turkey stalls NATO over reasons of religion and freedom of speech

[Skybird]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7982775.stm

Turkey has followed it's threat to block the naming of a new general secretary, on the main reason of not a Kurdish radio station allowed to broadcast from Denmark, but about the Danish prime ministre's defence of freedom of speech and his non-withdrawing stand during the Muhammad-cartoon rows when he refused to censor medias in compliance with Islamic demands. That way Turkey sends a clear signal that it wants free speech and free media being forbidden if they do not bow to Islamic demands, and stalls the NATO summit and prevents the candiate that all other 27 NATO members want. Turkey also lists as a foul excuse it'S concern about what other islamic nations may think abou NATO - as if non-NATO-members would have any word in the issue, or NATO has any obligation to comply with Islamic demands.

Just imagine the power given to Turkey to block all Europe if europe does not comply with the Turkish fundamentalist government's intention to push Islam in europe, if Turkey would be allowed into the EU. Instead of considering Turkey'S EU membership, we should start thinking about how to get this foreign, Europe-hostile power out of NATO as well. We have to finally learn it: Islam wants very different things than what NATO, the EU, and Western constitutions and cultural values want, and before sharing values with europe and being part of european culture, Turkey in the main is this: idslamic, and the AKP being a deeply fundamentalist party. Turkish society and adminstrative and government offices have suffered a seriouzs Isdlamisation since the AKP took over. The rural areas, I know by experience, always have been arch-Islamic and extremely conservative anyway. This is where the vast majority of Turkish population lives. Only tourists never leaving their tourist ressorts judge the country by it's Westenised hotel culture and metropoles. But you do not learn Mexico by drinking Tequila in a hotel lobby.

There is no doubt, however, that the western Islam-friendly masochists and the philantrophic friends of peaceful multicultural mankind will do their best to hammer home the message and burn it into our brains again that Turkey's objection is legitimate and that religion and Islam - as always - have nothing, really nothing to do with it. In the end, limiting free speech and free media in the name of free, unlimited Islam, is no limitation at all, but a cultural gain for all, isn't it. :88)

Poor German hosts of the summit. Merkel without doubt will do her best to reinterpret the desaster as a success. But instead of doing that, the Turkish policy should be let shine in the mdia unhindered - so that finally, finally even the last sleeping drunk idiot in the most forsaken back corner of the european wilderness gets the message that islam and European culture are two very different and very antagonistic things, and that it is of utmost priority not to allow neither Turkey nor any other non-European, islamic country into the EU. It's bad enough that the gang-territories of Albania already have allowed into NATO recently.

[Schroeder]

We really should make sure that this country doesn't join the EU.:nope:
It's already bad enough as it is even without them.

[Skybird]

Brandnew in, Obama bought the turks by newly creating a special office just for them. While they are said to agree to Rasmussen, I object this move, since I do not like the prospect of such Bakshish being payed to an ideologic blackmailer, and because the new office should especially govern NATO'S relation to Muslim nations. What is so special about Muslim nations that these need a special office beside the already existing General secretary of NATO? So, from now on there will be a weakened General Secretary, a NATO top leadership now needing to synchronise three instead of just two tongues (General Secretary, Military Top Commander, and this new Turkish office), and we again deliovered Islam the message that wer accept Islam to play a special role in the world that we accept by designing special terms and procedures just for it, and that nobody else int he world needs or wants.

Fantastic.

Everything but conflict. Pay every price, no matter how high it may be, just to avoid confronting the problem and maintaining the impression that all is nice and well. Take me by the word - it is only a question of time befopre the Turks want more bowing of NATO to Islam. Like they already demand - and practice - massive national Turkish influence in internal German policy making in order to boost Turkish islam in Germany, save it from needing to adapt to German cultural standards and ddefending Turks from any demand for integration - a reasonable and justified demand for integration that Erdogan just some months ago brandmarked as a crime against humanity, when he called Turks in Germany during his German visit to actively resist any calls for integration, and remain Turkish, and stay for themselves. Translating that from Turkish to Western language: you do not demand Islam to integrate and adapt to your home culture - but you adapt yourself to it, even in your home country, and give Islam special status that even your home religion does not claim anymore.

Obama showed some signs of naivety recently. A world without nuclear weapons, and a roadmap for that, he said, just two days ago, ignoring in that speech any thought about that being a mutual deal, and ignoring north Korea, Iran. And having decided for massive boosts of finacial aid to Pakistan - a totally misled, naive waste of money and direct support for the enemies which I bitterly criticised already during the Bush era. And now this honoring of Turkish claims for a special role for Islam. He means it well, no doubt - but you can do huge damage even when meaning it well. And most of the time this seem to happen: the greater damages often are done by those meaning it well.

[Bewolf]

Unluckily the world is grey, not black and white. And politics have to adjust to that. Not a condition I like, not at all, and I generally agree to what was said here.

But now that the deed is done and destructive ramblings won't help the case at all, I'd like to give an alternative outlook towards the event, Tukeys success in influencing NATO politics is a convincing arguments for the NATOs reputation of respecting their member countries, no matter the cultural background.

And we are in urgent need of some believeability in some parts of the world.

[Skybird]

What you call respectability in this case will be understood as a sign of weakness and thus an invitation to push for more. do you really believe that all the muslim world outraged over the cartoons did not know it was behaving ridiculous and hysteric? Many, especially the power elites, knew that, but being noisy is their weapon of choice to make the West fall back one more step.

And then another step.

And one more step.

And one more small step.

Don't worry, it's always just one small step, so what should happen from that.

But a twothousand small steps make a mile.

Like Christians priests not understanding that if they offer their churches for muslim communities and inviting them to celebrate Muhammads birthday in there together with Christmas - Islam does not understand this as a sign of tolerance, but as a heavenly sign of the imminent readiness of the West to surrender and to submit.

For the record, there seem to be confusion about what the Turks got for real, and several news sources give contradicting information. So far I have heared and read three different versions. Nevertheless, what I said above - in principle remains to be true, no matter what.

And one thing, Bewolf: for Islam, like for any kind of totalitarian ideology that is drunken of itself, the world is not grey. It is strictly separated into black and white, and the black tries to take over what is white until nothing else than black is left anymore. Islam itself says it very clearly - if only Westerners would listen to it's words instead of telling it that they know better than Islam what Islam is - , and ironcially in much the same words like Bush did: you're either with it, or against it. There is neither muclticulturalism nor neutrality, there is only Islam pushing on, or Islam being too weak for the moment and waiting until it is strong eough again to push on. There is neither true peace, nor defeat. There is only delay of victory. that is what the Islamic concept of evolution is, and it is pretty much unavoidable, and God-wanted. Being Islamic is the fate and future and role of mankind. Compared to that the Nazi claims for rulership by an Arien Herrenrasse in were relatively moderate, and it's role in history much more earthly and man-made in nature. - Or why did you think I see red so often when it comes to Islam?

[Bewolf]

do you really believe that all the muslim world outraged over the cartoons did not know it was behaving ridiculous and hysteric?

Even though I agreed to your postings before and I never even remotely touched this topic, which makes me wonder why you ask me this question, I will state "no". I do not believe that.

But I believe that every country is more diverse then just one big block we put all our prejudices upon.
That those in power are not interested in a change of policy is a given. I do not expect any effects taking place anytime soon, Germany required 101 years from the first democratic attempts in the revolution of 1848 to the first working and lasting one in 1949, and it required several unification wars and two world wars to achieve this.
And Turkey has much more potential for a democratic islamic society based on human rights then I think she is given credit for.

But this is not so much about results "now", but investing into the future.

[Agiel7]

I was under the impression that Ataturk saw to it that religion never got in the way of that sort of thing.

Wonderful country to by the way.

[Skybird]

Islam and democracy are as mutually exclusive as fashism and multiculturalism. That simply does not make sense, and bares any meaning. In an islamic democracy, Islam always goes first, and those necessary characteristics needed to call a demco9arcy a demcioracy, necessartily must be cut off since they violate basic elem,ents of self-definition of islam. I have been several months in Turkey, and all in all I do not like it. Iran for example I liked much more (which does not mean that i "liked" it, but I prefer it to Turkey any time). In turkey, there is a tremendous difference between the wetsernised metropöpoles and tourist centres, and the rural areas that fporm most of the country, the mentality of people in these rural areas, holding around 80% of the population, is looking forward to material improvements, but it also is - and always has been! - extremely conservative and hostile toWetsern modernisation and western values, and is very patriarchalic and very truly islamic indeed. It is not my random chance that islam held it'S wintersleep during the Kemalistic episode in these places, not in the major cities. By tendency, you have slightly more pro-.western attitude in the cities, in the business world, and if the vast majority ofTurks would be like that, then I could eventually arrange myself with it. but they are not the majority, but a small minority indeed. the majority is backwardly, archaic, and extremely conswervative. This is also the reason why so many German turks find it difficult to return to Turkey even if they would want that - becasue most of them, by their family roots, do not come from the business class, the burgeoise, and the major cities, but the rural places and villages. While in gemrany they are already too muchresisting to integration and too islamic and turkish-nationalistic, in these places in turkey they are already almost traitors to the Turkish and islamic cause, corrupted by Wetsern living style.

Stop hoping for this western modernisation of Islam. It is our own arrogance to think we would change and lecture Islam about itself and chnage the content of the Quran which is the adamant basis of anything worth to be called Islam. euro-Islam - is nothing but a European self-deception, wasting time until it is too late (if it isn't already). It maikes as much sense to wait for that as it made sense to wait for the Thiord Reich turning into a democracy all by itself. It did not bhappen back then, and it will not happen today. and in Afghnaistan western soldiers fight for a corrupt government establishing slavery and isolamic sharia again, goving money to it, and paving the way for blossoming drug industry run by criminal clans. That much we - non-Islamic infidels and outsiders - understand about how to modernise Islam and enforce a rewritten Quran upon them, spiced up by our fantastic values unwilling to self-defend. If it wouldn't be so serious, I could laugh tears and tears about our folly and overstimation of ourselves. they want our money, and our wealth, and our power, and our fall, all for free without forming the cultural basis themselves to develope all that by thmeselves.

Where the hell is it written that they also want our values and understandngs of what freedom and democracy is...??? Our understanding of democracy and freedom and rights is a heretic violation of Quranic teaching. It is not up to man to rewrite the will of Allah, even less if man is not a worthy human, but just an infidel who eiether is to become muslim, or is to die. Travelling in several of "their" countries I must say it was a strict exception from the rule hearing somebody expressing such desires, to copy pour models in their countries. sometimes they were curoius to see them in our homes - but mostly only in the meaning of having a memory of a touristic attraction before Islam came and destroyed it/turned it over.


Grrr, I was about Turkey only, but as always with Islam I too easily get triggered. I leave it to this, therefore.

[Skybird]

I was under the impression that Ataturk saw to it that religion never got in the way of that sort of thing.

Wonderful country to by the way.
Ataturk is under deconstruction sicne several years, thanks to erdoghan and the fundamentalist AKP party, which is nothing else but arch-islamic. If Ataturk would still rule the country and his intentions as expressed in the comstitution would still be honoured, the AKP would sit in prison. And actually, Erdoghan and many AKP officials did. It is last but not least due to Western pressure on the Turkish military to give up it's constitutional role to protect the state against Islam, callingthat "democracy", that has led Turkey to this massive re-Islamisation of the state structures again. But when "democracy" gets abused to install a totalitarian religious doctrine, of what use is this democracy then? It turns into a threat to itself and to others, that'S all. even democracy must know limits, beacause beyond these it starts to destroy itself - and that can hardly be the goal of democracy, or freedom, or tolerance.

[JALU3]

Skybird I agree that religion should be a non-issue when making military decisions, and that no religion should have a special say on any specific action. Granted ones religion will have a significant influence on one's moral and ethical values, but a religion itself as an institution, should not have a direct say.

As for Pakistan, and the new Great Game, the biggest problemn that NATO forces have in Afghanistan is moving supplies to forces there. With a non-compliant Russia attempting to mitigate increased US & Western European influence in Central Asia, and a non-helpful Iran, the only other supply route available to US and NATO forces is through Pakistan. Therefore, NATO and the US must have positive relations with said country in order to garuntee its supply routes. In the previous Great Game, there was a British controlled India/Pakistan to garuntee said access into Central Asia. This is no such garuntee now, thus leading to the relationship the US has with Pakistan today. Sure there is the route through contested Kashmir, or even a much longer route via the PRC, however the most direct is from the Arabian Sea.

What I find interesting though through all this, is the leaning towards a more fundamentalist government in previously secular muslim dominate nations. This can be said about both Turkey and Pakistan, where as in the past the secular nature of the government was garunteed by a strong secular military, something that is not supported by the West, that is the Military having a strong influence on a nation's politics. I think a lot can be discussed regarding the strength of religious parties in muslim majority nations, and how increase of those parties representation in those countries governments have a direct impact on their relations with Western Secular nations.

[Tribesman]

Skybird I agree that religion should be a non-issue when making military decisions
So the military aspect of this dispute was that Denmark is hosting an alledged propaganda outfit from a proscribed terrorist organisation that is engaged in attacking Denmarks Ally .

[JALU3]

Was this Kurdish radio station connected to said terrorist organization? Or was it just because they catered to a specific ethnic nation which they have a problem with?

[Skybird]

The radio station was not the main reason for the Turkish stand against Rasmussen, it was his lacking compliance when demanded to forbid those newspapers printing the muhammad cartoons.

[Respenus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7964494.stm

Following the imams' intervention, the lives of the 12 cartoonists changed irrevocably and they paid the same price as author Salman Rushdie.



Only Mr Westergaard has come out of hiding. The 11 others have followed Danish secret service advice and either have round-the-clock protection or maintain low profiles. One of them is suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome.


I'll have to get behind Skybird on this one. I feel sick after reading this article. For Lord's sake (insert your deity here), what has he/they done to deserve a ransom on their lives? This is just pathetic. Why don't they just pass a law forbidding any satire? If satire, even an insulting one, was a cause to kill someone, The Times would had run out of cartons since a long time ago (go check their cartoon page, it's hilarious yet speaks the truth). Add to this the fact that the PM will have to apologise, it is like putting salt on the wounds of those who cannot sleep at night.

Now, I am not calling for another crusade yet we, Europe and the Muslims anywhere have to realise that we have to live together and that the irrationality of changing religious arguments into political ones must stop. We had our Thirty Year's war to teach us this. They have not.

[Tribesman]

Was this Kurdish radio station connected to said terrorist organization? Or was it just because they catered to a specific ethnic nation which they have a problem with?
Good question . So how many NATO members have banned these broadcasts because they are linked to a proscribed terrorist group ?