Weird problem with Vista 64bit and some games

[NeonSamurai]

I've got an odd problem with some games and Vista 64 Home Premium.

Ok so this is what is happening, for a couple of games the graphics lurch around while playing (slow down then suddenly lurch forward and catch up) every 3-5 seconds. One game that is doing this is ArmA (which is suppost to work fine with Vista 64 and the beta patch). Thing is most games work fine, but I've had the symptoms so far with ArmA, GTA 4, and a couple of other games. This problem also doesn't exist in XP.

Other thing is this is not normal video lag (FPS rate doesn't nose dive), everything else happens as if nothing happened (audio plays normal, no other game anomolies). Most of my other games work fine. One game I was able to fix after I noticed that it ran better unplugged (laptop here), and traced it to having the processor limited to 50%.

Changing them over to XP is also not an option, GTA 4 for some unknown reason crashes after 5-10 minutes of play, and with ArmA I need the built in mic (which only works in vista).

Any ideas as I can't find an answer or a solution so far.

[AVGWarhawk]

Did you check the game forums for a possible answer? Your memory has been tested? I would go their first as it seems the issue is messing with several of your games. In short, I'm thinking a hardware issue.

[NeonSamurai]

Yes checked all over the internet. Pretty certain it is not the memory, most games actually work perfectly that I have tested.

I have tried...
Changing power settings, disabling vista aero and other stuff, various compatibility modes, restricting the available ram to 3gb, in game graphics settings (absolute minimum settings), updated all the drivers I could think of, tried different graphic drivers (I'm near positive its not the graphic drivers fault), killed off everything but what is needed for vista to run software wise.

This problem does not exist in any way shape or form in XP.

Its really odd too as its no kind of lag I have ever encountered. My current theory is that it is a problem with cpu throttling. It also tends to get more pronounced over time, like with Deathtrack, it will barely be noticable for the first bit, then get more and more noticable untill the game is near unplayable and lurches around like a drunk sailor on land.

[Peto]

Hmm... Not sure how much help I can be since my experience with Vista 64bit is minimal but--could you list your computer specs? I wouldn't be surprised if you're right about it being CPU based. I've been known to squeeze out a fix from time-to-time if I have enough info to work with.

:salute:

[NeonSamurai]

Dell Studio XPS 16 Laptop
Intel Core 2 Duo T9600 @ 2.80GHz, 1066FSB
6GB DDR3 ram, 1066MHz
ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3670, 512mb DDR3
500 GB 7200rpm SATA hard drive

Anyhow doesn't seem to be a throttling problem after all, tried disabling all of it (CPU and GPU) by bios and software. It may be a vista glitch or something.. I'll have to try it with a clean backup and see if that changes anything. That or these games just don't like my blend of hardware and vista 64bit

[Peto]

:hmmm: How about setting your CPU's affinity for the program to only work on one core? (Task Manager>right click process>set affinity). May as well kill some background processes too, as long as you're in there...

I'll think about this one. Problems like this drive me crazy :damn:.

EDIT: What speed is your memory set to? Might it be set too fast for the program to handle? I've run into stranger things...

[NeonSamurai]

I'll have to play with processor affinity some more and see what that does, though these games are new enough were that shouldn't be an issue.

I'm pretty sure its not memory, or the bus speed (or latency), for one thing I can't adjust any of it, also these games don't have the issue in XP. Restricting the memory size to that of XP's didn't fix it either.

Edit: nope not processor affinity, my next two attempts will be to try running it on the pristine install that came from dell, and turning off the page file (don't need it with 6 gigs of ram).

[Peto]

You certainly seem to have a solid handle on trouble-shooting :yep:. I'll check back in here and see how you're doing and try to help if I can...

Hope you get it figured out!!!

[Arclight]

I'm still leaning to driver problem. When you updated all the drivers, did you include DirectX?

Maybe it's the graphics card itself that gets throttled, switching between 2d and 3d modes. Could try using something like Rivatuner to "lock" the clocks and/or monitor them while playing.

[Wolfehunter]

I have some information that may help you.

Since I'm building a supermod I've collect many pieces of data that helps players optimize there rigs better.

Some of these will help XP, Vista and windows 7 users. It doesn't matter which game your playing because it will benefit all games.

