Wondering what your habits are...

[squadldr76]

I've looked through the search function and haven't come across this particular question, so if it has been asked before, please forgive me and point me to it. :)

I play both SH3 and SH4, usually alternating back and forth depending on what book I'm reading at the time. Currently, I'm paging through "Silent Victory", so naturally I'm in a fleet boat at the moment, trying my hand at manual targeting (yikes! :doh:). Basically, I'm curious as to how you all play. Does everybody here have their own set patrol routine? Or do you all play to your own taste...

Generally, when I leave port, I'll accelerate x256 to my area, set up a back and forth search pattern and run at no more than x32, doing underwater sweeps about every 6 hours.

I guess, specifically, what I'm asking is what sort of search patterns do all of you use. And in a nutshell, how do you play, going from leaving port to coming home? I'm just wondering how everybody else runs their simulator, maybe picking up a few ideas to change things some.

"He who has the most tricks always wins the audience."

[Fishie]

There was a thread a while ago that really helped me.

There's a max range of your hydrophones. I completely forget what that number is- it's all instinct right now- but what I do is drat a series of circles in the area, and then move to the center of said circles, dive to 100 ft, and shut down, then listen.

Surface, move to next circle or contact, whichever.

[squadldr76]

Do you by any chance remember the thread? Or know of a couple of key words I could use to search for it myself?

[Platapus]

I have to admit that I abuse the TC a lot.

I speed to and from my patrol area and then spend a lot of time IN the patrol area.

I know that I will be missing contacts on the way, but I gets bored.

This is also why I can never play on 100% realism as I always pick unlimited fuel (I know, I suck)

To me, the important thing is to play the game the way you enjoy it :yeah:

Good luck with the manual targeting. It is well worth learning. Manual target makes the game for me.

There are some excellent tutorials on this forum as well as on Youtube.

Once you get Manual Targeting, you will never look back.

Good hunting :salute:

[Fishie]

Do you by any chance remember the thread? Or know of a couple of key words I could use to search for it myself?

I'll find it for ya tonight at home, dude. No worries. I'm pretty sure I have it bookmarked.

Try Hydrophone search tactics for starters.

[vanjast]

I look for a choke point, and then pick a position about 50Nm from that - I sit of one place for 2-4 days ... waiting.

At dawn I go down to 250 ft and every 2 hours have a sweep on the hydrophone.
At dusk I surface, and then goto periscope every 2 hours, for a sweep.
Time compression never above 256.

If nothing happens, after about 2 days, i move on to the next spot say 50-100Nm further on.
:)

[clayp]

I spend most of my time trying to get my crew to go with me......:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[Rip]

I may pick up some of these habits but have tried to constrain myself thus far to doing some stuff because that is what they really did. So I only dive during the day when in the range of known airfields. It seems they also kept moving most of the time so I have resisted the urge to sit in one spot especially from what I have read SH4 uses the same fuel whether you are going 10kts or something under. Not sure about all stop though. Have to check that out this weekend.

I would like to do more night surface attacks but at least using RFB I don't seem to be able to keep from getting detected inside two or three thousand yards and they almost never shot at a target farther away than that.

I think I am on the verge of just developing a strategy that works well for the game and reality be damned. Real world tactics just don't seem to be modeled well enough by the game to be successful. That pushes me back to pondering whether that should effect whether I run RFB or TMO. Maybe it is time I just did a separate install for each. I know I have found myself playing SH3 a lot more lately and SH4 less. I must find a way to get back into the mood of my eye candy laden SH4 because I miss watching sunset/sunrise and such.

[vanjast]

I would like to do more night surface attacks but at least using RFB I don't seem to be able to keep from getting detected inside two or three thousand yards and they almost never shot at a target farther away than that.

The settings don't look right, if you consider that the Uboats were able to get into the convoy lanes on the surface, when the Allied ASW was no better than the Japanese.
I made AI config changes to reflect this... :D

[Torplexed]

Sometimes I just sail to my assigned patrol area, turn off my engines and wait for a contact to show up. Why burn fuel when you don't have to? :D

[squadldr76]

Some very interesting ideas here. Thanks!

Just started a new career in the Asiatic fleet. I think I'll try some of these ideas out. Wish me luck. If anything interesting happens, I'll be back to let you know what my results are...

(BTW, I'm using TMO 1.7 with RSRD if anybody's curious)

[Task Force]

I have actualy never used the tdc... I always think through the attack... Look at the target for a while. and depending on speed, fire when I think it looks good. and Im actualy pretty accurate.:D

I take on distroyers, even in rfb & gwx.

dont go to my grid in sh3.

lost of other stuff that I do, just cant remember.

