the wings of a plane and are supposed to keep the sub at level, down or whatever when moving forwards.

Another weird thing in the game is that, if I give a precise course when going backwards my crew will always turn the rudder into the wrong direction so we're making almost a 360° turn instead of a slight adjustion.

The second part of your question about the steering was a topic of discussion in here when the Uboat Add on came out. It has been changed.

In version 1.4 if you gave a heading of 0 degrees or north you would go north, surprise. Now if you go into reverse, the game would keep the BOW pointed north as you went backwards. So for example if you were attacking a convoy and they started to zigzag and got too close for your torpedo to arm, you simply backup.

When 1.5 (uboat add on) came out, this changed. If you order a course of north and then go into reverse, the game will turn the ship 180 degrees so the STERN is pointing north. So you can't simply 'backup' anymore even though you do not have the rudder turned it will automatically turn so your sub is 'travelling' north.

So there was agreement and disagreement on this. If your rudder is amidships and you simply want to 'backup', you actually did not issue a change in heading and the BOW should remain on it's original "Heading" but in 1.5 it does not.

An example of why I disagree with the "new steering". Let's say you are entering a narrow port or trying to dock the ship and another ship pulls in front of you. If you just put the sub into reverse, you will do a 180 degree turn. When in real life you would simply go backwards. (which is exactly what happened in version 1.4) So you have to keep this in mind anytime you backup with version 1.5.

In both versions the steering is opposite when reversing and that is normal, but in 1.4 it was contolled by keeping the bow headed in the right direction, in 1.5 you have to keep the stern pointed in the right direction. So in 1.4 you would use the top of the compass rose to make minor adjustments, but in 1.5 you need to use the bottom of the compass rose, otherwise you will turn 180 degrees.

Peabody

[Rockin Robbins]

Darn! I just deleted my video proving to Webster about a year ago that if the rudder is centered and you order reverse the boat DOES NOT do the 180. But it does not. The only situation where it will is if the rudder is not centered.

[Frame57]

Yep! Also when backing just order the degree of rudder you need. Forget about ordering a course:salute:

[Webster]

Darn! I just deleted my video proving to Webster about a year ago that if the rudder is centered and you order reverse the boat DOES NOT do the 180. But it does not. The only situation where it will is if the rudder is not centered.


yep, and remember cause im hard headed we also figured out the glitch where it was different when you ordered "return to previous course" it would drive backwards on that course but if you just clicked on the compass then it would turn around first or something like that.

it was a long time ago but i remember there was a glitch where it would go the opposite way.

[peabody]

Darn! I just deleted my video proving to Webster about a year ago that if the rudder is centered and you order reverse the boat DOES NOT do the 180. But it does not. The only situation where it will is if the rudder is not centered.

Thank you RR, it was so long ago, I forgot that part. I am so used to making minor adjustments while backing up that slipped my mind. It is only if you issue a return to course, make a course correction or are in a turn when you backup that it does the 180. My mistake, thank you for correcting me (again.) I will put on the dunce hat and sit in the cornor. How many days detention do I get?:88)

In my defense: I learned everything I know about subs from "Down Periscope" and "U-571". ;)

I was mainly pointing out the steering changed form 1.4 to 1.5 for anyone running into that situation and in the process I gave wrong information. Give me another 25 yrs and I'll have this figured out. Maybe.

@ichso: Sorry for steering you in the wrong direction.
Peabody