Galveston mayor visits Cuba

[Onkel Neal]

Total WTH?! moment. :o

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6385258.html (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6385258.html)

In 1900, Cuban meteorologists tried to warn Galveston about a catastrophic storm heading straight for the island. That outreach from the Cubans helped form a special bond between the American city and the island nation.

It’s a bond the mayor of Galveston seeks to build on in a visit to Cuba Wednesday that experts say may contribute to a thaw in U.S.-Cuban relations begun last week and allow both countries to share their experience in dealing with hurricanes.


I don't have a smilie for this one... :stare: talk about a publicity stunt.

[UnderseaLcpl]

This move does seem to have thinly veiled political motives, doesn't it?

Nonetheless I'm in favor of restoring relations and trade between the U.S. and Cuba. The nation is so desperately poor, it should be easy to exploit economically.
But some good could come of it for Cuba. The worst possible thing for communsim is to be exposed to the influence of freedom. That's why Communist nations go to such great lengths to be isolationaist.
Honestly, I don't even know why we continue the embargo. I understand the desire to refrain from supporting communism, but I think we could do a lot more damage to their government if we worked to open up relations.

[nikimcbee]

So the subsim club house will now be "Neal's house of cigars?":haha:

[Tchocky]

There can be no possibility of trade with Cuba, for exactly the same reasons that there can be no trade with Vietnam or China.

[Etienne]

There can be no possibility of trade with Cuba, for exactly the same reasons that there can be no trade with Vietnam or China.

You do realise China's one of the world's biggest exporter of manufactured goods?

[owner20071963]

Also China is now the Richest country in the World,
The only country able to help the World countries get out
of todays economic recession.

[Jimbuna]

Total WTH?! moment. :o

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6385258.html (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6385258.html)



I don't have a smilie for this one... :stare: talk about a publicity stunt.


http://media.bigoo.ws/content/gif/cartoon/cartoon_484.gif http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1526/twister3pg2.gif http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6290/windstorm1fz1.gif http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7606/twister1qr8.gif

[VipertheSniper]

You do realise China's one of the world's biggest exporter of manufactured goods?

You do realize that he was being sarcastic right?

[AVGWarhawk]

Personally, I see no reason not to open the doors a bit with Cuba. If not just for the cigars only:O:

[SteamWake]

"In 1900"... :doh:

Forgive me but I believe that was before Cuba allowed Russia to park nukes a couple hundred miles off out coast.

[AVGWarhawk]

"In 1900"... :doh:

Forgive me but I believe that was before Cuba allowed Russia to park nukes a couple hundred miles off out coast.


80 miles:03:

[Bewolf]

1. What was the political goal in having an embargo on Cuba?

2. Did this emabargo produce the projected results?

3. Are the cirmustances and reasons that resulted in this ebargo still valid today?


Answerings these questions should open up a bit more objective discussion over this topic, free of emotional nationalistics.

[AVGWarhawk]

1. What was the political goal in having an embargo on Cuba?

2. Did this emabargo produce the projected results?

3. Are the cirmustances and reasons that resulted in this ebargo still valid today?


Answerings these questions should open up a bit more objective discussion over this topic, free of emotional nationalistics.

1) Political goal was to not entertain Russia having nukes off the US shores.

2) Results were favorable.

3) Reasons it still in effect today, still a communist country I suppose. Still run by Castro who was not always the US best friend.

Other than that, I see no reason sanctions could not be lifted.

[FIREWALL]

Maybe we can put OUR missles there. :D

Hah !!! Chavez :har:

[Spike88]

I'm for opening relations with Cuba. That is if they dont turn on us and go to the Russians again.

[SteamWake]

Well thats alright the administration stated that Cuba was open to negotiations on virtually all aspects or trade and ending the embargo.

Unfortunatly the elder Castro (Fidel) came out and stated (paraphrased) "Thats not what I said !"

When you get right down to it the last thing Castro wants is open free contact with the outside world. He is just fine in his role of a despot.

So I fail to see what a visit by some Govener is supposed to accompliish.

[Bewolf]

Well thats alright the administration stated that Cuba was open to negotiations on virtually all aspects or trade and ending the embargo.

Unfortunatly the elder Castro (Fidel) came out and stated (paraphrased) "Thats not what I said !"

When you get right down to it the last thing Castro wants is open free contact with the outside world. He is just fine in his role of a despot.

So I fail to see what a visit by some Govener is supposed to accompliish.


As usual, it is not so much about the leaders of such countries, but their ppl. And the more sympathy the ppl have for the US, the harder it is for their respective leadership to wage their propaganda affairs to stay in power. As with Iran, in such a way the government is destabilised.

Simple.

[AVGWarhawk]

As usual, it is not so much about the leaders of such countries, but their ppl. And the more sympathy the ppl have for the US, the harder it is for their respective leadership to wage their propaganda affairs to stay in power. As with Iran, in such a way the government is destabilised.

Simple.

Agreed. Really, at this point, is Cuba really a threat? Hardly. Good Lord, they have the largest collection of cars from the 50's and they are taxi cabs. It is probably time to explore opening the doors to some trade and tourists.

[Tchocky]

3) Reasons it still in effect today, still a communist country I suppose. Still run by Castro who was not always the US best friend.

Also has to do with the large amount of Cuban-American voters in Florida.

[AVGWarhawk]

Also has to do with the large amount of Cuban-American voters in Florida.

Yes, probably an underlying factor for sure. We have seen how this administration plays. :shifty:

[Tchocky]

Yes, probably an underlying factor for sure. We have seen how this administration plays. :shifty:

What I meant was, it was politically beneficial to keep the embargo in place, due to the large amount of anti-Castro voters in Florida.

[Bewolf]

1) Political goal was to not entertain Russia having nukes off the US shores.

2) Results were favorable.

3) Reasons it still in effect today, still a communist country I suppose. Still run by Castro who was not always the US best friend.

Other than that, I see no reason sanctions could not be lifted.

Ah, thanks for that, Warhawk, missed it the first time I revisited this thread.

But is this really the same embargo imposed on Cuba in the course of the Cuba crisis? Just wondering, back then Cuba was cut of from all trade, esepcially russian shipping, not just US trade.

[Onkel Neal]

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7606/twister1qr8.gif

Yah. that works :)

Seriously, Cuba has been under a dictator as long as I have been alive. I know to some, that's no big deal but to me dictator = bad in every case.

[SteamWake]

Also has to do with the large amount of Cuban-American voters in Florida.

Indeed, having grown up in south florida I know first hand how this rolls.

The curious thing is that most cuban americans were staunch conservative Reganites whom sought only one thing, the downfall of the Castro's.

But give them a chance to send money 'home' or being able to bring friends and family to the US and they will be all over it.

[Skybird]

The latest indications that the US policy towards Cuba will become a bit more relaxed, has my support. Can't say the same regarding today'S new'S reports that due to a more relaxed US stance European diplomacy dares to start becoming closer with Hamas.

The "Obama doctrine" to start playing more softly with everybody, no matter whom, seems to produce a bag of mixed results, depending on the faction that gets treatment by it. In case of Cuba, I see little or no problem with it. With regard to Hamas and Iran, or any Islamic faction, I see US diplomacy being pushed into the defensive, and EU diplomacy becoming even more submissive to Islam. Regarding Pakistan and promising to give them even more money, I label that as a naive folly. Regarding North Korea - cannot judge at this time.

But Cuba -well, for the sake of the Cuban people, yes, try something new there, the past 40 years have not created anything more than a big block of ice - and Castro probably was the one Cuban suffering not at all from that. whenever I heared tourists reporting about their experience with the Cubans, they always seem to have only good things to say, how friendly they are despite their economic misery, how relaxed life is going despite the problems, and that one must not be afraid to walk alone on the city's streets in the middle of the night.

It cannot all be bad about Cuba. One of the very few remaining places on earth I eventually would consider to give one more travel to.

[AVGWarhawk]

Ah, thanks for that, Warhawk, missed it the first time I revisited this thread.

But is this really the same embargo imposed on Cuba in the course of the Cuba crisis? Just wondering, back then Cuba was cut of from all trade, esepcially russian shipping, not just US trade.

Yes, that is about it. If you are shipping nukes from Russia to Cuba, 80 miles off our shores, you pretty much done with anything and are under the glass. (as a side note, the USS Torsk was part of that picket to turn the Russian ships around). Not to mention, Cuba is Communist with a dictator. Basically on the other side of the spectrum of how the US operates.

[AVGWarhawk]

What I meant was, it was politically beneficial to keep the embargo in place, due to the large amount of anti-Castro voters in Florida.

Ah, totally missed your point. Sorry sir!:salute:

[AVGWarhawk]

Yah. that works :)

Seriously, Cuba has been under a dictator as long as I have been alive. I know to some, that's no big deal but to me dictator = bad in every case.

Same as I Neal. Cuba has always been under the thumb since I was a kid. Heck, my dad was almost part of the Bay of Pigs. His number was not selected and he did not go.

[Jimbuna]

I thought Castro was old now and had stepped aside for his younger brother Raul......or is this just a smokescreen? :hmmm:

http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13518718

[Bewolf]

Yes, that is about it. If you are shipping nukes from Russia to Cuba, 80 miles off our shores, you pretty much done with anything and are under the glass. (as a side note, the USS Torsk was part of that picket to turn the Russian ships around). Not to mention, Cuba is Communist with a dictator. Basically on the other side of the spectrum of how the US operates.

Yeah, but the Embargo we are talking about now just applies to trade inbetween Cuba and the US, it's not a complete cut off from the rest of the world like at the times of the crisis. Insofar I always wondered about the usefulness of this embargo anyways, it beeing more a principle then a problem solving or pratical measure. Disliking Castro and detaining communism is more then understandable in my book, but one should have thought it has to go hand in hand with a plan for future action based on possible outcomes.

This, however, has never been done, at least not in a proportion that I heared about it, yet. It appears to be a measure taken out of the circumstances back then and just carried over because nobody ever really thought about what to do next. To just sit it out until Castro dies and communism hopefully with him does not make the impression of a seriously thought out plan to bring this conflict to an end. At latest when the USSR collapsed this thought process could have started.

Insofar I do not see any harm in opening up to Cuba, really. It's a place in dire need of modernisation and investments, it's a win win, really. And if things go wrong after all, for some reason, the US surely is large and powerful enough to respond in kind before Cuba becomes dangerous in whatever regard.

[SteamWake]

I thought Castro was old now and had stepped aside for his younger brother Raul......or is this just a smokescreen? :hmmm:

http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13518718


Its up for debate, some even say Castro is dead and they have a body double in his place. Cubans are big on conspiracys.

At any rate whatever Raul said to the administration evidently was 'mis interperted' according to Fidel.

Fidel while aged and frail still pulls the strings.

[Max2147]

The US trade embargo on Cuba predates the Cuban Missile Crisis. The embargo was put in place in February, the Crisis didn't happen until October.

The travel restrictions followed in 1963. All those policies were Presidential directives until 1992, when Congress passed them into law. The restrictions were reinforced in 1996 after the Brothers to the Rescue shootdown.

The naval blockade during the Cuban Missile Crisis was completely different. It was brief and was lifted after the Crisis ended.

The trade embargo and other restrictions have been huge failures. The goal was to get Castro out of power. In fact, they've helped keep Castro in power for all these years. It allowed Castro and friends to blame any problems in Cuba on the US embargo, thus keeping people blind to the flaws in the socialist system.

If we lift the embargo and the travel restrictions, socialism in Cuba will disappear within a couple years. Cubans will be flooded with American goods and rich American tourists, and the lies they've been told about the superiority of socialism will be exposed. The only way the Castro clique will stay in power is if they morph Cuba into a socialist in name only country like China.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah, but the Embargo we are talking about now just applies to trade inbetween Cuba and the US, it's not a complete cut off from the rest of the world like at the times of the crisis. Insofar I always wondered about the usefulness of this embargo anyways, it beeing more a principle then a problem solving or pratical measure. Disliking Castro and detaining communism is more then understandable in my book, but one should have thought it has to go hand in hand with a plan for future action based on possible outcomes.

This, however, has never been done, at least not in a proportion that I heared about it, yet. It appears to be a measure taken out of the circumstances back then and just carried over because nobody ever really thought about what to do next. To just sit it out until Castro dies and communism hopefully with him does not make the impression of a seriously thought out plan to bring this conflict to an end. At latest when the USSR collapsed this thought process could have started.

Insofar I do not see any harm in opening up to Cuba, really. It's a place in dire need of modernisation and investments, it's a win win, really. And if things go wrong after all, for some reason, the US surely is large and powerful enough to respond in kind before Cuba becomes dangerous in whatever regard.

You pretty much covered it. The one sentence you wrote concerning possible future outcome, etc. Sometimes I wonder if a few Presidents look beyond the 4 years of their tenure. Those that don't only look to th end of their term as the only future concerning them. Although this is hard to examine as JFK did not finish his 4 years. Who knows what JFK would have done in his last year as president or another 4 more years if elected and he was not assassinated. Only conjecture. At this point, you are correct, embargos for Cuba are useless.

[AVGWarhawk]

I thought Castro was old now and had stepped aside for his younger brother Raul......or is this just a smokescreen? :hmmm:

http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13518718

I guess a bit of both. Most think Castro is dead and this is a darn good stand in. Who really knows.

[AVGWarhawk]

The US trade embargo on Cuba predates the Cuban Missile Crisis. The embargo was put in place in February, the Crisis didn't happen until October.

The travel restrictions followed in 1963. All those policies were Presidential directives until 1992, when Congress passed them into law. The restrictions were reinforced in 1996 after the Brothers to the Rescue shootdown.

The naval blockade during the Cuban Missile Crisis was completely different. It was brief and was lifted after the Crisis ended.

The trade embargo and other restrictions have been huge failures. The goal was to get Castro out of power. In fact, they've helped keep Castro in power for all these years. It allowed Castro and friends to blame any problems in Cuba on the US embargo, thus keeping people blind to the flaws in the socialist system.

If we lift the embargo and the travel restrictions, socialism in Cuba will disappear within a couple years. Cubans will be flooded with American goods and rich American tourists, and the lies they've been told about the superiority of socialism will be exposed. The only way the Castro clique will stay in power is if they morph Cuba into a socialist in name only country like China.

The travel restriction stemmed from the Bay of Pigs deal?

[Max2147]

It's hard to say that X led to Y led to Z.

The chronology, for what it's worth, was:

April 1961: Bay of Pigs
February 1962: Economic embargo
October 1962: Cuban Missile Crisis
February 1963: Travel restrictions, Cuban assets in US frozen

Again, it's hard to say that one event led directly to another. I think the bigger issue is that the Cuban American population in Florida was making a lot of noise around that time. One of the biggest changes today is that there's a new generation of Cuban Americans that have never been to Cuba and don't have the memory of fleeing Castro.

[AVGWarhawk]

It's hard to say that X led to Y led to Z.

The chronology, for what it's worth, was:

April 1961: Bay of Pigs
February 1962: Economic embargo
October 1962: Cuban Missile Crisis
February 1963: Travel restrictions, Cuban assets in US frozen

Again, it's hard to say that one event led directly to another. I think the bigger issue is that the Cuban American population in Florida was making a lot of noise around that time. One of the biggest changes today is that there's a new generation of Cuban Americans that have never been to Cuba and don't have the memory of fleeing Castro.

Good point! I have to agree with Beowolf also, what, if any, is Cuba a threat to the US? Not much. We will see happens. Again, I see nothing wrong with lightening up a bit. It kinds of feels like they have been in the 'time out chair' long enough. Most of this is not really fresh in my mind. I was born in 1965. I just grew up with the understanding Cuba is run by a dictator who is chummy with the Russians. There was some nukes parked off our shores and Cuba is going to get what is coming to them. Time moves on though.

[Jimbuna]

I guess a bit of both. Most think Castro is dead and this is a darn good stand in. Who really knows.

Probably only old Fidel :DL

[AVGWarhawk]

Probably only old Fidel :DL

I suspect it is Fidel. A lot of speculation on this. Every picture I see it sure looks like Fidel. Been looking at the guy for a long time. I think the Cuban cigars have a special fountain of youth in them. :D

[Jimbuna]

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9585/fidel2.jpg (http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fidel2.jpg)

[Tchocky]

*mentions missiles in Turkey*

[AVGWarhawk]

George Burns, cigar smoker. Made to 100 years old. Sumpin in dem ceegars.

http://www.imitatorsofrocklegends.com/images/GEORGE_BURNS_BY_AL_MAGER.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

*mentions missiles in Turkey*

What missiles? We ain't seen no missiles in Turkey.:D

[Jimbuna]

Well apparently someone did :hmmm:

http://tvotw.com/0192_10_12_1962.htm

[AVGWarhawk]

What missiles? We don't no nutt'in about no stink'in missiles:D

[Jimbuna]

...and neither do the Turks :DL

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/3075/imamrockettx8.gif