need some advice, stock is bothersome, looking for mods

[rditto48801]

Can anyone give me some good advice?

Mainly any good mods?
Such as for....


#1: reducing aircraft?
Especially doing something with those 'aircraft highways'...
Or the absurd 'spawn rate' of aircraft in some areas...
I have found areas where I seem to detect 1-2 dozen contacts per hour, spend many hours diving, rising up enough to use SD radar and diving again... twice spotting aircraft via periscope...
I am presently in late July of 1942... I doubt even Germany had it that bad... I know Japan had some major air power, but give me a break... I am wondering if I have detected more aircraft in several hours than subs in WWII detected during entire patrols... :o

#2: A mod that deals with the apparent lack of friendly aircraft and abundant cross eyed allied gunners during enemy air raids in friendly waters.
Allied gunners can't seem to shoot strait, I wonder if the ships even use their AA guns at all (definitely use their cannons), and the lack of allied aircraft despite being at Midway where there are airbases and a carrier...

#3: A mod relating to shipping might also be nice.
I get annoyed to see the area I am in all but devoid of ships while other areas are swarming with reported contacts, yet going to said other areas results in there being all but devoid of ships while the area I was at was then swarming with reported contacts... :-?

#4: Any mods for the subs or other things?
I know some subs, like the Gato class, are supposed to have an underwater endurance of 48 hours, but in game, I am lucky if I can go 6 hours at minimal speed before the batteries are about depleted. Any mods to fix this, or am I missing some detail someplace?
Also, is it true that the typical 'blast an aircraft to bits' round from a deck gun actually takes a few hits to take out an aircraft? If so, any mods to fix that?
I can't seem to find any settings relating to vulnerability, any mods to fix or emulate that?

#5: Any mod that allows switching between manual and automatic TDC?
Being that such an option was apparently in the first three Silent Hunters, it seems odd (and stupid), to have removed the option entirely and changed it to being part of the realism settings. Automatic is worthless when it comes to 'firing blind' when trapped underwater, although the Position Keeper is at least useful in some situations.


I basically want something that has some good realism, some things that keep in mind it is still a game, makes the 'challenge' a little more reasonable, yet is suitable for someone who is both a fan of the Silent Hunter series and a casual gamer... and to fix any number of things Ubisoft ignored, left out, threw out, broke, or otherwise apparently didn't give a darn about...


I have already downloaded (but not installed) a mod for smaller radar blips (just need something other than SD radar), and a mod to be able to raise the radar mast the SD radar is on.
Now if only the apparent SD radar screen would actually do anything other than be blank...
At least I have heard the SJ radar screen actually works...

On a final note, I play single player, I'm not much for multi-player games.
I do have some basic modding skills myself, but no experience with modding Silent Hunter games.

Overall... if I need to look for this many mods... I wonder if Ubisoft, when making SH4, was thinking anything beyond "make it resemble the previous games enough to be able to be called Silent Hunter, get it working enough to be considered playable, and then ship it and prepare to make bank deposits"... :-?

[Stealhead]

Well if too many planes bugs you then TMO 1.7 is your best bet though be warned that though there are far less planes they are far more skilled being seen on the surface or in less than 100 feet of water is near sucide as is trying to shoot them down.TMO also makes the AI for all foes alot harder from pilots to crew of ships but this obviously makes the game more challenging. You may have a little trouble seeing as you want there to more targets and higher realism as all the MODs like TMO and RFB will reduce the amount of traffic so I highly advise you to saty away from RSRDC as this mod makes stock,TMO,and RFB have even fewer ships dont know how long you have been playing but your bloodhound nose for shipping will improve over time.As far as i know of you can only have manual or auto TDC one or the other no way to chagne this on the fly in game.As to your only being able to stay under for 6 hours I can only guess that you are going too fast you should be able to saty under for about 48 hours if you begin witha fully charged batt. if you go 1-2 knots if this is the case for you then :dead: as I dont know of any reason why besides damage having occured. Not much to be done that i am aware of as to allied ac or allied AI aa gunners Id say dont worrie about them they arent or your sub so who cares? Dont ever use the deckgun if you mean the 3,4,or 5inch guns aginst ac and with TMO you can forget about doing that.The PC is part of the manual targeting system not the auto targeting system. Anyway some can give you other answers i suppose.Id just say dont be so negative towards the game there are plenty of MODS that make this game outstanding I feel TMO and RFB being 2 shining examples try them out and give your skills some time to improve and i think you will enjoy SH4 much more than you seem to at the moment dont be so harsh on yourself either this game is pretty hard so it takes a while just to be crappy at it.:88) I have been playiong SH4 for about 1 1/2 years and i am now at what id say is This skipper is a bit of a moron but he pulls it off from time to time. Well I am not that bad but i am no where near the best.

