If I were the president

[Freiwillige]

We all complain about Bush or Obama so I thought to myself what would I do if I had 4\8 years in the white house. Here goes...If I were the president....

I would shut down the Department of homeland security. The millions spent would be better spent on hiring, training and outfitting local law enforcement.

I would shut down the A.T.F. again millions spent to do what law enforment already did. Americans dont need all these special interest sub groups in the Fed government telling them what to do. Again the money would be better spent on local law enforment, training and equiping.

Secure our borders and let the national guard and immigration enforcement
work together without there hands being tied to secure our nation.

Disband welfare for all able bodied citizens. While using the money to create state projects to employ the previous welfare recipiants.

Take all of these savings thus far and pump it into Education, day care for single mothers and family services.

Rebuild social security with a simple system of you get what you paid in. If you didnt pay in you get nothing out!

Decentralize the Federal Government and give state governments more rights to deal with their constituants. If one state votes yes on Gay marriage then that state recognises and pays benifits to gay couples but if a state votes no on the issue that state has no obligation to validate the contract.

Pull the U.S. out of Nafta and close down all incentives and tax loopholes that send U.S. jobs overseas. Reduce taxes on all goods manufactured in the U.S. and increase taxes on goods made by American companies outside the U.S.

Close most military bases outside the U.S. Big$$$ savings. If a country wishes to have American bases on its soil for its protection it must shoulder the cost of Keeping American troops on its soil.

End all foreighn finacial aid in times of non emergancy. Example Isreal. Isreal is armed enough to protect itself.

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Isreal accounts for 1/3 of U.S. foreighn aid and we pay out roughly 14,000 dollers annually per Isreali! (Source: Washington report on middle east affairs)

Mutual aid pact Yes, Endless finacial taxpayer burden...nooooo!

So I figured with my common sense aproach ive saved the U.S. billions and billions while fixing stuff in the process!

Can you do better?

[SteamWake]

Can you do better?


I dont know, would be hard to be much worse though.

I thing your views on foriegn relations are a tad un-informed.

[AVGWarhawk]

I dont know, would be hard to be much worse though.

I thing your views on foriegn relations are a tad un-informed.

So were Obama's and Clinton's. :D Sniper fire!!!!!!! Run!!!!!!!!

[VipertheSniper]

You know, disbanding welfare and especially the dropping of Israel like a hot potatoe amounts to political suicide... If you can sell it, good on you, but I think you wouldn't get elected, unless you plan to decieve your voters (like so much other politicians). And even then, who would vote for your proposed changes in Senate and Congress?

[longam]

I guess some don't realize how BIG the border really is.....

[Freiwillige]

Whoa I never said anything about dropping Isreal, Paying for Isreal is another thing. I doubt sincerly that joe public has any clue if and how much we are spending on Isreal. In this time of finacial crises I think its time to realise that Isreal is a big boy...all grown up, Time to get a job and stop living off of USA's allowance. Isreal has by far the strongest military in the region and a decent economy, Why in the hell should we subsodize their high standards of living while americans are losing homes and jobs?

And also I said that Welfare was being dropped to those who could work.
Peoplewho work for there money do far better in society than people who dont. Ever been to some of the highest welfare per capita city's....Crime drugs and gangs. People who work have more pride in themselves and less time for crime, Drugs and Gangs.

The border issue is easy. Communist Eastern europe had one of the largest borders around yet less people got thru there in 50 years than got thru ours in a day!

Cant do worse you say eh? Okay well lets just spend our way to bigger issues then and collapse under our own debt like were doing. Ill be Amazed if there is still any semblance of a nation in 50 years the way were going....call me paranoid but I smell civil war when all collapses:up:

[Onkel Neal]

You didn't say anything about taxes, illegal immigration, or motorcycle tracks.

[CaptainHaplo]

The key here is some ideas have some merit - though each has its own problems.

The problem is - as president you cannot just go around closing this and that and making this new program and that new program instead. Nor can you close a few doors and shift funding.

Congress controls the purse strings of the Federal Government. So pretty much anything you would want to do - goes through them. Good luck on the ATF, HS or anything else - because those all boost special interest money into the politicians re-election campaigns.

The office of POTUS is best used as a bully pulpit to accomplish things. Historically - speaking in the "modern" era where communication is instant and widespread, that has been how it has been most effectively used.

Want to get things accomplished - you have to be able to convince the people that this is important enough for them to raise the roof calling their LOCAL representatives. Only in that way can you exert any real leverage over congress.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Can you do better?

Perhaps.


Here's my plan. I claim the same fiat powers you use.

0) Amend Constitution to cap Federal budget as a percentage of GDP (5% ot so) within 40 years. Include provisions for emergency spending and annual quotas towards the goal.

