Is U-boot bow spray....

[Sag75]

..visible by enemy?

I'm using GWX2.1 and I normally use the deck awash navigation to get closer to merchants.. It really works!

but I'm just guessing if the white of my bow sprays can be detected in the night time...:06: I know, for istance, there are "sensitive" colors to AI.


thanks! :up:

[TarJak]

Yes you can be "seen" or heard when closing with a Merchant fully surfaced as opposed to being decks awash. Your silhouette is also higher giving another detection opportunity to the enemy.

I always approach targets decks awash when making a surface attack.

[Sag75]

Thanks! but what about the white of the spray? I can see my spray in the night watching from the hunted ship..

[Madox58]

The AI does not see colors.
You could have Black Spray and it would make no difference.
Infact?
The AI does not see the wakes at all.

It calculates off of a square object setting.

That setting is the bounding box of an object as seen in 3D.

[Sag75]

Thanks Privateer!

so does AI see only the turret bounding 3D box when I'm on deck awash, and the whole hull box when I'm fully surfaced?

Is this the only parameter in this condition? how night/day affect that?


(sorry for my questions, but I'm curious how SH3 works!)

[makman94]

hello Sag75,

the brightness of the ambientlightcolor (it is inside the envcolors.dats) is responsible for been spotted or not when you are surfaced at night.
in gwx, these values are setted too low and you can almost 'touch' the ship at night without been spotted.'play' with the brightness of these values and you can adjust from what distance to been spotted at night. the foto is from gwx3 with its own environment:

http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh372/makman94/gwx3.jpg

[mookiemookie]

in gwx, these values are setted too low and you can almost 'touch' the ship at night without been spotted.


Says you! Have you ever been in the open ocean at night? It's darker than a welldigger's a**! Don't forget that "Silent" Otto Kretcshmer earned his nickname by being able to position himself undetected in the midst of convoy columns at night.

I'd say GWX has it pretty good on nighttime visibility. If anything, I'd say they're too conservative with it!

[Madox58]

I don't go by which Mod is better or worse at this.
I just know the various settings that control detection.

To stand around and say this Mod or That Mod does it wrong
is a Total waste of good posting space.

Instead, post what and how to Mod the various settings.
They are, after all, pretty simple.

If you want to slam any mods approach to how and why
things were done?

Show something besides an opinion.
We all know about those.
:har:

[makman94]

Says you! Have you ever been in the open ocean at night? It's darker than a welldigger's a**! Don't forget that "Silent" Otto Kretcshmer earned his nickname by being able to position himself undetected in the midst of convoy columns at night.

I'd say GWX has it pretty good on nighttime visibility. If anything, I'd say they're too conservative with it!

mookiemookie, its obvious that you don't know what the brightness of ambientlightcolor is changing. tweaking these values you are not changing the colors of the environment (the nights are still the same)but you are changing the light on the ships-subs

[makman94]

I don't go by which Mod is better or worse at this.
I just know the various settings that control detection.

To stand around and say this Mod or That Mod does it wrong
is a Total waste of good posting space.--neither do i spoke for other mods

Instead, post what and how to Mod the various settings.
They are, after all, pretty simple.---i allready told that if you increase the brightness of ambientlightcolor ,you will be spotted.the more you increase ...the sooner you got spotted.
privateer,i think Sag75 asked how can tweak this and that is my opinion.
maybe gwx team have a reason to set these values there (i don't know if touching these values are conflicting with anything else)

If you want to slam any mods approach to how and why
things were done?---don't understand a word !

Show something besides an opinion.
We all know about those.
:har:

above with green

[mookiemookie]

mookiemookie, its obvious that you don't know what the brightness of ambientlightcolor is changing. tweaking these values you are not changing the colors of the environment (the nights are still the same)but you are changing the light on the ships-subs

No, it's obvious that you don't understand what I'm saying. Being able to almost "touch" a ship at night is perfectly fine when talking about nighttime visibility.

Go out on a ship in the middle of a moonless night in real life and then complain about visibility in GWX. It's clear you haven't done this.

[makman94]

No, it's obvious that you don't understand what I'm saying. Being able to almost "touch" a ship at night is perfectly fine when talking about nighttime visibility.

Go out on a ship in the middle of a moonless night in real life and then complain about visibility in GWX. It's clear you haven't done this.


first of all the foto is with a clear night.so what is your theory about been spotted on clear night?

second, i agree with you about visibility with a moonlessnight.but don't you agree that must be the same for the u-boat too? i mean not to be able to see anything .that would be fair.

and third. i really got tired with all these stories.i tried to help Sag75 and i am involved to all these fighting.maybe some people agree with me and now they know how to tweak this. if you are ok with your game ...thats fine.don't touch anything

bye

[Madox58]

above with green

I hate that Above stuff.
:nope:

Anyway,
I didn't work the sensor stuff for GWX,
but I understand ALL the settings involved.

To change just one?
Can and will most likely affect things you don't want affected.

The Game Engine takes into account many factors at every turn.
Change just one to much and you can get strange
or totally wild results.

No two people here will ever agree this Mod or that Mod is perfect.
If two people ever do?

I'll dance naked on the Empire State Building!
(Never mind! Done that years ago! :har:)

There are more settings the just what you suggest.
;)

[Kubryk]

Regarding one issue from this thread - how can I order decks awash in VIIB (stock SH3)? While completly surfaced my boat is submerged for 5m (wind 5ms). When I ordered 'depth 6m' I was a little deeper, but my crew went inside and diesel was shut down, electric started. Can I have decks under water and still have crew in tower? Frankly I don't see a point of going 6m when I cannot use UZO :)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I hate that Above stuff.
:nope:

Anyway,
I didn't work the sensor stuff for GWX,
but I understand ALL the settings involved.

To change just one?
Can and will most likely affect things you don't want affected.

The Game Engine takes into account many factors at every turn.
Change just one to much and you can get strange
or totally wild results.

No two people here will ever agree this Mod or that Mod is perfect.
If two people ever do?

I'll dance naked on the Empire State Building!
(Never mind! Done that years ago! :har:)

There are more settings the just what you suggest.
;)

Well, makman94 obviously has some sort of axe to grind with GWX and that is okay.

Here is what I mean: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=150987

He certainly doesn't understand how to modify sensors and detection settings in an effective way.

The light-factor issue he discusses is only ONE variable that influences how visual sensors and detection work.

Other factors include:

Size / total surface area of the object to be detected...

Speed of the object to be detected...

Crew quality of the unit attempting to locate the object...

Distance of the object to be detected...

Other atmospheric conditions such as fog...

Night attacks by U-boats in real life were commonplace. Whether makman94 likes it or not, his complaint about "values being setted too low" actually confirms that things we've done for the sake of historical accuracy ARE WORKING PROPERLY within the confines of the game system.:har:

Makman94, I set the sensors values in GWX. I don't recall you being there when any of the development or testing occurred.

With respect, you are viewing things through a tube... and you need a wider lens.

Besides, later in the war when radar becomes commonplace... light factors and atmospheric conditions no longer matter.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Well, makman94 obviously has some sort of axe to grind with GWX and that is okay.

Here is what I mean: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=150987



I don't think he does, he just has a question(s)\input regarding it. I think he is being sincere with this and it is being lost in translation due to the language difference.

With regards to the above thread, as noted I closed it and suggested he reword the thing and post a new one.

[Hanomag]

What the heck is WAC? :hmmm:

[makman94]

Well, makman94 obviously has some sort of axe to grind with GWX and that is okay.---you are wrong at this.

Here is what I mean: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=150987 --the object of this tread is different from our object here

He certainly doesn't understand how to modify sensors and detection settings in an effective way. --i had tweaked the values i mentioned in my own version and till today i hadn't notice any strange conficts.

The light-factor issue he discusses is only ONE variable that influences how visual sensors and detection work.

Other factors include:---ouf ! you had made me run this mission a hundrend times.the new foto is one moment before collision at full speed

Size / total surface area of the object to be detected...--i am tottaly surfaced

Speed of the object to be detected...---i am at full speed

Crew quality of the unit attempting to locate the object...--don't know about this

Distance of the object to be detected...---its one moment before inpact

Other atmospheric conditions such as fog...--its tottaly clear night

Night attacks by U-boats in real life were commonplace. Whether makman94 likes it or not(politeness is one of my rules in life.the point here is not what i like but what is the proper), his complaint about "values being setted too low" actually confirms that things we've done for the sake of historical accuracy ARE WORKING PROPERLY--i don't think that what i am showing here is working properly within the confines of the game system.:har:

Makman94, I set the sensors values in GWX. I don't recall you being there when any of the development or testing occurred.---sorry,i didn't understand what you mean

With respect, you are viewing things through a tube... and you need a wider lens.---again you are wrong here.i am saying that this can be fixed.my opinion is that in clear night you had to be spotted.

Besides, later in the war when radar becomes commonplace... light factors and atmospheric conditions no longer matter---this mission i created is taking place at 1/july/'43 but i don't know if this really matters.

the foto:

http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh372/makman94/gx3-fs.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

The simple fact is that submarines are smaller and lower in the water than the ships they stalked. Though it ocassionally happened differently, for the most part the u-boats spotted merchants and destroyers at night long before the merchants and destroyers spotted them, and the night surfaced attack was considered the best way to do it until the coming of radar.


What the heck is WAC? :hmmm:
War Ace Campaign.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=128050

[Hanomag]

Thanks Steve.. I am so far outside the loop... Its cold here on Pluto! :o

[Coyote88]

I haven't been on the sea at night, but I've been in the mountains and desert far away from any lights and I'll say this: most folks don't realize how dark dark really is.

But I also wonder how effectively SH3 models the difference in height? If there is no moon, but a clear sky, ship silhouettes should not be that hard to see as they blot out the star-filled sky. The submarine, however, has to be spotted against an all-water background and that is a huge advantage for the sub.

[Sag75]

I was been on ferryboats several times in the Mediterranean Sea.. and the night is just black! you can't distiguish the horizon line at all. For this, I think the nights in SH3 are still too light.. but, after all, we have to consider also the playability, right?

[Coyote88]

I was been on ferryboats several times in the Mediterranean Sea.. and the night is just black! you can't distiguish the horizon line at all.

Would that be the case on a night with stars, and on a boat running without lights? (One thing I know SH3 doesn't model, when the searchlights start coming on, is that the watch crew's night vision is ruined for the next 20 minutes.)

[Sag75]

I was younger, I don't remember so well, but I'm sure even if with stars.. you can see only the stars! Of course, I'm talking about nights without moon and in summer when the sky is pretty clear by fog or haze..

[makman94]

hello everybody,
sorry for bringing back this subject but something strange is happening and i am little confused here.
most of you agreed that must not to be spoted at all at clear night(although i disagree a little bit here.when i am saying to be spoted i mean to be spoted when you are at about 100-150 m close)
now,the strange thing: i replace in the mission (that i was showing to you in my previous posts) the small tanker with the Averoff and set the date at 1/november/1940.moving surfaced (silent running) the Averoff is spotting me when i am 7.900 m away !!
well ,that really confused me! whats going with the sensors?
@kpt Lehman:if i agree with you ...then the Averoff why is spoting me (....and from 7.900m away!!)?
what am i missing here ?

ps1:most of you were rude to me becuase i dared to say that something is going wrong with gwx.before you type your message (intending to be rude again)stop for a minute and think what i am saying here.i am not saying that i am right here but i am saying that the sensors are not working as expected.unless i am missing something critical and i really thank you in advance if you explain that to me
ps2:i was 'running' only the gwx3 with no mods in this mission
ps3:here is the mission to see it yourselfs(its called 'test night')(it is jsgme ready):http://hosted.filefront.com/makman94
pics:
http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh372/makman94/night2.jpg
http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh372/makman94/night1.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Hi makman94....the U-boat stealth meter is little more than an indicator, it is not 100% reliable.

The only way you'll know for definite if you have been spotted is if the Averoff fires on you.

[RoaldLarsen]

Regarding one issue from this thread - how can I order decks awash in VIIB (stock SH3)? While completly surfaced my boat is submerged for 5m (wind 5ms). When I ordered 'depth 6m' I was a little deeper, but my crew went inside and diesel was shut down, electric started. Can I have decks under water and still have crew in tower? Frankly I don't see a point of going 6m when I cannot use UZO :)
You can't run decks awash in stock. You need a mod. The supermods all build in the ability. There are other mods and SH3 Commander tweaks you can use to enable decks awash without loading a supermmod. Use this site's search function for posts (not threads) by me and "decks awash" to find a simple modification you can make either by using SH3 Commander or by editing config files.

[makman94]

Hi makman94....the U-boat stealth meter is little more than an indicator, it is not 100% reliable.

The only way you'll know for definite if you have been spotted is if the Averoff fires on you.

hello Jinbuna,
Averoff is start firing at me when i am 2000 m away
but according to kpt Lehman's post ...it shouldn't

[Jimbuna]

hello Jinbuna,
Averoff is start firing at me when i am 2000 m away
but according to kpt Lehman's post ...it shouldn't

I don't see any reference to being spotted from a distance of 2000 metres :hmmm:

Anyway.....depending on all the relevant parameters, I don't see being spotted from a distance of 2000 metres as being unrealistic under certain conditions.

[makman94]

well ,the strange thing here is that the small tanker didn't spot me at all but Averoff spot me from 2000m away at the same conditions.
what am i missing ?
nobody knows??
maybe kpt Lehman(he left the 'sense' that it is not supposed to be spoted at night) is able to give me a more satisfing answer.

[TarJak]

well ,the strange thing here is that the small tanker didn't spot me at all but Averoff spot me from 2000m away at the same conditions.
what am i missing ?
nobody knows??
maybe kpt Lehman(he left the 'sense' that it is not supposed to be spoted at night) is able to give me a more satisfing answer.Maybe the Averoff's crew have alert lookouts, but the tanker's crew were all playing cards in the boiler room?:)

[Jimbuna]

Maybe the Averoff's crew have alert lookouts, but the tanker's crew were all playing cards in the boiler room?:)

Actually that's aa very good point.....the crew rating of said naval vessel could well be higher than that of the merchant.

Go into ME and check them out.

[makman94]

Maybe the Averoff's crew have alert lookouts, but the tanker's crew were all playing cards in the boiler room?:)

LOL....i prefer the invisible situation (small tanker) !
the plan is to ...kill the enemies with lugers pistols
of course,we will put silencers on the lugers....in order not to hurt the silence of night ! :)

bye

[onelifecrisis]

makman,

Following you PM, which directed me here...

I've only skim-read this thread, but here are a few things to keep in mind.

1) Specifically with regards to the Averof example you gave, did it open fire on you? Does it have radar? I ask because if an enemy ship "sees" you with radar, it will move towards you but not open fire until it sees you properly (with visual sensors).

2) In the general case, keep in mind that the height of the visual sensors on the ship (presumably quite high on the Averof) and the veterancy of the crew (also presumably higher) both affect visual detection.

3) There are many other factors as well. The night colours in GWX3 16km (which do affect sensors, and which were set by me) are set in such a way that you can sometimes be spotted by visual sensors on a clear night, especially in calm water, but visual detection on a dark overcast night is highly unlikely, especially in rough weather. FYI, the factors I'm aware of are: the water state (calm = easier to see), the amount of light (less at night, obviously, but also less in overcast weather, in my/GWX environment, both at night and during the day), the observed ship/sub profile (the size and orientation of the ship/sub being observed), the observed ship/sub speed (slower = harder to spot), the observing ship/sub sensor height (ships with higher watch towers can see better), the observing crew veterancy (experienced crews can see better), and the number of observing sensors (more ships = more eyes, and some ships may have multiple visual sensors). There may be others which I can't think of or remember right now.

[BigBadVuk]

One more thing just to ask here:
If im on surface and im using diesels,will DD or any other ship that have passive sonar detect me ?Even if it is pitch black night and there is fog and overcast..?
In other words ,will DD use passive sonar while im on surface or AI waits to sub dives and then "switches on" passive sensors?

[Commander Gizmo]

I may be mistaken, but I believe that passive sonar can only hear things that are under the water. Their sonar is on the bottom of the boat and can't distinguish surface noise, right?

At any rate, I've never been detected at flank on the surface due to desiel engine noise; but the instant you dip under the water they are on you like crazy if you aren't at silent running.

[Hitman]

I'd just like to add some comments to what is being discussed here, and specially to the pictures posted ny makman some time ago:

Yes, you can see the U-Boat yourself close to the ship, and that might lead you to think that the ship should see you too. However, we KNOW positively two things: A) U-Boats were able to attack from as short as 500 metres without being sighted first, B) But most important: In those same conditions, U-Boats were able to see the target and even estimate its speed and AOB!

Hence for gameplay purposes, when we are constraited to a virtual world within program's limitations, we should be able to see the targets reasonably without being spotted ourselves. Forget the picture you see in the screen, as it does not, and will never correspond to an actual situation (And external light, monitor settings and screen resolutions are limits to that). What matters most are correct results, and I think so far in OLC's mods we are getting them :up:

[BigBadVuk]

I remembered now,that ,while reading about last operation of BC Scharnhorst i founded that even if it was dark (polar night condition)and blizzard conditions,they stil managed to use their optical finders to track targets and shoot back.Even if that was very poor ,compared to newest H2S radars and radar controlled artilery systems (cm bandwith)that Brits used,they were not totaly blind.
So when did Zeiss company started to make night binoculars ( for use on purporse during night) and when similar optical equipment was issued to U boats..If this is off topic im sory but this idea question just materialised in my mind reading previos posts.

[Mopy]

I seem to recall an article relating to Brits getting their hands on a pair of UZO binocs, and the captor on testing them commented that compared to the U-Boats, they were (visually) blind at night.

Shame I can't remember where I read it.