P.S. the SD radar has no plotting(ppi) screen nor did the real thing it was omni directional so it could only warn that a plane was inside it 360 sight and range but gave no data as to where the plane was for the most part in real WWII subs the lookouts could often see a plane form farther out than could the SD so in a way it was more of an extra lookout. It works alot better in the game than it did in real life.Also dont be so harsh at least on the direct devs of SH4 they did a very good job given the constrants put on them by higher ups at UBI and some of the Devs are members of this site and do post so they do have an intrest in this game and its development so you dont want to hurt thier feelings.

[AVGWarhawk]

In short, a well rounded mod and very fun to use:

TMO:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=868

Patch for TMO:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1073

Reduced aircraft and fun patrols/missions.

When you feel you want to get into some realism as much as the game will allow:

RFB(real fleetboat) realistic submarines and function
RSRD(Run Silent Run Deep) realistic traffic and missions.

Trust me, you will get to the point that more immersion is what you want.

[rditto48801]

Let me rephrase my trouble with ships.
As of the last patrol or two, they were not evenly spread out. There were plenty of report contacts, it was just that the majority of them were nowhere near where I was at. If I left an area with nothing more than the occasional small ship and headed towards an area that had lots of traffic for two weeks, I arrive at an area almost devoid of shipping, while the area I was at seems to suddenly have lots of ships/convoys/tasks forces reported there.

I like the idea of reducing the number of aircraft so I don't estimate some areas with 1-2 dozen aircraft passing over each hour.

I don't want the aircraft to be to tough, I like a blend of realism and gameplay, so making all enemy planes effectively elite does not sound very fun to me. Makes those sudden air strikes while refueling at Midway seem like a they could be a suicide run...




I was under the impression that SD radar functioned with a 'radar screen' like an old A scope radar, being able to give a basic range by showing 'peaks' on the screen, but without the ability to give a bearing since it was omnidirectional. It's one thing I find annoying about Silent Hunter 4, since I play so stuff is displayed on the map, it has to immediately show the 'exact' position and direction of travel of the aircraft.

In Silent Hunter 1, there were two radar screens iirc. One solely for the 'air search' radar, although I forget if SH1 had anything past the SD/Improved SD radar for air search radars in SH1. The second screen was for 'surface search' radar, with a toggle for A-scope and PPI modes for use when later radars were available. The 'fun and suspense' with the SD radar I remember in SH1 was detecting an aircraft and going to radar depth, and watching the range on the SD screen, if it got within a certain distance, dive deep to be safe, it if the peak 'stopped' and started to get farther away, indicating it was not heading in my direction, then I could simply surface and continue... SH4 is just "oh goodie, ANOTHER aircraft, heading strait towards my general location..." :roll:

I got TMO downloaded...
er, well, it was already downloaded, kind of forgot it was in a folder I keep stuff for SH series in... at least I stumbled upon it before going to download it...again... :doh:
I forgot that I had downloaded it and decided to play stock first before installing mods... at least I don't have to spend time downloading that big file (again)...

Although I don't like PDFs to much, I guess I might as well dig through it and see what all there is...