[magic452]

I set up a zig zag search pattern with each leg about one hour at 10 kns.
and do a manual sonar sweep at the end of each leg, you can find more targets yourself than your sound man can. Later when you get radar you can stretch out your pattern.

Getting to the patrol area watch to see if the game seems to slow down if you are in high TC, some times there is a target you can find with a manual search.

I try to get into choke points like Vanjas does or into shipping lanes.

Good luck and good hunting.
Magic

[Fishie]

here's the link to that thread, bro!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=137458

That's the method I use.

Good hunting! :|\\

[Rockin Robbins]

As long as you have radar, sonar is a waste of time and fuel. Radar has much longer range, gives you precise target positions, not just bearings and it works just fine at 4096x TC. You want to find more targets? STAY ON THE SURFACE AT ALL TIMES unless your live's in danger. The ostrich strategy doesn't work. You aren't safer just because you can't see and you don't see further with your radar antenna under water.

The number of targets you find is directly proportional to the number of square miles of ocean surface you search in 24 hours. That means you stay on the surface at 9 knots with the radar on. Anything else is dereliction of duty. Darn, I'm predictable!:har:

[MonTana_Prussian]

As long as you have radar, sonar is a waste of time and fuel. Radar has much longer range, gives you precise target positions, not just bearings and it works just fine at 4096x TC. You want to find more targets? STAY ON THE SURFACE AT ALL TIMES unless your live's in danger. The ostrich strategy doesn't work. You aren't safer just because you can't see and you don't see further with your radar antenna under water.

The number of targets you find is directly proportional to the number of square miles of ocean surface you search in 24 hours. That means you stay on the surface at 9 knots with the radar on. Anything else is dereliction of duty. Darn, I'm predictable!:har:

I agree 100%. I never submerge except to evade attack,or make a daylight attack on a target. Once you get it,radar is your best friend use it!

I NEVER engage aircraft,the risk is not worth it. I avoid engaging DDs and other escorts unless it is a matter of life and death.

[theluckyone17]

I use 256x-512x TC on my way to the patrol area... 128x, if I think there might be targets in the area. At 128x, my rig doesn't do that *pause, hesitate, skip* bit when I'm near a sizeable target. I consider that a bit of cheat for myself (couldn't care less if the rest of y'all do it).

Once I'm in the area, I generally look for a choke point, and crisscross it, at 128x-256x TC. If there's no choke point, then I'll look for semi-obvious trade routes. If there aren't any, I'll just zigzag my way across the patrol area, hoping to run into anything.

I'm always on the surface, 10 knots. I don't see much benefit to diving every so often, since it'll be pure dumb luck for me to run into something my sonarman can hear but my lookouts can't see.

I'm more of the "my sub is a torp boat that can sink itself to stay out of trouble" crowd. If I'm not trying to be sneaky, I'm on the surface.

Radar? Oh, man... I can't wait 'til radar. I keep playing these early war careers, and either get sunk, or somebody opens up a mod, or I realize I've been playing with the RFB airstrike.cfg with RSRDC... you get the point. Something happens, that makes me think I might as well just restart a career. I hear RFB 2 will take a while, though, so I might actually be able to finish my current career :woot:

[LukeFF]

As long as you have radar, sonar is a waste of time and fuel. Radar has much longer range, gives you precise target positions, not just bearings and it works just fine at 4096x TC.

Especially considering American sonar doesn't have all that great of range, either. A target has to get awfully close to a submerged American boat in order for the hydrophones to pick it up.

[vanjast]

Another thing, that I've been doing lately...
When an escort is tracking you, it will creep slowly.. once it has a lock on you it'll will accelerate and the drop charges.

When it accelerates you flank speed and turn inside of the direction of attack. As he crosses over you go straight... DC's will pop but you should out of the way by that time. Keep the hydrophone on him. He'll suddenly slow down to listen, at this point you go back to 1 knot.

Follow him in the turn and as he pass going 180, you straighten out and creep away.
:D

[Fishie]

um, for the record...I was assuming early war with no surface radar...that's the hydrophone search method I use. Thought that went without saying :haha:

After surface radar is available, I am on the surface 90% of the time.

[abclkhan]

um, for the record...I was assuming early war with no surface radar...that's the hydrophone search method I use. Thought that went without saying :haha:

After surface radar is available, I am on the surface 90% of the time.

bah... that´s why I enjoy much more uboats than fleet boats during the late years of war...
Im not used to employ radar, actually I dont like it. My favorite way of hunting is to dive in a narrow passage / strait and conduct submerged atacks on the ships passing by.
When in patrol zones, i dive and stay at 4knt all the time...
:arrgh!::arrgh!::arrgh!:

[Fishie]

Nice! Hit a narrow strait and go for it, huh?