1) Phase out Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. Any benefits that are not collected in the next 20 years are lost. Scale back DHHS funding proportional to need as we phase these out.

2) Privatize 25% of defense spending. Cut total funding by 10%

3) Cut funding to the following Federal Agencies by at least 50% over 8 years: Depts of State, Commerce. National Science Foundation, NASA.

4) Cut funding to the following Federal agencies by at least 90% over 8 years: Depts of Agriculture, Education, Interior, Labor, and Transportation. EPA, FDA, DEA(Legalize all or most drugs) ATF, OSHA.

5) Abolish the following Federal Agencies: Homeland Security, Housing and Urban Development, Homeland Security,Energy, National Endowment for the Arts, probably a bunch of others.

6) Amend Constitution to more strictly limit federal regulatory powers over interstate commerce(and ban subsidies!), promotion of general welfare, tariffs(ban!), within 8 years.

7) Abolish federal business taxes over 8years

8) Cap federal income tax(10%) and universalize rate within 20 years.

9) Amend Constitution to abolish the Central bank and return to backed currency within 40 years.

10) Make it a felony to afford public benefits to illegal immigrants under constitutional defense provisions.

11) Amend constitution to require 66% majority for passage of legislation and 75% for veto override, include line-item veto.


Naturally, any and all savings will have to be applied towards the goal of (0). Rather than relying upon cunningly crafted legislation and a politically astute populace to control the state, we'll just starve them out of power.
They certainly won't be founding(or re-founding) any new agencies with their budget capped at 5% of GDP, and if 11) can be passed, we'll be more insulated from insidious political goals than ever. There won't be any incentive for anyone to lobby the federal government, because it will be almost totally neutered.
As the tenth amendment intended, all they powers they will no longer have will have to be surrendered to the states, or the people.

[August]

While you guys are redrawing the Constitution here are a few things i'll want written in...

1. An elected official must either resign or finish his present term of office before he can run for another office. They ain't doing their job if they are out campaigning for another one and I dislike being used as someones stepping stone.

2. If Social Security is going to be abolished then every dollar of social security taxes collected must be paid back to it's contributors, with interest. I'll take mine in land.

3. All elected officials at all levels of government must wear the logo or name of all their major political sponsors on their clothing and their vehicles whenever they are in public. Think nascar driver gaudy. I want to be able to tell at a glance who owns them.

4. "None of the Above" is a valid choice in all political elections. If it gets more than half of the vote it forces a new election to be held immediately with a new crop of candidates, and yes that means the incumbent becomes a lame duck.

5. Federal income taxes are limited to 25% of state income taxes. I support the common good but i'd rather see the majority of my contribution spent more locally where I have better control over it.

6. National political parties are to be outlawed. When "Mr. Smith goes to Washington" I want him going there to represent the people of his district, not the damn Democrat or Republican parties.

7. Foreign manufactured goods will have a tariff placed on their importation if the nation or nations that produced the product do not meet or exceed US environmental, minimum wage or workplace safety standards, equal to the difference in the cost of compliance. If we're gonna compete globally lets do it fairly.

[Zachstar]

My plan.

A) Disband the existing educational standards. When all students can think about is passing (Or cheating through) the test so they can play Xbox. It leads to huge current losses in national educational levels. The only reason we dodged a bullet on computer literacy is that computer gaming encouraged citizens to educate themselves so we have not ended up with a huge need for computer experts.

B) Replace the existing standards with a hybrid of science/exploration education with nothing but technical training. For those who want to learn they will not have to compete with those who rather not as education will not be mandatory anymore. You want to drop out? Go ahead and apply for McDonalds (Or equivalent minimum wage hard work) at 11. A couple of hard nights later and I am quite sure most will want to get the technical education. It may sound extremely harsh but no words is going to convince these next generations what happens when you dont take education seriously.

C) Disbanding NASAs involvement in Manned spaceflight. The past 4 years have proven that NASA will do anything for the bucks including misleading the public about the issues surrounding Ares 1 until now its failure will likely wreck any chance at a return to the moon. Gov will assist those developing the technology to make us a space fairing race a realality without all the "agreements" and stuff that cause a simple return to the moon to become a political nightmare.

D)Change the welfare system. This part of course makes me unelectable but the welfare system needs to be changed to further help people who actually do make a difference. Precendence needs to be given to those who are trying to get a better education that gets them into a position to develop the next great technolgies. Who knows how many Einstiens are more worried about what they can afford to eat for dinner instead of his/her theories.

E) Phase out direct foreign aid. Instead of spending billions keeping entire nations dependant on us. Spend billions developing cheap solar water purifiers and aids treatments that can save many millions.

F) A massive project to develop cheap yet effective housing. We have to move away from wood housing. Which is easily damaged and trailer parks that are death traps and a symbol of issues in the nation instead of being the frontier. If a 2 story house costs just 50 thousnad and could be erected with just a small team with a week. Small communties would see a huge boost which would help the national economy. And if they are not easily damaged insurance companies would gladly tank the fees in order to get many more customers. And it inspire confidence in young generations eager to get out on their own. Im thinking domes of cheap carbon based materials (Kind of like bullet proof glass except a tad more flexable material that can be made of carbon harvested from various plant life instead of oil supply oh and of course made to be unvieable in the entire visable spectrum) There seems to be a mutltitude of projects moving towards a goal like this. But it seems to be of low priority in the face of the housing bubble collapse.

ETc...

[VipertheSniper]

You want to move away from wooden housing and want two story building that can be built with a small team within a week and cost up to 50.000$...

Hmm I guess that could happen, if you want all houses to look the same. I've worked on two construction sites of two story brick houses... and a week just wouldn't cut it (more like 6 months with a small crew and that's without giving it a nice facade). You'd need to have pre-manufactured parts and for that to be cost-efficient you'll have to produce lots of them. Don't get me wrong, we've got quite a few , for lack of a better word, "ready-made parts houses" manufacturers, and the demand is there, but you're still looking at costs upwards of 120.000$ approx. without taking into account the cost for land, water connections and electricity

[Zachstar]

I dont want to derail this topic discussing future housing. I will start another topic.

[Freiwillige]

UnderseaLcpl and August....You get my vote!:up:

Neil...Taxes=No more I.R.S. instead the wildly popular purchase tax would replace it. Every thing you buy has a small tax. The poor only buy what they need to survive so they pay less tax than the rich who buy alot of items.

Immigration... Well under a secure border system there could only be one way in....legally. I would stop all aid going to illegal immigration and make it a criminal act to support in anyway an illegal immigrant. After all if you knowingly help any other felon you are aiding and abeding. I would also do a short repatriation program helping those who are here go home and apply legaly.

Motorcycle tracks? Sure why not!:hmmm:

Gun control... Our existing laws are good enough:up:

[UnderseaLcpl]

While you guys are redrawing the Constitution here are a few things i'll want written in...

1. An elected official must either resign or finish his present term of office before he can run for another office. They ain't doing their job if they are out campaigning for another one and I dislike being used as someones stepping stone.

Okay.

2. If Social Security is going to be abolished then every dollar of social security taxes collected must be paid back to it's contributors, with interest. I'll take mine in land.

No. We can't afford to pay the entitlements we already have. If you draw SS benefits within 20 years, or do so currently, you'll get them. If not, you don't. It sucks, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Be glad that it is now and not a few years from now when you'll just lose everything.

3. All elected officials at all levels of government must wear the logo or name of all their major political sponsors on their clothing and their vehicles whenever they are in public. Think nascar driver gaudy. I want to be able to tell at a glance who owns them.
I actually love that idea, though I wouldn't write it into the constitution. Besides, corporations won't support a legislator that has virtually no power.

4. "None of the Above" is a valid choice in all political elections. If it gets more than half of the vote it forces a new election to be held immediately with a new crop of candidates, and yes that means the incumbent becomes a lame duck.
Okay.

5. Federal income taxes are limited to 25% of state income taxes. I support the common good but i'd rather see the majority of my contribution spent more locally where I have better control over it.
Maybe. I'd prefer a GDP-based limit, though. I think it is more representative of national needs. After all, the conservative states would have the lowest tax rates and the most economic growth. We might end up hamstringing the Federal government more than necessary.

6. National political parties are to be outlawed. When "Mr. Smith goes to Washington" I want him going there to represent the people of his district, not the damn Democrat or Republican parties.
No, because you'd also eliminate single-issue parties. No worries, though. Under my plan, Washington won't be able to bankroll his agendas. You'll have to see your state legislature about that.

7. Foreign manufactured goods will have a tariff placed on their importation if the nation or nations that produced the product do not meet or exceed US environmental, minimum wage or workplace safety standards, equal to the difference in the cost of compliance. If we're gonna compete globally lets do it fairly.

Absolutely not. Not ever. I could go on about the "exports are better than imports" fallacy for pages, but to be brief, the point is that we stand to gain a lot more by exporting dollars and receiving goods.
Under my plan, business would flock to the U.S. like never before, espescially in today's socialistic world. Just imagine if we could replicate the tremendous growth of the Tiger markets here in the U.S.! It would be unprecedented.
Tariffs only hurt the consumer, namely us. They just make goods more expensive than they should be. Putting tariffs or even embargoes on nations we do not agree with will not help their citizens. Quite the contrary, we'll actually harm them. The less wealth there is in a nation, the more power an abusive statist government can wield.

There is nothing but benefit to be gained from completely free trade.

[Onkel Neal]

I can go along with some of that stuff (most won't work) but not legalizing drugs or cutting NASA. :hmmm:

And you caved in to motorcycle tracks too easily, you won't last a day against the special interest groups ;)

[nikimcbee]

Now I heard about the new policy that would convert all petrol driven motorcycles to eletric-moped motors using bio-degradable batteries by this september. :yeah: or the tax on any 2 wheeled machine that has the letter "Z" (I'll translate for our english folk: Zed)

[August]

There is nothing but benefit to be gained from completely free trade.

I disagree. Allowing your goods to be made in countries with no environmental laws by slaves working in dangerous sweatshops is no benefit to anyone worth benefiting. You either raise the standard by making them toe our line or gut our laws to match theirs (or lack thereof). We cannot compete with slave labor.

Regarding SS: No way would i surrender that point to you or anyone else. That is my money and i'll have it back with interest.

As for single issue parties, I don't see why you think they'd be effected. There is more than one way for any single issue group to make it's wishes known nor is there anything in what i said that implies groups and organizations couldn't recommend favored candidates to their membership.

[UnderseaLcpl]

My plan.

A) Disband the existing educational standards. When all students can think about is passing (Or cheating through) the test so they can play Xbox. It leads to huge current losses in national educational levels. The only reason we dodged a bullet on computer literacy is that computer gaming encouraged citizens to educate themselves so we have not ended up with a huge need for computer experts.
Are you insinuating that the entertainment software industry has single-handedly sustained the U.S. economy? Or that students perform lower on tests because they only care about computer games?
If so, how do you account for the marked decline in U.S. School performance since the 50's? 60's? 70's? 80's? Those were not big computer decades, relatively speaking.
I'm all for disbanding current educational standards by abolishing the Department of Education, but an educational system based on competition between schools for students and parents' dollars must take its' place. All privatized, half-privatized, voucher-system, any combination thereof, any of it has got to better than what we have now. Furthermore, we should remove legislative support for teachers' unions.

B) Replace the existing standards with a hybrid of science/exploration education with nothing but technical training. For those who want to learn they will not have to compete with those who rather not as education will not be mandatory anymore. You want to drop out? Go ahead and apply for McDonalds (Or equivalent minimum wage hard work) at 11. A couple of hard nights later and I am quite sure most will want to get the technical education. It may sound extremely harsh but no words is going to convince these next generations what happens when you dont take education seriously.

I wish I could say it in a gentler fashion but that's ridiculous. Science and exploration with nothing but technical training!?
And where, my friend, do the other sectors of the economy figure in? And how does this rectify the ineptitude of the current education system?
You could train every student in the U.S. in nothing but nuclear physics from grade 1 and still fail to achieve desireable results in that field, especially for the investment and the costs to other economic sectors.
The problem is one of quality, not curriculum or quantity.
As always, Zach, I applaud your initiative to sieze the future and think ahead, but there are other concerns that must be met first to form a basis for such policy. You can't just jump from a service economy to technopia. What on God's green earth is this nation going to do with 30 million scientists in addition to the ones we already have? Where are they going to work? Who is going to pay them?
The economy doesn't work like that. It isn't a materr of simply deciding where the future lies and redirecting resources of any kind towards that goal. All your plan would do is result in a lot of underpaid or unemployed specialists. Supply and demand, it's a law for a reason.


C) Disbanding NASAs involvement in Manned spaceflight. The past 4 years have proven that NASA will do anything for the bucks including misleading the public about the issues surrounding Ares 1 until now its failure will likely wreck any chance at a return to the moon. Gov will assist those developing the technology to make us a space fairing race a realality without all the "agreements" and stuff that cause a simple return to the moon to become a political nightmare.
Well, I'm all for cutting NASA spending. The 50% of present-day funding I reserve is mostly for maintaining commercial space interests. Eventually, I'd like to see the agency eliminated entirely.
Nothing but profit drive and private interest is ever going to create sustainable space research and exploitation.



D)Change the welfare system. This part of course makes me unelectable but the welfare system needs to be changed to further help people who actually do make a difference. Precendence needs to be given to those who are trying to get a better education that gets them into a position to develop the next great technolgies. Who knows how many Einstiens are more worried about what they can afford to eat for dinner instead of his/her theories.

Considering that this system already exsists, to a large extent, I'd need to know more about your system before offering my opinion.
E) Phase out direct foreign aid. Instead of spending billions keeping entire nations dependant on us. Spend billions developing cheap solar water purifiers and aids treatments that can save many millions.
The one problem I have with this policy is that it is no different than current policy. Even if we developed some nice solar water purifiers and even found a cure for aids, it does nothing to address the issues that make these problems rampant in 3rd world countries in the first place.
All you will end up doing is contributing to an unsustainable population boom and incur a lot of costs.
The main problem that all 3rd-world nations share is oppressive, centralist, governments. That is part of why none of our aid helps much. The other problem is the population. Giving them different essential needs isn't going to help. You'll just make a bigger oppressed population that requires more aid next year.
Either you militarily remove the offending governments and institute capitalism to benefit living standards, or you just let them be. I prefer to let them be. Honestly, I don't have a solution for 3rd world nations except to hope that they revolt and put some semblance of a functional state in place. I wouldn't commit U.S. troops or tax dollars to achive that end. Private charities can do it if they care enough.


F) A massive project to develop cheap yet effective housing. We have to move away from wood housing. Which is easily damaged and trailer parks that are death traps and a symbol of issues in the nation instead of being the frontier. If a 2 story house costs just 50 thousnad and could be erected with just a small team with a week. Small communties would see a huge boost which would help the national economy. And if they are not easily damaged insurance companies would gladly tank the fees in order to get many more customers. And it inspire confidence in young generations eager to get out on their own. Im thinking domes of cheap carbon based materials (Kind of like bullet proof glass except a tad more flexable material that can be made of carbon harvested from various plant life instead of oil supply oh and of course made to be unvieable in the entire visable spectrum) There seems to be a mutltitude of projects moving towards a goal like this. But it seems to be of low priority in the face of the housing bubble collapse.

Good news: We have the cheap part nailed down.
Bad News: Effective is expensive.

Under my policy, you and anyone like you will have all the freedom in the world to develop such housing and take the market by storm. I'll even get taxes and a lot of licensure regs out of your way. However, I won't give you one red cent of taxpayer money to achieve that goal.
If the idea is really that good, you should have no problem convincing people to fund you, but the state shouldn't be wasting money on maybes.

On the bright side, you get to keep any money you make all to yourself (minus a nominal income tax) and use it for whatever means you desire.

[baggygreen]

Can I try, as a foreigner???

I would start by properly closing off your southern border, funded by the dismantling of homeland security. Employment won’t be an issue, because you can retrain the bureaucrats and send them south to patrol the border. This will boost the economies of towns down south as you’d have people resettling there. Hooray!

Next would come legislation holding accountable those responsible for large sums of taxpayers’ money. As an example, NASA. I wouldn’t shut it down, but I would force them to justify their programmes with quantifiable results. (I’d also try make it impossible for Dr Hanssen to work anywhere in the country!). If NASA wants to keep its funding, then they must produce results. Same applies for the military. I’m not advocating cuts per se to the defence budget, however once the majority of the military is out of Iraq there will be significant savings to be made by focussing solely on the Afghani theatre. However there are a number of programmes which seem to eat money mercilessly. If contractors can’t produce goods close to the time allocated, and close to the costs estimated, then they lose their contracts. Competition amongst private enterprise for many projects is a good thing, provided those bidders meet stringent security tests.

Next, your health system is messed up. It’d cost to fix it, but I’m sure a couple of the trillion dollars spent on ‘stimulus packages’ could’ve helped here! Your hospitals are flooded with sick people, suffering sniffles and little more. Solution? Entice and introduce more GPs, funded by a tax or a levy payable by each person earning over a threshold. Subsidised appointments to the GP will reduce the load on your hospitals for basic problems, allowing them to focus on more urgent and pressing cases, for which they were designed.

I’ve touched on taxation, so I’ll continue now. Federal government should tax citizens only on essential items, for which the nation as a whole benefits. Poorly worded I know, but I’m at work and can’t think it through properly. Essentially, things such as Defence, Health, Welfare, Customs, and interstate roads/rail links. I can’t think of anything else which belongs on that list at the moment although I’m sure there are some others. Most other areas can (and in my opinion, should) be governed by the States, which will give you the people more chance to have a say in the way things are run. Obviously this runs a bit of a risk of some states going under financially, and there would need to be provisions for Federal aid in that instance but it would need to be strictly regulated. The only other thing I’d be happy with is a low tax for disaster relief. Everybody contributes, everyone receives help when disaster strikes them.

In terms of foreign policy, I’d reduce monetary aid to Israel, but keep the tight defence ties. I’d probably install strict regulations and criteria for the receipt of aid money. If you can’t prove that the money is going towards good for everyone, then you don’t get anything. I know that wouldn’t be absolutely popular, but hey, how long can you yanks keep throwing away money better spent where you can see the benefits in your own community. Charity starts at home, after all. Pakistan & Afghanistan are tough, you’d have to toe a hard line against the militants, and go after them harder. Everywhere they poked their heads up, hammer it back down. Other than that, I’d adopt a much less active role. Maintaining the bases, and the gear, and the people, but otherwise sitting there benignly. If some form of action is needed, take it as hard and as quick as possible, then back away and go back to a watchful outlook. You yanks can’t be expected and frankly shouldn’t want to play copper everywhere. But it is important that if anyone mistakes this attitude as weakness, you have the ability and willpower to prove them painfully wrong.

Hows that all go down with you blokes?

[UnderseaLcpl]

I disagree. Allowing your goods to be made in countries with no environmental laws by slaves working in dangerous sweatshops is no benefit to anyone worth benefiting. You either raise the standard by making them toe our line or gut our laws to match theirs (or lack thereof). We cannot compete with slave labor.
We don't have to compete with it, we just have to own it. The more money we can pump into low-income economies, the better off they'll be. It wasn't so long ago that people worked for pitful wages in this country.
Remember sharecroppers?
Economic growth, even in foreign nations, lifts people out of poverty. As the demand for products increases, so does the demand,and competition, ($$$) for labor. Just look at China, a huge Communist nation bisected by free-market trade zones because of the demand for labor and the fallacy of wages below the market average.
Obviously, we are not going to gut our labor laws to match those of China, and even if we did, industry couldn't sink to that standard because there would be a massive labor shortage. We'd end up with a black-market labor force.
Conversely, we can't hold other nations to our standards because we would incur tremendous labor expenses,(and probably military expenses enforcing such a policy) as well as a black-market labor and product market.
Just leave other nations alone. Their problems are their problems. We can't fix them or mitigate them without pissing off the whole world(and harming our economy), so just let them be.


Regarding SS: No way would i surrender that point to you or anyone else. That is my money and i'll have it back with interest.
Thanks. Now I get to pay your entitlement as well as my own, plus your interest. Bear in mind that under my plan, you get to keep whatever benfits you claim over the next twenty years, whereas I have to pay for twenty years and still get nothing.
Quite frankly, it is not your money because your generation didn't take it back. The government spent it as soon as you surrendered it. Now you are saying that if my generation did try to abolish this destructive system you would voluntarily bankrupt the whole country by demanding interest on top of the already unsustainable entitlement budget, which you would get standard benefits from anyways!?
Under my plan, current generations, including my own, would be giving up 20 years' worth of SS taxes to support the entitlements that older generations were promised. And you still want interest?
Are you kidding me!? :-?
Unbelieveable. I thought I actually had a plan that would satisfy the AARP, but I can't even get it past you!


As for single issue parties, I don't see why you think they'd be effected. There is more than one way for any single issue group to make it's wishes known nor is there anything in what i said that implies groups and organizations couldn't recommend favored candidates to their membership

I cede the point because you're sort of right and because an impotent federal government wouldn't garner much party interest, anyway. However, the federal government has no power to prohibit political parties within the states, so have fun banning that inevitable mess.

[Stealhead]

Ha ha nice but man what a pipe dream none of us will ever get this type of power. And some say no more US bases over seas. But you have to have allies and if you are the most strong military nation you will have to at least provide aid that you pay for to them if you dont guess what?And as to bases in Japan and South Korea what do you think China would do if they knew that we where on the other side of the Pacific? You need tohave some military bases overseas to have some established forces the guy that dosent like you will crush them or they will side with him aginst you in since time of Ancient Egypt even it has been very important to show all comers that you have a military force that will protect its intrests and some things that you nation needs to survive will come from another nation and you have 2 options to have this you either have them as an ally or you control that nation yourself if you dont the guy that doesnt like you will. We thought being isolationest was so great in the 1920s-1941 and look what good that did us we still got into a war. As to SS if people used it the way it was meant to be used there would be no problem it was never supposed to be the only or primary source of money for most retires. To solve this we can do what they do in some asian nations they require by law that every working person put a certain amount of there money into a secure form of savings(it is thier money not the govs so they get all of it) we do not do that here.

[Onkel Neal]

Regarding SS: No way would i surrender that point to you or anyone else. That is my money and i'll have it back with interest.



Thank you very much. :yep: If we dismantle SS, then I have receipts, I want my contributions back, plus interest, as August said.




Thanks. Now I get to pay your entitlement as well as my own, plus your interest. Bear in mind that under my plan, you get to keep whatever benfits you claim over the next twenty years, whereas I have to pay for twenty years and still get nothing.
Quite frankly, it is not your money because your generation didn't take it back.


What? :o Does that apply to our money invested in banks? It's not our because we haven't withdrawn it?

It's not an entitlement when you are the group funding it.

[August]

Just leave other nations alone. Their problems are their problems. We can't fix them or mitigate them without pissing off the whole world(and harming our economy), so just let them be.

That's fine with me Lance but while I see your point of helping others it makes no sense to me to do it at the expense of our own people. Besides pollution does not recognize international borders. There is a reason we enacted our environmental laws and I don't see how letting our business leaders bypass them by moving plants overseas helps anyone in the long run.

Quite frankly, it is not your money because your generation didn't take it back.

What? Hey just because I don't exercise a right does not mean I surrender it. What you're advocating is to spend my money but not your own. If the Federal government can crap out trillions of dollars to bail out car companies it can also return my money.

Under my plan, current generations, including my own, would be giving up 20 years' worth of SS taxes to support the entitlements that older generations were promised. And you still want interest?

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is partly what got us in this mess already.
That money was taken with a promise that it would be paid back, with interest.

Unbelieveable. I thought I actually had a plan that would satisfy the AARP, but I can't even get it past you!

I'm joining AARP this year. :DL

However, the federal government has no power to prohibit political parties within the states, so have fun banning that inevitable mess.

Political parties within a state is fine. Out entire political system is based around states so i see them as a natural extension of that.

[VipertheSniper]

I dont want to derail this topic discussing future housing. I will start another topic.

Didn't mean to.

[August]

We thought being isolationest was so great in the 1920s-1941 and look what good that did us we still got into a war.

That's the popular theory but had we not been isolationist how would that have prevented ww2 from occurring? I mean do you seriously think the depression era USA would have been able to project enough military and/or political clout to prevent the nazis from coming to power or Japan and Italy from militarizing?

[UnderseaLcpl]

That's fine with me Lance but while I see your point of helping others it makes no sense to me to do it at the expense of our own people. Besides pollution does not recognize international borders. There is a reason we enacted our environmental laws and I don't see how letting our business leaders bypass them by moving plants overseas helps anyone in the long run.
Oh, this won't be at the expense of our own people. My plan is designed to make the U.S. a major tax haven/investment center, helping to ensure that any business that wants to be competitive is based here.
True, some factories will move to other countries, but only the ones that can profit the most from cheap unskilled labor or lax environmental regulations. We don't want those anyway, and they can help other nations build their economies. Besides, the companies that own those factories will be based here, so most of the profit comes back here for reinvestment or domestic spending.
You have a point with the pollution thing, but I don't think that is the most pressing concern, nor do I have an acceptable solution for it yet. Tariffs certainly aren't the way to go, though. They have a history of poor results as agents of foreign policy.




What? Hey just because I don't exercise a right does not mean I surrender it. What you're advocating is to spend my money but not your own. If the Federal government can crap out trillions of dollars to bail out car companies it can also return my money.
You and Neal are killing me:O:
You'd still get the same social security that everyone else has gotten, whereas I'd be getting nothing, because I won't qualify for retirement benefits within 20 years.
The vast majority of working Americans never get back what they put into social security, and now that I want to get rid of it, you suddenly feel like you should get back everything you put into it, plus interest?
That's not fair, and it certainly isn't feasible. SS spending is like a quarter of the national budget all by itself. If we were to pay back all SS contributions to persons eligible within twenty years, plus the accumulated interest, it would destroy the country. We'd have to borrow or print about.... my god I don't even know.... a very conservative estimate (42,000(avgincome)x.25(FICA)x.15(SS)x30(years worked)x100,000,000(people eligible within 20 years) works out to about 5 trillion without interest! At even 3% interest it comes out to a further 4.5 trillion for a total of 9.5 trillion!
There you go. You almost managed to double the national debt, and that has interest, too. How are we gonna pay that off?:dead:

Can't you just take the same benefits everyone else got and be happy?:DL
Please?:D

[August]

Can't you just take the same benefits everyone else got and be happy?:DL
Please?:D

Politics is the art of compromise. Never start negotiating from the place you want to end up at... ;)

BTW in trade for my agreement on dissolving Social Security all congressional health care benefits must expire when they leave office and they get no pensions either. I'd prefer they also be tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail but i'm willing to compromise on the rail part... :D

[Freiwillige]

That's the popular theory but had we not been isolationist how would that have prevented ww2 from occurring? I mean do you seriously think the depression era USA would have been able to project enough military and/or political clout to prevent the nazis from coming to power or Japan and Italy from militarizing?

We were not really isolationists, Roosevelts agressive foreighn policy almost guaranteed our involvment in foreighn wars. Violating neutrality acts byarming combatanys and escourting. Lets also not forgett that we claimed 1/2 of the Atlantic ocean as soverghn U.S. territory and fired on German subs without legal merit...hardly isolationists. Roosevelt almost lost his political career and there were strong bodies in government that opposed him.

[August]

We were not really isolationists, Roosevelts agressive foreighn policy almost guaranteed our involvment in foreighn wars. Violating neutrality acts byarming combatanys and escourting. Lets also not forgett that we claimed 1/2 of the Atlantic ocean as soverghn U.S. territory and fired on German subs without legal merit...hardly isolationists. Roosevelt almost lost his political career and there were strong bodies in government that opposed him.

Good point, but all that occurred after the nazis got into power and at that point war was pretty much inevitable.

[Onkel Neal]

Oh,
There you go. You almost managed to double the national debt, and that has interest, too. How are we gonna pay that off?:dead:



Couldn't we just nationalize China? :hmmm:

[Letum]

When I become Prime Minister with a huge majority and popular support
I will disband the democratic process to ensure I could keep power indefinitely.

Home Affairs
Any sign of discontent or opposition would be dealt with swift execution or
torture. I would stir hatred against any slightly unpopular minority group
and then persecute them whilst appearing to my supporters to be saving
the country from said minority group.

Culture
All media, including TV, the internet and books would be banned unless it
was either made by people answerable to me or has been checked by
them.

Foreign Relations
I would keep most foreign relations hostile to keep the people united in
their support for me as protector of the country. If possible I would
enter a low risk, but protracted war, preferably against the minority group
mentioned above.

Economic Matters
All unions would be banned. Most business rules would be abolished,
especially monopoly rules. Service industry will be discouraged. Social
spending will be abolished with the exception of pensions and
education (Education falling under the same rules as media anyway).
Military spending will be increased many times over.
All national debts will be declared void.
20% of GDP per year will go towards my vast mausoleum which will
replace the city of Coventry.

[Stealhead]

@ August I sort put that into words wrong. I know that WWII was goona go down anyway. what i am saying is that we due to a public that largely supported not getting involved was a bad thing. If wed have said we in this too when England and France declared war in 1939 it could very possiably shortened the war by years. I mean the military knew for many years that some day we would fight Japan in the Pacific. And they also knew that sooner or later wed would have to fight Germany as well. So what i really should have said is that the general publics desire to "stay out of it" hurt rather than helped us.Bottom line to me is like it or not we are the world power right now and to have said power you have got to be in places. And I no dumb dumb either I was in the Air Force and the Army and have been overseas including Iraq. In fact Id say that being in the military over the years is what helped me to understand how the world works some say love everyone or just saty in your nation it just dosent work that way. the only way to insure that you are safe is to have your power on display where it needs to be.And we dont always get it right we dont always pick the right place the right time but you cant always be right. That is what got us WWII they let Hitler do things way back in the 30s they could have said hey buddy you better chill out but they did not. All things that happen in the world have an effect on the rest of it.

By the way your pic there you have the old kit when was that late 60s 70s early 80s? Hard to tell by the small pic. Looks alot like Grenada got a buddy that was an Airborne Ranger he was in that back in 83.

[August]

By the way your pic there you have the old kit when was that late 60s 70s early 80s? Hard to tell by the small pic. Looks alot like Grenada got a buddy that was an Airborne Ranger he was in that back in 83.

That was taken in '82 at Hanscom AFB in Massachusetts. I was stationed at Ft. Devens with the 10th SFG.

[Freiwillige]

When I become Prime Minister with a huge majority and popular support
I will disband the democratic process to ensure I could keep power indefinitely.

Home Affairs
Any sign of discontent or opposition would be dealt with swift execution or
torture. I would stir hatred against any slightly unpopular minority group
and then persecute them whilst appearing to my supporters to be saving
the country from said minority group.

Culture
All media, including TV, the internet and books would be banned unless it
was either made by people answerable to me or has been checked by
them.

Foreign Relations
I would keep most foreign relations hostile to keep the people united in
their support for me as protector of the country. If possible I would
enter a low risk, but protracted war, preferably against the minority group
mentioned above.

Economic Matters
All unions would be banned. Most business rules would be abolished,
especially monopoly rules. Service industry will be discouraged. Social
spending will be abolished with the exception of pensions and
education (Education falling under the same rules as media anyway).
Military spending will be increased many times over.
All national debts will be declared void.
20% of GDP per year will go towards my vast mausoleum which will
replace the city of Coventry.

From the high chancellor : "England Prevails!"

"Remember, Remember the fifth of november, the treason and gunpowder plot. I see no reason the fifth of november ever should be forgott"

[Letum]

From the high chancellor : "England Prevails!"

"Remember, Remember the fifth of november, the treason and gunpowder plot. I see no reason the fifth of november ever should be forgott"


Consider your self on The List.

[Freiwillige]

V: Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villian by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.

The only verdict is vengence; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.

Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V.

Evey: Are you like a crazy person?

V: I'm quite sure they will say so.:arrgh!: