Surface Attack?

[Folducker]

I have never been successful trying to attack a convoy on the surface at night. I always get spotted and sunk immediately, no matter what speed or how I approach.

I usually go to 300 feet, silent running in front of the convoy. If I time it just right, I make it to periscope depth between two lines of ships. I can not do this with the periscope raised as raising the periscope gets me spotted immediately, even on the blackest of nights. I know that historically, it's almost impossible to spot a scope at night, (Or during the day for that matter) So what gives? Is this a game bug or am I doing something wrong?
Thanks

[irish1958]

Same here. I thought I was just inept!
BDU fired me for loosing so many U-boats, so I thought I would try over here.

[aanker]

This post by Hitman may help as a guide to editing sim.cfg to your liking - but it is a fine balance; it is no fun if the AI is stupid:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1064392&postcount=18

Anyway, Happy Hunting!

Art

[Armistead]

I run TMO1.7 as hard as it gets and can make attacks, although I agree they spot you way early, beyond reality.

The best thing I've found is to have tracking done. My last look will be at around 2000 yards from the nearest DD, running silent at 1/2 knot. Then I will go to 100 ft and fire when the TDC shows the proper angle. After that I will usually go up and try and fire another salvo while they're in range.

If further than 1000 yards I will shoot a spread of three, first towards aft, middle, then bow. I reverse that with merchants, just what works for me because of the turbo speed of the ships.

Surface attacks, best I can do is decks awash at 3000 yards, 1 kt, narrow profile.

[rditto48801]

Wow, I thought I had it bad with stock.

I once was cruising near Wake, 1/3 speed in the middle of the night with intent to dive and silent run to look for any moored/anchored ships, just to get attacked without warning. Nothing was seen, nothing on hydrophone, and 'boom', something damaged the sub.
I used the external camera, and saw a splash near the rear of the sub, then a 'streak' of a low angle 'shot' that directly hit the conning tower. The only hint of an actual attacker was a feint 'flash' in the distance. As far as I could tell, a shore battery had spotted my black painted sub... 6-7nm away, in the middle of the night...

As for surface attacks...
There are a few things I try to do or not do.
I will not surface if there is at least one escort nearby, even a small destroyer escort is likely to win out in a slugging match with a sub.
Similar goes for if the merchant ships are apparently armed with cannons, as a sub with holes might master the diving ability and loose the surface ability if the sub goes to deep.
In such cases, I prefer to make an attempt to torpedo any 'well armed' ships first, even a small merchant ship with an apparent deck gun will be a higher priority than a big fat yet unarmed tanker, as removing opposition is very useful if a surface attack is going to be done.

When it comes to sinking ships with a deck gun, I have two things I usually do.
I will use HE shells, aimed as close to the water line as possible, spreading them out over the hull. The idea behind this is many ships can likely stay afloat with one or two compartments flooded, but if they have to many compartments flooding, it's a different matter.
I will use AP shells, generally a half dozen to a dozen, aimed at the hull in general below the stack(s), with intent to attempt to damage their engines. Bigger ships usually have quite a bit more shells needed to be put into them.
If there are two or more ships, a slow or dead in the water target can suddenly be marked off on the map and left behind as I can chase down faster ships, and know the wounded ship won't get as far (or go nowhere at all), making it easy(er) to track them down and sink them afterwards.
I have never really tried shooting at the rear of a ship where the props and rudder are at, except one time I was stuck staring at the rear of a fleeing ship, but I suppose it could be another valid tactic in impairing a ship.

I have no clue if SH4 even takes such factors as flooding in different compartments into consideration when tracking damage, but I do it anyways.

Patience also helps, after putting quite a few holes in a ship, ceasing fire and 'observing' the target for a while, looking for signs of them listing or starting to run deep in the water, and making sure to keep a safe distance, as even a smaller merchant ship can probably do some nasty things to a sub in a collision. If aircraft or a warship is detected/spotted, I immediately dive, as I feel it is better to live and leave a target crippled, than to die a hero in battle.

I will sometimes just put the deck gun on automatic when engaging an unarmed ship on the surface, especially when dealing with a larger ship, then use my AA gun to pepper the bridge area with gun fire, sometimes firing at other parts of the ship (like below the stacks or where fuel might be), keeping in mind it is war, and all is fair in love and war Again, and that every little bit helps, although I don't know if such a thing has any bearing in SH4, but I do it anyways, because it seems like a legitimate tactic.

If I am dealing with larger and harder to sink targets, such as a tanker, a torpedo or two helps speed things up in terms of sinking a ship, or at least helps to slow down the faster merchants. That way, to many torpedoes or to many cannon shells don't get wasted on a single target, but an equal mix of the two, as running out of torpedoes or running out of deck gun shells sort of eliminates a little bit of the subs offensive flexibility IMO.

We just have to remember that a subs is built for stealth, evasion, and moving underwater, they are meant for sneaky strikes and hitting the enemy when they least expect it, and not for slugging it out with armed surface ships in any sort of lasting surface battle. Generally speaking, if there is so much as a single destroyer or destroyer escort or any sort of well armed small ship or merchant with cannons, a surface attack with a sub becomes more of a suicide mission than a surface attack, especially if a threat cannot be quickly dealt with or proves to have gunners that can do better than hitting the broadside of a barn from the inside.
Just look at Germany in WWII, at some point, they started to remove deck guns in general, they even built a sub design that had no deck gun to begin with (The XXI?).


I have yet to be sunk during an actual planned/expected surface attack in SH4 since I usually put a lot of effort into avoiding dangerous situations (*cough* psycho SH2 destroyer *cough*), although I have come close to a kamikaze freighter trying to literally run me over when I surfaced near them on the same course with intent of shelling them, although I could turn and slow down and get out of their turning arc, causing them to then try to turn away and try to run away.

It does make things interesting in that my deck gun is on the rear. I guess being able to attack something while running away makes a little more sense to me than attacking something while charging at it.

I guess to much time playing SH1 years ago helps out a little bit, plus a little bit of experience with SH2 and SH3.

I am far from being a pro at SH4, I'm just a gamer with to much spare time and a love of submarines and blowing stuff up in games... :arrgh!:
and someone who types to much at times due to boredom... :doh:
(sorry for any eyes that exploded into flames trying to read all of that...) :dead:

[vanjast]

When on the surface there are things to remember..

- Is the Moon up and shining (moonless [no light] nights are better)
- Is the weather clear, cloudy or misty (obvious)
- Are the seas rough or smooth (Harder to see in rough weather)
- What speed are you travelling (higher speed makes a visible bow spray :woot:)
- At what bearing is the escort (Same as sonar detection.. you can be detected easier if you're side-on, more sub to see).

Minimise all of these and you're a :up: sub captain, sneaking right into convoys, undetected.
:D

[Stealhead]

vanjast has the thr right ideas.Also if you like to run surface attacks better to have TMO or RFB. I can pull off outstanding surface attacks in TMO1.7 other day I was in an S-boat out of Cavite in '41 and ran into a landingship task force. Since i was in the slow old S-boat I knew by the heading of the task force I could only hope to hit the troop ships(the most vital target in this type of task force anyway.) So I ran at Flank speed a whopping 13knts in my sweet old sugar boat.:|\\ I posted my sub so that I could come in and get hopefully 2 of the troop ships with the mk.10s but I just could not not get into range even at full speed so I had only one option the 4inch as I was only 6000 yds from the nearst troop ship(a very dark night)I felt this was pretty ballsy as there where 2 DD only about 8000yds away but for some reason all the DDs had stayed at the head of the task force leaving the flanks naked so I was able to sink one troop ship and badly damage a second before I had to turn away and dive to get away from the DDs. Surface attacks can be done but aginst ships with radar you can forget about it.The speed used in relation to the light condtions and coming in as much as head on as you can are most vital.Also I mostly use torpedos with surface attacks not the deck gun. A good torpedo attack on the surface at night can so confuse the bad guys they sometimes may start dropping charges thinking that you are under water!

[Folducker]

vanjast has the thr right ideas.Also if you like to run surface attacks better to have TMO or RFB. I can pull off outstanding surface attacks in TMO1.7 other day I was in an S-boat out of Cavite in '41 and ran into a landingship task force. Since i was in the slow old S-boat I knew by the heading of the task force I could only hope to hit the troop ships(the most vital target in this type of task force anyway.) So I ran at Flank speed a whopping 13knts in my sweet old sugar boat.:|\\ I posted my sub so that I could come in and get hopefully 2 of the troop ships with the mk.10s but I just could not not get into range even at full speed so I had only one option the 4inch as I was only 6000 yds from the nearst troop ship(a very dark night)I felt this was pretty ballsy as there where 2 DD only about 8000yds away but for some reason all the DDs had stayed at the head of the task force leaving the flanks naked so I was able to sink one troop ship and badly damage a second before I had to turn away and dive to get away from the DDs. Surface attacks can be done but aginst ships with radar you can forget about it.The speed used in relation to the light condtions and coming in as much as head on as you can are most vital.Also I mostly use torpedos with surface attacks not the deck gun. A good torpedo attack on the surface at night can so confuse the bad guys they sometimes may start dropping charges thinking that you are under water!