[Stealhead]

Well TMO or there is another MOD called FOTRS that may be best for you as if you are wanting casual game play but also want realism you going to not really find that since most of the mods increase the gameplay above the casual gamers comfort zone SH4 is some what of a deep game and about as casual as you will get is the stock form. If the thing that really annoys you is the planes then TMO is your best bet and they changed the tons of planes around Midway too so you dont really have to deal with that issue though you will have to completey change your SH1 tactics as they will get you spotted in TMO. And your ship trouble seems to be from the going to contact reports in stock this can some times lead to a waste of time also the year and part of the Pacific you are patroling can sometimes really be low traffic. Not sure what else to say SH4 is not really the best game for casual game play and i assume when you use this term you are meaning something that does not really take alot of time to sit down and play for an hour or so blow some things up and then go on to something else; this is not SH4s fortie to say the least I bet most members of this forum spend a large protion of thier pc using time playing this game and Sh4 is the type of game that is best played in a spend alot of time enjoying this game for hours on end style. To compound things you say that you want more realism at the same time by more realsim that means better pilots better AI escourts( the stock escourt AI is horable and not a challenge) and ships and so on and these jumps in realism take the game farther away from being casual.So Id say try TMO and FOTRS if you dont like them you say you have done some modding for other games go ahead and try and create some mods that provide the casual/realism that you are looking for as most members of this forum are ore in the hardcore non casual market there is even a section of the forums for modders. Just saying that to me casual is not what comes to mind when i am thinkg of any sim and most certainly not SH4. Not trying cut on you or anything I am just trying to say you might not find the blend you are looking for in this game.In the endmost of the mods make the game harder and are for submarine nuts who simply cant get enough there are guys on this site that have dreams about the next patrol they are going to go on in TMO or RFB or think about what they are going to do when they get off work and load up the last saved game and there are guys that will perform the O'Kane technique so well it would bring a tear to his eye. Like AVG said you will get to the point where you want lots of immersion.If you want to have agood idea what TMO and RFb hold take a read though several pages of their stickies that will give a good idea what they are all about.

[rditto48801]

When I say casual, I mean I want a challenge, but not to much of a challenge. Time is not to much of a problem, although I can often leave SH4 paused for upwards of an hour at a time due to taking breaks to do other things. I can and do sit down and play games for hours on end, although I am more used to more laid back games such as a turn based or RTS game, with the occasional action packed game or FPS tossed in, or even 'classic' games (I have a Sega Genesis and SNES, for example).
so maybe I might be better called a bit of a diversified interest old school gamer rather than a casual gamer?

My SH1 tactics were usually staying on the surface, diving if aircraft were sighted or detected on SD radar. In terms of SD radar, going to radar depth to minimize detection range of the enemy in regards to my sub, and observe the range and the SD radar. If it got to close, immediately dive to at least 200ft, and stay submerged for anywhere from 30-60 minutes before surfacing, or half that if SD is equipped and coming up to radar depth again to peek around with radar and periscope.
In SH4, I had noticed the aircraft's inability to effectively spot me when dived, and usually only dove to 120ft, unless their path put them within 1-2nm, then I would dive to over 200ft.
This is also partly leftover habits as I also have and played a little bit of SH2 and SH3.

I guess one of my main complaints with shipping is the contact reports being a waste of time, because they were almost always to far away or a fair bit away on a heading moving away to have any practical chance to intercept, with rarely any being close to or otherwise heading towards my position. In my last two patrols, I was more likely to blunder into a convoy or task force as I am to see a reported contact that I had a good chance of intercepting. Reduced shipping traffic would not be a bother if it was more evenly spread out and not just "everywhere I am not at or can't easily get to".

I do agree the escorts are rather lame in their sub hunting in SH4.
However, I have seen, or rather heard, them employing deception and baiting tactics while I was trying to hide deep and silent and stationary below the thermal layer, of most escorts leaving while one stays behind while silent, and after the others are a ways off, the one that stays behind starts up their engines at a slow speed, doing a fairly good job of trying to mimic the sound of a merchant ship. :o
Sneaky little buggers, they are. :shifty:

I was reading up on the pdf for TMO, and I see one thing I am not sure if I like. Aircraft being made harder to shoot down. Just how much harder are they to shoot down? As in being harder to hit or being able to soak up more damage?

[Rockin Robbins]

Remember that driving a submarine was "bothersome" for the real sub jockeys. Part of the job of a good simulation is to reproduce that bothersomeness. If you read the cruise logs of submarines, you'll find that they were bothered too. On one cruise Dick O'Kane was being pestered by radar-equipped Japanese airplanes AT NIGHT to the extent that he finally had to leave the area, as he decided that rather than the hunter, he was the hunted here.

The majority of submarine encounters with targets were bad positions, from which no attack was possible. If this was a slow convoy, an end around might be possible, but a fifteen knot tanker or any combination of warships could just motor away and wave bye-bye.

Using TMO, these aircraft can spot you under the surface. My routine, called the yo-yo technique is based on Cdr Eugene Fluckey's USS Barb practice. I'm traveling 100% of the time on the surface at best fuel economy speed of 9 knots. When radar detects a plane, I draw a 5 mile radius circle around my boat. Drawing a line, or a couple of lines from the plane tangent to the circle makes a diagram looking like a demented ice cream cone. If the plane enters that cone, he's headed for my danger zone. As you gain experience, you'll quit drawing the cone and just do the circle.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/SH4Img20-9-2007_2154.46_390.jpg

At that point I still have time. I'll plan my dive so that I'm at or below periscope depth as he crosses that 5 mile circle. I don't touch the throttle or crash dive, just hit "d." I submerge to 150'. As I pass periscope depth I start my stopwatch. When it reaches 5 minutes I stab "s" to surface. I don't stop at periscope depth to look around, I don't stop at radar depth, just surface, because your radar horizon is ten or fifteen flying minutes. For a plane to be in your danger zone now it would have to have been on radar when you submerged. You are 100% safe.

The same can't be said if you stay submerged for 30 minutes. Then you've lost all combat awareness and eventually you'll die for it, surfacing right under a buddy bearing presents that say "BOOM!"

I don't agree that there are too many planes in stock, but I still endorse TMO as the most challenging way to play SH4. To answer your question about the AA gun, in real life the AA guns were for plinking sampans and shooting a bird at the plane who was about to kill you if they caught you on the surface. It was not an effective way to shoot down planes. In stock it is WAY too effective. If battleships could not effectively defend themselves against air attack, why should your submarine, sporting at best a couple of cork popguns be able to do the job. Heck, the Germans made flak boats bristling with AA guns to attempt to get out of the Bay of Biscay. Epic Fail!!! They couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and we shouldn't be able to either. Shaking your fist at them was about as effective as that 20mm.

[Sailor Steve]

WELCOME ABOARD, rditto48801!:sunny: (glad I can copy and paste that handle - I'd never get it right if I tried to type it out)

Listen to your Uncle AVG and Uncle Rockin. It was a long-running debate in SH3 before SH4 was a gleam in some Romanian's eye, but it holds here as well. In real life planes didn't attack as often as they do in these games, but they were a lot deadlier. One was usually enough to ruin a sub captain's day. My experience is mainly with RFB, but TMO has a great reputation for making you feel like you're there, unfortunately. I haven't seen too many planes in RFB either, but I haven't played it as much as I'd like, so my judgement isn't the best here.

I just wanted to let you know you're in good hands and getting good advice here.

[Stealhead]

I am with your not liking the sound of harder AC. A while back when I tired of stock and was looking around I was a bit turned off by TMO based on the deadly planes but i still really wanted to try it based on the various other imporvements and they make the game alot better. Id say try it out(if you havent already) it may be a bit hard at first but I find that the increase in challenge makes the game more enjoyable. For the most part once you find the MOD taht best suits your tastes you will end up really getting into the game more than you planned for some on this site it is somewhat of an addiction. Just know in adavnce that with TMO and RFB the bar is going to get raised a bit from stock so much so that it is more like playing a new game to some extent.Advice is always great but I find that for each skipper his own as well I like to read others ideas and methods and try them out sometimes it works others times anothers idea will flop in your sub. I find it best to take idaes from others and put it into your own system. Some of the best military minds in histroy copied an idea and improved upon it so that it suited thier methods and goals.

