underwater mines approaching scapa

[applesthecat]

Just a note, I am currently trying to get into scapa flow from the west. I am hugging the coast. So far, so good. However, in external view, I noticed several submerged tethered mines that I just managed to avoid by luck. These were just northwest of Stromness in 12 meters of water.

What a shock to see this big round pointy ball right on my screen.

For all you hardcore guys who don't use external view. This is some of the fun you are missing.

[Jimbuna]

It is never a good experience to see death approaching http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/c_jane24/Smileys/4_6_100.gif

[Paul Riley]

Are mines just featured in GWX? I am sure they arent in the stock game :hmmm:
I think I made one foray into scapa flow,and that was back in 1939 hehe

[applesthecat]

Paul, I'm running stock and those mines were quite a shock. Hey, that rhymes.

[Bronzewing]

I run stock and have gotten into scapa more than once. Those mines are not there in 1939, but appear from spring 1940 onwards.

[Paul Riley]

Nice,I think I may take time off for some sight seeing some day in scapa :D
applesthecat,you ought to be a poet,funny ryhme :rotfl:

[Bent Periscope]

So if you are playing without external view, is there any way to tell if you are in a mine field or near a mine other than through an explosion?
BP

[Paul Riley]

I've never experienced mines yet,but I reckon there is one certain way to tell you are in a minefield,when the game stops and your UBoat has just disappeared from the sea :shucks::O:
Sorry mate,just in a joking mood at the moment.
I think just being very cautious and slow in such areas is the only sensible defence.What else can you do?,when you realise you are in a minefield :o
I wonder if modern subs employ an EMP device to knock out/detonate nearby mines?

[Bent Periscope]

Has anyone ever bumped a mine but not set it off? I'm wondering if there is a certain speed to be maintained in those areas?

Again, if you don't have external view, how do you know you are in a mine field prior to a detonation?

BP

[Paul Riley]

I don't want to sound patronizing,but you could use the observation scope when in areas you suspect may be a minefield?,and make sure you keep it very low,in order not to catch the mines going over the top.
Wish I could help more,but I have no exp with mines ;)

[Paul Riley]

You may be right also,speed could be a factor,the slower the better...maybe :hmmm:

[Bent Periscope]

Paul,
Your answers sound very reasonable:up:, I'll try them if I get lost or have to cross a mine field.
Now, how do you recommend I attack a convoy with 8 destroyer escorts while not being detected?:ping:
Thanks,
BP

[Paul Riley]

Personally? I would probably not attack it,that is a very well defended convoy,perfectly capable of annihilating a UBoat in a millisecond.However...and I stress however,it all depends on the player's skill and level of courage.I am a more cautious player that likes to work out carefully my chances.
Don't forget,some of the greatest generals knew when to retreat.
Just a thought,if you are adamant to engage this convoy,how about setting off Bold decoys away from your position,in order to try and pull away some of that muscle from the convoy?
Really though,i'd leave it,extremely hazardous to pull off :o

[karamazovnew]

On the east coast of Britain I run into lots of minefields. They're usually in water deeper than 50m. I've seen most at 20m deep but also some as deep as 50-60 m. They made me change my tactic when dealing with convoys. I run as little as I can underwater and dive only when I must. However this raised a morality issue. Did the real skippers look through the periscope underwater to dodge mines and sub nets, or to see how far they are from the sea floor? Or even to dodge that pesky DD? Sure, at night that's impossible to do but during daylight, the water seems to be too clear. Didn't they have a maximum depth at which they could raise the perisope without the lens cracking from the pressure?

[Leandros]

Sure, at night that's impossible to do but during daylight, the water seems to be too clear. Didn't they have a maximum depth at which they could raise the perisope without the lens cracking from the pressure?
This is of interest to know. Does anybody know...? I have run into mines on the East coast in the early war. They are obviously contact mines - not magnetic since they are not going off when passing them. They are also positioned such that when on PD you shall just pass over them.

On several occasions when leaving Bergen in the late war I have been mined. These were obviously magnetic. When following in the track of the VP-boat out the fjord I was never mined.

[Jimbuna]

The British did lay a large minefield (as well as among other areas) almost the entire length of the east coast.

The North Sea has very dark water, therefore in RL raising the periscope whilst submerged would allow you to see perhaps a few feet beyond the bow of your sub.

Anything else IMO is simply unrealistic.

[_Seth_]

The British did lay a large minefield (as well as among other areas) almost the entire length of the east coast.

The North Sea has very dark water, therefore in RL raising the periscope whilst submerged would allow you to see perhaps a few feet beyond the bow of your sub.

Anything else IMO is simply unrealistic.

Jim, do you know if it's possible to get a map over the allied minefields of WWII around the islands (GB, Ireland, Orkney & Shetlands) ?
I suppose that the Germans in addition dropped mines from aircrafts around the allied harbours, to destroy allied shipping. But these mines could do damage to a german sub aswell, could'nt it?

[Platapus]

O Didn't they have a maximum depth at which they could raise the perisope without the lens cracking from the pressure?

To prevent lens cracking, I don't think so. In looking at the schematics of the Type VII, the objective lens (end that sticks out of the water) is always exposed to the pressure that is exerted by the depth of the submarine.

Even when it is fully retracted, the objective end is in a protective sheath but still exposed to the water and its pressure. This means that the periscope lens was designed to withstand the pressures that the submarine was designed to withstand.

However, that does not mean that the periscope could be extended at any depth. It is not the lens cracking that would be worrisome but the seals leaking. When the periscope is fully retracted, a special heavy-duty seal is engaged to help protect the smaller seals. When extending the periscope at depth, the many small seals may be subject to a pressure they were not designed for.

