Not quite getting this....using the PK

[OldnSlow]

Hi Guys,
Hope someone can assist me. Have just started playing SH4 and want to be as realistic as possible. I want to manually target ships using the Werner Sobe method shown in his tutorial videos. I have watched them numerous times and have written down and copied everything he does but my torps usually miss astern or just one hits right aft. Werners instructions are pretty clear and I follow them precisely but I must have something wrong.
BTW, I have used the Dick O'Kane method to great effect thanks to Rockin Robbins videos :up:, so I know I can hit them, but would really like to be able to use the PK. Werner always seems to hit midships!

I am using TM, RSRDC and Pacific Environment.

[Lord Kelvin]

Well, I'm running RFB1.4 with NSM4, and I haven't had problems sinking stuff. Usually it just takes lots of practice, but there are a few things that I tend to do:

1. Take distance measurements while sitting still

2. Recalculate the target's position, speed, and bearing multiple times before taking your shot

3. Set torpedoes for contact above the target's draft


I'm generally paranoid, so I tend to sit still while trying to take measurements, or at least without changing my course and speed. I also tend to spot my targets farther out and try to get a good idea of its general speed and course while I maneuver into position, and use the previous calculations as a base to plot my final firing solution. Remember that the farther apart you take bearing and distance, the more accurate your solution will be.

I'm not sure if TM accounts for the Mark 14's deep-running issues since I don't have TM, but that's part of my reason for #3, even if they do run deep by 5 or 10 feet at least one of my torpedoes will always find its mark.

The rest is mainly practice though. And another thing to remember is, if you don't have a good approach, then you can always back away out of visual range, race ahead of your target's course to a better spot, and take your shot from there. It takes time and patience, but it's also worth it.

[OldnSlow]

Just found this while trawling around..

For Trigger Maru Overhauled: It should be noted that SCAF is incorporated in the latest TMO 1.7 edition released March 31, 2009.

In this thread; http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126016&page=13

The only mention of SCAF (which I had never heard of until now) in the TM documentation was a mention in the credits. I suppose the moral of the story is, don't install mods until you have read and understood all changes implemented.

So I think that the only thing I was doing incorrectly was inputting target range on the stadimeter using the wrong top reference point. I haven't tested it yet and hope I'm correct - only time will tell!

Thank you for your advice Lord Kelvin, the speedy reply is much appreciated. :salute:

[Lord Kelvin]

Heh, I think RFB has this too, but they were nice enough to color the mast point in red in the recognition manual, so that I automatically know where to set the stadimeter every time I identify a ship.

[Rockin Robbins]

I wonder if having different reference points for different targets isn't more confusing than just using mastheads all the time?

The real guys had heights of different parts of the target in the recognition manual, so they could choose whether to use stack height, cabin height, deck or masthead. Then they manually dialed that height into the stadimeter before they took the sighting.

Would that be cool or what? Unfortunately, the game is just a bit different, making necessary choices like Capn Scurvy made for SCAF.

Then there's the other reality angle, that we have great success in properly identifying our targets because we have only a few dozen and we know them all. The real captains misidentified more targets than they identified. That means that the stadimeter heights were set wrong to begin with and they had to know this and hit their targets anyway.

Their trump card was direct input of radar range into the TDC, which we do not have. As long as their radar was working range wasn't a problem for the real subs. Unfortunately the radar wasn't always working (another flaw in our game, which has a perfect radar). I read in one sub's log (O'Kanes?) that his radar quit working and he was going to have to spend twice as many torpedoes to get any hits from then on. Half the torps wasted because of radar malfunction! That's how important it was, and how unreliable stadimeter range was.

Oh, a possibility on your missing astern. There is one thing that will have you missing astern all the time. No, I just thought of another one! The most common reason is not opening the torpedo tube doors before you shoot. It takes 10 seconds or so for them to open, so it's best to open them before you start entering TDC data.

The second thing, and one that Werner doesn't cover at all is that the order you enter data into the TDC is vitally important. If you think about what is happening, you are constructing a virtual target in your computer, the TDC is the torpedo data computer, and making it move in the same place, speed and course as the real target. Let's enter the info in the wrong order and see what happens. First, flip on the PK and figure out the speed. It's 5 knots. Enter that into the TDC and the virtual target at whatever range the TDC already has (has nothing to do with your target!) starts moving on whatever course is already there at 5 knots! Then we'll measure the range with stadimeter. Now for a brief instant, the target is positioned on top of the real one, but it moves at the wrong course at 5 knots away from the real target. It will continue to run away until you input an AoB, which tells the TDC what the target course is. Finally you measure the AoB, the TDC position has now run away from the real position quite a distance and is moving the same course and speed. If you shoot, you'll miss. Understand?

Now let's do it right. First, enter speed and course to tell the target position which direction and how fast to move. ALWAYS LAST, do the stadimeter measurement to tell the TDC where he is. Then the TDC will plot the position and IMMEDIATELY begin to move it at the same course and speed as the target. It will remain right on top of the target so long as your measurements are right. You can check this on your attack map before you shoot. Provided your torpedo tube doors are open you will hit where you aim now.

Many problems with manual targeting accuracy come down to something as simple as what order you enter the data. Nobody covers this and I don't really know why. It's vital if you want to sink your enemy.

[CapnScurvy]

So you guys thought the red marks on the Recognition Manual images were from your pizza smeared fingers? The marks are the reference points for Stadimeter use. Each ship can have a different one depending on what is chosen. For the most part, the placements were chosen to "center" the reference position AND to pick areas that are easier to see than a mast top that "fades" from view with the rocking of the ship. A funnel top is much easier to see than a mast top. These positions were "calibrated" to be correct, unlike the stock mast heights. For instance, the Hiryu in both Stock and SCAF, uses the mast as a reference point (notice the "flag" on the SCAF RecManual, it's telling you to use the top of it for the reference point. The mast would have to be at the "top" of the flag right?) The stock mast height is 31 meters high. In an average distance of 1200m that 31 meter mast height will give you a 220 meter error in manually found range. Can't hit a target the size of a city block? That's why. The true mast height should be 6 & a half meters taller for an accurate measurement.

One part of your original question was why is my torpedoes always striking at the stern? Are you opening the torpedo doors before firing? In automatic firing this is the major reason for striking the target at the stern. That's with the computer doing the work for you!! All you need to do is watch for the green triangle to appear and hit the fire button. Point and shoot. And still guys wonder why the torpedoes miss off center. It's because they forget to open the doors. There's a lag time put into the gyro angle if you forget to do it (tricky of the devs, don't you think).

The real guys had heights of different parts of the target in the recognition manual, so they could choose whether to use stack height, cabin height, deck or masthead. Then they manually dialed that height into the stadimeter before they took the sighting.


I've been looking at just that. The problem is making the Attack Data Tool (that's the round, upper right hand device you manually use to input Speed, Aob etc.) contain the values for all the targets. Ever notice the mast height dial only has a scale starting at 15 and goes up to 130 (this is for both Metric and Imperial play!?!) Ships like the ISE have mast heights of 164 yards tall, so to make a correct Attack Data Tool to show the needed measurements a new tool is needed. That's no problem, plenty of good tools for making dials out there. The problem is the game makes the stock figures work by doing the math internally. In other words the Attack Data tool is just for show with the mast height figures, the real figuring is done hard coded through it's internal math process. That's why the figure of 164 yards doesn't need to be represented on the tool. I've seen the parameters for making the tool work but I'm not sharp enough to make heads or tails out of them. Something about Logarithmic values which are over my comprehension of spelling kat.

[Rockin Robbins]

Yeah, Capn, that makes all our choices bad ones, likely to irritate someone. The real captains liked to use the deck heights on carriers! It's hard to mess up THAT measurement...

[OldnSlow]

No, Mr Scurvy, I didn't think the red marks were from pizza, I had no idea what they were. As I stated in my initial post, I am very new to this game. All I knew initially was what I had gleaned from the collection of tutorial videos posted on this forum which I found quite a lot to take in at one time. I have learned a little more now just by browsing through the forum. Thank you all for your help.

BTW, it was the stadimeter range input that I was inputting incorrectly. Since I stumbled onto the SCAF thread and discovered what to do, I can generally hit the target.

[CapnScurvy]

OldnSlow, I just noticed your new to the forum. Let me say Welcome!!

I know TMO 1.7 doesn't do a very good job at explaining what SCAF (Ship Centered, Accuracy Fix) does or how to use it. Ducimus kind of skipped the details. Sorry about the pizza stain remark, I couldn't resist :D.

[Rockin Robbins]

No, Mr Scurvy, I didn't think the red marks were from pizza, I had no idea what they were. As I stated in my initial post, I am very new to this game. All I knew initially was what I had gleaned from the collection of tutorial videos posted on this forum which I found quite a lot to take in at one time. I have learned a little more now just by browsing through the forum. Thank you all for your help.

BTW, it was the stadimeter range input that I was inputting incorrectly. Since I stumbled onto the SCAF thread and discovered what to do, I can generally hit the target.

Excellent! Good job figuring out the manual targeting wrinkle. Once you get over the learning curve, it's the highlight of the game. Welcome to Subsim!

[Akula4745]

The second thing, and one that Werner doesn't cover at all is that the order you enter data into the TDC is vitally important. If you think about what is happening, you are constructing a virtual target in your computer, the TDC is the torpedo data computer, and making it move in the same place, speed and course as the real target. Let's enter the info in the wrong order and see what happens. First, flip on the PK and figure out the speed. It's 5 knots. Enter that into the TDC and the virtual target at whatever range the TDC already has (has nothing to do with your target!) starts moving on whatever course is already there at 5 knots! Then we'll measure the range with stadimeter. Now for a brief instant, the target is positioned on top of the real one, but it moves at the wrong course at 5 knots away from the real target. It will continue to run away until you input an AoB, which tells the TDC what the target course is. Finally you measure the AoB, the TDC position has now run away from the real position quite a distance and is moving the same course and speed. If you shoot, you'll miss. Understand?

Now let's do it right. First, enter speed and course to tell the target position which direction and how fast to move. ALWAYS LAST, do the stadimeter measurement to tell the TDC where he is. Then the TDC will plot the position and IMMEDIATELY begin to move it at the same course and speed as the target. It will remain right on top of the target so long as your measurements are right. You can check this on your attack map before you shoot. Provided your torpedo tube doors are open you will hit where you aim now.

Many problems with manual targeting accuracy come down to something as simple as what order you enter the data. Nobody covers this and I don't really know why. It's vital if you want to sink your enemy.

Many thanks for this, RR!!!

[Rockin Robbins]

Whew! I always worry when I explain that, that my explanation is too complicated and people don't understand why the order is really important. I'll bet a lot of people read it and still have trouble visualizing the process. Maybe a video would help.

[Akula4745]

I understood perfectly, RR... and I'm gonna try it out tonight. Thanks for taking the time to share it!