Radar Range

[Sniper31]

Okay folks, what are the ranges of the AI's radar (roughly). As a rule of thumb, I use 5nm as a visual cue to dive (weather and time of day dependent), but I am not sure what to use as a reference when dealing with radar equipped enemies. Any and all input welcomed. :salute:

[Torplexed]

To tell you the truth I don't think I've ever encountered any radar-equipped Japanese escorts. They didn't start getting fitted with radar until late in the war and from what I've read Japanese radar sets weren't too effective on small surface targets like subs. They do eventually get radar detectors that can tip them off to your presence if you're using it constantly.

[MonTana_Prussian]

To tell you the truth I don't think I've ever encountered any radar-equipped Japanese escorts. They didn't start getting fitted with radar until late in the war and from what I've read Japanese radar sets weren't too effective on small surface targets like subs. They do eventually get radar detectors that can tip them off to your presence if you're using it constantly.

The IJN gave priority for Radar to CV,BB,CA. Escorts were far down the list.

Some aircraft started getting sets in 1944,Jills,Judys,Bettys for example.

[Torplexed]

Yeah...they also tended to prioritize air search radars over surface search types. Understandable considering the devastating Midway experience. Surprisingly, some Japanese planes had MAD gear, but I don't know if that's in the sim.

[Akula4745]

If my targeting chart is to be believed I have been within 6000 yards of an escort on the surface at night and not been detected. I would imagine a sub would not create much of a radar target... but at such a short range you would think I would stick out like a sore thumb! No surface radar would certainly explain it...

Akula4745

[Sniper31]

All good points and info guys...much thanks. I did not think that escorts were using radar, but in SHIV, one never knows.:03:

[Torplexed]

I haven't fought too many battles in 1944 or '45 when Japanese escorts may have finally started to get radar fits. It's possible the experience of others who have may be different. From the historical record the Japanese had a lot of teething problems with radar as their sets were unreliable in the tropics and the lack of technicians meant crew training left a lot to be desired.

[LukeFF]

If my targeting chart is to be believed I have been within 6000 yards of an escort on the surface at night and not been detected. I would imagine a sub would not create much of a radar target... but at such a short range you would think I would stick out like a sore thumb! No surface radar would certainly explain it...

Japanese surface search radar (Type 22) was only good to about 7000 meters (a shade under 4 miles) against submarines and was blind under 1500 meters, not to mention it had only about an 80% reliability rate (all of this is modeled in RFB, except for the reliability part). That, and the radar fitted to their ASW aircraft was generally deemed by the pilots to be practically worthless. All said, the picture one gets is that radar was only a minor annoyance to American sub crews in the last months of the war (with notable exceptions, of course).

[LukeFF]

Some aircraft started getting sets in 1944,Jills,Judys,Bettys for example.

Bettys were captured early in 1944 with radar sets fitted, so it is safe to say they had been operating with radar since at least late 1943.

[gimpy117]

Japanese surface search radar (Type 22) was only good to about 7000 meters (a shade under 4 miles) against submarines and was blind under 1500 meters, not to mention it had only about an 80% reliability rate (all of this is modeled in RFB, except for the reliability part). That, and the radar fitted to their ASW aircraft was generally deemed by the pilots to be practically worthless. All said, the picture one gets is that radar was only a minor annoyance to American sub crews in the last months of the war (with notable exceptions, of course).

wow might as well use the old MK 1. eyeball!!

[Sniper31]

wow might as well use the old MK 1. eyeball!!


There IS a lot to be said about the Mk I Eyeball....especially if it is calibrated.

So, basically, not too much to worry about in SHIV regarding IJN units and surface radar is what I am getting from you all.

[LukeFF]

wow might as well use the old MK 1. eyeball!!

That actually was what the Japanese ASW pilots told the Americans after the war ended, in the Naval Technical Mission to Japan reports:

The patrol plans in Figures 13 and 14 were used for visual search only since it was the general opinion that Japanese radar was so poor it was foolish to use it when the visibility was good enough for visual search.

-Japanese Anti-Submarine Warfare, page 18

Radar was seldom used for search because of the lack of confidence of the Japanese in their equipment.

-Same source as above, page 24

[Peto]

Luke--as usual--hits it out of the park :yeah:. I'll only add that not only was Japanese radar poor but they had very few operators that really knew how to make the most of it. Being able to calibrate a radar system properly is 9/10 of being able to use it effectively.

As far as the game operates: I just finished a patrol in the Formosa Straits in Sept of 44. Because of the shallow waters, I chose to make all my attacks on the surface at night. Everything I attacked was escorted (kind of unusual) and I was able to shoot from ranges of 2500-3500 yards and get away undetected--even when it was clear. Just don't dive right away when the escorts start shooting--it might just be star shells...

[MonTana_Prussian]

Bettys were captured early in 1944 with radar sets fitted, so it is safe to say they had been operating with radar since at least late 1943.

True,but thyose were mostly,IIRC,experimental sets,and it did not become more common until mid 1944.

Good point though. I wonder if this is contained in the game though?

[Torplexed]

There IS a lot to be said about the Mk I Eyeball....especially if it is calibrated.

So, basically, not too much to worry about in SHIV regarding IJN units and surface radar is what I am getting from you all.

Yup...sure sounds like it. You have the priceless electronic warfare edge in this war. ;) The enemy is in the dark for the most part. They had good eyes for night fighting though. Savo Island proved that although under surface battle conditions.

[MonTana_Prussian]

The nproblem with the Japanese and Radar was, that they viewed it as 'Defensive',a warning device as opposed to an 'Offensive' search device.

They eventually figured it out,but far too late.

[Peto]

The nproblem with the Japanese and Radar was, that they viewed it as 'Defensive',a warning device as opposed to an 'Offensive' search device.

They eventually figured it out,but far too late.

That's a good point. Much the same attitude prevailed regarding sonar operators early on. The general attitude was such that it was more manly to be a gun loader than it was to search for and locate an enemy to actually shoot at. They did change that song though and eventually turned out some very good sonar operators. I'm sure glad they didn't get hedge-hog...

[MonTana_Prussian]

That's a good point. Much the same attitude prevailed regarding sonar operators early on. The general attitude was such that it was more manly to be a gun loader than it was to search for and locate an enemy to actually shoot at. They did change that song though and eventually turned out some very good sonar operators. I'm sure glad they didn't get hedge-hog...


Yeah,a Japanese 'USS England" would not have been pleasant!

[Torplexed]

They did change that song though and eventually turned out some very good sonar operators. I'm sure glad they didn't get hedge-hog...

Didn't some Japanese escorts (like the Kaikobans) have some form of forward firing ASW mortar?

[Peto]

Yeah,a Japanese 'USS England" would not have been pleasant!

Roger that!

I'm not positive on the Kaikobans having ahead thrown weapons--I don't think they did (although I could also be wrong). But they did have K-guns all over the deck and carried 120 dc's or more... Slow little guys though. That's one of the reasons US skippers preferred the surface attack late in the war. They knew they could out-run many of the escorts...

[MonTana_Prussian]

Roger that!

I'm not positive on the Kaikobans having ahead thrown weapons--I don't think they did. But they did have K-guns all over the deck and carried 120 dc's or more... Slow little guys though. That's one of the reasons US skippers preferred the surface attack late in the war. They knew they could out-run many of the escorts...

I beleive some Japanese escorts had 'Depth Charge Throwers',at leat according to CombinedFleet.com.

[Peto]

I beleive some Japanese escorts had 'Depth Charge Throwers',at leat according to CombinedFleet.com.

I'll check that out. Sometimes though K-guns are called depth charge throwers as that's what they did. K-guns threw them out to the sides though. But you've given me something to look up and an opportunity to learn something I didn't know! :up:

[Torplexed]

This is the item I was thinking of...from navweaps.com

A 15 cm (5.9") ASW mortar was developed for transports and merchant ships. This was in a cradle mounting allowing 360 degree traverse and had recoil and runout cylinders. The projectile weighed about 60 lbs. (27 kg) and could range out to a maximum of 4,500 yards (4,100 m).
The Navy 81 mm mortar was also carried by many escorts, firing standard projectiles.
Finally, a 15 cm (5.9") rocket propelled DC with a range of 3,280 yards (3,000 meters) was developed in April 1945 but this saw no active service.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMJAP_ASW.htm

Couldn't have been too effective. You don't hear much about them.

[MonTana_Prussian]

This is the item I was thinking of...from navweaps.com

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMJAP_ASW.htm

Couldn't have been too effective. You don't hear much about them.

True,I have never heard much about these sort of weapons in the IJN inventory. it all comes back to the Japanese Military mindset,defensive measures were deemed less than 'Samurai' to them,and took a poor second place to offensive weapons/tactics.