NOTE: *some lines maybe repeated...*


JubalHarshaw,

For windows Vista 32 (it should help xp users too) users:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To play SmP on Windows Vista 32 or Windows XP you should have at least 3GB of RAM.

Use lite version of SmP, remove the folders levels and shaders at gamedata folder, download and install gamebooster at http://www.iobit.com/gamebooster.html?Str=download and use it, it's pretty friendly, download also vistabootpro (if you try to download it at http://www.vista4beginners.com/VistaBootPro (http://www.vistabootpro/) you'll have to pay, I suggest you google it cause there are sites where you can legally download it without paying, here is one link http://www.baixaki.com.br/site/dwnld41828.htm , it's in portuguese, but if you click the green button with the white arrow, the download will start), install and run it, choose Advanced Settings, check Physical Adress Extension, click Aplly Settings and reboot the rig. Now your are ready to start playing.

If you don't want to use vistabootpro, the 3GB memory mode can be enabled with the command:

bcdedit /set IncreaseUserVa 3072

and disabled by the command:

bcdedit /deletevalue IncreaseUserVa

Run this command from a command window with Administrator priviledge - i.e. (in the Start menu) type CMD and press Ctrl+Shift+Enter, or select "Command Prompt" (Accessories), right-click on it and choose "Run as Administrator".

Restart your PC after this change."
by Bangalore

Tricks for Vista32/64

I found these instructions (try it at your own risk, and backup your files first!):

I.
No problem with some games and Vista64.

I'm only using this trick:
You need the explorer ( http://www.ntcore.com/exsuite.php )
You open with this explorer the game.exe in the bin folder from stalker.
On the left side you will find "NT Header/File Header". Click on File Header.
On the right side click on "click here".
Now you need to enable "App can handle> 2gb adressest " and to save.
I recommend to backup the game.exe before editing.


II.
"Now comes the additionally part for Vista32:

You have to go to start-program-equipment. Now you have to right click on input-request and start as Administrator.

Equals - "Start --> All Programs --> Accessories --> Run (As Administrator) It's important it says "This task will be created with administrative privileges"
Now enter: bcdedit /set IncreaseUserVA 3072

Simply paste :- bcdedit /set IncreaseUserVA 3072 and click run, you'll see a black screen pop up and disappear again quickly... reboot and you should be set... it's kinda like using the /3GB switch in XP.

After that you have to restart Vista. This is important!

The address area for windows machines is short and this trick only helps applications that are prepared to use more than 2 GB. Like the trick with "App can handle> 2gb adressest". You should only use the trick for exceptional cases."
by Synapt

As for people with 4GB of Memory and Windows XP 32bit, you CAN access all the memory if you have at least Service Pack 2 or preferably Service Pack 3 installed.

What you need to do is the following;

Right click on My Computer -> Properties

Once you have the computer properties box up click the 'Advanced' tab and select the 'Settings' button in the mini Startup and Recovery box (Third 'Settings' button down).

Click the 'Edit' button, you'll get a notecard file up with your bootup settings, if you do not already see this line in there, add it at the END of your main boot line (if you have multiple you should know which to put it after, if you only have one then thats the obvious one);

/noexecute=ALWAYSON

Leading space as well! Afterwards your boot line should look something like this (but likely not exactly);
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\I386="Windows XP" /fastdetect /noexecute=ALWAYSON

What this does is enable the PAE system in XP, which has the capability of routing the 'Extra' memory into what it calls a Physical Address Extension. As far as I've ever been aware its recommended you have a more 'Modern' processor (eg; 2007+) for this, though word is everything back to the old Pentium Pro's actually had support for it (Windows simply didn't until SP2-ish area).

If you want to know more on PAE, you can read the following;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension

Also note if you wish to control PAE on a toggling basis, you can change "ALWAYSON" to "OPTIN" and then you can change it via;

Right click on My Computer -> Properties -> Advanced Tab -> Performance Settings -> Data Execution Protection tab


NOTE: Note that there are SOME softwares that will cause a Memory based BSOD with PAE if you do have memory thats routed into a virtual space like PAE does, though its VERY rare, but I figure I would point it out anyways.

BUT

by JakFrost,

However, PAE is not the solution since after Microsoft released Windows XP SP3 or as early as SP2 (can't remember now) they put in the "/noexecute=optin" option into the boot.ini that activated DEP and also PAE at the same time. I already had PAE enabled and my system was showing 3.25 GB of RAM available with "Physical Address Extensions" in my System Properties, General tab when I did properties on My Computer so PAE could not have been a solution.

However, PAE does not change the 2 GB virtual memory allocation limit to the user mode processes, the /3GB switch does that instead making the split 3 GB / 1 GB instead of 2GB / 2GB.

Also you can check the site below,

http://www.tweakguides.com

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/316739/EN-US/
or
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/server/PAE/PAEmem.mspx

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=11119

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,5155,00.asp

For XP users the principle is the same, see below;
http://www.gsc-game.com/index.php?t=community&s=forums&s_game_type=xr&thm_page=95&thm_id=16752&sec_id=16&page=66

I'm sure there are many other websites that show how to optimize your rig.
Also make sure you have all your drivers and firmware up to date. :salute:

[Arclight]

Not to be negative, but those "tweaks" only have limited potential. Game devs know that by default their game can't use more than 2GB of memory, so even if you increase the max addressable memory space for a game to 3GB, it probably will never use the extra gig anyway. It can however cure BSODs caused by apps exceding the 2GB limit. For example, this is a problem with Supreme Commander with a lot of units in the field.

Same thing with PAE: gaming PCs typically have either 2GB or 4GB; 2x1GB, 4x1GB or 2x2GB (matched pairs for memory). With 2GB total it's a non issue. With 4GB it helps address all installed memory (though, like mentioned, it can lead to compatibility issues), but even without PAE you can use at least 3 of 4GB: 2GB for the game and at least 1GB left for OS. Why mess with it and risk trouble?

It really only serves it's purpose in cases like Supreme Commander:
1. Game crashes because app exceeds it's max space.
2. Use "tweak" so the app can address more space.
3. Now the app can use all 3GB of available memory, "fighting" the OS for that 3rd gig.
4. Use PAE to address all available memory.
5. Now the app can use 3GB while still leaving 1GB for OS.

At least that's how I understand it, I haven't done this stuff in practice yet. :hmmm:

[NeonSamurai]

You certainly seem to have a solid handle on trouble-shooting :yep:. I'll check back in here and see how you're doing and try to help if I can...

Hope you get it figured out!!!

I hope so too. I use to be a professional computer tech (A+, MCSE) and my forte was troubleshooting hardware, but I am a bit out of date. Needless to say this one has me completely stumped, and I have been unable to find anyone else with a similar problem (though perhaps I'm just using the wrong key words).

I'm still leaning to driver problem. When you updated all the drivers, did you include DirectX?

Maybe it's the graphics card itself that gets throttled, switching between 2d and 3d modes. Could try using something like Rivatuner to "lock" the clocks and/or monitor them while playing.

I did not try updating directx 10 as the system came already with sp1 for vista 64, and has the most up to date dx10 version. Also if it was a dx problem I imagine the problem would be happening on most games. Still though I'll investigate that possibility.

Monitoring the graphics card is a good idea, and easy to do with dual monitors (laptop + lcd monitor) so I'll give that a try. I may also try cleaning out all the graphics drivers and installing the latest ones. I had tried disabling power saving mode via CCC (catalyst) but with no effect.

Anyhow I'm fairly positive its not a hardware fault, which means it's either a fault with vista directly, a driver problem, or a combination of the two (or possibly a software fault.

A lot of this is going to have to wait until next weekend though, got midterms this week and assignments, so no time to fiddle around with it till friday.

@Wolfehunter
Thanks for the links, I'll look into it later. :) XP on my system works perfectly fine right now, and I'm running Vista 64 bit which can properly address all the memory my system has. However part 1 of your 'bangalore' quote may be useful.

[Arclight]

You could try installing latest DX9 and running the game in DX9 mode.

DirectX provides a layer between the hardware and driver; since the problem you're reporting is strictly graphical, it's a prime suspect IMO, along with the driver itself.

Good luck on your midterms. :salute:

[Wolfehunter]

Not to be negative, but those "tweaks" only have limited potential. Game devs know that by default their game can't use more than 2GB of memory, so even if you increase the max addressable memory space for a game to 3GB, it probably will never use the extra gig anyway. It can however cure BSODs caused by apps exceding the 2GB limit. For example, this is a problem with Supreme Commander with a lot of units in the field.

Same thing with PAE: gaming PCs typically have either 2GB or 4GB; 2x1GB, 4x1GB or 2x2GB (matched pairs for memory). With 2GB total it's a non issue. With 4GB it helps address all installed memory (though, like mentioned, it can lead to compatibility issues), but even without PAE you can use at least 3 of 4GB: 2GB for the game and at least 1GB left for OS. Why mess with it and risk trouble?

It really only serves it's purpose in cases like Supreme Commander:
1. Game crashes because app exceeds it's max space.
2. Use "tweak" so the app can address more space.
3. Now the app can use all 3GB of available memory, "fighting" the OS for that 3rd gig.
4. Use PAE to address all available memory.
5. Now the app can use 3GB while still leaving 1GB for OS.

At least that's how I understand it, I haven't done this stuff in practice yet. :hmmm:Most of those address switches are for 32 bit.

But there is an issue with vista 64 bit that all programs installed in C:\Program Files (x86) will have only access to 2gig address regardless of the 64bit Os.

64bit software only use the full features of that OS.
I have to find that website. :damn:

Here it is,
http://ntcore.com/4gb_patch.php

[NeonSamurai]

You could try installing latest DX9 and running the game in DX9 mode.

DirectX provides a layer between the hardware and driver; since the problem you're reporting is strictly graphical, it's a prime suspect IMO, along with the driver itself.

Never heard of that before but I'll give it a try. I am still doubtful its a DX problem simply as its only happening with a few games (but perhaps its because they use dx differently then the working games).

One thing I'm not sure about is how do you tell a game which version to use?

[Arclight]

Not sure about that either. All I know is that it's possible to choose DX9 or 10 when starting Crysis. Something like right-click icon> "run in DX9", or perhaps under properties. I have Arma running on Win7 RC, with DX9 installed as well. Now that I think about it, Arma doesn't support DX10 as far as I know. I'd give installing DX9 a shot; it won't mess up DX10, so it's really quick and painless to test.

[NeonSamurai]

Already did try it and no change, but problem is I have no way of knowing if its actually using dx9 that was installed or not (since it can use dx 10 in dx9 emulation mode).

[Arclight]

Don't know about DX10 emulating DX9. AFAIK Vista needs to have DX9/DX9L installed to play non DX10 games. But that point is moot I guess, as it did not fix your problem. :hmmm:

Running out of options, and ideas for that matter. :doh:

[NeonSamurai]

That is actuality incorrect, almost all the games I've run on Vista are dx 9 only. Dx 10 has direct3d 9, 9L and 10 built in, and d3d 9 is set up to act like as if it was xp.

But ya I'm also running out of ideas. My plans now are to do a complete wipe of the display drivers and reinstall them, if that fails I will set up monitoring software and see how the cpu, memory and gpu behave on xp vs vista when playing ArmA and see if there is an issue there which may lead me to further steps, if that fails I will try a clean factory install setup, failing that I'll borrow a copy of vista from a friend to see if it's a Dell vista install issue. I may try a few other things in between those steps.

[Arclight]

I'm glad you have the knowledge to solve it yourself, most people would have just dropped it off at some repair shop. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just feels like a waste of money. :(

Anyway, best of luck. :salute:

[Wolfehunter]

That is actuality incorrect, almost all the games I've run on Vista are dx 9 only. Dx 10 has direct3d 9, 9L and 10 built in, and d3d 9 is set up to act like as if it was xp.

But ya I'm also running out of ideas. My plans now are to do a complete wipe of the display drivers and reinstall them, if that fails I will set up monitoring software and see how the cpu, memory and gpu behave on xp vs vista when playing ArmA and see if there is an issue there which may lead me to further steps, if that fails I will try a clean factory install setup, failing that I'll borrow a copy of vista from a friend to see if it's a Dell vista install issue. I may try a few other things in between those steps.

Why not try this and use windows 7?

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-ca/evalcenter/dd353205.aspx?ITPID=mscomsl

[NeonSamurai]

Hassle mainly, this is a work and gaming laptop, and I don't got a lot of time. Also not sure if vista drivers are compatible or not as there are no windows 7 drivers for this system.

[Arclight]

Vista drivers work fine. Driver model remains unchanged AFAIK. I use Vista drivers for everything: the Win7 ones are absolute and utter crap IMO, I give them a wiiide berth. :yep:

Heck, I installed an older test sytem with XP drivers, still worked fine, though a bit more hassle with compat. stuff.