So from a seal integrity standpoint, I am sure there was a maximum depth in which the periscope could be safely extended. But not one for the lens cracking.

In looking at the design of the periscopes, I would imagine the submarine would crack before the lens would crack. :)

As for being able to see underwater through the periscope, that would be dependent on the light available. One could see much better looking up through the water against the light background of the sky (during day of course) than one could see looking in front where the background is banal.

At depths of about 30 meters, it gets pretty dark/murky at times. I seriously doubt you could see a tethered mine far enough to be able to take evasive action.

Now if you were on the side of the good guys (Americans) you might have had access to the OL and OLA special purpose sonars which were designed to find underwater objects such as mines.

[Leandros]

To prevent lens cracking, I don't think so. In looking at the schematics of the Type VII, the objective lens (end that sticks out of the water) is always exposed to the pressure that is exerted by the depth of the submarine.

Even when it is fully retracted, the objective end is in a protective sheath but still exposed to the water and its pressure. This means that the periscope lens was designed to withstand the pressures that the submarine was designed to withstand.

However, that does not mean that the periscope could be extended at any depth. It is not the lens cracking that would be worrisome but the seals leaking. When the periscope is fully retracted, a special heavy-duty seal is engaged to help protect the smaller seals. When extending the periscope at depth, the many small seals may be subject to a pressure they were not designed for.

So from a seal integrity standpoint, I am sure there was a maximum depth in which the periscope could be safely extended. But not one for the lens cracking.

In looking at the design of the periscopes, I would imagine the submarine would crack before the lens would crack. :)

As for being able to see underwater through the periscope, that would be dependent on the light available. One could see much better looking up through the water against the light background of the sky (during day of course) than one could see looking in front where the background is banal.

At depths of about 30 meters, it gets pretty dark/murky at times. I seriously doubt you could see a tethered mine far enough to be able to take evasive action.

Now if you were on the side of the good guys (Americans) you might have had access to the OL and OLA special purpose sonars which were designed to find underwater objects such as mines.
Good info!

[Jimbuna]

Jim, do you know if it's possible to get a map over the allied minefields of WWII around the islands (GB, Ireland, Orkney & Shetlands) ?
I suppose that the Germans in addition dropped mines from aircrafts around the allied harbours, to destroy allied shipping. But these mines could do damage to a german sub aswell, could'nt it?

I've a few sets of Admiralty Mine Charts but they are of the south, south east and east coasts.

They may also be copyrighted :hmmm:....I'm not entirely sure :oops:

The Germand did indeed drop mines from aircraft, but mainly from subs and Schnellbootes and U-boats, but nothing like in the numbers the Allies did.

[_Seth_]

I've a few sets of Admiralty Mine Charts but they are of the south, south east and east coasts.

They may also be copyrighted :hmmm:....I'm not entirely sure :oops:

The Germand did indeed drop mines from aircraft, but mainly from subs and Schnellbootes and U-boats, but nothing like in the numbers the Allies did.
Thanx for the info, matey:salute: Btw; is the minefields in GWX historical accurate? maybe someone could make a map over those minefields. Doesnt need to be 100% accurate, but it could say "possible minefield" or something, with some schratched out area.. :yeah:

[danlisa]

I've a few sets of Admiralty Mine Charts but they are of the south, south east and east coasts.

They may also be copyrighted :hmmm:....I'm not entirely sure :oops:

If they are from who I think they are ;), then yes they are. They are also still MOD property, so we don't have them do we?:arrgh!:
@ Seth

Sure, people can make a map of minefields. Just open up the SCR layer in the mission editor and you'll see them.

[Jimbuna]

Give me a date (year and month) and area and I'll take a screenshot if you want http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Jimbuna]

Faroes minefields

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4270/faroesminefields.jpg (http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=faroesminefields.jpg)

Scapa Flow minefields

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/9013/scapaflowminefields.jpg (http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scapaflowminefields.jpg)

[meduza]

:o
I passed south of Faroes many times, blissfully unaware of that minefield. I think I'll go north the next time. :DL

[Jimbuna]

Best to be on the surface, but that in itself brings it's own risks.

[DaveU186]

Never knew about those ones either. :shifty:

:o

[_Seth_]

Thnx, Jim & Dan...Appreciated! :yep::up:
As you probably have guessed, i've had some....lets say..really close encounters with some of those minefields..:damn:.. But nowing their exact location will be too "boring", if you catch my drift. Would be cool to have something like "possible minefield in area", just to keep you on your toes.. :sunny:

[Platapus]

Never knew about those ones either. :shifty:

:o

Speaking for myself, Ignorance is bliss. I kinda wish I had not seen that map. I *used* to travel that area with no concerns.
Great, more stress, just what a Kaluen needs. :o

[Task Force]

I have seen some mines when doing my channel crossings. Also during harbor raids... 2 word... Stay away.:yep: Sub nets are nasty too.

(like I said jim... you zee nuthing. *with funny schultz voice)

[Jimbuna]

1 word... Stay away


Your mom wants to be having a word with your maths teacher :hmmm:

[Task Force]

Your mom wants to be having a word with your maths teacher :hmmm:

You zeen nuthing.:stare:

[Jimbuna]

You zeen nuthing.:stare:

But I do know "Stay away" = two words :DL

:O:

[Sea Hawk]

Again, if you don't have external view, how do you know you are in a mine field prior to a detonation?

BP

If you were an Oil Shake you could try sending one of your wives in front in a midget sub.:rotfl: