"We are being visited."

[Fish]

:zzz:An Apollo 14 astronaut told a group of UFOlogists Monday that aliens are not a myth and called on the government to disclose its findings, The Washington Times reported.
"It is now time to put away this embargo of truth about the alien presence," Edgar D. Mitchell, who made the longest moonwalk in history, told those attending a conference in Gaithersburg, Md., set up by the Paradigm Research Group.
"I call upon our government to open up ... and become a part of this planetary community that is now trying to take our proper role as a spacefaring civilization," the 79-year-old added. "We are being visited."
Paradigm Research Group founder Stephen Bassett backed Mitchell's theory and demanded that President Obama's administration release all information concerning extraterrestrial beings.
"If it does not disclose, by the end of May — this is not a threat or anything, you don't threaten the United States government, they're heavily armed ... the PRG has an enormous and substantial network, and quite a bit of documentary evidence connected to this, particularly politically ... and we are going to be extensively putting that out to the media, and we're just going to make it as difficult on them as possible," Bassett told the newspaper.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517421,00.html

I think this is going to be bad news for your president.:rotfl:

[baggygreen]

I dunno.

I suspect that its true, call it a gut instinct - and my gut is very rarely wrong.

If it is true, one of my first questions would simply have to be why was it kept from us? not to be asked with malice, but genuine curiosity.

THEN i'd get into wanting to know all about these strange and distant places, my dreams within reach of coming true!

[Platapus]

Edgar makes this or a similar speech every year. It is one of his issues.

As always I have to ask, where is the evidence?

I am undecided on this issue. The absence of evidence does not mean we have not been visited. But I need some positive evidence before I can opine.

Of course the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there is that they have chosen not to visit us. :D

[Sailor Steve]

I agree. I don't discount anything, but I get tired of people telling me "It's true! You have to believe!", without showing anything real. He is quoted as claiming it's true, but he doesn't say he's actually seen anything. Until he does, it's just his opinion.

But some people just have to try to use it as 'fact'.

[baggygreen]

Platapus, in my opinion one of the best signs that there are extraterrestrials lies in ancient rock art. Dismissed by skeptics as fanciful legends, there are almost identical images portrayed around the world.

pardon the stereotypes to follow, but these are what were drawn millenia ago.


long, cigar-shaped images painted high above images of ground-dwelling creatures
images of humanoids with bowls around their heads and clothed in an entirely different fashion to other images in the same area, from the same period.
Another possible indicator is pyramids. Don't dismiss me yet. Pyramids were constructed in Egypt (arguably the most advanced civilisation at that time, as well as being very close to the so-called 'cradle of civilisation'), as well as being built in S-E Asia and South America.

Again, skeptics can dismiss these, using the argument that a pyramid is the most stable of (relatively) ancient architectural possibilities. The argument is valid and accurate, but I feel fails to take into account 2 points. Firstly, that not all cultures known to have built pyramids are known to have had an advanced enough system of mathematics to determine that pyramids were the most stable type of building. Secondly, As is the case with the recurring images, the implication from those arguing on this basis is that humans around the globe developed with the same ideas and the same legends, at different points in history and with no (known) method of contact with each other. That is, to me, just as far-fetched as little green men visiting our planet.

Happy as always to discuss :DL

Edit - here (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://mathildasweirdworldweblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/ancient_visitors_01.jpg&imgrefurl=http://mathildasweirdworldweblog.wordpress.com/2008/07/01/aliens-from-prehistory/&usg=__VpJQHE_CYzbfQI-EsWcFIZkCPws=&h=448&w=700&sz=58&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=5ug08mNPQNTwgM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drock%2Bart%2Bof%2Baliens%26gbv%3D2%26 hl%3Den) is a link to some decent images. look at a few similarities.

[Torplexed]

Edgar makes this or a similar speech every year. It is one of his issues.

As always I have to ask, where is the evidence?

I am undecided on this issue. The absence of evidence does not mean we have not been visited. But I need some positive evidence before I can opine.

Of course the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there is that they have chosen not to visit us. :D

I agree too. In a way this reinforces Mitchell's reputation. He's always been known as the most open-minded astronaut when it comes to the paranormal.

Nothing about being an astronaut excuses one from normal human frailty. It's not a magical occupation. It didn't stop Jack Swigert's cancer, or Buzz Aldrin's alcoholism, or Wally Schirra's impatience, or any number of indiscretions and misfortune we could name---an infamous restroom free drive to Florida comes to mind. :doh: My disappointment with Mitchell is not that he has made this claim, but as before he has not been forthcoming with any evidence.

[Skybird]

I don't know which side I found more disgusting: the fanatical pseudo-messianic believers - or the as-fanatical pseudo-scientific sceptics. For both sides, claims they make for their stand so very often know no limits in ridicule, absurdity and maximum antropocentrism. And both sides often do it with an almost religious zealotry - and turn their stand pro or contra into a religion indeed.

If I were ET, I would send home a report that I found no sign of intelligent life on this planet, activate my whatever-it-is, and head for the next name on my to-look-after-list at MAD-speed x+1.

[Platapus]

As an analyst, I am comfortable with uncertainty. Well used to it anyway.

I dismiss nothing, nor do I accept everything. If I don't have enough evidence to make a logical decision, I have no problems admitting "I just don't know".

That's my official position on UFOs/ETs/ALFs.

I just don't know.

And I am OK with that.

[antikristuseke]

Pretty much agree with Platapus on this, but would like to add that extraterrestrial visitors are bloody unlikely, though extraterrestrial life, given the size of the know universe, is inevitable.

[baggygreen]

I just feel the need to clarify myself a tad.

I'm not a fully fledged believer, not by any means, but I feel there are enough examples and accounts which raise the possibility of some form of ALF having visited the neighbourhood in the past.

note possibility not probabilty.

As for mitchell, well he's either gone loopy since his space-faring days, or he is getting paid enough to risk discrediting himself, or he is telling the truth.

[Etienne]

Aliens exist. The size of the universe pretty much guarantee that.

Now wether they've visited us? I highly doubt so. The odds are pretty low, if you think about it - There's a lot of planets, and we've only been broadcasting for about, what, a hundred years? Radio waves only travel at light speed, after all.

[August]

Aliens exist. The size of the universe pretty much guarantee that.

Now wether they've visited us? I highly doubt so. The odds are pretty low, if you think about it - There's a lot of planets, and we've only been broadcasting for about, what, a hundred years? Radio waves only travel at light speed, after all.

And not all that far before their signal attenuates to background noise levels.

[Blacklight]

Their theory that the govenrment is hiding something is porever safe. If the government HAS no information on it.. they'll just keep accusing them of hiding it.
This whole thing comes accross as illogical to me. If the US government is hiding stuff on UFO's does this mean that the US is the only country being visited ? If not, you'd have to believe that all the world's governments have information on UFO's. Now governments also have a tough time keeping stuff secret, especially when ALL governments have access to the information. SOMEONE is going to blab. I'm sorry. I just don't see anything being hidden. This is a case of a few organizations trying to make a fast buck by selling books and getting grants and donations. The whole UFO Government Coverup thing is a HUGE moneymaker for a lot of people.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Their theory that the govenrment is hiding something is porever safe. If the government HAS no information on it.. they'll just keep accusing them of hiding it.
This whole thing comes accross as illogical to me. If the US government is hiding stuff on UFO's does this mean that the US is the only country being visited ? If not, you'd have to believe that all the world's governments have information on UFO's. Now governments also have a tough time keeping stuff secret, especially when ALL governments have access to the information. SOMEONE is going to blab. I'm sorry. I just don't see anything being hidden. This is a case of a few organizations trying to make a fast buck by selling books and getting grants and donations. The whole UFO Government Coverup thing is a HUGE moneymaker for a lot of people.


Well posited. I tend to agree. Of course, there are those who have come forward and claim to have been involved, though they never really have proof. I suppose it is possible that there could be a coverup if the proof is very limited, though.

[Tchocky]

Edgar D. Mitchell, who made the longest moonwalk in history

Now there's a dance competition I could watch :P

[TDK1044]

We have proof that beings from the planet teleprompter were instrumental in getting him elected.

[Skybird]

Well said, Platapus. I also confess to "I do not know". Any theory and probability calculation saying howlikely or unlikely life in the universe, or visits on Earth, are, is simply this: theory. It could be. Or not. We just do not know for sure, and no probability calculation will change that.

Or in the language of quantum physics, the wave function still has not collapsed. We are like the scientist in front of Schroedinger's box who still has not opened it to see if the cat is still alive, or not. :DL

[TDK1044]

Oh, I have no doubt at all that we have been visited. I saw a UFO up close and personal in the Summer of 1989. I was only about 500 feet from this thing and I knew exactly what it was.

It's a personal experience though. Impossible to prove. Even if I'd shot video of it, there would have been accusations that I'd faked it somehow.

In the end, it's just an incredible personal experience. :)

[Letum]

I don't like the "I don't know" stance. I think we can do better than that.
If I throw a dice, I could say "I just don't know" if I will throw a 6, but it would
be better, given the evidence to say there is a 1 in 6 chance I will throw a 6.

Clearly we can't give a precise probability to claims that aliens are visiting
Earth, but we can decide if it is more likely than not, even if we are working
with very little evidence one way or the other.

There is no need to jump on the fence every time a little doubt shows up.

[Platapus]

Here is something to make my Tin Foil stock go up.

When Jimmy Carter was campaigning for President, one of his "promises" (snicker: promises from a politician :har: :haha::har: sorry) was that if elected President, he would open up the government files on UFOs to the public.

"One thing's for sure, I'll never make fun of people who say they've seen unidentified objects in the sky. If I become President, I'll make every piece of information this country has about UFO sightings available to the public and the scientists."

Good, Timothy (1989) "Above Top Secret: The Worldwide U.F.O. Cover-Up" Quill Publishers.

He was elected President, and after being read on to all the programs the President gets, decided not to open up any more files, citing national security.

:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:

[Platapus]

I don't like the "I don't know" stance. I think we can do better than that.
...

There is no need to jump on the fence every time a little doubt shows up.


Yes, but if we don't know, we need to be honest and say we don't know. Just admitting that we don't know does not mean that we won't strive for more information or that we are giving up.

I guess it would be more correct to say "we don't know yet"

I can live with that also :yeah:

[Jimbuna]

So what's being kept hidden in Area 51? :hmmm:

[FIREWALL]

While everybody is trying to see what is going on in AREA 51...

It's all being done out in the open somewhere else where nobody's looking. :har:

[Platapus]

So what's being kept hidden in Area 51? :hmmm:

I think you are overlooking a significant point.

If you accept that there is an Area 51, what are the other 50 areas?


And what are they doing *there*?
:D

[Dowly]

I think you are overlooking a significant point.

If you accept that there is an Area 51, what are the other 50 areas?


And what are they doing *there*?
:D

I believe 'Watertown' is the official name for Area 51, dating back to 1950's. The name 'Area 51' was introduced few years later when the government, army or whoever seized lands around it. :know:

EDIT: Sorry, it's now called 'Air Force Flight Test Center, Detachment 3'.

[AVGWarhawk]

I think you are overlooking a significant point.

If you accept that there is an Area 51, what are the other 50 areas?


And what are they doing *there*?
:D

Area 49 is Suomi Finland. :O:

[FIREWALL]

I think you are overlooking a significant point.

If you accept that there is an Area 51, what are the other 50 areas?


And what are they doing *there*?
:D

Laundering or wasteing US taxpayer hard earned money. :O:

[Jimbuna]

Could be where they filmed the moon landing :DL

[AVGWarhawk]

Could be where they filmed the moon landing :DL

There has been speculation Jim:hmmm:

[Platapus]

Could be where they filmed the moon landing :DL

Already been exposed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuwyY2DzO2I
:D

[Dowly]

Already been exposed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuwyY2DzO2I
:D

:har::har:

[FIREWALL]

There's been more " Probing " about Area 51 than all the ones the Aliens have been accused of. :haha:

[Rilder]

Bah if aliens landed here they'd probably end up starting a world war just because of their presence. :rotfl:

[Jimbuna]

Already been exposed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuwyY2DzO2I
:D

LMAO :rotfl:

Never seen that one before :up:

[Platapus]

If you want to see something from the people who really think it was fake, watch this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1tqZyZVoDM&feature=related

[Jimbuna]

Fascinating!! :o

I remember watching the moon landing as a young kid on a television at school.

I'm not so sure now :hmmm:

[Letum]

Yes, but if we don't know, we need to be honest and say we don't know. Just admitting that we don't know does not mean that we won't strive for more information or that we are giving up.

I guess it would be more correct to say "we don't know yet"

I can live with that also

There is no need for that.

Just because we don't know for sure, does not mean we should shrug our
shoulders and just say "we don't know". Those two things are not the same
at all.

We can always say there is, or there is not enough refutable evidence to
make the hypothesis more than likely.

[longam]

Fascinating!! :o

I remember watching the moon landing as a young kid on a television at school.

I'm not so sure now :hmmm:

But the Myth Busters proved it true
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-lunar-lunacy.html


(http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-mashups-moon-hoax-sneak-peek.html)

[Dowly]

Alot of the supposed "proof" of the hoax has been debunked ages ago. And if one doesnt believe the debunking stuff, here's a question, there's been hundreds of flights to space after the moon landing, you really think that none of them actually landed on moon?

The hoax guys have absolutely no proof about it being a hoax. They say there's no stars in the pics, I have cameraphone made in the 21st century and it doesnt capture stars either!

There crosshair of the camera cuts out on certain object. 1st of all, if one would want to fake a photo, dont you think they'd triple check the photos for anything that would give them away i.e. fix the crosshair. 2nd, IIRC, it's the camera that does it or something, anywho, there's perfectly good explanation for it in the interwebs.

Then the mother of all proofs, the flag is waving! Like Longam already posted (didnt watch the vid, but I presume it's the one with the flag test), flag does move in moon gravity.

[Platapus]

If we really want to find out what's true, why don't we just ask Buzz Aldrin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOo6aHSY8hU


Ok maybe we should not ask him

[Task Force]

I will believe we are being visited. when a alien ship comes and beames my arse up...:rotfl:

But life on other planets is likely possiable... If not... thats a giant waist of space.

[Dowly]

If we really want to find out what's true, why don't we just ask Buzz Aldrin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOo6aHSY8hU


Ok maybe we should not ask him

Haha, had forgotten all about that. :haha: Go Buzz!

[Task Force]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mouUUWpEec0&NR=1
But the moon landing was fake.:rotfl:

[U-104]

i have believed in aliens from the day i saw subsim.com.:lol:

[Stealth Hunter]

It's an inevitability that there's life somewhere out there. The Drake Equation confirms it, but more importantly, we must remember that in a universe of billions of known galaxies, each with trillions of stars, common sense dictates that we are not alone. Hell, we've barely even tapped into the knowledge our own solar system holds. More than likely, one of Saturn's moons or Jupiter's moons holds life of some sort (all it takes is one little bacteria to be discovered to confirm it).

We should turn our attention to moons like Ganymede, Titan, Europa, and Io before we start thinking about life in our galaxy... and life beyond our galaxy.

Perhaps Lovecraft summed it up best when he wrote (in "The Call of Cthulhu"):

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

[FIREWALL]

Now that you all mention it I, haven't heard a UFO being reported in a long time.

Even by a crackpot.


I guess the Visitors have done all the " Probeing " they need. :har:

For now anyways. :haha:

Maybe they never heard of San Francisco. Ya think ? :har:

[Torplexed]

If they existed and routinely visited, you would think in this age where everyone has a camera in their pocket in the form of a cell phone you would actually get an increase in UFO photos. Doesn't seem to be happening.

[HunterICX]

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5774/cartmank.jpg

''Goddamn it, they didn't do anything to my ass! It was just a dream!''

HunterICX

[Digital_Trucker]

It's an inevitability that there's life somewhere out there. The Drake Equation confirms it, ...........

How can the Drake equation confirm anything when parts of it are unknown (and possibly unknowable)? There may very well be other life in the universe, but the Drake equation does nothing to confirm or deny it.

[Jimbuna]

Now that you all mention it I, haven't heard a UFO being reported in a long time.

Even by a crackpot.


I guess the Visitors have done all the " Probeing " they need. :har:

For now anyways. :haha:

Maybe they never heard of San Francisco. Ya think ? :har:

They use star gates to visit now....much quicker :03:


http://imgcash2.imageshack.us/img407/1073/vortex04lw6.gif http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img407/8895/vortex05wo9.gif

[stabiz]

I have been instructed by the mother ship to strongly urge you humans to walk away from this discussion.:stare:

[August]

I have been instructed by the mother ship to strongly urge you humans to walk away from this discussion.:stare:

OMG! :o Only the freaking Tau Ceti's call it a "mothership" I must report your presence to my handlers in the Centauri Secret Service. This will mean interstellar war!

[Digital_Trucker]

OMG! :o Only the freaking Tau Ceti's call it a "mothership" I must report your presence to my handlers in the Centauri Secret Service. This will mean interstellar war!

Auntie Em, Autie Em, they're gonna start an interstellar war:timeout: Where's that thermonuclear proof vegetable cellar? Has anyone seen Toto?

[Platapus]

There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet, and the only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they Do... Not... Know about it!


:D

[August]

Auntie Em, Autie Em, they're gonna start an interstellar war:timeout: Where's that thermonuclear proof vegetable cellar? Has anyone seen Toto?

They're going to be using your vegetable cellar as a phaser bank emplacement. You and Auntie Em will have to report to the collection point, and your little dog too!

[Digital_Trucker]

They're going to be using your vegetable cellar as a phaser bank emplacement. You and Auntie Em will have to report to the collection point, and your little dog too!

Oh crap, where is that damn Lion when you need him (not that he'd be any good, the cowardly booger). OK, plan B, circle up the wagons and call the Lone Ranger and Tonto (no, not Tonto Goldstein:O:).

[Biggles]

Aliens exist. The size of the universe pretty much guarantee that.

Now wether they've visited us? I highly doubt so. The odds are pretty low, if you think about it - There's a lot of planets, and we've only been broadcasting for about, what, a hundred years? Radio waves only travel at light speed, after all.

Pretty much what he said. For me, their existance is pretty much obvious in the terms of logic. But visiting? No.

[Task Force]

Well you see they tryed visiting once... but found no sign of intelegence.:yep::up:

[longam]

I have proof

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a0/StarTrek-Gorn.jpg

[Blacklight]

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/BLACKL%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpgI have proof

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a0/StarTrek-Gorn.jpg

And he can save you a lot of money if you switch to Geico !!

[Rilder]

Aliens Exist: Yes
Aliens Visit Earth: Nope
Aliens look anything like us:Nope

Probability of a fanatic religious group gaining power and enslaving the aliens should they visit earth by claiming they don't look like us therefore aren't sentient: 85.3%

Probability of world war due to aliens landing in say Russia and USA nuking Russia because America thinks that Russia now has technology that could threaten them. : 94:5%

Probability of war with Aliens should they land on earth: 74.3%

[Letum]

Aliens look anything like us:Nope


Don't be so sure about that.
It may well be the case that only bi-peds with highly prehensile hands have
a high chance of developing as complex intelligence as us.

[Rilder]

Don't be so sure about that.
It may well be the case that only bi-peds with highly prehensile hands have
a high chance of developing as complex intelligence as us.

OR, we can't accept a non-bipedal life-form being as sentient as us.

[Stealth Hunter]

How can the Drake equation confirm anything when parts of it are unknown (and possibly unknowable)?

The point of it is to merely establish the likelihood of extraterrestrial civilizations within our own galaxy which we may come into contact with. It's really not hard to make conjectures on the subject, when all you need do is model it off our own planet.

There may very well be other life in the universe,

There definitely is. Just use common sense to reach that conclusion.

but the Drake equation does nothing to confirm or deny it.

Again, though, this is where you use common sense. Do you really think that all this:

http://mail.colonial.net/~rpavlik/scienceweb/images/hubble%20deep%20space.jpg

. . .has no life in it whatsoever? There are 10,000 galaxies in that photograph alone, and it doesn't even cover a fraction of the visible sky.

[Letum]

OR, we can't accept a non-bipedal life-form being as sentient as us.

That is certainly a possibility, but it seams more likely that other intelligent
beings would be bi-peds if we assume that the conditions required for
intelligent life are somewhat universal i.e. Earth-like.

At various times on earth completely separated groups of animals in similar
environments have followed similar evolutionary paths. Nature tends to tackle
the same problems in the same ways.

[Digital_Trucker]

The point of it is to merely establish the likelihood of extraterrestrial civilizations within our own galaxy which we may come into contact with. It's really not hard to make conjectures on the subject, when all you need do is model it off our own planet.

The formula establishes nothing. One of its factors is totally impossible to calculate (the odds of a planet sustaining life) and several of the other factors are easily fudged to generate any possibilities that you care to.



There definitely is. Just use common sense to reach that conclusion.

One mans common sense is another mans folly. Your common sense is folly. You have no way of knowing whether there is any other life in the universe or not. It seems that a "scientific" person, such as you claim to be, would demand proof (or at least evidence) of said life.



Again, though, this is where you use common sense. Do you really think that all this:

http://mail.colonial.net/%7Erpavlik/scienceweb/images/hubble%20deep%20space.jpg

. . .has no life in it whatsoever? There are 10,000 galaxies in that photograph alone, and it doesn't even cover a fraction of the visible sky.

Again, this is where you use common sense. Do you really believe that all of that just came from nowhere? If I used that kind of "common sense" in a debate regarding the existence of God, I'd be laughed out of the room by the so called "scientific" types (I believe you fall into that category). Why should I accept that "logic" when you're attempting to argue your point?



Having said all that, I do believe that there is probably life out there, but I don't know it to be a fact and your formula doesn't prove it to anyone.

[Skybird]

Clearly we can't give a precise probability to claims that aliens are visiting
Earth, but we can decide if it is more likely than not, even if we are working
with very little evidence one way or the other.

How?

[Task Force]

I wonder... If on anouther planet... in anouther galaxy... if they are haveing a conversation like this one.:rotfl:

[Jimbuna]

Well you see they tryed visiting once... but found no sign of intelegence.:yep::up:

Obviously....if it was your school spelling book that they read :DL

[Digital_Trucker]

I wonder... If on anouther planet... in anouther galaxy... if they are haveing a conversation like this one.:rotfl:

Most assuredly so, and accomplishing just as much as this one:D

[TDK1044]

What's interesting is that you can apply all the logic you want to this subject, but everything changes when you actually see one of these things. At that point, your life changes and logic goes out the window.

In my case, I wasn't looking at some distant object in the sky through a grainy quality domestic camcorder, I was looking at a huge, silent object, hovering about 500 feet from me and about 100 feet in the air.

I had two choices; become part of the whole UFO thing by reporting it, or simply take it as an incredible personal experience. I chose the latter.

[Letum]

Clearly we can't give a precise probability to claims that aliens are visiting
Earth, but we can decide if it is more likely than not, even if we are working
with very little evidence one way or the other.
How?

The same way we get all good knowledge.
We look at the refutable evidence for the hypothesis and use various tools of
reasoning to decide if the evidence makes the hypothesis more than likely.

Either:
A) There will be enough evidence for us to reason that the hypothesis is
more likely than not. In this case we can say that we know the hypothesis
to be true to some degree of certainty, however small.
or
B) There will not be enough evidence for us to reason that the hypothesis
is more likely than not. In this case we can say that we know the
hypothesis to be false to some degree of certainty, however small.

I can't imagine a situation in which the evidence we have makes it
impossible to reason one way or the other. Only refusal to do so would
result in a 'I don't know' answer.

[Task Force]

Obviously....if it was your school spelling book that they read :DL

:shifty:Howd ya know.:shifty::rotfl:

Jim... did they try to beam you up and take you home as a pet also.. lol:rotfl:

[Digital_Trucker]

The same way we get all good knowledge.
We look at the refutable evidence for the hypothesis and use various tools of
reasoning to decide if the evidence makes the hypothesis more than likely.

Either:
A) There will be enough evidence for us to reason that the hypothesis is
more likely than not. In this case we can say that we know the hypothesis
to be true to some degree of certainty, however small.
or
B) There will not be enough evidence for us to reason that the hypothesis
is more likely than not. In this case we can say that we know the
hypothesis to be false to some degree of certainty, however small.

I can't imagine a situation in which the evidence we have makes it
impossible to reason one way or the other. Only refusal to do so would
result in a 'I don't know' answer.

In other words, you make an educated guess.

[Jimbuna]

:shifty:Howd ya know.:shifty::rotfl:

Jim... did they try to beam you up and take you home as a pet also.. lol:rotfl:

Of course :DL


http://planetsmilies.net/alien-smiley-126.gif

[Task Force]

I just figured out why hunter dowent like those facehuggers.:rotfl:

[Letum]

In other words, you make an educated guess.


In so far as all our knowledge is the result of educated guesses, including things like "does the moon exist?", yes; one makes an educated guess.

[Skybird]

I can't imagine a situation in which the evidence we have makes it
impossible to reason one way or the other.

well, I can. Very often. Easily. As Paul Watzlawick once put it so very laconic and precise on a German-language speech: "Die 'Wirklichkeit', die wir mit unseren Sinnen wahrzunehmen glauben, wird von uns weniger gefunden als vielmehr erfunden." - "The 'reality' that we believe to perceive by our senses not so much gets found but more gets invented by us."

i wonder what "evidence" with regard pro or contra UFOs, that is beyond doubt to be taken as that, you consider to be sop special and unique and beyond dohb t that you dare to make a statement like the above. You seem to think that either science or human logic/reason/ratio has made "unthinkable" the theme or object which ti cannot adequately deral with. Having read quite a lot oif books on UFOs in a now quite distant past have cionvinced me of the opposite.

The only thing we can be really sure of is that humans have a very strong tendency to anthropomorphise and/or to reduce the rest of the universe to scales and standards human thinking is fit for. Intelligence researchers often say that probably we would be completely unable to recognise an intelligence that is either a.) too much superior to ours or is b.) too low beyond our level, as "intelligence". To think that our rationals are adequate to describe the rest of the universe in all it's diverse complexity, is just an expression of that antropomoprhising tendency, though a very arrogant (and by that: maybe typical human) one.

Science is no objective effort of finding truths. I arranges both random and arbitrary-systematic observations into artifical orders that matches the way we do observations, to improce our way to make further observations. Ultimate triuthgs is not so much our goal, although we make ourselves believeing that. to carry on with our same old ways - that is what science is after. Science wants to maintain itself. the way it does that is called the current "paradigm". sometimes paradiogms get replaced. but the new paradigms just fit better the purporse to make observations in a new, different weay, and sort them into categories and artificial orders. However, these new orders and categories are as arbitrary as before. They are just different.

the only way you can find out real truths about the universe your senses communicate to you, is by exmaining your own mind. If you want to know how the universe functions, find our how mind is functioning. If there would not be your mind, you even do not know if there is really something called a "universe". the ways and mechnisms by which your mind is forming the universe "in your mind" - decides the very shape of this universe.

So how can you be so sure like you claim you can be? ;) Don't get fooled by yourself.

[Jimbuna]

The truth is out there....does anyone know the Url? :hmmm:

[Digital_Trucker]

The truth is out there....does anyone know the Url? :hmmm:

I don't know it, but if you Google it, you might find it:D

[Rilder]

I wonder... If on anouther planet... in anouther galaxy... if they are haveing a conversation like this one.:rotfl:

Isn't there a theory out there that if the universe is infinite if you go far enough out you'll eventually meet yourself? :rotfl:

[Digital_Trucker]

Isn't there a theory out there that if the universe is infinite if you go far enough out you'll eventually meet yourself? :rotfl:

Only if you go fast enough;)

[Platapus]

I wonder... If on anouther planet... in anouther galaxy... if they are haveing a conversation like this one.:rotfl:

If they are, I want to know what mods they are using for their version of SH3?
:D

[Rilder]

If they are, I want to know what mods they are using for their version of SH3?
:D

Purple Lions X

[Letum]

I can't imagine a situation in which the evidence we have makes it
impossible to reason one way or the other.[...]
i wonder what "evidence" with regard pro or contra UFOs, that is beyond doubt to be taken as that, you consider to be sop special and unique and beyond dohb t that you dare to make a statement like the above. [...]So how can you be so sure like you claim you can be? ;) Don't get fooled by yourself.

You seam to be misunderstanding me again.
I don't consider any evidence or conclusions beyond doubt and I don't see why you might think I do.
I can only ask you to read my posts again carefully or repeat my self here.

[...]
the only way you can find out real truths about the universe your senses communicate to you, is by exmaining your own mind. [...]I was not intending to making any ontological or metaphysical claims.
If you really want me to, I can lay out my ontological such arguments for
our ability to find truths, but I think it is best you start a new thread if you
would like my thoughts on that as it will be too protracted and offtopic for
this thread. However, as I said, I was not intending to making any
ontological or metaphysical claims in this thread.

[FIREWALL]

Soooo .... This topic is still being Probed ? :haha:

[Dowly]

Yup, rrrright thru the bumhole.

[Jimbuna]

Yup, rrrright thru the bumhole.

Trust you :nope:

:DL

[FIREWALL]

Dowlys Sig looks like she's be " interrogated " :O: :haha:

[Stealth Hunter]

The formula establishes nothing.

So statistical probability means nothing? There are a lot of scientists out there who would disagree with you on that...

One of its factors is totally impossible to calculate (the odds of a planet sustaining life)

Not really. I mean, we've already found several distant planets similar to Earth out there, and more importantly, we've found water on local moons here in our own solar system.

and several of the other factors are easily fudged to generate any possibilities that you care to.

Such as?

You have no way of knowing whether there is any other life in the universe or not. It seems that a "scientific" person, such as you claim to be, would demand proof (or at least evidence) of said life.

Well if you want the best evidence, I need not look any further than the AH84001 meteor. The most dramatic piece of proof from it is the presence of microfossils of what is apparently nano-bacteria (it's positive for amino acids, just so you know) that looks like several types we have here on Earth, only much smaller. We know it's from Mars, so technically, you've got ET life.

Now you've got people who've created rebuttals on AH84001, but since 1984, we've compared two other meteors that have origins from Mars (Nakhla and Shegotty) that have seemingly confirmed the authenticity and validity of AH's meteor. There's a possibility that it's not what we think it is, but the overall evidence is pointing to it being perfectly valid and uncontaminated by mistaken information or accidental exposure to third party sources.

Again, this is where you use common sense. Do you really believe that all of that just came from nowhere?

Well there are plenty of people who believe this god character was just always there. If he's always existed, it's just as possible the universe has always existed, especially when you consider that we are actually part of the universe and can see it and know it exists, unlike a god.

If I used that kind of "common sense" in a debate regarding the existence of God, I'd be laughed out of the room by the so called "scientific" types (I believe you fall into that category).

Well in the first place, we wouldn't even be debating this issue in a scientific classroom/forum since science doesn't bother comment with experiments and tests on the supernatural to begin with.

So really, you're not very scientific by believing in God...

Why should I accept that "logic" when you're attempting to argue your point?

I don't care whether you do or don't.

[Stealth Hunter]

Dowlys Sig looks like she's be " interrogated " :O: :haha:

Basic Instinct... lol.

[Digital_Trucker]

I don't care whether you do or don't.

Then why argue the point? I'm certainly done arguing it with you and whatever it is that's in your pocket that's helping you with your scientific research.

[Stealth Hunter]

Then why argue the point?

Because there are others out there who might want to hear a different side. Plus, it gives me something to do.

[Task Force]

Well... I wonder how many of us have realy been abducted if aliens are realy visiting us.
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/5690/screenshot0137e.jpg

[Jimbuna]

It makes you wonder why all these stories about alien abduction seem to come out of America.

Maybe the aliens are wondering how a race of massively obese creatures, wearing hawaiian shirts, who have no idea about the geography of their own planet, somehow managed to develop the technology for space travel. :DL

[Platapus]

I somehow managed to develop the technology for space travel. :DL

Captured German Scientists?

[Jimbuna]

Captured German Scientists?

LOL :rotfl:

[Raptor1]

You idiots, you are concentrating all the knowledge they want into a single thread

At least don't make it easy for them

[Task Force]

It makes you wonder why all these stories about alien abduction seem to come out of America.

Maybe the aliens are wondering how a race of massively obese creatures, wearing hawaiian shirts, who have no idea about the geography of their own planet, somehow managed to develop the technology for space travel. :DL

cause are crazy people like to tell things to the press more than yours... lol