[Webster]

I like the idea of reducing the number of aircraft so I don't estimate some areas with 1-2 dozen aircraft passing over each hour.

I don't want the aircraft to be to tough, I like a blend of realism and gameplay, so making all enemy planes effectively elite does not sound very fun to me. Makes those sudden air strikes while refueling at Midway seem like a they could be a suicide run...


try my better air patrols mod, you wont have that constant aircover overhead and while it says it does make pilots more accurate it isnt making them all elite by any means.

it does get rid of most of those pilots that bomb empty water while you sit on the surface in plain sight so it makes them all "efficient" but not "elite"

[rditto48801]

From what I have seen, Betty's can't hit the broadside of anything smaller than a large ship in stock SH4. Heck, I have taken one or two rounds from their defensive machine guns, but I have not ever been hit by an aircraft bombing run during the air raids at Midway, simply because they could never hit me... even when I was going standard speed, in a strait line... :o

I do know that my dual 20mm AA gun, with the specialized gunner with 94 gun rating and calm seas and aforementioned not so good Bettys at Midway, has resulted in a low flying Betty lining itself up to be the perfect sitting duck (within 500yards passing to the rear), being ripped to shreds in just 5 seconds (estimated 75 rounds fired. mostly hits). That's why I am not to sure about aircraft being more durable, because of actual combat conditions or anything other than calm seas should make that kind of accuracy a wishful dream... although it would be nice if they were more of a threat than seeing splashes a few hundred yards away and me going "what the heck are they bombing?"


@ Rockin Robbins

In some areas, air patrols were so freaking heavy if I did come up after 5 minutes, I would be dead, because just waiting 5 minutes would just put me right under the NEXT aircraft heading my way, as in pop up and radar detecting 3-4 aircraft in range, coming/going. Of the ones I did detect, it came out to an estimate of 12-24 aircraft an hour (mainly single contacts, so mainly Bettys and search planes with the occasional pair of contacts/likely pair of fighters) all heading in my general direction, not on any apparent 'aircraft highway' or any actual patrol, just 2-3 paths that all seemed to pass right over my location, with an estimated 75% of them basically heading well within the 5nm of my location based on their courses.


I do try to estimate a 'course' for enemy planes as I dive for radar depth, and their course determines if I stay at radar depth (manually got to about 42ft with the tip of the Gato conning tower sticking out of the water so the SD antenna is just maybe 5ft above the water), or if I should dive down, or wait for them to pass and surface.
I won't mind if I have to alter that slightly habit to either surface if safe or continue to dive down. I do sometimes have a habit of going slow or 1/3 or even killing the engines if aircraft are far enough away, using momentum to keep moving and to minimize the wake the sub was stiring up, since I think a wake was as much of a giveaway of a sub's position as the sub itself was. (if SH4 even takes the wake into consideration)

As for using the AA on Sampans... I got the early Gato, no railing, but a 'bathtub' as others call it... so aircraft (or being really close to a ship) is the only time I get to use the dual 20mm.

Overall, TMO does still seem appealing, since stock is starting to give me the feeling it is less about realism and more about rubber band AI and dynamic difficulty.
I could tolerate planes being deadly if they were rarer and not as near sighted. I may be a bit of a casual gamer at times, but give me a break, as is stock Betty's are less than a threat... especially when it takes several waves of one or two dozen of them each wave and all they get is a few ships. (but then again, the AA at Midway didn't hit much either)

The basic question.
If I install TMO, can I still use my present saves, or will I have to load up the last save in port/office, or will I have to restart the campaign from the start?


@ WEBSTER
Since one of my main complaints is aircraft being to numerous in some areas and apparently being the ancestors of the gunner from Spaceballs, the mod you mention sounds like another viable option.

Just so long as my sub doesn't need a big neon sign that says "I'm over here you blind bomber!" :doh:

[Stealhead]

Before you run TMO(or most any mod) move all of the careers you want to save into home port(the office) then you will be fine. As to your Gato you will have wait not sure your date but some time in 1942 they should cut down the periscope shears a little and they also remove that (bathtub) deck replace it with railing from that point on you will have no trouble using the AA on surface targets. Best bet wait until 1943 then they give you the cut down conning tower and taht extra metal they take off allows for a second AA gun to mounted there as well to add to the fun 1943 also introduces the 40mm Bofors as an AA gun.:rock:that babe pumps hot heavy steel rain upon your foes with ease.:dead: I prefer the Bofors for use on small boats over any other weapon and it is pretty accurate as well once you have had a little pratice. 6 or 7 rounds into a small boat will often kill it. Go with TMO you will really feel like a skipper as the thing they where most concerned with and what was the greatest danger to thier sub was an un-friendly aircraft(and even friendly ones made skippers nervous) also i tjink you will enjoy the improvements made by TMO the little details. Hell try TMO RFB and stock with WEBSTERS mod one of them is bound to please.

[rditto48801]

My game (first and only campaign so far) is on patrol (6th or 7th one, I forget), it is very late July (end of 4th week, iirc), 1942. Due to having to finish a patrol and sink enemy shipping (and trying to find shipping to sink), and crawling back to Pearl to conserve fuel, it will likely be early to middle August 1942 when my sub gets back to home base.

I will be happy to get rid of the bathtub and to get an extra AA gun.
The 40mm will be nice to get when it becomes available. I'll have to put my crazy AA gunner on one if I still have him when I get access to the 40mm. Crazy bugger would probably be the type of person to try and cut down trees with a machine gun... :o

I will try to remember to clear out anything except 'at base' saves before using any mods. It shouldn't be a problem, as after I finish a patrol, I usually make a new save in the office, and then delete all the saves from when I was on patrol, to free up a little disk space and to prevent from getting to long of a save file list.

I got TMO and a few of WEBSTER's mods so far, although I have been distracted away from SH4 for the time being (mainly blowing up ships of the space kind...) so I will have to try them out when I get back to SH4.

[Armistead]

You've got great advice. I'll just add this...Planes should never be a problem as RR said. You have radar and if you always crash dive to 165 feet, you'll be fine. I've only suffered mild damage once that deep. However, I always dive deep, because planes in TMO will bust ya. Still, you can be safe with plenty time left over.

Planes are not a problem as long as you don't fight them.

I play TMO1.7 with RSRD.

RSRD is great if you go to where the battles are. You can run into massive convoys of 50 ships. The key is staying in the shipping lanes. I usually don't even go to the patrol zone. Usually you spend all your time sinking lone merchants. Study where major battles are and go there first. Hanging around in the slot in fall of 42 and you'll get more action than you can stand. I couldn't play without RSRD.

[Rockin Robbins]

And be very careful about mixing Webster's mods and TMO. Only a few mods will work with TMO without tromping all over its features or conflicting in such a way as to ruin the gaming experience. I would confine myself to missions, sub skins and mods specifically cleared for use with TMO, such as the 3000 yard/meter bearing plotter.

Mods are great. Mod soup is not.

[Webster]

And be very careful about mixing Webster's mods and TMO. Only a few mods will work with TMO without tromping all over its features or conflicting in such a way as to ruin the gaming experience. I would confine myself to missions, sub skins and mods specifically cleared for use with TMO, such as the 3000 yard/meter bearing plotter.

Mods are great. Mod soup is not.


what RR says is true, most files in TMO are balanced to work properly with other files so changing some small thing here can have an unintended effect of changing how something else works so there isnt much you can change without having side effects.

however my airplane mod only effects airplanes so its safe to use as long as you understand it will change how all aircraft behave and react to you being detected such as the type and amount of reaction you get specific to the aircraft in the game.

but then that was what you said you were looking for.