Playing the stock 1.5 game, I have found that surface attacks against anything with an escort is pure suicide. So far, what works for me:
1 When you first spot a convoy, get close enough to get a decent radar track. Draw a line through the target course using the middle ship.
2 Ring up flank speed to get in front. I try to arrive right on the line I previously drew, reduce speed to slow and set an opposite course so I am closing with the convoy. At about 8 miles, dive to 300 feet, go silent.
3 watch the sound track for the lead escort. When you get real close and it shortens and finally shifts indicating he is behind you, it's time to get busy.
4 now, steer for a spot close to one of the lead ships, when you get close, turn 90 degrees and go to periscope depth. You have to time this just right. Surface too soon, you are too far away and the escorts are on you like a flash. Too close, and by the time you get to periscope depth, they have passed and you have a crummy firing solution.
5 On the way up, set all torpedoes to high speed if you are using MK14's. when you get to about 90 feet, cycle the tubes and open all outer doors.
Make sure your periscope is down.
6 When you get to periscope depth, raise the scope with it pointing to "0" There should be a line of ships in front, one following another. Shoot at the furthest ship first. Change targets, (Make sure you are NOT using the position keeper) to the closest ship in front, shoot him next. Spin the scope 180, you should have a target perfectly lined up for a stern shot, if you keep the boat turning you may be able to get a shot at the ship behind also. I shot two at the ship in back, one missed but hit a freighter that stumbled in the way.
Go back to 300 feet post haste, but hang around.
Using this, I hit 5 ships, sinking 4 right away. The 5th ship was dead in the water but not sinking. I waited for the escorts to finally get tired and leave. I cruised around at 300 feet while my crew reloaded three tubes. Going back, I got very close to the ship that was dead in the water. Once again, at silent running and stopped, I went to periscope depth. At 500 yards, there was my wounded freighter and an escort sitting dead in the water. Two quick shots at the escort, one at the damaged freighter and back to 300 feet to get the hell out of Dodge. Managed to kill the escort along with the wounded freighter.
Like shooting fish in a barrel with everything set to automatic. Next campaign I go to manual targeting. I think that will be a little tougher.

[Stealhead]

Like I said this is one reason I like TMO with it you can pull off surface attacks without much trouble so long as the DDs dont have radar which they often wont until well into '43 and you have the proper lighting condtions an attack on the surface can work fine so long as you are using mk.14s on the lopnger range setting you can get off a good attack with no troubles most of the time.Even though TMO makes the AI much smarter and therefore harder it also does a better job of making condtions have a more life like effect on how well the AI can see. My S-boat attack with the deckgun was a rare example of how sometimes the condtions can work with you in TMO. We are talking about surface attacks here not how we do a none surface attack. If you load up TMO where you can perform a surface attack if you know what to do it can be done but it is not easy at all it is like messing around with the farmers daughter and not getting a load of rocksalt in your ass from the old man and his shotgun.

[Peto]

I'm an RFB user and do surface attacks all the time. The main thing is don't get too close :03:. I track my target and set up 2500-3000 yards off his track at all stop with a narrow aspect to the targets(s). Let the escorts go past (unless I feel like sinking a DD) and pop the merchant(s). When my torps are on the way, I go to 1/3 and start to turn away from the nearest escort. When the torps hit, I go to standard speed and point my stern at the nearest escort. Don't panic when the escorts start shooting star shells. When they start shooting at you, it's ok to panic :haha:.

I get away with surface attacks at least 50% of the time--and I mean get away without having to dive. Most important--give up the thought of having to get close to your target. If you can hit ships consistently at 1000 yards, you can hit them from 2500-3000. Park and let them come to you.

Cheers!

[mike_espo]

Hmmm. I was able to approach a small subchaser in my S boat to about 1500 yards and fire a spread of 3 fish into him. He never spotted me.. Maybe he was a novice.:hmmm:

[Armistead]

One of the dangerous things about surface attacks it you can't always be sure what skill level the enemy crews are. You come against a veteran crew.....you're in trouble.

[swmicros]

I recently tried a surface attack in a complete blinding rain storm and was still spotted!? My normal MO is surface while outside 10nm, decks awash until about 5nm, then PD for the final lineup and shoot. Seems to work for me! :up:

[Peto]

One of the dangerous things about surface attacks it you can't always be sure what skill level the enemy crews are. You come against a veteran crew.....you're in trouble.

Yes--AI crew level is very important to your chances. I'd say as important as weather conditions and your speed and aspect angle. :yep:

[Stealhead]

I never thought of this but one reason some stock players have such trouble is because they may be used to getting very close range while submerged like in the middle of a convoy and this is really not very accurate but you can get away with it thanks to the ditsy AI. So they may be used to getting so close. I dont think stock takes into account darkness as a line of site limiter like the mods do and that is what makes a surface attack at anything but less than very long range a no go with stock and getting a bit closer with the mods possiable. Though there is no way to be sure sometimes you can get spotted other times not. But i have gotten pretty close to what turned out to be a crack DD at least when I was underwater but he was not crack enough to avoid my mk.27 it cracked him.

[Armistead]

If you're playing to protect your crew, surface attacks are almost impossible. One way to test all your motives is have the next/previos cam on and put it on the nearest dd as you make your attack. I took a lot of time studying how they react, often switching from ship to ship. You can change speed, ect....and then the guns start turning. I even changed direction once and the second I did, his guns started turning.



I did a few last night. One a fairly large convoy. The light fog helped a lot and I got within 1600 yards before a ship opened up. Everyone mentioned many good factors, but the game isn't real life in this aspect. I'll stick to submerged attacks. One good shell hit can kill all your best gunners.

[pythos]

This is an area where Sh4 and 3 fail.

I am reading Donitz's book, and according to the grand admiral of the german navy surface attacks, at night were carried out at, get this, less than 200 yards.

The secret? Come in with your casing or deck awash.

I have done such attacks with a German boat. It has to be at night, and don't close to less than 300 meters. Needless to say this is really close, just outside the torpedo arming range. But it seems to work.

I was marauding INSIDE a convoy after passing through the screen. My presence was given away when I fired my first two shots. Then a moment later all hell broke loose. Star shells from the destroyers, and merchants trying to ram me. In real like my boat would have been iluminated by the flames of the two ships I succeeded in hitting.

Nice thing about running decks awash, the dive is very quick. The not so great thing about decks awash is that 1) it slows your boat down a lot, and 2) with RFB, and OM it is hell to set. For some reason the depth setting does not follow what is on the scale. In order to get the boat to run at 7 meters, I need to set 7.5. If I set it at 8 I start running on electrics.

I got away from the initial point of this post, which is...Yes, surface attacks can be done at very close range, which minimizes the effect of faulty torpedos, or solutions.

[Stealhead]

How dose SH4 fail at surface attacks have you not read that they can be done? And TMO and RFB are only mods they just changed how the AI works so it still is SH4. I must completey diasagree with your statement. And in WWII US subs had surface attacks that worked others failed completey. It is fully beliveable to me that some times when you dont think they will that the AI attacks you it is very murphys law just like in war things dont go according to plan. And Iam not sure I belvive the getting within 200yds that is very hard to belive at that range a blind watchman would have seen them not to mention that the sub could get damaged or destroyed if a large explosion occured.If you go inside a convoy the odds they will spot you are very high that is why I dont do it but you can get within 2000yds fire your fish and turn away never to be found by the Jap DDs.Some people who play this game have a I must sneak in super close closer than i need to be. Why do that when you can get well within torpedo range without getting so close that the ships crew could piss over the side of the ship and it hit your subs hull? If you do that might as well trade in your Gato for one of those kaitens(or how ever you spell the sucide subs)

[Kapitan Soniboy]

Hello fellow submariners:salute:. I did a night surface attack just recently and it was extremely satisfying (I'm sick, I know).

Middle of the night with perfect calm sea and weather. Spotted a convoy of four large merchants with two DD escorts in front and rear of the merchants. I approached at 3 knots and at a range of 4000 yards exatly which is the range of the electric torpedoes. My Balao gave two of the largest merchants three torpedoes each. Since the electric torpedo is fairly slow, it gave me time to turn and slip away in the shadows, slowly increasing speed.

When the lucky ones got their presents, I was gone. I think the destroyers were kinda smart since they immediately turned to me and started depth charging around the spot where I had just been when I first launched my torpedoes. At that time I had submerged and the destroyers couldn't find me.

This is why I dive and turn immediately when I fire my torps at periscope depth because the destroyers seem to head in the direction where the fish came from...

A successful attack at night when surfaced is a great feeling. Best game ever. :rock:

And by the way, I play Trigger Maru which I think makes the game so much better. Cheers! :sunny:

Edit:
90% realism (In Trigger Maru It says 90..)

[Rockin Robbins]

My John P Cromwell tutorial video (http://files.filefront.com/John+P+Cromwell+Tutorial7z/;12127008;/fileinfo.html) features a successful daytime surface attack. I'll fix a link here when FileFront is back up.

That reminds me that I've got to try that one again with my new and better video technique. It's one lousy quality video but it has all you need to do the attack.

[Sniper_Fox]

I love surface attacking. It's my favourite tactic. Go in hard and fast, i even like to pump off a few deck gun shells depending if i have ladder or acoustic torpedoes.

position yourself according to where the moon is inrelation to the convoy. if the moon is behind you its harder for them to see you. Go in at flank and empty your tubes. dive immediately to a depth of at least 100m and change direction to keep up with the convoy. drop speed and listen for explosions.

[Kapitan Soniboy]

Hey Rob! That thing you did in the movie was great! I've tried it by myself and it was fantastic! Thanks dude!