Ever run out of room to dodge the destroyers? hehehe

[abclkhan]

Nice! Hit a narrow strait and go for it, huh?

Ever run out of room to dodge the destroyers? hehehe


I avoid DDs when I hear them coming :up:

[Armistead]

Mod's play a part. TMO and RFB are both good, but RSRDC is a must. I use the pull down map in TMO to look for shipping lanes. The key to finding ships is staying in the shipping lanes. My favorite shippings lanes are the two between Tawi Tawi and Joli..maybe it's Jolo...but in those narrows I've found the best shipping, including a 50 ship convoy.

I'm a surface runner. Radar works, so stay on the surface.

With RSRD, if you know your battle dates and locations..are care to peek in the ME, you can find all the large TF. Nothing like ambushing the large TF in the San Bern straits.

To evade dd's, I go much deeper than default. I thought the game programmed charges to go poof at around 300 ft, but weather and sea conditions seemingly affect that and how sonar works. I was at 500 and one depth charge was a bullseye and sunk me. So now I use depth and evasion tactics I would use in shallow water.

Planes....I use to ignore them and for the most part still do until I get two special gunners with high experience I'll shoot singles. Flank speed and weaving, so far I've never been hit.

Still, I alter careers. One career I play 100% no cams or contacts, another contacts and cams on for SS's. When I play for real....I play much different.

[uusmario]

After one convoy attack gone bad in late 1943 (after improvements on Mk14) and I was spotted and attacked by DD's, I found out that if you position your sub well, keep a cold nerve and maybe have a little bit of luck, it's not hard to sink a DD. Sank 4 in less then 7.minutes (11 DD total in that patrol) .Haven't evaded DD since, hadn't been destroyed nor dammaged.

[swmicros]

I like to stay in the lanes as well. Assuming I have radar, I draw 20nm circles (~radar range) along the lane and follow the edges of the circles for my search pattern, back and forth on the surface up the shipping lane. That way I'm convering about a 40 mile swath of the path the ships are likely to take. Upon sighting I drop to "decks awash" depth (35 - 40 ft depending on waves, probably deeper than real depth as I am chest deep in salt water :06:) and plot course, speed and intercept (yah MOBO! :up:). Once the attack is planned, I get into position, going to scope depth as soon as possible, and listen on sonar. I like a Cromwell attack best if possible, and when the victim is within 5 - 10 degrees of shoot bearing, up scope, and it's fishies away! :arrgh!:

I also like to shoot from stern to bow, The sequence is "Wait for juicy part to cross wire" [ENTER] (fire torps), W (next tube), [RIGHTorLEFTARROW] (move scope ahead a bit), rinse & repeat.

Thanks to you all here who helped me figure all that out! :sunny:

Love this game! Love this (SUBSIM) community! :rock:

[vanjast]

Here's why I search for my targets with sonar.(sorry about the big picture - Not sure how to shrink it here)
Although not modelled in the game - on a good day a radar aerial @ 20M (60ft) would not be able to see surface object of futher than ~11miles (~10Nm), whereas sonar on a good day can 'see' a lot further.

On a bad day radar would be worse... Remember Radar is Line-Of-Sight or straight line views so it cannot see surface objects over the horizon, whereas sound travel does not have this restriction.
:03:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/24/How_far_away_is_the_horizon.png

[swmicros]

Very insteresting Vanjast!

How far out can you expect to pickup sonar targets? How does depth and speed effect it?

I was playing around with 100% realism the other night, and failing miserably at detecting anything (even though I knew it was there, because I MADE THE MISSION! :dead: DOH!

Thanks for the enlightning chart!

[vanjast]

Chart is from Wiki.

The general theory is that a single contact would only be a few Nm, but a convoy creates a larger volume of noise and it is possible to pick it up over the horizon, where the radar cannot see. Radar can of course pick up aircraft flying at higher levels, but then transmitting radio (or radar), as we know, is a dead give away of your position.

I'm not sure of the game modelling of the radar, but judging from SH3 and SH4 the hydrophone/sonar is not that bad. UBI 'professed' that the devs did a lot of research into all aspects of the game, which I can agree with. Not everything is accurate though as proven by the forum collective work done.

