Neo-Nazis screaming 'Heil Hitler' attack concentration camp survivors during memorial

[HunterICX]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1180599/Neo-Nazis-attack-concentration-camp-survivors-memorial-service-345-000-dead.html

:shifty: Nothing new, Nothing unexpected....but still its just such a low act by these low life cowardly trash.

Update: some have been caught:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gfYzwZ2f1pHdtAvnYFMmbzuXm1nwD984RH9O4

Police official Alois Lissl confirmed the arrests Tuesday. Five youths aged 14 and 16 have confessed to the shootings and to shouting "Heil Hitler" at an Italian group.HunterICX

[Schroeder]

That is disgusting.:down:
14-16 year olds? They should get their arses kicked until they spit out their underpants!

[Skybird]

Hasn't somebody just recently asked me why we show shock-movies about the KZs at school even at the age of 12?

How much acid poison must have been injected into a human's mind to make him behave like this, turning him so violent, and shaming himself. A screaming chimp has more graze and noblesse, than any of these pseudo-humans.

I have since long been of the conviction that people (and ideologies) not accepting the constitutional order and basic human rights, but rejecting them and calling for violating them, by that have given up any legal claim to demand to benefit from these legal codes if it is of opportunistic use and advantage for them. That'S why I do not understand the incredible ammount of legal protection and respect we pay to them. Where you claim rights, you also have to accept duties. IMO Neonazis should be beaten up and locked away on sight. This humanistic talking about setting examples against them and proving in discussion and debate how wrong it is - in the past 15 years has only caused Fashism rising in Germany, and europe, and silently agreeing acceptance for right winged groups in Germany constantly growing. It seems the discuss-and convince-thing does not work well. While all this civilised well-meaning behavior of ours is being practiced, Nazi recruiters patrol school backyards, distribute cleverly hidden propaganda material and Nazi-Rock-CDs, and infest more and more of children's and juveniles mind with their pest. While we are talking, we will to sacrifice more and more of our children. We could as well legalise drug dealers selling drugs at the school gates - and legalise it in the name of equal business chances for all, free enterprise and non-discrimination of drug-addicts.

[Tchocky]

People who don't respect the rule of law should be beaten up and locked up on sight.

It's hard to tell who's the fascist there, dude.

Isn't the point of a "human right" that it is inalienable?

[SteamWake]

Saw this yesterday and decided not to comment on it.

So much noise from so few people.

Dont give them the press they crave.

When you get right down to it thats the root of the problem "Hey look at me I'm bizzare" ! :doh:

[Skybird]

People who don't respect the rule of law should be beaten up and locked up on sight.

It's hard to tell who's the fascist there, dude.

Isn't the point of a "human right" that it is inalienable?

Sorry, but robbing jewels from an appartement and demanding genocide, or the state being overthrown and democratic basic order replaced with fashist tyranny, are not really ranking on the same level of crime severity, at least not in my book. Where you demand the constitutional order being destroyed, you have no right anymore to demand to be protected and respected by this constitutional order. where you reject human rights to others, you have no right to demand the very same human rights being given to you.

Very simple, I think.

[Tchocky]

Skybird, human rights aren't "given" to anyone.

Sorry, but robbing jewels from an appartement and demanding genocide or the state being overthorwn and democratic baisc order replaced with fahsist tyranny are not realyl ranking on the same level of crime seriousness, at least not in my book.
That's got nothing to do with it., really.

You are saying, in essence, that all due process of law should be removed for criminals of a certain ideology.

Where you demand the constituional order beinf destroyed, you have no right anymore to demand to be protected and respected by this constitutional order.
I don't demand protection under the Irish Constitution, I have it by virtue of my citizenship.
The fact that I disagree with many parts of the Constitution doesn't make it not applicable to me anymore.

I can't decide that the speeding limit doesn't apply to me because I disagree with it, can I?

[Skybird]

Speeding limits and wanting to destroy a state, culture, civilisation, is not the same in severity. Fashists are not just criminals. They are by ideology enemies of the state/nation/constitutional order that they want to destroy. they do not want to ignore or break laws - they want to destroy law itself.

Where you deny constitutional rights or human rights to others, you have no claim to demand their benefit for yourself. You may tolerate even those who do not have the smallest tolerance for you. whether that is wise, is something different.

It is a bit like with nuclear deterrance. You know the other will not use his nukes against you as long as you do not use your own nukes or put that much pressure on him that he feels so vitally threatened that he thinks he must fight you off by using nukes. You want to avoid being nuked, so do not try to nuke him.

You want human rights for yourself, and being protected by that iven constitution: then you have to stand up for human rights, and you have to defend that constitution. where you take either the one or the other away from others, you have no claim anymore why their benefit should be given to you.

Assassinating Hitler in 1936, surely would be rated as a crime, by law's meaning. However, imagine how much it would have saved mankind. Instead, one was sticking to play by the rules while Hitler already had left rules behind, and planned the detsruction/Nazification of the state.

If you behave like cattle, do not complain if predators think of you in terms of prey.

[Skybird]

I like that last sentence of mine. Think i make it my new sig. :O:

And now up and away to the cinema. Friends decided yesterday to torture me by watching Star Trek. :shifty:

[Tchocky]

Point again - human rights are not demanded or given, they are innate and inalienable. The very phrase "human rights" means that as human, you are entitled to them.

Where you deny constitutional rights or human rights to others, you have no claim to demand their benefit for yourself. So we can torture, starve and disfigure murderers?
They have denied human rights to others, after all. You may find yourself with interesting company with this belief.

Read the first couple of articles of the German Constitution. Article 3.1 works nicely,

(1) All persons shall be equal before the law.


EDIT - Enjoy the movie :)

[Letum]

Skybird:

If we take human rights away from people who reject or violate them, then
we, ourselves, are rejecting and violating these rights; for which the only
qualification is humanity.

[Biggles]

Skybird:

If we take human rights away from people who reject or violate them, then
we, ourselves, are rejecting and violating these rights; for which the only
qualification is humanity.

Unfortunately, you're right, and this will one day become the end of democracy as we see it.


Regarding the story...preposterous. Absolutely disgusting.

[Jimbuna]

A truly cowardly and despicable act.

Maintain their rights.....to a fair hearing then suitable justice.

[Biggles]

A truly cowardly and despicable act.

Maintain their rights.....to a fair hearing then suitable justice.

You have the right to remain silent...please use it!:O: (Directed at them, not you, 'course.)

[Skybird]

Human rights have no obligation whatever to tolerate those trying to destroy them. That's where they would turn seriously pathologic, and suicidal.

The question whether or not human rights are given to a man since birth, is of achademical interst only. The point is that if you behave not like a human, but a barbar, a bloodthirsty thug, an enemy to man, you lose them. You are human not by form of your body and the number of legs and arms, but in a special (nopt arbitrary) cultural context, and we talk about cultural context, because for biology and nature and evolution human rights do not matter, and are non-existent. It is our minds and ability to reflect upon ourselves, as well as our intellect, that separates us from animals. In a cultural context, when you behave not like a human, why should human rights be used on you? No dog is given human rights. especially not if it carries rabbies, or is no dog but a beast thirsty for blood.

If you reject these human rights to others, and try to destroy them, now that is a possible definition to decide where somebody has set himself so far outside of that cultural context, that he is no longer part of that context. He has left that cultural context, and thus has left civilisation behind. Until not so long time ago, people like that have been called "barbars", to make clear they were no members of that cultural context as expressed in form of a society, a nation, an empire, a civilisation - or a coexisting arrangement of several of these, when coexistence was possible between these entities, evemtually, when they shared sufficient similiar values and understandings of "human rights".

Fashism and Neonazism is growing again throughout the west. And this after that beast of a history with it. The methods that have been used to prevent that, obviously fail, and no candle lighs in the street and no silent rememberance in front of monuments and now poltical propaganda is changing that, it seems. So try something different, I suggest. They play tough on you, so start playing tough on them. The hardcore types amongst them are not to be impressed with your self-declared civilisational superiority and will hate you the more the more time passes by. The "Mitläufer" to some degree maybe you can save, when shopwing them early where it leads if they follow that road. Stop arguing about them - give them a taste of what they are are demanding to do with others.

And try to figure out for yourself why you are so obsessed with toleratin those who do not have the slightest tolerance for you in return. The shining brightness of your culture obviously is not what is determining their actions and thoughts.

All this what I say, is valid regarding Fashism. But as I often said before, it is as valid regarding any other attempts or ideologies or socalled religions that want to destroy us: our culture, our constitutional order of our soceites, and your precious human rights. As far as I see it, you simply refuse to defend the human rights you are so proud of, if the force needed to acchieve that is so huge that you must question your conviction that human rights are universal and valid even for those spitting on them and not being human in the understanding I outlined above.

I agree, it is a narrow, dangerous path to walk on. But as I see it, our civilisation is in a phase of total deconstruction. And you can ask yourself what will become of human rights if Nazis, Islam or Scientology manage to run our world again. Maybe you think that risk is part of holding up human rights. But that kind of fatalism is not for me, except on blue days when I am feeling down and out anyway.

Which as a matter of fact sets me aside from this culture as well. And indeed I often got (and get) called a Nazi, a xyz-phobic, an inhumane who-knows-what. Last but not least in the past of this forum, too. But I never have hidden that I consider myself to be non-civilised indeed. The decisive question is whether or not I see this culture/civilisation/constitution in need to be overthrown and destroyed, or if I see enough of vlaue in it that I give up on the differences and consider it worth to be defended nevertheless. Actually, the latter is the case.

And ironically, this is what makes me an outcast from this civilisartion that is both unable and unwilling to defend itself.

It seems to me that there is some basic problem with the Western self-understanding, that wills to get damaged and destroyed if it cannot prevent that without limiting the universal claim of this it's self-understanding. Maybe because we expect to live in a paradise of reason and peacefulness, where no demons exist. But they are there, and they do not care for our fantasies of a garden Eden. the tragic truth is: it needs just one player who does not accept the rules of the game mankind plays - and he can spoil the match for all others by that. And declaring these rules "universal", does not change that a bit. As long as he is not - if needed: violantly - removed from the table, the match is over.

Maybe that is not said in human rights. But it is true. And if something is so incomplete then, how can it claim to be universal, then?

Absolutes - as stated by man. Good joke.

P.S. Don't split hairs. Try to get the essence that - maybe uncompletely - I try to express.

[Letum]

In what way is Western Civilization "unable and unwilling to defend itself"?

It seams to have been excelling in both it's preservation, refinement and
propagation for the last ~1700 years.

[Dimitrius07]

My English is not that good but i will try to do my best.

2 Skybird

IMO Neonazis should be beaten up and locked away on sight.


I think psyhological help (instead of beating) will do for starters, but that is my opinion, i agree with the rest you wrote sir ;).

2 HunterICX
low act by these low life cowardly trash.

I will rather say: "act of a poisoning mind, wich leads to stupidity".
I personaly faced with thise sort of cr"p when i was a kid so i`am not suprised. Antisemitism is a same old story, a sad story.

That all i watned to say :salute:. Take care ;)

[Schroeder]

In what way is Western Civilization "unable and unwilling to defend itself"?

It seams to have been excelling in both it's preservation, refinement and
propagation for the last ~1700 years.
Does it? I think we have been in a steep decline for the last 30 years. I think I even remember a country that has introduced the Sharia into it's legal system.... :hmm2:

We are allowing everyone to take a shot at us just for political correctness.

[Skybird]

In what way is Western Civilization "unable and unwilling to defend itself"?

It seams to have been excelling in both it's preservation, refinement and
propagation for the last ~1700 years.

And it has declined, and enthusiastically embraced what wishes to destroy it in just the past 17 years or so.

Actually it may be not 17 but a few couple of years more, but the point is so nice to make when you talked of 1700 years. :O:

[Skybird]

2 Skybird


I think psyhological help (instead of beating) will do for starters, but that is my opinion, i agree with the rest you wrote sir ;).



I have been a psychologist, so I reserve the right to disagree for professional reasons. :D Political radicals and religious zealots cannot be reached by psychotherapy, or reasonable argument. It's a waste of time. Thats why such people are called radicals and zealots. They are imune to reason and argument.

Anyhow, let's do not get too obsessed with the loose wording of mine back then. I think everybody knows quite clearly at what direction I was aiming.

[Letum]

And it has declined, and enthusiastically embraced what wishes to destroy it in just the past 17 years or so.

Declined my bum.
People of conservative natures have been saying such things since the dawn
of time. For some the golden age is in the past and the dystopia in the future
what ever age they live in.

Western civilization has practically been defined by it's assimilation of anything
and everything. There have been times when practically all countries that
had adopted western civilization have been destroyed, but still the idea
survives.
It is no utopia, but has never been in better shape.

[Skybird]

Due to my well-known criticism of failed integration policy, failed policy of multiculturalism , spreading Islam, and the EU in it's many implications, you are not surprised that I could not disagree more. I do not see the West assimilating anymore. I see it being dissolved, rejecting any own identity based on history (which often gets rewritten or simply ignored and forgotten), rotting from within, perverting it's former positve ideals into hurtful extremes, hijacking accepted labels for content of exactly the opposite meaning, and falling prey to foreign conquesting culture.

Sunset in the West.

[bookworm_020]

To get back to the thread topic....

The idiots that did that deserve to be hung out to rot. The fact the may not belive that something happened doesn't give them the right to terrorize others.:stare:

[Tribesman]

I see it being dissolved, rejecting any own identity based on history (which often gets rewritten or simply ignored and forgotten), rotting from within, perverting it's former positve ideals into hurtful extremes, hijacking accepted labels for content of exactly the opposite meaning, and falling prey to foreign conquesting culture.

Did you just quote uncle adolf from one of his rallies ?

[Schroeder]

Did you just quote uncle adolf from one of his rallies ?
No, I think he is just observing his environment here in Germany.:shifty:

[Skybird]

Did you just quote uncle adolf from one of his rallies ?
Never having met your family, I honestly can say: No.

[Freiwillige]

@Skybird :I think that they prabably saw the same shock\holocaust movies as the rest of the German youth get shoved down there throats being they were Austrians and Austria has the same sick policy.

You also say "Fashists are not just criminals. They are by ideology enemies of the state/nation/constitutional order that they want to destroy. they do not want to ignore or break laws - they want to destroy law itself." But didnt the Nazi's say the same thing about the other side example,

"Communists\capitalism are not just criminals. They are by ideology enemies of the state/nationional order that they want to destroy. They do not want to ignore or break laws - They want to destroy law itself."

I think its the parents fault for their childrens failings. Its not up to some book, movie, song to teach the youth right from wrong. Its in the family structure that they are taught the rules of society. With family values eroding its no suprise kids are becoming Anarchists, Nazi's, Communists, Drug abusers etc.

[Tribesman]

Sorry old boy but there are no Austrian ex corporals in my family .
Might I suggest that you look closer to home ?

[Skybird]

Nice try to twist what I said, but I think the Nazis did not depend on the modern German constitution (that happens to celebrate it's 60th birthday next week, btw.). So their defiinition of what threatens the state must have been different than mine, for "state" had a different meaning for them than for me, and most people today. One could even say that there idea of dstate and our idea of state are almost mutually exclusive.

I would love to threaten and destroy the state of the Nazis. I try to defend and raise the state of the past 60 years that came after them, and it's form of how it was meant to be by its founders after WWII.

However I agree that capitalism is destructive to any national and state-liike order - if it is allowed to run completerly ungoverned and unmonitored and fully liberal in understanding. Capitalism in its pure form is the ultimate form of egoism, but a community depends on a minimum of altruistic mindset of it'S members, else the idea of "comunity" is impossible to realise. Also, Capitalism, is a completly material ideology not caring for any non-material values like morals, ethics, and philosphical ideas and values. Materialism simply denies that these things exist or should be payed attention to, since they have no material(istic) correlate (money, for example).

Communism to me is as materialistic an ideology as is capitalism. So in principle, the same criticism fits. This is what Marx has not realised, although he was a very sharp-minded observer of capitalism. His observations are worth to be remembered. Just the conclusions on communism he drew from them are wrong. I personally am conviocned that with humans, truly communistic spocieties will never work if they exceed a certain, relatively small size, that maybe is even smaller than the critical size a community must not exceed for being able to maintain a truly functional democratic system.

Too huge societies always seem to lead into more or less hidden feudal structures and absolutistic forms of controlling them. The modern West in my percepetion already is more feudal/absolutistic/oligarchic than democratic/liberal/free.

[Skybird]

[QUOTENever having met your family, I honestly can say: No. ]
Sorry old boy but there are no Austrian ex corporals in my family .
Might I suggest that you look closer to home ?
Might I suggest you simply sit in your sandbox and pick your nose and collect you boogers in silence instead of throwing them at others? Running around and calling others you do not like as Nazis, does not say much about them, but all the more about yourself. ;)

[OneToughHerring]

I hope there won't be more of this neo-nazi crap with the 65th anniversaries of the liberations of the camps and other WW 2 events coming up.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

No, I think he is just observing his environment here in Germany.:shifty:

I dont believe its just Germany experiencing such a thing, either.

[Tribesman]

[QUOTE][Might I suggest you simply sit in your sandbox and pick your nose and collect you boogers in silence instead of throwing them at others? Running around and calling others you do not like as Nazis, does not say much about them, but all the more about yourself/QUOTE]
Thats funny , the 4th post in the topic made the comparrison to your rant about removing rights from people .
That must say somehing about what you wrote eh .
A simple test for you skybird , take your statement and replace the ideolgical, politcal , socal , religious or whatever group in the rant you are making , replace it with Jews and see if you sound like one of uncle adolfs little helpers .
If the jackboot fits then wear it .:down:

[Skybird]

Every terrier is a dog.

And therefore, according to you, every dog is a terrier.

If you cannot see the difference between the modern German constitution, and the fascist idea of a society, then nobody can help you, and nobody will take you serious, and talking with oyu makes no sense and is useless anyhow. You could as well mistake the Ku-Klux-Klan's ideas with the declaration of human rights.

[Platapus]

I am all for freedom of expression. It does not matter whether I agree or disagree with their position.

However, then it morphs in to acts of violence, that's where the line has to be drawn.

Shout what they want to shout. But as soon as some of these people started to make violent attacks, it stopped being an expression of viewpoint and is now a criminal act.

[Tribesman]

You could as well mistake the Ku-Klux-Klan's ideas with the declaration of human rights.
Lets see , the knights website ...muticulturalism , politicians selling out the people to minorities , criminals being pandered to , bloody foriegners , desruction of the cherished history , pseudo humans and gibbering monkeys..it goes on and on .
Sorry Skybird but you are wrong , I couldn't mistake the Klans ideas with the declaration of human rights , but I could certainly mistake them with your rants.