Teh Nazis!

[Bewolf]

Kay, folks, old topics, new questions.

Nearly 65 years have passed since world war 2 came to an end. A lot has changed since then. Society in western worlds alltogether have changed dramatically. Communism broke down, Germany and all of Europe got reunited, NATOs borders expanded to the east and the EU is growing to be a highly critizised, but economically potent power. The new contestants of the world are the US, the EU, China and India, it looks like the whole far east will grow to be a whole new center of civilisation, similiar to former times. East vs. West will grow to whole new dimensions.

But the more the world changes, and the more we move away from these dark times, the more ppl talk about the Nazis. Not just in Germany, where this has been an old topic, but abroad as well. Wherever you look, when having discussions, Nazis are never that far away. be it documnetaries running on TV 24/7, highlighting every single little aspect of the Nazis, in discussions and debates, no matter the topic, you bet someone sooner or later pulls the Nazi club. Tourists, especially US and british tourists coming here are looking for remants of WW2, they are not interested in the more then 2000 years of history that happend on these lands or the cultural offerings today at all.

The german army especially appears to be highly fascinating to ppl all around. German technology, german profession, all more or less contributed to the Nazis, despite their basics having been developed much sooner. Outside Germany the Waffen SS is highly praised on a regular basis.

The inability or lack of differentation between Nazis and the Germans in general have a couple very negative effects. I am talking about my own country here and it's youth.
After decades of school indoctrination nazis=germans=bad, coupled with the fact that even today, after all these years of apologies, reperations and humility there are still a lot of countries using the Nazi comparisons to subdue german national interests within the EU and abroad on both a political and a private level, ppl here got tired of the same blames all around. Whenever I talk to folks under 30, and even more so under 20 (I am often contacting people commenting on youtube, just to find out what made them post their entries), you seriously notice they "want" to be proud of their country, but feel they can't be, despite high improvements in this regard over the last couple years. The last highpoint of Germany in their eyes, and proven by all those TV shows and comments on youtube videos, was the reign of the Nazis. And no matter what, that curse will still follow them, so why not just live up to the reputation, as it obviously does not go away anyways? Especially eastern Europe makes sure to remind us of that since the wall came down, coming late to the european party having to catch up on what they missed the last 50 years.

Since the financial crisis hit bottom here, there once again is a feeling of world betrayal, conspiracies to bring down the german economy by, guess, the wallstreet and all the prejudices concerning the involvement of jews in this. This is not a mass phenomenon, but there certainly is a raise in such perceptions in certain circles of society.

Al in all I consider this a problem. A big one. I love this country, I got to live with the responsebility burdened upon the following generations by that special past, but seriously, it is hard to uphold principles when everybody makes the connection that germans and Nazis are all the same.

How to deal with such a development?

[kiwi_2005]

Apart from skin heads here in NZ we have Maori gangs who idolize the nazis the 'Mighty Mongrel Mob' who greet each other with the Sieg Heil salute and wear the swastika emblems. I just don't get it why they get into the nazi way i suppose cause the nazis were the bad guys so its fits them well. To me though when ever i see these guys doing their thing its like WTH wrong skin color bro! :haha:


Good timing, ANZAC day 25th April :salute:

[Torplexed]

Yes...it's amazing how centuries of history gets overshadowed by one dramatic decade. I don't know if I have good answer for you. I've often felt that if the Nazis had never existed we probably would have had to invent them. They have become the ultimate cultural shortcut for the bad guy. Our favorite dispersion to cast upon any figure we don't like from an overbearing boss to unfavored politician. Somehow substitutes like Caesar or Genghis Khan don't quite cut it.

[Bewolf]

Yes...it's amazing how centuries of history gets overshadowed by one dramatic decade. I don't know if I have good answer for you. I've often felt that if the Nazis had never existed we probably would have had to invent them. They have become the ultimate cultural shortcut for the bad guy. Our favorite dispersion to cast upon any figure we don't like from an overbearing boss to unfavored politician. Somehow substitutes like Caesar or Genghis Khan don't quite cut it.

True, and I am pretty sure in a millenium the Nazis will have left the same mark on western civilisation as did the mongol invasions into Europe even hundrets of years later.

Nevertheless, the obsession with the Nazis from so many sides at the same time is going over the top. It's not healthy anymore. If there ever was a meaningful purpose for the word "evil", it most perfectly suits the Nazis.

And the worst part is, they are directly connected to what people all over the world obviously think of the Werhmacht and their equipment. Peeking into international boards and discussions of the second world war upon the less educated people, one could think Germany of that time period was some kind of european Sparta, tough, cruel but efficient. One wonders if there will be another "300" like movie if just enough time passes. And this is all contributed to the Nazis.

This is what is so worrysome about this development. As younger folks especially get fascinated with such a view on german history.

So, with other words, the germans of today have to deal with the blame and shame, less by now from western europe and the US, the more from eastern europe (it has to be stated, they had to suffer so much more then westernn europe, so it is understandable to a degree), while the Nazis themselves from that time get more and more credit, even if only through the achievements of the german army and science.

That this leads to pretty much warped preceptions of where to aim political ambitions, especially with the younger generations that feel less and less responsible for what happend, should be obvious.

[Bewolf]

Apart from skin heads here in NZ we have Maori gangs who idolize the nazis the 'Mighty Mongrel Mob' who greet each other with the Sieg Heil salute and wear the swastika emblems. I just don't get it why they get into the nazi way i suppose cause the nazis were the bad guys so its fits them well. To me though when ever i see these guys doing their thing its like WTH wrong skin color bro! :haha:


Good timing, ANZAC day 25th April :salute:

Now that sounds kinda surreal O.o

But it's odd anyways. Look at Poland, look at Russia, countries that had to endure the most in the german onslught. Nevertheless these countries sport some of the most numerous and active neo nazi scenes today.
Why on earth? What is it with the Nazis and fashism that makes it so successfull with ppl that even after the Holocaust and a "world" war it holds so much credit? Even the US has copied many elements of this era, not just military strategies, tactics and procedures, but a really unhealthy "hero" culture just like in the third Reich (firefighters, military, police, etc.). This whole "work harder and make money or die" kinda approach to life, which in many ways reminds me of the social darwinism thesis used by the Nazis to justify their wars against other nations and races (survival of the fittest).

From all ppl I got into contact with, be it through personal communication or their media (TV, comics, newsarticles etc.) it appears only the japanese are making a real distinction between Germany with all of it's history and the 12 years of Nazi dictatorship, not attributing Germany's successes to that bunch of idiots.

So, in light of this, how can anyone prevent this happening again if it has such an enourmous impact on the world even today.

[TDK1044]

I think, Bewolf, that if people are being honest and not politically correct, at the back of a lot of people's minds is the fact that the Nazis were a relatively small number of Germans, who were lead by an Austrian and allowed to flourish and achieve great power in your Country.

Now, I know that's a very simplistic statement. I also know that it's completely unfair to judge the Germany of today based on events that took place 70 years ago. But all it takes is a news report showing a handful of misguided kids in a major German city dressed as Nazis, to set this ball rolling again.

I think in the end, most sensible people will recognize the positive contribution that Germany has made to the world since the end of WWII in areas like engineering, rather than focus on the Nazis.

Without German rocket engineers, NASA would never have achieved landing a man on the moon in 1969, and the world would not have benefitted from the technological advances that came from the space program.

So, here's to Mercedez, BMW, VW, Boris Becker, Steffi Graff and Heidi Klum! Keep em coming!!!!:)

[Bewolf]

Haha, true.

But unluckily not really the point I am trying to make. Sorry if that did not come across well enough.

Hm, how to say this. Look, what the world thinks of Germany and it's contributions after WW2 is one thing, we had this discussion many times and will have in the future, too.

The problem I am talking about is the following...how do you lead a young generation of germans into a way that they can a) be proud of their country and b) do not have to refer to the Nazis to find any sort of praise.

As long as the rest of the world does not stop glorifying german achievements in the name of the Nazis whilst at the same time making the life of contempory and future germans harder.

The account is something like this:

1. Nazis, most evil ppl on the planet, but also highly praised.

2. Modern young Germans, still the most evil ppl on the planet, going by their selective perception of the masses on the internet mostly, but without the praise the Nazis get. Basicly "you suck, but the Wehrmacht rules". This in turn makes a lot of young germans go "ok, so we suck? no, you suck more, pi** of, (insert provocateur of your choice)". Thanks to the internet they grow up with such a perception of themselves and the world alike.

Notice the problem, especially in times of crisis like this?

[SteamWake]

But the more the world changes, and the more we move away from these dark times, the more ppl talk about the Nazis.

The only place I hear anyone discussing Nazi's are internet forums or on capitol hill when comparisons are made.

Maybe in EU its a topic de jour but I dont see it here in the US.

[TDK1044]

Haha, true.

But unluckily not really the point I am trying to make. Sorry if that did not come across well enough.

Hm, how to say this. Look, what the world thinks of Germany and it's contributions after WW2 is one thing, we had this discussion many times and will have in the future, too.

The problem I am talking about is the following...how do you lead a young generation of germans into a way that they can a) be proud of their country and b) do not have to refer to the Nazis to find any sort of praise.

As long as the rest of the world does not stop glorifying german achievements in the name of the Nazis whilst at the same time making the life of contempory and future germans harder.

The account is something like this:

1. Nazis, most evil ppl on the planet, but also highly praised.

2. Modern young Germans, still the most evil ppl on the planet, going by their selective perception of the masses on the internet mostly, but without the praise the Nazis get. Basicly "you suck, but the Wehrmacht rules". This in turn makes a lot of young germans go "ok, so we suck? no, you suck more, pi** of, (insert provocateur of your choice)". Thanks to the internet they grow up with such a perception of themselves and the world alike.

Notice the problem, especially in times of crisis like this?


I think they need to be taught the difference between perception and reality, Bewolf...especially as it relates to the internet. I also think that they need to be taught to accentuate the positive about being a modern, young German.

Here's a strange analogy for you. Take a 17 year old German computer hacker who uses his talent to create a nasty, malicious Trojan, with which he manages to infect millions of computers accross the world and causes great distress to millions of people.

To many people, he's a modern day Nazi seeking to dominate and inflict pain any way he can.

Now take the same 17 year old German, and have him send a Trojan that installs iteslf on millions of windows based computers all over the world and rewrites some Microsoft code and makes people's computers run 50 percent more efficiently.

He's a hero. Nazis? What Nazis? Never heard of them.:)

[Platapus]

Based on my very limited and unscientific polling (talking with my co-workers/friends), here is what I am hearing:

- People seem to have no problems separating Nazis and German citizens of today. It never comes up about mixing Nazis and today's German citizens. Unless we are talking about splinter groups and they are always identified as splinter groups and not the underlaying norm.

- People are slowly recognizing that during the 1930's - 1940's not all German citizens were Nazis. This is coming slowly, but it is a positive change.

- People still have a hard time differentiating between the Nazi's and the German military during WWII.

- Because of this, when people think about WWII Germany, they think Nazi. That is probably not going to change.

- However, that being said, there is simply no way to ignore the Nazi movement when discussing German history. WWII is still a really big chunk of the public's perception of history. And the Nationalistic movement was a big part of German history.

- And let's be honest. For many people WWII history is a lot more interesting then Revolution of 1848. I would imagine that many European countries also have tourist focus on WWII (few seem to remember WWI but that is another peeve of mine).

- One of the cultural traits of Americans (and I am sure of other cultures) is our ability to forgive and move on. My co-workers/friends seem to have no problem separating Nazi Germany from Democratic Germany. We remember the Nazis of course, but that was a "different" Germany. We have the same perceptions of Japan. "Used to hate em, now like em. Let's move on and make money!"

- The perceptions of Germany are changing. Remember it has only been two generations since the Second World War. We are only in our third "post-WWII generation". Even in the current generation, I see signs that WWII is becoming "ancient history" and like other "ancient histories" is becoming interesting only to history buffs.

Just my unscientific observations.

[Onkel Neal]

The problem I am talking about is the following...how do you lead a young generation of germans into a way that they can a) be proud of their country and b) do not have to refer to the Nazis to find any sort of praise.


Same way we manage with the history of slavery and genocide against the red indians. Just have to deal with it as a part of history and move on. People will always remind you of it. It was a different time and a different people. Personally, as a young man growing up in the 60s and 70s and looking back at WWII and contrasting it with the post-war German attitudes, I always thought the Germans honorably atoned for the war guilt by accepting it. That should not last forever, and I don't think it has. But an event as massive as WWII and Nazi aggression cannot easily be shrugged off.





- People are slowly recognizing that during the 1930's - 1940's not all German citizens were Nazis. This is coming slowly, but it is a positive change.

- People still have a hard time differentiating between the Nazi's and the German military during WWII.

- Because of this, when people think about WWII Germany, they think Nazi. That is probably not going to change.


Exactly why dictatorships in the modern era should not be allowed. Dictatorships, even in pissant countries, can lead to things like world wars. German people did not resist the Nazi political takeover very stenuously, and many Germans supported the Nazis. When Hitler grabbed the emergency powers, the people should have acted.

I know, a very simple view on things, but it doesn't take a lot of complexity to accomplish what the Nazis did.

[Platapus]

German people did not resist the Nazi political takeover very stenuously, and many Germans supported the Nazis. When Hitler grabbed the emergency powers, the people should have acted.

I know, a very simple view on things, but it doesn't take a lot of complexity to accomplish what the Nazis did.

Have you had a chance to read:

When Democracy Failed:The warnings of history
by Thom Hartmann

A very interesting paper describing exactly what you were posting.

[Bewolf]

In principle very true. The problem is, by todays standarts most children have ready access to the internet, youtube beeing on top of their usage. Lots have their first real contact with the nazi topics out of school within the internet, having a direct impact on their own perception of this era and all that comes with it today. I mean, I got the full blow of "you nazi!" often enough myself, but I only got into the internet "after" I already developed my own opinions about this topic, as is the case with most folks above the age of 30 here. That is not the case with the younger generation anymore, who are thrown into the barrel and often enough lack the wisdom to cope with this topic accordingly.

That goes so far as that these younger folks accuse their own government and other nations of lying about their past and using the Holocaust as an excuse to stay in control (this goes hand in hand with the impression of most germans of their government beeing utterly ineffective and too full of compromises, bad in a society that loves precision and the slogan "if you do something, do it 100% or not at all".) The support of democracy in general has already suffered by that within these age groups. Cry Wolf often enough and nobody will listen to it anymore, or worse, may try to repeat it.

And unless you make use of censorship and siteblocking on a big scale, that won't change anytime soon.

As I do not have any influence on the governments policy towards school and education, what would you guys suggest doing if you were to go active against this trend?

[Platapus]

The Frau came to this country in the late 1980's. When she was in school in Germany during the 1960's, WWII was not taught in her history classes. German history stopped after WWI. Current history was picked up in the 1950s but that was taught in her civics classes.

There was no denial or covering up of the Nazi history, it just was not discussed. In many ways this mimics the American school systems concerning the treatment of Indian Tribes in the 19th and 20th centuries. It is kinda glossed over (at least it was in the 60's when I was a punk).

So I imagine every country/culture has its history they are not proud of, and often this history is not taught in schools. As a history nut, I disagree with this concept. To me history is history -- the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Knowing the darker aspects of American history does not make me like America less. America has done a lot of bad things, a lot of good things, and a lot of mediocre things. That's all part of our history. To conceal any part is doing a disservice to our children.

To me, it is important to recognize that my country is imperfect. Knowing this, helps me understand the imperfections of other countries/cultures.

There are many who would disagree with me on this.

[CaptHawkeye]

Yeah, i'd hate to break it to you folks, but Germany as a country was the whole reason the Nazis came to power in the first place. They not only set them in power but openly aided the Holocaust and other atrocities. However, even the German people could admit they were wrong.

The statement, "not all Germans were nazis" is totally useless. It's true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they did nothing to stop the Nazis either. Even when it was within their means to do so. And don't act like the Nazis tricked Germany either, Hitler laid out everything he intended to do step-by-step in Mein Kampf. The ultimate reality is Germany wanted to one-up the allies for the embarrasment of World War 1 and they were fully willing to embrace a violently nationalist and expansionist regime that never once hid its genocidal intentions.

Do you get what i'm saying here? I'm saying Germany let the Nazis take over just because of a 20 year old grudge.

So I don't understand what compels people to claim the Nazis and Germans were so separate from one another. Even when the German people themselves admitted they were horribly wrong. What are you defending here? People who say "we didn't know" are universally looked down upon in the country too. German citizens who claim that the crimes of the holocaust were unknown are tatamount to holocaust denial. What about the White Rose movement, Rossenstrasse protests, and Oskar Schindler? Fear of Nazi reprisal didn't stop them. Traudl Junge actually addmitted on her death bed that she spent her entire life making excuses for herself and Germany over what the Nazis did.

The Wehrmacht is far from blameless in war crimes. They may have contributed more to the death of western slavic peoples than any other cause in history. Even guys like Guderian could admit the Wehrmacht played the Nazi game.

So again, what are you defending?

[Platapus]

It's true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they did nothing to stop the Nazis either.

I would be very interested in the citation that supports this.

[Bewolf]

The Frau came to this country in the late 1980's. When she was in school in Germany during the 1960's, WWII was not taught in her history classes. German history stopped after WWI. Current history was picked up in the 1950s but that was taught in her civics classes.

There was no denial or covering up of the Nazi history, it just was not discussed. In many ways this mimics the American school systems concerning the treatment of Indian Tribes in the 19th and 20th centuries. It is kinda glossed over (at least it was in the 60's when I was a punk).

So I imagine every country/culture has its history they are not proud of, and often this history is not taught in schools. As a history nut, I disagree with this concept. To me history is history -- the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Knowing the darker aspects of American history does not make me like America less. America has done a lot of bad things, a lot of good things, and a lot of mediocre things. That's all part of our history. To conceal any part is doing a disservice to our children.

To me, it is important to recognize that my country is imperfect. Knowing this, helps me understand the imperfections of other countries/cultures.

There are many who would disagree with me on this.

In principle, agreed. But I can only talk for myself here, but when I was in school from 1986 to 1997, this Nazis were ontop in some class nearly every single year, be it history, german or politics class. To a degree it overshadowed everything else.

Then again this was gradually implemented only after the 68 revolts.

[Bewolf]

Yeah, i'd hate to break it to you folks, but Germany as a country was the whole reason the Nazis came to power in the first place. They not only set them in power but openly aided the Holocaust and other atrocities. However, even the German people could admit they were wrong.

The statement, "not all Germans were nazis" is totally useless. It's true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they did nothing to stop the Nazis either. Even when it was within their means to do so. And don't act like the Nazis tricked Germany either, Hitler laid out everything he intended to do step-by-step in Mein Kampf. The ultimate reality is Germany wanted to one-up the allies for the embarrasment of World War 1 and they were fully willing to embrace a violently nationalist and expansionist regime that never once hid its genocidal intentions.

Do you get what i'm saying here? I'm saying Germany let the Nazis take over just because of a 20 year old grudge.

So I don't understand what compels people to claim the Nazis and Germans were so separate from one another. Even when the German people themselves admitted they were horribly wrong. What are you defending here? People who say "we didn't know" are universally looked down upon in the country too. German citizens who claim that the crimes of the holocaust were unknown are tatamount to holocaust denial. What about the White Rose movement, Rossenstrasse protests, and Oskar Schindler? Fear of Nazi reprisal didn't stop them. Traudl Junge actually addmitted on her death bed that she spent her entire life making excuses for herself and Germany over what the Nazis did.

The Wehrmacht is far from blameless in war crimes. They may have contributed more to the death of western slavic peoples than any other cause in history. Even guys like Guderian could admit the Wehrmacht played the Nazi game.

So again, what are you defending?

Details aside, in general I wholeheartly agree. But that is not the point, really.
You can't make ppl change their ways by constantly reminding them of their sins. Especially when 64 years after that a younger generation is still held accountable for these crimes, while wherever they look the Nazis are praised as the greatest soldiers of all time. Something goes seriously wrong there.

[FIREWALL]

I have no proof but a gut feeling that your average German in those days we're just as scared S*** LESS as anyone else of AH and his henchmen.

[CaptHawkeye]

I would be very interested in the citation that supports this.

Yeah, I have to prove the Nazis took power in the first place and had wide scale public support.

[CaptHawkeye]

I have no proof but a gut feeling that your average German in those days we're just as scared S*** LESS as anyone else of AH and his henchmen.

Which never would have happened in the first place had they not voted him into power.

[August]

I think Germany's problem is that the nazi era is still too recent. Although it seems like a long time to us in the modern age, 64 years is nothing when it comes to making people stop thinking of such earth shaking events as the holocaust and WW2. Heck we even still have a living memory of those times.

For example it's taken 700 years for people to stop thinking of Italians as Romans and even now there are those who will attempt to draw such comparisons when it suits them.

I expect it will be the same unless Germany becomes better known for something else. But I think if your young people decide to, as you put it, "live up to the reputation" it will only serve to make the impression even more long lasting.

[Bewolf]

Public support was there, maybe not at a constant high and certainly not to the degree foreign folks often make it out to be, but in general it was. Enough to not threaten Nazi rule anyways.

[CaptHawkeye]

Nobody is asking Germany to carry it's past with it forever. What i'm saying is that you shouldn't feel bad for it either.

[August]

Public support was there, maybe not at a constant high and certainly not to the degree foreign folks often make it out to be, but in general it was. Enough to not threaten Nazi rule anyways.

People speak of that support with the advantage of hindsight. They don't understand that things are never that clear before the fact.

[Bewolf]

Which never would have happened in the first place had they not voted him into power.

That they didn't. The NsDAP was losing votes big time at the last free election in Germany. Within the coalition of other nationalistic parties, Hitler threatend to leave that if they didn't make him Chancellor. The partyleaders of that coalition talked to Hindenburg into making Hitler Chancellor, despite all the reservations to that, with the promise to "push him into the corner until he squeals". The rest is history.

[Jimbuna]

I doubt there is a country in Europe that doesn't have a section of it's population or a political movement that purports to support nazi tendancies.

The key is how the rest of society manage the situation, stop them spreading the vile and evil hatred they spew and keep them in check.

[Lurchi]

Which never would have happened in the first place had they not voted him into power.
Hitler was never voted into power by the majority of german people - this is a myth constructed for obvious reasons by war propaganda.

Although the Nazis were the strongest party their star was already sinking as they lost votes during the last free election (despite massive terror and intimidation by the SA against other parties). The problem was that resistance was fragmented into various factions.

Hitler was "appointed" Chancellor by monarchist President Hindenburg who believed that germans need a "strong hand" like the old Kaiser. For Hitler this was his last and only chance as he was obviously unable to win through regular elections before.

When Hitler finally grabbed ultimate power no german voter was asked anymore - and after that, demonstrating against a million men army of thugs like the SA with a good chance of ending in a torture cellar was not smartest thing to to by a man of woman with a family at home ...

[CaptHawkeye]

Not voting him into directly. Why were the Nazis getting so many seats in the Reichstag in the first place? Why did their party balloon in size during the early 30s? Even if they were losing popularity just before Hitler became chancellor, they had to *be* popular in the first place.

You're right in that plenty of people in Germany had considered the Nazis to be violent lunatics from Day 1. The problem is plenty MORE thought they were national icons. Just look at the obscene popularity Hitler gained after Mein Kampf, the Nuremburg Rallies, etc. Crowds as far as the eye can see.

Of course, even that's still barely an excuse. White Rose and Rossenstrasse all occured during the 40s, the height of Nazi power. They didn't let the Nazi bogeymen scare them.

[Frame57]

If I could have the chance to sit down and have a beer with Karl Donitz, I would...:salute:

[CaptHawkeye]

Oh I would too. I'd just be picky about what I took from him. Donitz remained an ardent nationalist (Hint: not national socialist) his entire life. I generally dislike people who place meaningless national pride ahead of lives.

[Schroeder]

White Rose and Rossenstrasse all occured during the 40s, the height of Nazi power. They didn't let the Nazi bogeymen scare them.
You are aware that most members of the White Rose were executed? How many people are willing to risk there very life for something they can hardly change?
Several thousand Germans were executed by the Nazis. Sometimes for as small acts as telling a joke that made fun of Hitler or voicing out there opinion (like the White Rose people did). That usually keeps people in line. If you don't know who you can trust you better stay silent because a wrong word to a wrong person could be your end.
Are you from an east European country? If so then ask yourself what did your ancestors do against communism? By all means Stalin's thugs are responsible for at least as many dead and they had installed a terror regime which could challenge the German one in terms of cruelty.

[CaptainHaplo]

My mother, a naturalized US citizen - was born in Germany in 45. My maternal grandfather was a Nazi. It took me over a year longer than normal to get my security clearance because of that fact. Turns out he was a party member on the basis of being asked if he was, with a gun to his head. He gave the only answer that meant his immediate survival so he could care for his family. I never met the man, he died well before I was born. But I think no less of him because of his answer.

To say that every German was a Nazi is a gross distortion of reality. Many were - at the point of a gun. In a country being torn apart by war, when your asked by thugs who you know will pull the trigger if they don't like the answer, and you have children and one on the way - what would your answer be?

To claim that Germans did nothing to stop the rise of Hitler to power is pure fallacy and demonstrates a total lack of understanding history.

Now - as to the question of how to move past the issue of Nazi-ism in today's youth hero worship world. First off the German government needs to stop trying to suppress the reality - swastikas exist. Nazi-ism exists. History - exists. What you tell youth they cannot see, display, learn about, etc, only makes them want to do wo. But here is the key. Not one German leader today was part of the Party Heirarchy that led Germany in those terrible years.

Today in the US some people still agitate for "reparations" to blacks for the history of slavery this country has. My response - "If I ever have a slave, then I should pay.". Simply put - it wasn't me that did it, and it won't be me that pays for it. I have never owned a slave, I recognize every person's equality as a human, and thus I owe nothing to the descendants of those who were enslaved.

Same thing applies to Germany today. The SOCIETY of Germany has to learn to stop feeling sorry for the actions of people other than themselves. They didn't create the Nazi menace, they didn't allow it to build power. What they must do is learn to stand tall and say "We are smarter, we are wiser, and we are united in not allowing it to happen again - we learn the history lesson and will not repeat the errors of OTHERS - for these errors were not our own."

Only then can German society put that period of history in perspective. Once they do, then they can look any accusation referring back to nazism in the eye - and respond with pride that they have learned the lesson of history, matured as a society, and that it is sad to see their accuser has not matured as much in this day and age.

Nationalism is strong in the German heart. Its hard to look at your grandfather and think what they may have been a part of. But its time to stop living in their shadow. Do that and you open doors for true pride in things worth being proud of.

[Platapus]

Well put. :salute:

[Jimbuna]

Great reading Haplo http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Aramike]

I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, a city built on its German heritage, and very proud of it.

Truth be told, even in my travels abroad I rarely encountered any hostility against Germans due to Nazism. I think this is a case of considering the source - only a moron would consider modern day Germany to be derivative at all from Nazi Germany.

You should consider where you're encountering these idiots who make the comparison. For instance, if its online in a forum such as this consider that it may just be someone trying to get under your skin. My advice to you is to not let them be effective at that.

[Jimbuna]

The only thing about Germans that gets "under my skin" :DL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmbabvo1QWM

[CaptHawkeye]

You are aware that most members of the White Rose were executed? How many people are willing to risk there very life for something they can hardly change?

This does not address the point. The fact is White Rose would not have even been necessary had the Nazis been bared from power and acceptance in the first place. But the fact that White Rose existed indicates their were people in Germany who knew fully what the Nazis were doing and even called for people to join them against the party. It's just too bad they came too late.

Several thousand Germans were executed by the Nazis.

8 million Jews and other non-aryans were executed by the Nazis. Many uncountable millions of Slavs were executed by the Nazis. Do you see why I find opinions like yours ridiculous?

Sometimes for as small acts as telling a joke that made fun of Hitler or voicing out there opinion (like the White Rose people did). That usually keeps people in line. If you don't know who you can trust you better stay silent because a wrong word to a wrong person could be your end.

Unfortunately for the Jews, they didn't even have the choice to just stay silent. But hey, Germans were threatened...by the party they chose to support. The party that threatened mass violence to all of its neighbors.

"We didn't know" is not a sufficient excuse. That's the end of it.

By all means Stalin's thugs are responsible for at least as many dead and they had installed a terror regime which could challenge the German one in terms of cruelty.

By all means Stalin and his regime were equally cruel and sadistic. The difference is no one covered for him after death. The Post-Stalin Soviet Union actually went out the way to discredit Stalin and his public image for good reason. The man was a tyrant, and the Soviet and modern people of Russia never liked him. If the Nazis hadn't been so brutal to the western Slavs, they would have actually risen against him and joined the axis.

[CaptHawkeye]

Haplo that's a good read, but it still contains largely what i've come to expect from people regarding this topic. To say "we were threatened and couldn't speak out against the Nazis" doesn't work. Hitler didn't end up in control by magic. Millions of German citizens did not enlist in his armies and enthusiastically conquer Europe by chance.

I agree Germans did oppose the Nazis. My point is that not enough of them did. White Rose was mostly made up of a few scattered college students. If German citizens were as opposed to the Nazis as you claim, White Rose and Rossenstrasse would have been much larger and more frequent regardless of threats. We would have seen more men like Oskar Schindler.

But we didn't. Because the reality is German citizens were not staunchly opposed to the Nazis until the Nazis ironically started to turn against them as the war came to a close. Which is probably what she means by German opposition to the Nazis. The problem is, opposing the Nazis in 1945 and not in 1935 is the epitome of "day late and a dollar short".

Now - as to the question of how to move past the issue of Nazi-ism in today's youth hero worship world. First off the German government needs to stop trying to suppress the reality - swastikas exist. Nazi-ism exists. History - exists.

Neo Nazis exist. I agree the suppression of Nazi party hints in Germany is a bit extreme at times but their is a logical reason Germans try to avoid it. They don't want Nazi memorabilia to be collected or sighted and used as a rallying point for contemparary National Socialists.

[Schroeder]

This does not address the point. The fact is White Rose would not have even been necessary had the Nazis been bared from power and acceptance in the first place.
You are aware of the political and economical situation in Germany back when the Nazis took over? Hitler promised freedom an food for the people. Not everyone liked him and he wasn't voted into his office. He was just another chancellor, like we had so many during the Republic of Weimar. When the people finally realized what was going on it was already life threatening to do something against it.



8 million Jews and other non-aryans were executed by the Nazis. Many uncountable millions of Slavs were executed by the Nazis. Do you see why I find opinions like yours ridiculous?
The Germans were killed because they opposed the Nazis. The tried to resist and got killed. What does this have to do with the Holocaust?
If your neighbour resists and ends up at the graveyard you surely think twice about resisting yourself.



Unfortunately for the Jews, they didn't even have the choice to just stay silent. But hey, Germans were threatened...by the party they chose to support.
Did you read the other posts? Hitler's party has lost votes at the last free election. But of course it is way more convenient to belief that all Germans voted for him....


By all means Stalin and his regime were equally cruel and sadistic. The difference is no one covered for him after death.
Who is covering Hitler?
I think Germany would be the last country that is covering him!
No one who is sane wants that bloody idiot back (except for those Neo Nazis but I don't call them sane).


The Post-Stalin Soviet Union actually went out the way to discredit Stalin and his public image for good reason.
Germany didn't do the same with Hitler and his thugs?:06:


The man was a tyrant, and the Soviet and modern people of Russia never liked him.
Same goes for most Germans in regards of Hitler and the Nazis.

[Happy Times]

I undertand what the OP is getting here. I can relate to the blaming as a Finn at small degree.

What are you tought at school for exsample? I think the inter war and ww2 period should be described as a sad event. A time when Germanys great potential to be one of the leading countries in the world, in a positive way, was destroyed by the Nazis.

I dont know about other countries but in Finnish schools, the WW1 victors treatment of Germany, is seen as a direct link to WW2.

Germany for centuries has often been biggest, richest and developed country in Europe and target of envy by Britain and France. Every possible way has been taken to weaken it. This has to be recognized as a constant undercurrant of European relations trough centuries.

That why many people feel that the European Union is a must, we have to make it work, or we will shoot each other once again.

[Schroeder]

What are you tought at school for exsample?

They don't teach anything about WWII here at all (almost, we watched the movies Schindler's List and the Diary Of Anne Frank, but that was it practically).
I had history as one of my main subjects for my graduation. We were doing National Socialism only from 1933 until 1939.
When the real nasty stuff started we either changed the subject or the year was over (don't remember any more what of that happened).
We also didn't learn anything about WWI except that it happened (hey, at least we watched the movie "All Quiet On The Western Front", but it doesn't explain WHY anything happened.
This is the point were we come back to the original topic. I think one of the biggest mistakes is not to teach anything about WWII in school (at least not where I went to school 10 years ago, maybe that's different in other states here). I think even superficial knowledge of the war should be enough to destroy any good image of Hitler. All the big mistakes he has been making should be enough to identify him as a total idiot. Add that up with all the crimes that happened and no one with a brain should be willing to follow someone like him anymore.


I dont know about other countries but in Finnish schools, the WW1 victors treatment of Germany, is seen as a direct link to WW2.
Same here. The Versaille Treaty was one of the main reasons why the Republic of Weimar never had a chance.

[Thomen]

They don't teach anything about WWII here at all (almost, we watched the movies Schindler's List and the Diary Of Anne Frank, but that was it practically).
I had history as one of my main subjects for my graduation. We were doing National Socialism only from 1933 until 1939.
When the real nasty stuff started we either changed the subject or the year was over (don't remember any more what of that happened).
We also didn't learn anything about WWI except that it happened (hey, at least we watched the movie "All Quiet On The Western Front", but it doesn't explain WHY anything happened.
This is the point were we come back to the original topic. I think one of the biggest mistakes is not to teach anything about WWII in school (at least not where I went to school 10 years ago, maybe that's different in other states here). I think even superficial knowledge of the war should be enough to destroy any good image of Hitler. All the big mistakes he has been making should be enough to identify him as a total idiot. Add that up with all the crimes that happened and no one with a brain should be willing to follow someone like him anymore.


Must be different from state to state or even city to city. The school I went to covert WW2 quite extensively, and to some detail even WW 1.
I remember writing a couple of essays about WW2 and asking my Grandparents for details.

[heartc]

It's very simple, really. It were difficult times back then, and after WWI, Germany wasn't dealt with all that fairly (which however is to be expected when loosing a f*cking World War), the Weimar Republic was unable to conduct policy in a believable and meaningfull manner, the country was threatened by communism from the outside as well as the inside, which most people soundly rejected, so when a man appeared who gave hysterical speeches (I still don't get all this "he was a great speaker" BS) who pretended to know the solution to all problems, people a) fell for it or b) considered him to be the lesser of evils. They all failed to see that you cannot build something on the basis of hatred, though. Or they tried to ignore those parts, which is difficult to imagine though because then there's not much of a Hitler speech left. Anyway, that is what happened and we have to accept that, end of story.

But OF COURSE, that DOESN'T mean that Germany today should belittle itself in international politics or take the Nazi blame card when someone else is running out of proper arguments. And frankly, I don't see that happening all that much, anyway. And if it does, we shouldn't take it all that seriously, as it is usually for domestic reasons of the other country as it tries to appeal to her lowest-in-intellect demographic group, and nothing else.

Those guys on "YouTube" that you talked about, Bewolf - they are usually the dumbest creatures to populate the internet since recently. On international YouTube but especially country-specific YouTube, because they are those guys who haven't even discovered that one of the points of the internet is to be an international platform or they can't even speak basic English that would suffice for their one-liners. I'm not surprised at all when YouTube commentators think they are onto yet another global and/or probably Jewish world conspiracy. I wouldn't even talk to them, they should go f*ck themselves. They are those people where I wonder how they even survive each day with so many trucks on the roads.

But I know that this dumb crap is unfortunately not only limited to YouTube, you also can hear it in on other - real life - occasions. Well, this is the result of the retarded way how this country and many parents dealt with our history.

Pretending that "the Nazis" had nothing to do with "the Germans" but fell down from Mars is how not to deal with it. Whining that some 70 years after, people are still remembering the Nazis and the fire that swept through all of Europe, is how not to deal with it. They will remember it in 1000 years. Pretending that other countries are using the Nazi card against us when *we* f*cked up, is not how to deal with it. Comparing Israel's struggle in the ME against people that think Dead Jew = Good Jew to the wars of aggression Nazi-Germany fought, is not how to deal with it. Whining that the US are running Konzentrationslager when they hold captive illegal combatants, is not how to deal with it. Comparing Bush to Hitler is not how to deal with it.

But suggesting to young children that they are somehow guilty by birth is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that conservative values are always somehow on the brink to fall off into Nazism, is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that "Left/Green" is always good and "Right" is always bad, is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that any notion of national pride or the wish to keep national / cultural identity is somehow evil, is not how to deal with it either. When you try to stop people from becoming Nazis / irrational by fighting their very own identity and declare evil their very basic, natural and human notions of "my culture", "my country" and "my people", which have been with humans since ever, then you will instead make them RECEPTIBLE for another madman who will step into the void that was left open irresponsibly by a lot of dumbasses who were busy with trying to be "less Nazi" than the next guy or their political opponent.

[Bewolf]

My mother, a naturalized US citizen - was born in Germany in 45. My maternal grandfather was a Nazi. It took me over a year longer than normal to get my security clearance because of that fact. Turns out he was a party member on the basis of being asked if he was, with a gun to his head. He gave the only answer that meant his immediate survival so he could care for his family. I never met the man, he died well before I was born. But I think no less of him because of his answer.

To say that every German was a Nazi is a gross distortion of reality. Many were - at the point of a gun. In a country being torn apart by war, when your asked by thugs who you know will pull the trigger if they don't like the answer, and you have children and one on the way - what would your answer be?

To claim that Germans did nothing to stop the rise of Hitler to power is pure fallacy and demonstrates a total lack of understanding history.

Now - as to the question of how to move past the issue of Nazi-ism in today's youth hero worship world. First off the German government needs to stop trying to suppress the reality - swastikas exist. Nazi-ism exists. History - exists. What you tell youth they cannot see, display, learn about, etc, only makes them want to do wo. But here is the key. Not one German leader today was part of the Party Heirarchy that led Germany in those terrible years.

Today in the US some people still agitate for "reparations" to blacks for the history of slavery this country has. My response - "If I ever have a slave, then I should pay.". Simply put - it wasn't me that did it, and it won't be me that pays for it. I have never owned a slave, I recognize every person's equality as a human, and thus I owe nothing to the descendants of those who were enslaved.

Same thing applies to Germany today. The SOCIETY of Germany has to learn to stop feeling sorry for the actions of people other than themselves. They didn't create the Nazi menace, they didn't allow it to build power. What they must do is learn to stand tall and say "We are smarter, we are wiser, and we are united in not allowing it to happen again - we learn the history lesson and will not repeat the errors of OTHERS - for these errors were not our own."

Only then can German society put that period of history in perspective. Once they do, then they can look any accusation referring back to nazism in the eye - and respond with pride that they have learned the lesson of history, matured as a society, and that it is sad to see their accuser has not matured as much in this day and age.

Nationalism is strong in the German heart. Its hard to look at your grandfather and think what they may have been a part of. But its time to stop living in their shadow. Do that and you open doors for true pride in things worth being proud of.

This is the one entry, especially the part I put in bold, mirroring my own attitudes to this myself the best. I completly agree. A democracy will survive because people are convinced of the principles behind it, not because the alternatives are banned. And we all now the fascination of prohibition. Banning the smybols of that time simply does not work as a deterrant. If at all, it enforces it.

[Bewolf]

It's very simple, really. It were difficult times back then, and after WWI, Germany wasn't dealt with all that fairly (which however is to be expected when loosing a f*cking World War), the Weimar Republic was unable to conduct policy in a believable and meaningfull manner, the country was threatened by communism from the outside as well as the inside, which most people soundly rejected, so when a man appeared who gave hysterical speeches (I still don't get all this "he was a great speaker" BS) who pretended to know the solution to all problems, people a) fell for it or b) considered him to be the lesser of evils. They all failed to see that you cannot build something on the basis of hatred, though. Or they tried to ignore those parts, which is difficult to imagine though because then there's not much of a Hitler speech left. Anyway, that is what happened and we have to accept that, end of story.

But OF COURSE, that DOESN'T mean that Germany today should belittle itself in international politics or take the Nazi blame card when someone else is running out of proper arguments. And frankly, I don't see that happening all that much, anyway. And if it does, we shouldn't take it all that seriously, as it is usually for domestic reasons of the other country as it tries to appeal to her lowest-in-intellect demographic group, and nothing else.

Those guys on "YouTube" that you talked about, Bewolf - they are usually the dumbest creatures to populate the internet since recently. On international YouTube but especially country-specific YouTube, because they are those guys who haven't even discovered that one of the points of the internet is to be an international platform or they can't even speak basic English that would suffice for their one-liners. I'm not surprised at all when YouTube commentators think they are onto yet another global and/or probably Jewish world conspiracy. I wouldn't even talk to them, they should go f*ck themselves. They are those people where I wonder how they even survive each day with so many trucks on the roads.

But I know that this dumb crap is unfortunately not only limited to YouTube, you also can hear it in on other - real life - occasions. Well, this is the result of the retarded way how this country and many parents dealt with our history.

Pretending that "the Nazis" had nothing to do with "the Germans" but fell down from Mars is how not to deal with it. Whining that some 70 years after, people are still remembering the Nazis and the fire that swept through all of Europe, is how not to deal with it. They will remember it in 1000 years. Pretending that other countries are using the Nazi card against us when *we* f*cked up, is not how to deal with it. Comparing Israel's struggle in the ME against people that think Dead Jew = Good Jew to the wars of aggression Nazi-Germany fought, is not how to deal with it. Whining that the US are running Konzentrationslager when they hold captive illegal combatants, is not how to deal with it. Comparing Bush to Hitler is not how to deal with it.

But suggesting to young children that they are somehow guilty by birth is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that conservative values are always somehow on the brink to fall off into Nazism, is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that "Left/Green" is always good and "Right" is always bad, is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that any notion of national pride or the wish to keep national / cultural identity is somehow evil, is not how to deal with it either. When you try to stop people from becoming Nazis / irrational by fighting their very own identity and declare evil their very basic, natural and human notions of "my culture", "my country" and "my people", which have been with humans since ever, then you will instead make them RECEPTIBLE for another madman who will step into the void that was left open irresponsibly by a lot of dumbasses who were busy with trying to be "less Nazi" than the next guy or their political opponent.


Here, too, absolute agreement. Most of what was said in this thread so far I tend to agree with anyways. But this all does not solve the problems. Sure, youtube lures the dumbest people to posting. But the most stupid ones are usually also the most vocal ones, thus also making the biggest impact. With propper education and trust in oneself it is not problem to counter these folks, but the real problem is most youtube users usually are of lower age. And at this age a lot about future character development and views is decided.

Now imagine, you are 17 years of age, school taught you about atrocities and the ever returning "do not forget" on the one hand, the achievements of german society back then till today on the other hand, making you a little bit proud of the turnaround we managed, and then you go on forums, boards, youtube, basicly all international communication platforms the internet provides nowadays, and you get spit in your face.

Sure, the folks doing this spitting usually are the more stupid people, those without propper knowledge or simply to the fanatical right or left from other countries that consider all their ills in their country today as a result of the war. But your average 17 year old won't be able to differ between mature folks and stupid ones yet.

Let's also say most are right that the german governemnt is rather incapable and no solution will be found from within the political establishment in the foreseeable future due to political correctness issues and most of all, simple convinience in not changing ways that worked for 60 years....how do you personally act?

[Bewolf]

Must be different from state to state or even city to city. The school I went to covert WW2 quite extensively, and to some detail even WW 1.
I remember writing a couple of essays about WW2 and asking my Grandparents for details.


Same here. We even got a good briefing from the end of the Napoleonic wars till today, including the events leading up to 1848/49, foundation of the empire 1871 going through to the timeframe of 1918 and covered the Weimar Republic from this point in time until 1945 and beyond.

Few people realize that the Weimar Constitution was still in effect by 1945 and, as it was never officially absolished, in effect to this day. Actually the whole "Deutsches Reich" was never put ad acta, which leads some concreteheads to proclaim the reestiblishment of the Reich.

[August]

...how do you personally act?

There are no easy answers Bewolf but your youth can't be allowed to give up trying. Germany has to make itself better known for something else and that's going to take a long time. Like I said earlier it hasn't even been a century yet since WW2. That is just a blink of an eye in terms of national identity.

[Bewolf]

Haplo that's a good read, but it still contains largely what i've come to expect from people regarding this topic. To say "we were threatened and couldn't speak out against the Nazis" doesn't work. Hitler didn't end up in control by magic. Millions of German citizens did not enlist in his armies and enthusiastically conquer Europe by chance.

I agree Germans did oppose the Nazis. My point is that not enough of them did. White Rose was mostly made up of a few scattered college students. If German citizens were as opposed to the Nazis as you claim, White Rose and Rossenstrasse would have been much larger and more frequent regardless of threats. We would have seen more men like Oskar Schindler.

But we didn't. Because the reality is German citizens were not staunchly opposed to the Nazis until the Nazis ironically started to turn against them as the war came to a close. Which is probably what she means by German opposition to the Nazis. The problem is, opposing the Nazis in 1945 and not in 1935 is the epitome of "day late and a dollar short".



Neo Nazis exist. I agree the suppression of Nazi party hints in Germany is a bit extreme at times but their is a logical reason Germans try to avoid it. They don't want Nazi memorabilia to be collected or sighted and used as a rallying point for contemparary National Socialists.

You are correct. Not because I do not agree to Schroeders outlining of what happend and how it happend and why there was so few resistance. I understand where he is coming from and I agree to him in large parts. But understanding does not mean pologizising, and if we do not hold this generation accaountable for what happend...then who is? And what does this say about humanity and it's will to hold up principles in general? If a ppl wants to be percieved as mature, strong willed and capable, in control of their fate instead of just beeing sheep, it has to face the consequences of their actions. And if this includes the acceptance of a brutal Dictatorship, danger for life or not, it has to deal with the results later on.

We could have done much more. A few times mass ralleys happend to protect jews from deportation. These were very few inbetween, but nobody came to harm, the jews were saved and nobody arrested. The Nazis politics relied on stealth and secercy. Public outrage was greatly feared by the Nazis due to the results that led to the end of World War I. Had more germans shown civil courage and gathered to protest, lots could have been prevented. Yes, it was a time of crisis, and the mass exectutions only took place after world war 2 started and the ppl really other problems to deal with. But the responsebility does not vanish just because of that. If you whitewash the happenings back then on the basis of human nature, which you actually can, you undermine the general appliance of morales and ethnics, which is a Persilschein for future occurances of such happenings.

[heartc]

If you whitewash the happenings back then on the basis of human nature, which you actually can, you undermine the general appliance of morales and ethnics, which is a Persilschein for future occurances of such happenings.

QFT.

[Schroeder]

But understanding does not mean pologizising, and if we do not hold this generation accaountable for what happend...then who is?...
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm holding the individuals accountable for all the crimes they committed. Those who were involved in crimes should have to answer for them.
I just don't like a certain generalization.;)

@heartc
May I ask what QFT is standing for?:06:

[Jimbuna]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm holding the individuals accountable for all the crimes they committed. Those who were involved in crimes should have to answer for them.
I just don't like a certain generalization.;)

@heartc
May I ask what QFT is standing for?:06:

"Quoted For Truth" - "qft" is a label used on Internet forums when someone quotes a debated statement, thereby ensuring that the original statement cannot be edited or deleted by the person being quoted. Later also used as a sign of agreement with another poster.

[Schroeder]

Thanks.:salute:

[Platapus]

QFT also means that the previous post agreed with my opinion. :D

[AngusJS]

Millions of German citizens did not enlist in his armies and enthusiastically conquer Europe by chance.Don't forget, conscription was instated in 1935.

The problem is, opposing the Nazis in 1945 and not in 1935 is the epitome of "day late and a dollar short".There was an assassination attempt on Hitler in November 1939. If it had succeeded, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

By all means Stalin and his regime were equally cruel and sadistic. The difference is no one covered for him after death. The Post-Stalin Soviet Union actually went out the way to discredit Stalin and his public image for good reason.Au contraire. The destalinization initiated by Khruschev was not that far reaching. Prisoners were released, and some criticism of Stalinism was allowed, but the shear tragedy of the gulag era could be touched on only obliquely. There was no complete expose of the gulag system until Glasnost. And even after the fall of the Soviet Union, the Kremlin's contrition for that whole 50 year occupation thing was pathetic.

The man was a tyrant, and the Soviet and modern people of Russia never liked him.Many Russians today respect Stalin for making the USSR a superpower. And ALOT of Soviets absolutely LOVED Stalin back then. And why not? When you have a closed society with no free flow of information, where the price of dissent is imprisonment, torture or death, and you're spoon fed propaganda that your leader is a virtual demi-god, what do you expect is going to happen? Why can't the same be applied to the Germans of the 30s and 40s?

It's very easy to criticize when you have access to all the information granted by hindsight, and you're safe and sound in your liberal democracy where your rights to information, dissent and activism are guaranteed.

[OneToughHerring]

Interesting thread, I read pretty much everyone's reply. Very interesting to read about German opinions about their past.

As a Finn we sort of have similar problems concerning our history of WW 2. Some Finns volunteered as Waffen SS and there has been some debate about these guys and how much they should be honoured etc. It's pretty common to see usually young guys on the streets wearing hoodies etc. with the images of Iron Crosses on them, either that or some kind of 'respect the veterans' message. The way I've understood these is that they are a kind of 'response' to the Che Guevara - t-shirts etc. I would not wear either but I think that the wearing of these iron cross images is a Finnish thing, I can't imagine seeing them in Holland or even the UK.

I don't think there has been a 'monster' in the history that has been buried and shamed as much as Hitler and his cronies. France had Napoleon and he has a very respectable looking monument at the Hotel des Invalides (sp?). I remember reading that when Leo Tolstoi, the great Russian novelist, visited Paris and saw Napoleon's grave monument he was astounded that the French would have such a positive monument to such a monster and enemy of Russia.

I kinda sometimes wonder about some of these people who seem to have such a bottomless fervour about the WW2 German armed forces, for example net sites like Feldgrau.com etc. I know these people are not nazis but are they, perhaps unknowingly, sort of eroding the line between nazism and what they claim as genuine intrest in WW2 and the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, etc.?

And slightly OT, Capt. Haplo, I'm not sure if the slave reparation issue is truly and well dealt with and in the past. For a long time I used to think so but lately I've been hearing this slowly building cry about the issue. IMO it would be both very difficult if not impossible and possibly very dangerous to try to stifle and quiet this issue completely. I've actually seen some numbers that people have thrown as examples what could constitute as a suitable reparation figure and they are pretty big figures. But this is a bit OT so no more of that.

A whole another issue would be native American reparations, I can't even begin to fathom that issue in it's entirety.

[Bewolf]

There was more then just one attempt to kill Hitler. The 44 Stauffenberg Plot was just the largest and most ambitious one.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2972

[Rilder]

Thread requires humor. :P
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s311/Rilder/1230871902511.jpg

[Stealth Hunter]

Thread requires humor. :P


http://content.humorpix.com/images/3114/p001.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Thread requires humor. :P


Most definitely http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/4986/hitlersmileythumbnailiz3.jpg

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6392/p001m.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p001m.jpg)

[Rosencrantz]

How could we think the nazism was/is/should be German's problem only?
Let's take couple examples:

1. Who supported eugenic research programs in Germany before the WWII? The very right answer is: Among the others, THE Rockefeller Foundation. Why? Because in the States there was people who thought it was time to get rid of disabled (physically or mentally) people, or people with low economics but fast reproduction. In the nutshell the idea was to search and identify principal eugenic factors which make a man being a potential looser - i.e. social ballast. And for example in Sweden these kind of programs continued even long after the war, including for example forced castration of women with unwanted social background. Here in Finland eugenic studies were also conducted but they never lead to anything.

2. I wouldn't say "the Germans killed 6'000'000 jews" but rather "the World killed millions of jews, gypsies and other people in concentration camps placed in the Germany". Why? Because even if no one could imagine Auswitch-like mass destruction factory in 1930's, propably no one who read The London Times or other main stream news paper could be unaware about what was going in the Germany. Just read the old magazines and you'll see. Everything is there, starting from the very first anti-jewish pogrom on 1st of April 1933. Quote from the Finish paper Ajan Suunta 1.4.1933: "...Boycott will be carried on on Saturday, with full strength and iron discipline. It will begin, as planned, at 10 am, but will be interrupted at the evening... If the international agitation will be called to absolutely halt by the evening, the National Socialist Party will be ready to return the normal conditions in the Germany..." (My translation)
"International agitation" means foreign press releases handling the anti-jewish violences happened already in the Germany.

So, there was news, nothing much was done behind the curtains, and what happened? Nothing. No one raised a finger before it was too late. And again, why? Of course, no one didn't know how far Germany would go with jews, plus that basicly it was German's own busines to rule their country. But I think also, no one really didn't want those people, jews and the others. That became clear a bit later, as years passed. No one didn't want those people, and so actually the world killed them - not the Germans alone.

But the world needs it's heroes and so we often seems to forget that when the white troops saved the world from the black nazism, they were actually washing their own laundry as well. And what concerns me even more is that something like the Holocaust could happen again, against our eyes, and without we would be able to do anything but being late. And it doesn't have to be mass murders or ethnic wars like in the Balkans 1990's, but maybe also something else. However, no matter what we think about it today, eugenic was a science then. And besides the genes, what are we studying today?

To the end I want to say just one more thing. I think it's a shame - but understandable - that the Nazi era hasn't been discussed properly between the old and new German generations. I think maybe the most important lesson will be lost, because the era is quiet to death. I say so bacause I can't believe all that could happen and no one knew - as it is often excused. "I didn't know", or "Grandpa didn't know". I think the best what still living old people in Germany could do would be telling: "Yes, I was a German and I hailed to the Führer." And then explain what he or she felt and thought during those years and why.

Greetings,
-RC-

[Task Force]

If I am correct the japanease had something similar to what the nazis did, if I remember it correctly the killed over 10 million civilians right.:hmmm:

[Dowly]

If I am correct the japanease had something similar to what the nazis did, if I remember it correctly the killed over 10 million civilians right.:hmmm:

And Stalin over 20 million. :shifty:

[Task Force]

Wow, stalin did the same thing too.:hmmm: hmm... so the germans wernt the only ones... There just the ones noted more...

[Raptor1]

The Russians and Germans at the time beat the Japanese in murdering their own people, but the Japanese take the lead at murdering other people I believe...

[Task Force]

I think your right... gonna go look it up...
China - 1,300,000 military and around 10,000,000 civilians.
as you can see china had around 10,000,000

[Max2147]

Arguing about how many people this or that dictator killed is so imprecise that it's pointless.

For example, Mao didn't order that many deaths directly. However, millions died as a direct result of his policies. The goal of those policies wasn't killing people (which makes them different from the Holocaust), but they were directly responsible for causing famines and other strife that killed people. So if you're counting the number of people that Mao killed, do you count those people?

I think what separates the Holocaust from those other brutal incidents in our mind isn't the number killed, it's the way they were killed and who killed them.

Most massacres have an almost animal-like brutality about them. The Rwandan genocide is a classic example - bands of people going around, finding people they don't like, and hacking them to death. The Japanese atrocities in China were similarly animalistic - soldiers roving through the city, raping the women and murdering the men.

For the most part, the Holocaust was different. It was conducted with scientific efficiency. It was controlled, cold, and calculated - none of the uncontrolled frenzied animal passion that characterizes most massacres. It was almost industrial in nature - like the victims were a commodity like cattle that were brought to a central point for slaughter. It was very well thought out over several years and planned from the top. It's probably the only time that permanent buildings and huge sprawling camps have been built for the specific purpose of killing people on a massive scale.

Another issue with the Holocaust was that the perpetrators were Western Europeans living in an advanced, well-educated, and industrial society. They weren't some barbarians from a foreign land - they were one of us. That really scared and continues to scare a lot of people.

[Skybird]

By all means Stalin and his regime were equally cruel and sadistic. The difference is no one covered for him after death. The Post-Stalin Soviet Union actually went out the way to discredit Stalin and his public image for good reason. The man was a tyrant, and the Soviet and modern people of Russia never liked him. If the Nazis hadn't been so brutal to the western Slavs, they would have actually risen against him and joined the axis.
Actually, Stalin is "in" in the present Russia. Stage shows featuring him. TV and films. He is socially acceptable again. Many people confess to like him. He has become an idol. It is said that the government also polishes his image, to make people more accepting strong leader figures at the top of the state. His nasty sides get minimised and glossed over, I get the impression. I think for historical reasons Russian mentality is quite prone to leader cult and one-man-shows - see Putin's surprising and very substantial popularity. Maybe they had Czars for too long - and the guys coming after the Czars were not less autocratic.

[Skybird]

And school, well, my Gymnasium times were from 1978 (I think) to 1985 (I'm sure). And from sixth class on Nationalsocialism and Holocaust was shoved down our throats on three different schools in three different federal states: in history classes, in religion classes (when I was allowed there :) ), in Political classes, in German classes anyway , and even a bit in English classes, time and again, over and over again, year for year. That's why I am so very fed up with being told about the holocaust anymore and usually reject any discussion of the very topic itself. It BORES me to death. Learning the lesson from it, is okay, I support that, and I refer to it myself occasionally, to get an argument delivered. But discussing it for the sake of discussing the holocaust and "die deutsche Geschichte bewältigen" turns out a less patient and more unfriendly side in me. Exceptions to the rule are possible, but the rule is I am through and through sick and tired of hearing about the holocaust, from toe to head.

If that was the educational goal, they have been highly successful.

Strangely, the sequence of military events that form up WWII were almost ignored. The history of the military part of the war I learned for private interest, after school. But the military in general was very much a banned issue in Germany in the 80s.

[Task Force]

they dont talk about the military stuff here realy ither... Just that nazis were bad people... they killed people... ect...

[OneToughHerring]

In elementary school or 'upper secondary school' we didn't have anything about the military side of WW 2, all that stuff one had to learn on one's own time. Especially if one had a female history teacher, they didn't like the WW2 at all, it was just about 1848 and French revolution etc. Interesting times on their own but WW 2 is the truly 'manly' part of history. :)

Maybe they had Czars for too long - and the guys coming after the Czars were not less autocratic.

Good point Skybird. Although Russia was established as a western country in the east they have often been shunned from the 'European table' for being 'barbaric', 'slavic', 'eastern', etc. And were the targets of two most recent world wars, and Napoleon. They too have a reason to be sceptical of the west, and pretty much all their neighbours.