The range of sonar I think is probably difficult to model, as there are many variables, but I'd think for a good day, 10Nm (30Nm) would be ok for a single ship (convoy)
:)

[Rockin Robbins]

Here's why I search for my targets with sonar.(sorry about the big picture - Not sure how to shrink it here)
Although not modelled in the game - on a good day a radar aerial @ 20M (60ft) would not be able to see surface object of futher than ~11miles (~10Nm), whereas sonar on a good day can 'see' a lot further.

On a bad day radar would be worse... Remember Radar is Line-Of-Sight or straight line views so it cannot see surface objects over the horizon, whereas sound travel does not have this restriction.
:03:


Sounds great, but it's wrong. Otherwise Fluckey would have operated this way. He didn't. By maintaining 10 knot surface speed, you search many times more square miles of ocean surface in a given time than you can at dead slow underwater listening with sonar. The number of targets you find is directly proportional to the number of square miles you search in a given time.

It's just a numbers game, but it's much more involved than how far you can see to the horizon. Fluckey figured he could search 10 times the area of ostriches just with visual high periscope technique on the surface and NOT using the radar at all. Considering his results compared to other sub captains in the mid 1944 to end of war era, I believe him.

[stormbird]

At the moment i am playing with the realism turned down a fair bit (have done this to have the range to 'explore').

So i make a b line straight for the patrol area usually at x500 or x1000 where i then get the patrol out of the way. i usually just set up a zigzag and cross section in the patrol area and set the x256 then all i do is watch the clock at every hour i dive to 30m have a quick listen then surface and continue.

As soon as patrol task is done i head straight for where ever i want to explore (at the moment am exploring jap mainland harbors) as i get closer to japan i once again start diving every hour to listen. When aircraft start gettin to much of a problem i spend all day submerged (with a few surface runs to recharge and replenish oxygen) and all night on the surface.

The key to doing this in never report back to base, if you report back after completing the patrol they will give you another task and another and another making you spend time bouncing around the empty seas off indonesia and the philippines. Sailing to Japan is heaps more profitable you can always report in when almost out of torps and get one last patrol for on the way home. :arrgh!:

[MonTana_Prussian]

Sounds great, but it's wrong. Otherwise Fluckey would have operated this way. He didn't. By maintaining 10 knot surface speed, you search many times more square miles of ocean surface in a given time than you can at dead slow underwater listening with sonar. The number of targets you find is directly proportional to the number of square miles you search in a given time.

It's just a numbers game, but it's much more involved than how far you can see to the horizon. Fluckey figured he could search 10 times the area of ostriches just with visual high periscope technique on the surface and NOT using the radar at all. Considering his results compared to other sub captains in the mid 1944 to end of war era, I believe him.

Totally agree RR. I never seach sumerged,even before I have radar,as you said,you can cover so much more ocean on the surface more efficiently.:up:

[vanjast]

Sounds great, but it's wrong. Otherwise Fluckey would have operated this way. He didn't. By maintaining 10 knot surface speed, you search many times more square miles of ocean surface in a given time than you can at dead slow underwater listening with sonar. The number of targets you find is directly proportional to the number of square miles you search in a given time.

:D Kind Sir!.. I must interject...and disagree...
My 3 day 'spending spree' below is from sitting in one place and listening at 200 ft when not active.
http://www.vanjast.com/SHPics/Locations2.JPG

:03:

[Rockin Robbins]

Careful, vanjast. I'm not saying that your way will never produce results. I'm saying that all things being equal and easy three to ten times more targets are developed using the yo-yo technique.

Sure, if you submerge in a choke point and listen for three days you will develop some targets. But look at your disadvantage. You've spent lots of your battery wasting energy. When the battle comes, you are already disadvantaged. You have less endurance underwater and you are slowed down on the surface because your batteries aren't charged up. You will also double your fuel consumption for no gain.

However, having developed the same target with yo-yo, my batteries are fully charged, I can go 20 knots or more on the surface and have max endurance and speed underwater. My sub is much more combat ready than yours, and it's that way 100% of the time.

None of this is my idea. It's all from Capt. Eugene Fluckey of the USS Barb. He didn't even START his career until the middle of 1944. He's #3 on the all time tonnage list with 96,628 tons, all his tonnage coming from a time period when the majority of the boats were ostriches, returning to base empty handed except for a load of unused torpedoes. I'll follow his plan any day!

[squadldr76]

Careful, vanjast. I'm not saying that your way will never produce results. I'm saying that all things being equal and easy three to ten times more targets are developed using the yo-yo technique.

So, I suppose my next question here would be "what effective search patterns are there and what do they look like?" By a yo-yo pattern, I'm assuming you mean going back and forth, right? What sort of distance would your main and connecting legs be? And are there other effective patterns too?

I've always waffled back and forth about what distances I should use.

[vanjast]

I'd knew you'd be back :yeah:... Just having fun!! :D

Actually battery wastage is not more than about 8% for a whole days submergence, and during the night being on the surface for a few hours tops this up.

Diesel usage for recharging I take as an equivalent to travelling around at 2 knots on the surface, as one loses 2 knots off the top end. I haven't tested this but I don't think this diesel usage would be the equivalent of standard speed.

If a target is picked up on sonar then it's surface and get into position, During this surface run the batteries are recharged to about 95% (or higher depending on the situation) which is more than enough power to escape.

My (Captain Kirk's) patrol methods (soon to be in hard cover) is that I'm going to use diesel whether I'm running around on the surface, or for a lot of recharging. Either method requires optimisations to increase the range and effectiveness.
Book Title >> 'Captain Kirk - He goes where few dare to go'... (The Heads )

:salute:

[magic452]

@ Squadldr76
Yo-Yo is a patrol method where you stay on the surface at 9 or 10 kns. and only dive when necessary to avoid planes and surface as soon as possible. If your playing TMO go to 180 feet as the evil planes can see you at less sometimes. If the planes are too frequent than I will stay under longer at 1 kn. This is more common in stock and I play TMO.

Ostriches patrol submerged during the day and use sonar to find targets,
they do this to avoid airplanes.

I agree with Rocken Robins about the yo-yo method, cover as much area as you can but not waste fuel, charging batts uses a lot of fuel.

As for search patterns. Early war I use a "Z" shaped 45° zig zag pattern across a shipping lane, I make each leg about one hour @ 10kns. and do a manual sound check at the end of each leg. You can hear far more ships than your sound man can. I have found lots of good targets that my sound man would have missed. I have had great success with this method. Feb. 1942 patrol with 73,000 tons (2 CVs) and two torpedoes left.

Once you get surface search radar than you can forget the sound checks and rely on radar. You can also stretch out your zig zag pattern to 5 or 10 miles. Hope this helps

Magic

[vanjast]

Both methods have their merits, but a lot of things are probably not modelled.

The way I see it (the pro-hydrophone lobby :D ):
- covering a large area is no guarantee of meeting a large number of ships.
- Waiting submerged also doesn't guarantee this, but more fuel is conserved :03:
- Choosing the right area to patrol or wait while submerged helps - it's a law of averages.
- ASW aircraft crew used binocs, the same as the ship/sub crews - They can see you if you can see them. Being on the surface and spotted would encourage a sub hunt (not in the game)
- radar is line of sight and only has the advantage in bad weather.
- Passive sonar is just as good as radar for the surface ranges concerned, if not better.
- The obvious advantage radar holds is in detecting aircraft.
- The main radar disadvantage, as with active sonar, is the emmision of detectable signals. (Uboats used radar detection to avoid ASW).

AND of course, last but not least, a subs biggest weapon then as it is still today, is stealth - why throw this weapon away by 'advertising' to your enemy.

You move in undetected, hit hard, and run like hell.

There you go.:yeah:

[MonTana_Prussian]

<You move in undetected, hit hard, and run like hell.>

True enough,but this can be accomplished on the surface as well,submerging to make the final approach:D

[vanjast]

True.... many ways to 'skin a cat'.

I think although people advocate different methods, one uses a combination of all ideas, detemined by the current situation.
The end result being much the same.
:D

[Snorkle]

Ehrm... playing stock 1.4, there are contacts galore. In my experience, I'm almost always shot of torps and shells way before I reach the patrol area unless I discipline myself not to examine every lead. Too many ships, too few torps! I scored 110K worth of maru's in one mission and ended up having to make huge detours around more comers.

And if I sit perfectly still somewhere I will still be served a healthy platter unless I'm totally out in the sticks.

BTW, where do I find TMO, RFB, RSRD et al and do they apply to 1.4?
NM, I found the download section. Still need to know whether these popular mods apply to 1.4?

[vanjast]

I think you can call my method the 'Bugs Bunny' method...

I sit for a day or 2, surfacing to replenish air, etc.. - If there is no action, move on about 50-100Nm and do the same again.

The idea is to find a choke point, even if it means sitting outside a port. the game is not intelligent enough to localise 'danger areas', so one can get away with this. Once you find a good point, 'milk' it for all it's worth.

RR should be here any moment :D to discuss his preferred method.

Both have their merits, and most probably a combination of both would be the best deal.
:03:

[Rockin Robbins]

Vanjast jigs, I troll.:salute: