Goverment Motors and the Chinese

[SteamWake]

Hey lets give the Chinese even more leverage shall we ;)


DETROIT (AP) - As thousands of General Motors workers await word on more U.S. plant closures, reports that the company plans to import Chinese-made vehicles to the U.S. have created a political problem for the automaker and the White House.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090514/D985PEDO0.html

[Schroeder]

I think this is called capitalism. :hmm2:

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Typical.

"I DUN WANT ANY CARS BUT WHAT THE US MAKES :salute:"

Yawn.

[SteamWake]

GM would be the first company to import cars from China although automakers have brought in components in the past to save on labor costs. Most Chinese automakers have been daunted by meeting U.S. safety standards. They also face the uphill battle of winning consumer confidence for unfamiliar brands.


:03:

[August]

Typical.

"I DUN WANT ANY CARS BUT WHAT THE US MAKES :salute:"

Yawn.

Now I didn't see where he said that at all. Why are you goading him? I thought a moderator was supposed to be fair and impartial?

[VipertheSniper]

A moderator can as well post his personal opinion as anyone else on this forum.

[AVGWarhawk]

The point of the article is not that the US should by only American made cars and moderators should be impartial, etc. The article is stating that a company is bailed out with US tax dollars yet the company is looking overseas to purchase and sell cars in the US. In reality, GM should be looking at strenghting what they have and work on efficient vehicles with these tax dollars. Not send the money overseas. I did not read much more into the article than that.

[VipertheSniper]

The point of the article is not that the US should by only American made cars and moderators should be impartial, etc. The article is stating that a company is bailed out with US tax dollars yet the company is looking overseas to purchase and sell cars in the US. In reality, GM should be looking at strenghting what they have and work on efficient vehicles with these tax dollars. Not send the money overseas. I did not read much more into the article than that.

what he said...

[AVGWarhawk]

Typical.

"I DUN WANT ANY CARS BUT WHAT THE US MAKES :salute:"

Yawn.

Oh forgot...Kapt can you send me one of the three:

Rolls Royce
Bentley
Mini Cooper

I would like any one of these British made cars. If I had to pick one I want the Bentley :D

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Oh forgot...Kapt can you send me one of the three:

Rolls Royce
Bentley
Mini Cooper

I would like any one of these British made cars. If I had to pick one I want the Bentley :D

LOL if I could afford to buy one of those to export to you, I'd be living a great life :up:

I thought a moderator was supposed to be fair and impartial?

Yep, when moderating, sure. However, just because I'm a moderator doesnt mean it automatically negates me from commenting on things from my own standpoint.

[AVGWarhawk]

Come on Kapt. I watch Wheeler Dealer and they got a Bentley for 3200 quid(I guess that is the spelling). Some paint and a few new parts she was good as new. So, I do not really need a 2009 model Bentley :D

They are a nice car. I love Rolls also. Man, they are some beauties:up: Just a good all around luxury tank of a car.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Come on Kapt. I watch Wheeler Dealer and they got a Bentley for 3200 quid(I guess that is the spelling). Some paint and a few new parts she was good as new. So, I do not really need a 2009 model Bentley :D

They are a nice car. I love Rolls also. Man, they are some beauties:up: Just a good all around luxury tank of a car.

Nah, go for a Jaguar. More reliable :cool:

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, some of the Jags are sweet. Years ago though the Jag was voted the worst for staying on the road and not in the shop. That was years ago so perhaps the quality is good now. Oh, while you are at it, be me a Range Rover....new or old...does not matter. I like them also. :D

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Yes, some of the Jags are sweet. Years ago though the Jag was voted the worst for staying on the road and not in the shop. That was years ago so perhaps the quality is good now. Oh, while you are at it, be me a Range Rover....new or old...does not matter. I like them also. :D

If you send me a 1959 Caddy, its a deal :salute:

[AVGWarhawk]

If you send me a 1959 Caddy, its a deal :salute:

Yes, the 59. It will be the two door convertible! Personally, 1958 Plymouth Fury is my all time wish. As long as we are dreaming it might as well dream big.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I was thinking the Miller Meteor Ambulance/Hearse. Just to annoy Al Gore :yeah:

[SteamWake]

Woo hooo ! :woot:

Grand prize for the greatest derailment evah ! :yeah:

[Task Force]

Do I feel safe in a car made in china?
HELL NO!!! I dont even trust toys for kids made there mutch less a car. Those cars wouldnt last long, constantly breaking down, not to safty standards.

[A Very Super Market]

Seeing how China isn't filled to the brim with car crashes (Although there are obcene amounts of traffic, naturally) I don't think reliability should be an absolute issue. The factories themselves, however, are not up to safety standards. Also natural, seeing how cheap products is the whole point of having factories in China. Consumers who complain about China having unsafe products should be criticizing themselves for driving industry there in the first place. With the emphasis on profit, the factory owners may excuse lax management, as long as they make more moolah. Everybody's fault, but only one leads to another.

[Platapus]

Do I feel safe in a car made in china?
HELL NO!!! I dont even trust toys for kids made there mutch less a car. Those cars wouldnt last long, constantly breaking down, not to safty standards.

And this would differ from the crap GM has been making in what way???

Remember, if GM could make cares that would last long, not constantly break down, and not have to recall more 1.5 cars because they can catch on fire*, GM would not be in the position they are in now.

* http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE53D31P20090414

[AVGWarhawk]

Woo hooo ! :woot:

Grand prize for the greatest derailment evah ! :yeah:

We are seasoned professionals! Did you expect anything less? :yeah:

[GoldenRivet]

my local GM dealer (well one of them) has contacted me repeatedly because he knows im in the market for a car.

i have explained to him that...

1. Because GM has received bailout money (a subject i feel VERY strongly about)

2. Because GM has shed Pontiac and 21,000 American Jobs (if not more)

3. Because GM's business model has failed so miserably and they have essentially destroyed themselves from within...

UNLESS he can sell me a brand new 2009 model vehicle for $8,000 or less... i will not be purchasing a GM product, not now... nor in the foreseeable future.

GM's company slogan "You didnt want to buy a GM... so we will be taking your money anyway."

burn in hell GM and kiss my ass

[Platapus]

burn in hell GM and kiss my ass


Yeah, but how do you really feel about GM? I am getting mixed signals here.
:D

[SteamWake]

You know the funny thing is that unless the Chinese bring in some super cool, fast, roomy, fuel efficent car well as previously said "we aint gonna buy em".

Now that to me is a sound buisness model :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

I gave up on GM back in 88. :03:

[GoldenRivet]

You know the funny thing is that unless the Chinese bring in some super cool, fast, roomy, fuel efficent car well as previously said "we aint gonna buy em".

Now that to me is a sound buisness model :rotfl:

the only thing thats going to come out of china motors wise is going to be some hunk of crap that is made out of depleted uranium and painted with lead based paints.

i cant begin to imagine.

the only way to reverse the problems in this nation - including the auto industry - is for Americans to wake up and realize that their once great nation has been for sale - one piece at a time - for decades. :stare:

[August]

I gave up on GM back in 88. :03:

You might have given up on them a bit early. I had a '91 Buick Century that went 360,000 miles before I sold it. Not once did it ever fail to get me home.

[Platapus]

You might have given up on them a bit early. I had a '91 Buick Century that went 360,000 miles before I sold it. Not once did it ever fail to get me home.

While that is great :yeah:, what does that prove?

The problem is that any extreme

1) A specific GM product was the greatest car
2) A specific GM product was a lemon

does not really influence the quality of the average GM product.

I am sure that there are people who bought a Yugo and had no problems with it and people who have bought Mercedes and have had nothing but problems.

Does the occurrence of these two extreme cases indicate that Yugo is a great car and the Mercedes is a POS? Of course not.

A random Yugo is probably a POS and random Mercedes is probably a good car. It is all a matter of probabilities.

I think the same logic can be applied to GM products. You may have gotten a great GM car (and I am very happy you did). But if a random GM car were to be selected, what would be the probability that is would be a good car or a lemon?

How consumers perceive the answer to that question is what GM needs to be concerned with. This preception is a matter of trust in the car manufacturer.

My viewpoint? I can't afford to "take a chance" on an American car. I am not rich nor can I afford to have a "hanger queen" as a car.

Any car I buy has a chance of being a great car or a lemon. But what is the probability of either of these occurring?

This is often a subjective decision. Subjectively, I feel my chances of getting a "good" car improves if I buy a foreign model. My history seems to support this.

Domestic cars I have owned and my friends have owned have not been satisfactory. Foreign cars I have owned and my friends have owned have been satisfactory.

When I buy my next car, I could take a chance on a Domestic car and I might get a good car. I could take a chance on a Foreign car and I might get a lemon. But which is more likely?

Buying a domestic car and getting a lemon
Buying a domestic car and getting a good car
Buying a foreign car and getting a lemon
Buying a foreign car and getting a good car

Where does the smart money bet on?

As they say in the Ads "your mileage may vary" :D

[SteamWake]

Hrm... I did a lil searching and found this.

A very good article with an excellent video attached (the bomb drops at @ 4:00 in the vid).

What is most fascinating is the date tag on this article :shifty:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/18/automobiles/autoshow/18CHINA.html

[Tchocky]

Been reading Akerlof, Platapus? :p2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

[Schroeder]

the only thing thats going to come out of china motors wise is going to be some hunk of crap that is made out of depleted uranium and painted with lead based paints.

Nope, actually the have made a decent step forward over their first car. I can't remember the name of these things, but the first they cranked out was a total disaster while the second was already at the level of European and Japanese cars of the mid 90ies (it is using an older Mitsubishi engine btw, so so much for not being reliable). Give them five more years and their cars will be nearly as good as ours, just a lot cheaper (yes, with lots of stolen technology).
Why do you think everyone is making such a fuss about how bad those cars are? Because they all terribly fear the day when they finally produce good cars with cheaper prices. That's why they try to destroy their reputation from the very beginning.


the only way to reverse the problems in this nation - including the auto industry - is for Americans to wake up and realize that their once great nation has been for sale - one piece at a time - for decades. :stare:I think this is called capitalism.;)

[AVGWarhawk]

You might have given up on them a bit early. I had a '91 Buick Century that went 360,000 miles before I sold it. Not once did it ever fail to get me home.

We had nothing but GM from the 50's up to about the mid 80's. We dumped them for poor quality. My last best GM product was a 78 Buick Regal. The 88 Monte Carlo was a pile of warn parts. Straight off the lot it was in the dealers shop the next day. For a new pinion gear. It has less than 50 miles on it. I worked as a mechanic for Goodyear. In my 8 years I would venture to guess 7 out of 10 vehicles I worked on were GM products. Chrysler came in after that followed by Ford. The remaining were Japanese. In the 80's the brain child emission controls engineers were not so good. The computer control devices ran by an onboard ROM computer were awful. Computer control carbs stank the high Heavens. A/C Delco products stink IMO. Only Ford with Motorcraft had some sort of clue on emissions control but even then getting a breakout box and connecting to the ALDL to retrieve trouble codes was difficult. The Japanese idea of computer controls worked much better although when a piece would burn up the cost was much larger than the American made product. After my 88 GM which I dumped back at the dealer with 48000 miles because it was a hunk of crap I purchased a GEO Storm. Took me right up to 100000 miles without a hick-up. I gave this car to my sister-in-law. From then on I have been driving either a Chrysler or Ford product. Both have been excellent vehicles. I will continue to purchase Ford products. My two current have been nothing short of excellent.

[August]

We had nothing but GM from the 50's up to about the mid 80's.

The Century was actually my third Buick. My first, an '81 LeSabre was my favorite of the three. The one I liked the least was my '82 Electra but that was because it was underpowered with only a 6 cylinder engine in it.

[AVGWarhawk]

The Century was actually my third Buick. My first, an '81 LeSabre was my favorite of the three. The one I liked the least was my '82 Electra but that was because it was underpowered with only a 6 cylinder engine in it.

That Electra was part of the downfall, way underpowered V6. The 3.8 Litre were not bad in the mid-sized but the tanks like the Electra forget it. Throw in the emission controls and smother it with a converter. Such a shame too because GM pre 1975 would shoe horn in the biggest blocks they could find. 454,455 right up the 500 cubic inch Caddy motor. Funny though because some of todays V8's get better gas mileage that the Chevy Chevette 4 cylinders of that era.

[August]

That Electra was part of the downfall, way underpowered V6. The 3.8 Litre were not bad in the mid-sized but the tanks like the Electra forget it. Throw in the emission controls and smother it with a converter. Such a shame too because GM pre 1975 would shoe horn in the biggest blocks they could find. 454,455 right up the 500 cubic inch Caddy motor. Funny though because some of todays V8's get better gas mileage that the Chevy Chevette 4 cylinders of that era.


Yeah it felt like the car was always starving for power. I'd have to floor it all the time just to get it up to speed on the highway. I eventually ended up giving the PoS away. A victim of Washingtons ham fisted regulations and Detroits lack of a clue what to do about it.

[AVGWarhawk]

A victim of Washingtons ham fisted regulations and Detroits lack of a clue what to do about it.


In a nutshell, yeppers. The Japanese were on top of the 4 cylinders and working with dual overhead cams and multi-valve heads. They fiddled with turbos. All good motors that lasted. However, American was not totally in the dark. The AMC General 4.0 inline six is just about bullet proof. GM had a long way to go on the 4 cylinders. The Chevy Chevette set up was trash. Just to change the distributor cap required removing the A/C unit. Fantastic engineering! Just a tired motor straight from the factory. Chrysler had a 2.2 which was a great motor and had some power if it was tuned correctly but Chrylser in their infinite wisdom used Carter carb on it and this sucked. And again, the computer controls just sucked. I spent most of my days with a digital Ohm meter trouble shooting these turds. It took some time to catch up to the Japanese quality but in the mean time GM lost a lot of customers.

[GoldenRivet]

I think this is called capitalism.;)

Capitalism is one thing... a major breach in national security is another.

[Tchocky]

Yup, national security is at stake.

[Platapus]

How is national security at stake in this issue?

[GoldenRivet]

look at it this way.

GM imports Chinese vehicles.

and shutters a majority of it's plants here in the United States.

hundreds of thousands of jobs lost.

We get into a shooting war with someone, or into a diplomatic squabble with someone and China doesnt like it?

what do they do?

Embargo auto parts, close US plants which are producing the Chinese vehicles etc.

same reason that foreign nations should not be building our military hardware.

enough of the United States Industry has been whored out to other nations... its ridiculous.

[Schroeder]

GM imports Chinese vehicles.

and shutters a majority of it's plants here in the United States.

hundreds of thousands of jobs lost.

Again, this is capitalism.


We get into a shooting war with someone, or into a diplomatic squabble with someone and China doesnt like it?

what do they do?

Embargo auto parts, close US plants which are producing the Chinese vehicles etc.
Make sure your offer is better and let the market solve the problem.;)


same reason that foreign nations should not be building our military hardware.
Yep, point here. That is why most European countries are now building their own stuff again.


enough of the United States Industry has been whored out to other nations... its ridiculous.See my first comment.

[SS107.9MHz]

"Hate the game, don't hate the players":D

[August]

In a nutshell, yeppers. The Japanese were on top of the 4 cylinders and working with dual overhead cams and multi-valve heads. They fiddled with turbos. All good motors that lasted. However, American was not totally in the dark. The AMC General 4.0 inline six is just about bullet proof. GM had a long way to go on the 4 cylinders. The Chevy Chevette set up was trash. Just to change the distributor cap required removing the A/C unit. Fantastic engineering! Just a tired motor straight from the factory. Chrysler had a 2.2 which was a great motor and had some power if it was tuned correctly but Chrylser in their infinite wisdom used Carter carb on it and this sucked. And again, the computer controls just sucked. I spent most of my days with a digital Ohm meter trouble shooting these turds. It took some time to catch up to the Japanese quality but in the mean time GM lost a lot of customers.

There are few things in life that I hate more than wrenching. God bless you for your ability to do it.

[Platapus]

Embargo auto parts, close US plants which are producing the Chinese vehicles etc..

I don't think any one is suggesting that all of the American car manufactures go away and that the only car manufacturer will be the Chinese.

[CaptainHaplo]

Biggest issue here is that we just bailed out GM - or actually are paying for its bankrupt existence for now - while it takes the money and runs overseas.

In other words, the beef is we just PAID to ship jobs overseas. Thats why its a bad thing.

[Platapus]

Well, I hope this serves as a good lesson for this and future administrations. If the federal government is going to bail out failed businesses, then the federal government needs to have the right to have some control over how the tax dollars will be spent and how the bailed-out-failed-company will operate.

The days of trusting corporations with tax bailout dollars is far past. :nope:

[CaptainHaplo]

Platypus - the lesson here is the government shouldnt be bailing out businesses anyway.

Either way the jobs would be gone, but had we just let GM fail - we wouldn't also be out of the Billions of taxpayers dollars.

[Platapus]

Platypus - the lesson here is the government shouldnt be bailing out businesses anyway.

Either way the jobs would be gone, but had we just let GM fail - we wouldn't also be out of the Billions of taxpayers dollars.


Oh I agree.

And we, as a nation, should never find our selves in a position where a corporation becomes so important that it can't be allowed to fail.

For then our nation is being extorted.

[GoldenRivet]

Platypus - the lesson here is the government shouldnt be bailing out businesses anyway.

Either way the jobs would be gone, but had we just let GM fail - we wouldn't also be out of the Billions of taxpayers dollars.

EXACTLY MY POINT

capitalism / communism debate aside...

thousands of jobless families living on the street aside

right and wrong aside

we should NOT be bailing these companies out - thats socialism