Iron Coffins

[GoldenRivet]

Im about 75% of the way through the book "Iron Coffins" which i have been meaning to read for a couple of years now.

with every page i turn, the difficulty inherent to GWX makes more and more sense.

quite a disgusting tactical situation these u-boat men faced... i knew it was bad, but the book paints a bleak picture of a surreal world that changed from delightful bliss to hellish despair in the matter of a month's time.

I highly recommend the book... especially for those who complain that GWX is too hard... half way through Werner's personal accounts i came to the realization that there are so many aspects of the war that not even the great GWX could simulate and because of this... if anything, GWX is far too easy.

what a wasteful nightmare the u-boat force had to endure after March of 1943 when the tables of war turned so dramatically against them.

[Jimbuna]

Yep.....75% loss rate for personnel certainly backs up your findings :o

[GoldenRivet]

Jim was iron coffins a large source of research into the development of GWX?

i read each passing page of the book with mounting frustration as if i had been there.

the author speaks of constantly diving to evade aircraft, barely able to recharge batteries to 60-70% charge before being forced down again.

all they wanted to do was go out and sink ships carrying war materials into Britain... all they actually got after early 43 was a constant harassment from sea and sky.

anyone who has played well into 1943-44 in GWX knows this pattern well. all we want to do is get into some action against ships... all we get is constant bombardment from above.

on another note:

as an Englander or American or Canadian we grow up knowing that the Nazis were the "bad guys" and we read books and watch movies in which scores of "jew killing, hateful krauts" are killed much to the glory of "our side"

but the more and more i read of books like "Steel Boat, Iron Hearts" and "Iron Coffins" the more it hits home that most of these soldiers and sailors of Germany were just normal men with families and girlfriends and children and wives...

... except for the uniforms and the language spoken... these stories could have easily come from men on either side of the front lines.

bottom line i guess... war is ugly... its uglier when you listen to both sides of the story.

[FIREWALL]

I'm on my 4th or 5th read. Everytime I find more and more things.

I agree with GR. And it's a hard book to put down.

[nikbear]

I think thats what saddens me when I look at the U-boat picture's thread,Don't get me wrong,I'm glad we allies won,without that I doubt I'd be here today,But when you look at all those smiling faces in the "Happy times"so proud and enthusiastic,and yet in a matter of years the great majority would be dead,with no known grave......Such a tragic waste of human life and what hell they're last moments must have been:nope::nope::nope:

[Otto Heinzmeir]

snip
.....I highly recommend the book... especially for those who complain that GWX is too hard... half way through Werner's personal accounts i came to the realization that there are so many aspects of the war that not even the great GWX could simulate and because of this... if anything, GWX is far too easy.



I agree GWX is too easy. If it was much harder I don't think as many would play it. Its hard on a person's ego to dodge DC's for 10 hours, only sink one ship and always get killed after 2 or three patrols.

GWX could easily be tweaked to be much harder by increasing the probability of air attacks and making the Escorts sensors even more sensitive.

Myself I like to have some sense of control in a game, because real life sucks sometimes.:O: So I'm content to get a glimpse of what a RL Kuelan went through but I like having a bit better odds than they did. :D

btw I have to read that book. Great write up you did. I have a hard time reading an entire book. In the past 5 years Iv'e finished maybe two. (Short attention span) I tend to get blue when I read graphic stuff like actual accounts of the American Civil War and the description of battlefields afterwords. Gruesome. Its sad that people are capable of War. Kinda ironic that it makes a great game.

[Jimbuna]

Jim was iron coffins a large source of research into the development of GWX?



Yes and no is the answer.

Many of the GWX team had obviously read the book (along with many others and alternative means of research such as internet, film archives etc).

I like to think Iron Coffins (and many other books plus the aforementioned research) were a great source for getting the 'feel' for what it must have been like in RL.

GWX is a mix of realism, historical accuracy and game playing immersion.

One size will never fit all but as you now are well aware.....we strive to do our best http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[FIREWALL]

Yes and no is the answer.

Many of the GWX team had obviously read the book (along with many others and alternative means of research such as internet, film archives etc).

I like to think Iron Coffins (and many other books plus the aforementioned research) were a great source for getting the 'feel' for what it must have been like in RL.

GWX is a mix of realism, historical accuracy and game playing immersion.

One size will never fit all but as you now are well aware.....we strive to do our best http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

And all of you have done just that. :salute:

[Otto Heinzmeir]

GWX is a mix of realism, historical accuracy and game playing immersion.

One size will never fit all but as you now are well aware.....we strive to do our best http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

So true. I think the GWX team struck a good balance. Its a great mod!:salute:

[Sir Big Jugs]

Iron Coffins is indeed a gripping account of what it really was like away from the Nazi propaganda reels about huge U-Boat successes; the late-war descriptions in particular were to me a fascinating read.

I can't imagine what it must have been like, leaving for sea, knowing full well the sheer hopelessness of the task ahead and seeing so many vessels not returning.

Such a waste it seems.






I don't wish to hijack the topic, but if anyone of you can recommend any other good books on the U-boat war in WWII I'd appreciate it, I've only read Iron Coffins and would be interested in reading more about the U-boat war, as told by those that experienced it.

[GoldenRivet]

I would venture to say just as a matter of opinion - that from a sailor's point of view, and not the point of view of a commander - "Steel boat, Iron Hearts" is a wonderful personal account.

it is a fantastic read.

[Oneshot/Onekill]

War is maddness. Started more often than not by a mad person or person's. It's a controlled chaos, in which the end objective is the extermination of human life. The taking of one thing or many things that don't belong to you and using them to you'r own ends. Wars are what happens when we hate out of ignorance, fear what we do not understand, and lust for what we do not possess.

I have been. I have seen. I have committed.

I have to look at myself in the mirror everyday for the rest of my life. This is the last time I will speak of this. Now moving on. I am glad GWX didnt make it too realistic, it is nice to know it is still a game.

I need a drink.:()1:

[YukonJack_AK]

War is maddness. Started more often than not by a mad person or person's. It's a controlled chaos, in which the end objective is the extermination of human life. The taking of one thing or many things that don't belong to you and using them to you'r own ends. Wars are what happens when we hate out of ignorance, fear what we do not understand, and lust for what we do not possess.

I have been. I have seen. I have committed.

I have to look at myself in the mirror everyday for the rest of my life...
...I need a drink.:()1:

As a fellow x-serviceman who saw 4 combat tours... I whole-heartedly agree with OS/OK's sentiments! :yep: You sir, Have a beer on me next time you're in AK! :up:

On the other hand though, if it weren't for games like SH3/4, Call of Duty, etc, I would never have the opportunity to experience and appreciate the greatest struggles of those warriors who came before me(though a slightly altered and not real experiance) no matter the side on which they fought.

Back on topic though - there are some GREAT non-fiction books available about the UBoat war if anyone is looking for more reading:

U-Boat War Patrol: The Hidden Photographic Diary of U-564 (One of my favorites!)
Wolf-Pack: The Story of the U-Boat in WWII
U-Boat Crews - 1914-1945
U-Boote: The History of the Kriegsmarine U-Boats 1935-45

BTW - If anybody is interested I do have 16 different refernce & non-fiction books pertaining to the U-Boats/Battle of the Atlantic in PDF format... I'd be more than happy to share them with my fellow Kaleuns! :up:

[Shado]

I would enjoy reading what you have to share. How big are the pdf files? Black May was a good book about the tail end of the U-Boat time in the Atlantic. I think it was very good.

[Elektranaut]

I read Iron Coffins last year when on holiday.It is simply unput downable and easily one of the best books I have ever read.What happened to the author after the fighting stopped is astonishing.

[GoldenRivet]

What happened to the author after the fighting stopped is astonishing.

agreed wild events after the war. :o

[Paul_IronCoffin]

I agree - Iron Coffin - moves firstly from the honour of serving, to the individual horror or war. A very good book indeed.

[Pepe le Moko]

I am going to play the devil's advocate here, but I don't think Iron Coffins is all that great. Don't get me wrong it is not a bad book at all, far from it, there are some really interesting parts but it is maybe a tad overrated. Also I would take some of the things the author says with a grain of salt.

[Hitman]

History and life are not always the same as the romantic idea we sometimes have of them; nevertheless knowing the truth doesn't hurt and doesn't also mean you can't keep a romantic idea where appropiate. it's just that things are not always in all of their parts what you thought of them.

For those of you who are prepared to see a very different version of U-Boat crews, (And that coming from an official source) that will tear down a good amount of romanticism, follow the link I posted below:

BUT WARNING: Those who want to keep the "Das Boot" image of the real crews, DON'T READ IT

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570INT.htm

[Sir Big Jugs]

I would venture to say just as a matter of opinion - that from a sailor's point of view, and not the point of view of a commander - "Steel boat, Iron Hearts" is a wonderful personal account.

it is a fantastic read.


Back on topic though - there are some GREAT non-fiction books available about the UBoat war if anyone is looking for more reading:

U-Boat War Patrol: The Hidden Photographic Diary of U-564 (One of my favorites!)
Wolf-Pack: The Story of the U-Boat in WWII
U-Boat Crews - 1914-1945
U-Boote: The History of the Kriegsmarine U-Boats 1935-45



Thanks a bunch for the suggestions! Those I couldn't find at the library have been added to the Amazon cart.:)





BTW - If anybody is interested I do have 16 different refernce & non-fiction books pertaining to the U-Boats/Battle of the Atlantic in PDF format... I'd be more than happy to share them with my fellow Kaleuns! :up:

I would enjoy reading what you have to share. How big are the pdf files? Black May was a good book about the tail end of the U-Boat time in the Atlantic. I think it was very good.

I'll second what Shado said, would be very interested in reading them!:salute:


Best Regards,
-SBJ

[Sir Big Jugs]

History and life are not always the same as the romantic idea we sometimes have of them; nevertheless knowing the truth doesn't hurt and doesn't also mean you can't keep a romantic idea where appropiate. it's just that things are not always in all of their parts what you thought of them.

For those of you who are prepared to see a very different version of U-Boat crews, (And that coming from an official source) that will tear down a good amount of romanticism, follow the link I posted below:

BUT WARNING: Those who want to keep the "Das Boot" image of the real crews, DON'T READ IT

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570INT.htm

Thanks for the link!
Have only read the first few pages, and find it a very interesting read indeed. I don't care all that much for the fairy tales as for the historical facts.:)

Regards,
-SBJ

[Kapt Z]

For those of you who are prepared to see a very different version of U-Boat crews, (And that coming from an official source) that will tear down a good amount of romanticism, follow the link I posted below:

BUT WARNING: Those who want to keep the "Das Boot" image of the real crews, DON'T READ IT



Strange. Of all the words I would use to describe 'Das Boot' and it's depiction of a u-boat crew, romantic is not one of them.:hmmm:

I read the report you linked. Interesting and quite amusing at times(probably not intended by the author).

"Personally he was a vulgar little Saxon with an appalling accent, but an enviable flow of invective." Author's view of U-570's Engineering Officer.

That's a objective assesment!:haha:

"Among personal property captured from U 570" were a number of parodies, skits and poems, all of an unrelievedly coarse and obscene nature, there being scarcely a single redeeming witty phrase in the whole. A strong undercurrent of unashamed blasphemy was apparent, and may well be a result of modern Hitler Youth training."

Yeah, you'd never expect to find that kind of stuff on a small metal tube that was home, for weeks on end, to 40 some men in their early twenties. :D :03:

Reading this report made me think even more that "Das Boot" got it pretty much right on the day to day lives of U-boat men.

[GoldenRivet]

"Among personal property captured from U 570" were a number of parodies, skits and poems, all of an unrelievedly coarse and obscene nature, there being scarcely a single redeeming witty phrase in the whole. A strong undercurrent of unashamed blasphemy was apparent, and may well be a result of modern Hitler Youth training."

sounds like my kind of gang :yeah:

"there once was a sailor named dave..." sorts of people are fun beyond any imagination

[Kapt Z]

sounds like my kind of gang :yeah:




Exactly! I laughed because the first thing that came to mind was my college buds!!!:rotfl:

[Pepe le Moko]

Great link Hitman.

It is funny because I was just reading about U-570 yesterday.
I found it interesting how Otto Kretschmer in the POW camp where the officers of U-570 are sent after their capture, is the one holding a makeshift trial, a council of honour and finds them guilty of cowardice.

from Clay Blair book :

"The Council assumed that when the Germans had defeated and occupied England and recovered German POWs, a German military court would try Rahmlow and Berndt, find them guilty and execute them."

But I have to agree with Kapt Z here, Das Boot is hardly romantic, I mean they puke in empty cans fastened around their necks with wire during the storm ohh and let's not forget the crabs!:dead:

And that calls for another quote, still about U-570 after she left Trondheim for her patrol :

"When the boat reached open seas, a large proportion of the crew became desperately seasick. Since only one or two sick men could be accommodated on the bridge at a time, and not for long, most men had to vomit in buckets belowdecks. The retching and the revolting odors inside the confined pressure hull touched off an epidemic of seasickness."

I can't recommend this book enough really, it is a little dry but the wealth of information is simply outstanding.

[Oneshot/Onekill]

Great link Hitman.

It is funny because I was just reading about U-570 yesterday.
I found it interesting how Otto Kretschmer in the POW camp where the officers of U-570 are sent after their capture, is the one holding a makeshift trial, a council of honour and finds them guilty of cowardice.

from Clay Blair book :

"The Council assumed that when the Germans had defeated and occupied England and recovered German POWs, a German military court would try Rahmlow and Berndt, find them guilty and execute them."

But I have to agree with Kapt Z here, Das Boot is hardly romantic, I mean they puke in empty cans fastened around their necks with wire during the storm ohh and let's not forget the crabs!:dead:

And that calls for another quote, still about U-570 after she left Trondheim for her patrol :

"When the boat reached open seas, a large proportion of the crew became desperately seasick. Since only one or two sick men could be accommodated on the bridge at a time, and not for long, most men had to vomit in buckets belowdecks. The retching and the revolting odors inside the confined pressure hull touched off an epidemic of seasickness."

I can't recommend this book enough really, it is a little dry but the wealth of information is simply outstanding.

If I had been in command of U-570 I would have shot the first yellow coward that ran out onto the deck with the white flag. That would have put an end to the mass confusion going on!:x

[Hitman]

By romantic I meant the idea of brave and capable men fighting in terribly inferior conditions for their country. According to the report about U-570, they were mostly not brave, nor capable :88).

[Oneshot/Onekill]

By romantic I meant the idea of brave and capable men fighting in terribly inferior conditions for their country. According to the report about U-570, they were mostly not brave, nor capable :88).

After reading the above link you posted,. I get the strong impression that they WANTED to get off that boat as soon as they left for their first patrol. It seems that they were ready to do anything to achieve that.:nope:

After reading this I began thinking about the movie Patton, the part where Geoege C. Scott slaps the crap out of that yellow belly coward in the hospital in Italy. I personally think he took it easy on the kid myself.

I just don't have any tolerence for cowardice, or imcompetence. from my experience, both will get you and alot of good men killed!:yep:

[Jimbuna]

I certainly agree with the latter part of your post.

Cowards should have no place on the battlefield....they are not only a danger to themselves, but also to those around them who may find themselves dependant on them.

[nikbear]

While I agree to an extent,the problem with large scale wars is that they rely on large numbers of enlisted men,men who really have no place on a battle field,who are not natural soldiers and who are scared stiff regardless of training,A true warrior is a totally different beast,they have conquered they're fears and are cool,even when all about them is going to hell in a hand cart,very few people are like that,to detach themselves from carnage and still carry on they're duty takes a special person and there are just not enough to go round.They are a different breed,a breed apart:salute:

[Oneshot/Onekill]

While I agree to an extent,the problem with large scale wars is that they rely on large numbers of enlisted men,men who really have no place on a battle field,who are not natural soldiers and who are scared stiff regardless of training,A true warrior is a totally different beast,they have conquered they're fears and are cool,even when all about them is going to hell in a hand cart,very few people are like that,to detach themselves from carnage and still carry on they're duty takes a special person and there are just not enough to go round.They are a different breed,a breed apart:salute:

I agree. But from my limited understanding, didn't the U-bootwaffe have a very stringent screening process for selecting volunteer's for service?

I mean they didn't draft men like the Wermacht, did they? And if they didn't then those men and officer's should have sent up red flags well before they ever set foot on U-570.:hmmm:

[Oneshot/Onekill]

I certainly agree with the latter part of your post.

Cowards should have no place on the battlefield....they are not only a danger to themselves, but also to those around them who may find themselves dependant on them.

Absolutley jim. Couldn't have said it better myself.:yep:

From your experience in your profession, look at the disaster that could happen if you had to depend on your partner in a critical moment and he froze beacuse of fear, or indecision.

Trust me, we had a few of these type of people in our battalion and when they were identified they were either given more emphasized training if you know what I mean, or they were washed out if they couldn't hack it.

[mookiemookie]

I'm in the middle of "Neither Sharks Nor Wolves" by Timothy Mulligan and it points to the U-570 incident as the consequences of the shortened training schedule of u-boat crews. Losses were beginning to mount and the u-boat arm needed warm bodies. As far as U-570, the book said they were only together for two months before being pushed out on their first patrol.

Mulligan goes on to propose that Prien may have been lost at sea due to the inexperience of his crew. In order to make up for the shortfall of experienced men, veteran crews were being broken up and transferred to new boats. When Prien was sunk, he had none of the officers and only 7 of the original crew of seamen from the Scapa raid.

[Torplexed]

I'm in the middle of "Neither Sharks Nor Wolves" by Timothy Mulligan and it points to the U-570 incident as the consequences of the shortened training schedule of u-boat crews. Losses were beginning to mount and the u-boat arm needed warm bodies. As far as U-570, the book said they were only together for two months before being pushed out on their first patrol.

Mulligan goes on to propose that Prien may have been lost at sea due to the inexperience of his crew. In order to make up for the shortfall of experienced men, veteran crews were being broken up and transferred to new boats. When Prien was sunk, he had none of the officers and only 7 of the original crew of seamen from the Scapa raid.

Sounds like another good read. :cool:

Before the war, it took no less than five years training before the young men would report for their first tour of duty. However, By 1941 the need to expand the U-Boat fleet was so so great that in an effort to rush crewmen into combat, the training time was shortened and standards were lowered, resulting in a less qualified crew. In the end it pretty much diluted the U-Boat crew quality to the point where it took far more boats in 1943 to achieve the same results as one U-Boat had in 1940 especially when up against with superior Allied ASW tactics.

[timwatson]

Yes, having read Iron Coffins, many thoughts have come and gone about the young men who later in '43-'44 had heard enough to know when they missioned, they likely would not return. Shame on those who had the opportunity to increase hull thickness by 9mm in '41 to enable dive depths of 250m +..... and not to forget they knew "snorkel" technology thanks to the Dutch, but did nothing until too late.

I'd like to hear more from you after you've finished the book.

Oberleutant z. s. Rolfe Hass

[Kapt Z]

By romantic I meant the idea of brave and capable men fighting in terribly inferior conditions for their country. According to the report about U-570, they were mostly not brave, nor capable :88).

But I think it is hard to make a generalization about u-boat crews from the interrogation of one boat's crew or a film about one fictitious crew.

Certainly not all boats had incompetent crews(heck look at the losses they inflicted!) just as not every kaleun was a 'ace'.

I've only read one opinion of 'Das Boot' by a actual u-boat man and his feelings were as follows-

1)The depth charge scenes were over dramatised. The submarine would never roll and buck about during the explosions as depicted in the movie. Pipes would burst, lights would shatter, but the whole boat wouldn't move like that.

2)There was no 'screaming' by the crew during depth charge attacks. They were all terrified, but knew better than to say a word.

3)The 'Chief' in the movie was a true superman of his profession. The author(a u-boat engineering officer himself) confessed to still not understading how they got back to the surface after being 'sunk' at Gibraltar. The author commented that they would have lost a lot fewer u-boats in the war if they had more men with the skills of the 'Chief'.

4)The movie was a pretty accurate depiction of day to day life on a u-boat.

Is he lying? Memory failing him? Embelishing the heroism of his companions? Who's to say?:hmmm:

Another place, another time. by Werner Hirschmann

[nikbear]

I agree. But from my limited understanding, didn't the U-bootwaffe have a very stringent screening process for selecting volunteer's for service?

I mean they didn't draft men like the Wermacht, did they? And if they didn't then those men and officer's should have sent up red flags well before they ever set foot on U-570.:hmmm:

Sadly as has been mentioned by others,the need to get crews together for the ever expanding U-bootwaffe led to standards dropping and battle hardened crews being broken up and diluted through the service in a vain attempt to spread experience of those crews,far to thinly:nope:Even at the start of the war the myth that it was an all volunteer service was false,people were put into the service weather they liked U-boats or not and just had to make the best of it,most thought little of it since they had the crazy notion that it was going to be a great BB war with the U-boats being left to mop up what was left:o(You would have thought they would have learnt from WW1:nope:) All in all it points to the usual Nazi setup,to little to late,shortsightedness, a headlong rush to expand and general mismanagement......Thanfully for us,and sadly for the crews,the Nazi higher echelons couldn't organize a pis$up in a brewery:har:Apart from Goering of course,thats the only one thing he could do quite well:haha:

[von hally]

goldenrivet

just wait till you get to the end of the book....it doesnt end with the boat.......remarkable man!!!!!!!

enjoy mate

[GoldenRivet]

SPOILER ALERTS

I finished the book about 48 hours after my original post.

i just have been to tied up to post much about it.

final thoughts...

World War Two had always been a fascination of mine, mostly because my grandfather was an infantry man who served in every major campaign from Normandy to the post war occupation of Germany... also my Paternal Grandfather was a merchant seaman, too young to enlist until the later part of 44-45.

Their stories of sea and sweat and enemy sightings always intrigued me... it is they who i credit with spurring my interest in the subject.

Silent Hunter III has been a valuable lesson to me.

No "video game" has ever lead me down a path so rich in learning about geography, history and science as SH3 has. In my quest for realism i have read numerous books about the U-boat war written by authors from both sides of the Atlantic.

Iron Coffins - though not professionally or eloquently written by a worldly English scholar - IS a hard look into the true life of the sailors of the U-Boat service.

The book starts with a happy time of glorious and productive hunts on the towering waves of the open Atlantic Ocean and develops into a twisted tale of inexperienced and eager young crewmen who were doomed before they ever boarded their boat.

Because WW2 has intrigued me so much throughout my life, i have watched virtually every war movie i can lay hands on - from Hogan's Heroes to Harts War... from Tora Tora Tora to The Big Red One. But the central theme that bothers me about these movies and some of the books i have read is the picture they painted... that virtually all Germans from 1939-45 were monsterous- murdering NAZIS. - of course this is a point of view that one had to take with a grain of salt. ;)

In reading the accounts written in books like Iron Coffins, and Steel Boat Iron Hearts it has really opened my eyes that these men who served on these U-Boats were really not too different from the grandfathers i idolized as a child.

They may not have been "party members" - but in the end they were men who were doing what they felt they had to do for their country... and i cant fault a man for that. They had girlfriends and wives who loved them, they had families who worried for them, they had friends and brothers serving in various branches on other fronts. it sounds eerily similar to the experiences of my own family during times of war.

Werner really puts it into perspective - and says it they way i have seen it for a long time.

for him the U-boat war was personal - evey day the Allied bomber stream was destroying entire sections of his home town brick by brick.

his mission in his mind was simple... keep bombs and fuel and other supplies from reaching England, for if he could do that - he might save his family or loved ones.

in the end... his efforts were futile - his entire family killed by the bombing raids, his childhood girlfriend and her entire family suffered the same fate as millions of other German citizens had suffered.

By the conclusion of the books final chapters - the German military is swinging wild punches in all directions in a dark room. Confusion has gripped the German leadership.

When the Red Army moved through Eastern Germany into Berlin - German Women suffered the greatest and largest case of mass rape in human history... and nobody could stop it.

I find myself thinking... what if i was powerless to do anything and it was my family and my home which stood firmly in the sights of the enemy? and in the meantime... "duty" traps me into service hundreds or even thousands of miles away.

A question - thankfully i cant answer

German currency was worthless. Entire vast cities lay in ruins, piles of brick and mortar and wood and steel lay strewn about as if Gid had reached down with his fist and smashed the landscape.

from 1939-45 there was untold suffering - unparalleled by probably any other event in history. Concentration camps, displaced citizens, forced labor, conscripted soldiers, refuges, devastated local and global economies, entire towns, cities and nations ceased to exist sometimes after a single attack - entire continents aflame with war... entire family names - erased from the ledger of history... all because of one man's bitter and evil ambitions.

Nothing remained of life for Werner in Germany except imprisonment and the long harsh reality of reconstruction. The only thing worse than losing a war - i would think - is fighting so hard, fighting so desperately with so much sacrifice and so much loss of friends and family and so much heart and tears being thrown into the conflict and... still losing the war.

fortunately things like heart and sacrifice and desperation steered the conflict towards victory for the Allies.

From books like iron coffins we can learn of the U-boat tactics, we can learn of the day to day life and procedures, we can even learn of the history of U-boat war fare.

but i think that the most important lesson anyone can take from such a book is that - even though we sometimes have to stand up against evil... ultimately war is an ugly, bitter, wasteful hell on earth.

[Rockin Robbins]

While there were competent crews and capable captains, I think that over-romanticizing of the U-Boat war has doubtless taken place, covering the entire U-Boat arm with the halo of the few competent men. This is a logical consequence of a strategy of building many, many small boats of small individual effect on the war. From Jak Mallmann Showell's U-boat Commander's and Crew 1935-1945:

Horst Bredow of the German U-boat Archive has records of 1,171 U-boats having been commissioned between 1935 and 1945. If one combines this figure with the famous Churchill comment the the only thing that frightened him throughout the war was the U-boat threat, then it is easy to conjure up visions of hundreds of bloodthirsty U-boat commanders prowling the waters around the British Isles and along the eastern seaboard of the United States. However, the figure of 1,171 boats is grossly misleading, and does not reflect the reality of the war at sea. The number of Allied ships which were attacked and at least damaged can be calculated from Axis Submarine Successes by Dr. Jürgen Rohwer. The details for the Atlantic and North Sea are as follows:

25 U-boats attacked, sunk, or at least damaged 20 or more ships
36 U-boats attacked between 11 and 19 ships
70 U-boats attacked between 6 adn 10 ships
190 U-boats attacked between 1 and 5 ships

This adds up to a total of 321 U-boats. Ships sunk in the Black Sea, Mediterranean, Baltic, and Indian Ocean will make the total rather higher, and one could allow a few more for calculation errors. However the probable total still leaves a staggering gap of about 850 U-boats which appear not to have sunk or damaged anything throughout the entire war. In fact almost all of these, representing three-quarters of the whole U-boat Arm, never came within shooting distance of the enemy. School boats, supply boats, experimental craft, and boats commissioned towards the end of the war which were never in a position to sink ships, could be discounted; but there still appears to be a huge discrepancy between the number of U-boats commissioned and the number which actually attacked the enemy. This makes one wonder why Germany put so much effort and so many resources into building submarines, if the majority never achieved anything other than tying down the vast enemy forces which hunted and destroyed them.

It might be worth adding that these figures were not calculated with hindsight: they were available to U-boat Command at the time, and the only difference between then and now is that we now know that U-boat commanders generally overestimated their tonnage sunk by about one third.

Looking at the same figures from a different angle, one might consider that these ships were sunk by men rather than by machines. Out of a total of about 2450 Allied ships sunk in the Atlantic one finds that 30 U-boat commanders were responsible for sinking just under 800 of these. This means that 2% of the U-boat commanders were responsible for sinking almost 30% of the Allied shipping losses in the central area of the submarine war.It appears that there were more boats in the U-570 mode than in the glorious U-Boat ace mode by far. Again, this is not the fault of the hastily and improperly trained crews, but of the underlying strategy of putting too many U-Boats at sea for the number of competent sailors available. It was impossible to adequately train enough men to fill all the people tanks being built. So they stuffed them with incompetent sailors. Good boats don't win wars, good men do.

@KaptZ you gotta love that quote about the reading material on board. Are the British funny or what? That was hilarious. Let's open up the crew quarters of a British or American sub and see what we find. Nothing of redeeming character whatever! :har: :up:

[Jimbuna]

An excellent and informative post GR http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[kaptkirkU4467]

I really didn't care for his book.I think I put it down at the bottom of my bookshelf,right under Das Boot.*great movie but a real load of krap about U Boat men*

Now if you would like a "real" read,try Operation Drumbeat by Michael Gannon.
All true and no fact stretching...unlike Iron Coffins.

Clay Blair has a nice 2 volume set,Hitler's U Boat War...a little dry sometimes, but it is were most get the facts on the Battle of the Atlantic....I reread them about every 6 months.

[RoaldLarsen]

There is nothing really unusual or surprising about the fact that much of the damage was done by a small proportion of Kaleuns. Neither is it unusual for a significant portion of those under arms to never shoot at the enemy. I am not at all sure that it is reasonable to put this down to any particular problem with the organization of the u-bootwaffe.

This pheomenon is constantly present in wars throughout history. But sticking to the twentieth century, some ridiculously large portion of US infantrymen never fired their rifle in battle in both WWII and Vietnam. Most fighter pilots have 0 kills, in most airforces, in both world wars. Most escorts in both wars never sank a sub. Compare this to Capt. F. "Johnnie" Walker.

I don't have any proof, but I suspect this phenomenon is in part a function of the large-scale employment of civilians in mass-mobilised armed forces. But I also suspect it has to do with the behaviour of large numbers, and is a reflection of human nature.

[clayton]

As a child, that book as well as Silent Victory is what got me interested in Subs.

An outstanding read.


http://books.google.com/books?id=FM14c6RzK6YC&printsec=frontcover&dq=iron+coffins&lr=#PPP1,M1

[Hitman]

There is nothing really unusual or surprising about the fact that much of the damage was done by a small proportion of Kaleuns. Neither is it unusual for a significant portion of those under arms to never shoot at the enemy. I am not at all sure that it is reasonable to put this down to any particular problem with the organization of the u-bootwaffe.

This pheomenon is constantly present in wars throughout history. But sticking to the twentieth century, some ridiculously large portion of US infantrymen never fired their rifle in battle in both WWII and Vietnam. Most fighter pilots have 0 kills, in most airforces, in both world wars. Most escorts in both wars never sank a sub. Compare this to Capt. F. "Johnnie" Walker.

I don't have any proof, but I suspect this phenomenon is in part a function of the large-scale employment of civilians in mass-mobilised armed forces. But I also suspect it has to do with the behaviour of large numbers, and is a reflection of human nature.


Well if soldier on side A doesn't get to shoot, then it's logic that soldier on side B doesn't get also to shoot, meaning neither of them was confronted with the other :haha:

But seriously, when we talk about sea warfare, the sea is very large and the fleets are not that much, also travelling by sea is fairly slow (Speeds under 30 knots). So it's logic that many naval combatants didn't ever even make contact with the enemy.

[LukeFF]

In regards to Iron Coffins, apparently it's not all it's cracked up to be:

I have had the honor of corresponding with and talking with many u-boat veterans...some that are famous and others that are not. I was driven to at first to gain autographs from these men from history. I wanted to be able to ask hard questions and get a deeper understanding of the war from their point of view and to connect with those that I had only read about. To get a human side of a big part of the war. I am very grateful for their friendship and assistance. They opened my eyes to things I would never have understood otherwise.

To a man, they are all very glad that their Fatherland, Germany, lost the war. They speak fondly of their days in the service as most veterans do. The less famous u-boat veterans also feel honored to be remembered by someone such as myself who took the time and effort to locate their address and drop them a letter inquiring about their experiences. Those that are famous received literally hundreds of letters a weeks from folks.

I must say that these veterans don't think highly of Herbert Werner or Lothar-Günther Buchheim. Werner wrote his book in the late 1960s and was received with critical success. It became a bestseller world-wide for the frankness and anti-Nazi sentiments. Btw, the 1960s were the beginnings of apologist histories regarding the Nazi state. It is a fascinating memoir to read...and I use the word "memoir" loosely. The esteemed naval historian Dr. Jürgen Rohwer studied the memoir and compared its claims to facts. Many of the instances Werner claims were personal experiences were actually borrowed from other people. Rohwer stated that if the factual errors were highlighted in red the book would "read as a bloodbath."

The success of Werner's Iron Coffins was not lost on Buchheim. Buchheim realized that the world might be ready for a novel of his 'experiences' on a u-boat...provided he add in the required anti-Nazi spin. It is a fine book and I have read it many times, but I am aware of the time and reason for its creation. Money. Nothing more...nothing less. Reinhard Hardegen has spoken bluntly about his dislike of Buchheim. In a nutshell, he states that Buchheim 'has only one god and it is money.' Hardegen also took strong objections to the wild party at the brothel before a patrol, the crew pissing on their captain, and the gun-incident where the captain has to keep his chief maschinist in check. None of these ever happened. Hardegen states that if a captain had to produce a pistol, then the situation was far beyond getting control. The respect towards Der Alte was too great for these things to happen.

Erich Topp said that I should look at Das Boot as factual with the boredom depicted...and then the excitement of action. But forget the rest. Karl-Friedrich Merten had a long standing feud with Buchheim towards his defining opus. The u-bootfarhrer organizations disowned both Werner and Buchheim. (Trust me, Werner is a cocky s.o.b. considering he didn't do anything as a skipper except survive.)

For more detailed study of the German u-boat in popular culture, read Michael Hadley's Count Not the Dead.Posted on another forum I read regularly.

[AVGWarhawk]

Now if you would like a "real" read,try Operation Drumbeat by Michael Gannon.
All true and no fact stretching...unlike Iron Coffins.

Excellent book and enjoyed so much I read it twice! I highly recommend Operation Drumbeat!


(Trust me, Werner is a cocky s.o.b. considering he didn't do anything as a skipper except survive.)


Oh, harsh...........

[nikbear]

(Trust me, Werner is a cocky s.o.b. considering he didn't do anything as a skipper except survive.)

Considering this comes from other's who did the same"Kettle! Meet Mr pot":nope::down::hmmm:Its quite sad when it comes to this,Selective memory when it suits them the lot of them:nope:

[Nisgeis]

Selective memory when it suits them the lot of them:nope:

That statement is true and should be applied to everyone who gives their version of an event uniformly.

[kaptkirkU4467]

One of my books on the U Boats and the Battle of the Atlantic is a very rare find..."The Golden Horseshoe." Otto Kretschmer's autobiography.
Now theres a page turner!
The book was published in 1955 so all the key players were still alive:Otto and his crew plus the the men on the other side like Captain Macintyre and even the P.O.W camp commander.

[Jimbuna]

One of my books on the U Boats and the Battle of the Atlantic is a very rare find..."The Golden Horseshoe." Otto Kretschmer's autobiography.
Now theres a page turner!
The book was published in 1955 so all the key players were still alive:Otto and his crew plus the the men on the other side like Captain Macintyre and even the P.O.W camp commander.

I totally agree......one of my favourites http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[AVGWarhawk]

Might want to broaden your horizons also kaptkirk. Jim would appreciate this, I started 'One of Our Submarines.' Edward Young. Concerns the British submarine service during WW2. I just got it and I'm half way through the book. Great reading on the British submarine service. :up:

[GoldenRivet]

No shortage of opinions on Iron Coffins.

I do believe it to be a compulsory read and at least a part of any U-Boat book collection. :yep:

It doesnt have to be the collection's center piece... but i would feel any collection would be incomplete without it.

On a personal note... I find the "all Werner did was survive" comment to be annoying, disrespectful and in poor taste.

surviving the U-boat war is no small accomplishment in itself.

i'll remind you that Werner himself peered through a number of UZO oculars while orchestrating surfaced night attacks while serving as executive officer aboard other boats.

not that it matters.

to me - even if a soldier only shuffled papers during the war - he is still an honored veteran.

[Kapt Z]

[quote=GoldenRivet;1079975]

On a personal note... I find the "all Werner did was survive" comment to be annoying, disrespectful and in poor taste.

surviving the U-boat war is no small accomplishment in itself.[quote]

Well said.:up:

[Rockin Robbins]

(Trust me, Werner is a cocky s.o.b. considering he didn't do anything as a skipper except survive.)

Considering this comes from other's who did the same"Kettle! Meet Mr pot":nope::down::hmmm:Its quite sad when it comes to this,Selective memory when it suits them the lot of them:nope:

Actually that statement stacks up nicely against the British intelligence report that said that the written materials found in the crew's quarters of the U-570 had "no redeeming value whatever." Overarching critical generalizations, including "Kettle! Meet Mr pot" are popping up everywhere! Even when surrounded by facts, these are good for little more than entertainment and sure aren't worth getting upset about. Everyone, including myself right here and now, enjoys employing these sometimes.

The previous was an overarching critical generalization and may offend the reader. It certainly offends the author. Tough toenails.:har: You have to admire an overarching critical generalization claiming that everyone, including the author, makes overarching critical generalizations.

[kaptkirkU4467]

Might want to broaden your horizons also kaptkirk. Jim would appreciate this, I started 'One of Our Submarines.' Edward Young. Concerns the British submarine service during WW2. I just got it and I'm half way through the book. Great reading on the British submarine service. :up:

I have 3 bookcases full of military history ...The wife would kill me if I get on e-bay again.:shucks:
Any thing from Roman times to the tank battles in Iraq. :o
*Picked this up last year,"60 Jahre,Deutsche UBoote. 1906 to 1966"...its in German and is a great read...very slow as my German is rusty.*

But anyway..from the other side of the coin:
Hunter/Killer by William T.Youngblood
a true story here:The Terrible Hours.

[AVGWarhawk]

I have 3 bookcases full of military history ...The wife would kill me if I get on e-bay again.:shucks:
Any thing from Roman times to the tank battles in Iraq. :o
*Picked this up last year,"60 Jahre,Deutsche UBoote. 1906 to 1966"...its in German and is a great read...very slow as my German is rusty.*

But anyway..from the other side of the coin:
Hunter/Killer by William T.Youngblood
a true story here:The Terrible Hours.

Well, if she will kill you for going ebay for books, use Amazon instead:D. So many books and so little time. :oops:

[kaptkirkU4467]

She started it...and found the really rare stuff..I just cant stop lookin for stuff.:06:

[Jimbuna]

Might want to broaden your horizons also kaptkirk. Jim would appreciate this, I started 'One of Our Submarines.' Edward Young. Concerns the British submarine service during WW2. I just got it and I'm half way through the book. Great reading on the British submarine service. :up:

Never read it...but at these prices, I soon will. :hmmm:

Look at the price spread :o

http://www.amazon.co.uk/One-Submarines-Sword-Military-Classics/dp/1844151069

[LukeFF]

i'll remind you that Werner himself peered through a number of UZO oculars while orchestrating surfaced night attacks while serving as executive officer aboard other boats.

Maybe in training, but not in combat.

[FIREWALL]

Maybe in training, but not in combat.


If you even read the book you'de know different.:nope:

[GoldenRivet]

Yes... in combat.

attacking targets and formulating bearing and range information though the UZO/TBT during surfaced attacks was generally the job of the "exec" - a capacity in which Werner served for several very successful patrols.

do read the book, and visit u-boat.net and learn of the history of the u-boat war... it will be very enlightening.

[Sensekhmet]

War is complicated business.
I always wondered, why people think that war criminals, murderers, rapists and the lot were any different from 'normal' people with families, talents, hobbies and interests. My hobby is motorsports, I don't even think about comparing it to war, but it does put 'normal' people under stress. And guess what? People change. In everyday life I'm a lazy slacker bastard, very careful not to get myself hurt or even dirty. When I'm racing, I'm a perfectionist, unforgiving (to myself and others), I get cold, emotionless, I'm in a state that can perhaps be best described as 'cold controlled aggressive sociopath', watching the world through squinted eyes and with a stiff jaw. I do things that in normal situation would make me scream like a little girl, not to mention things that would put me in harm's way an things I'd be UNABLE to do in the first place. Belieave me, I can slide the car while racing, but in normal everyday driving I get stiff, my hair stands on end and usually I screw up if I loose grip (of course, experience makes such situations a lot easier to handle and I know how to prevent them from happening in the first place). I'll also happily put myself under both physical and mental strain. Only when I return home I'm shocked to feel like I'm dead: my muscles hurt, I have strains and bruises (where did those come from?) and mentally I feel like a zombie, like someone scooped out my brain and left nothing but an empty space. But it's all good the next day, I'm back to my normal self. I sit down in front of my PC and browse through photos from the last day's event, knowing it was me who did those things but already finding it hard to believe. "Yeah, I guess it's me in that photo... but I couldn't possibly do those things, could I? Look at me, I'm just a normal guy."
What I'm trying to say is this: I think war puts normal people in unnormal situations, and they have to cope. But to cope, our organisms need to shift back to primal survival mode and that means people behave differently then they do normally. I also think it's impossible to say, how a proffessor, milkman, miner or a convict will act once the battle stress hits. Some of this stress can be replicated in training but ultimately I think it's a different reaction for each individual. Who will be a coward, a hero, a mate you can relay your life on and who will turn out to be a cocky idiot that will get himself and his squad killed? I can't say 'I'd done this and that differently under those conditions' because I simply do not know myself well enough.

I hope my post makes any sense to you guys.

[AVGWarhawk]

Never read it...but at these prices, I soon will. :hmmm:

Look at the price spread :o

http://www.amazon.co.uk/One-Submarines-Sword-Military-Classics/dp/1844151069


Yep, Amazon is were I got mine for a great price. Good book Jim and I recommend it. I though perhaps you would have read this:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Yep, Amazon is were I got mine for a great price. Good book Jim and I recommend it. I though perhaps you would have read this:hmmm:

Ordered http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/read2.gif

[LukeFF]

If you even read the book you'de know different.:nope:

Take it up with Dr. Rohwer if you don't like what I've written. Or did you not read my quoted comment up above about how, if all the errors in IC were underlined in red ink, the book would look like a bloodbath?

[FIREWALL]

Could that Dr. Rohwer be blowing his own horn ? :hmmm:


Heck, Das Boot was full of holes and it didn't stop it from being a good read and a good movie.

[LukeFF]

Could that Dr. Rohwer be blowing his own horn ? :hmmm:

Not hardly. He is a respected historian and took the time to do the research on the so-called "facts" presented in IC. Have you taken any time to conduct any research on the matter, or are you simply parroting the praise others here have for the book?

[nikbear]

Was wondering what actually is the accusation that Dr Rohwer is making with regards to IC?:hmmm:

[FIREWALL]

Not hardly. He is a respected historian and took the time to do the research on the so-called "facts" presented in IC. Have you taken any time to conduct any research on the matter, or are you simply parroting the praise others here have for the book?


Sounds more like your defending your boyfriend the good DR's honor. :haha:

[Pepe le Moko]

Hey guys don't get your panties in a twist because someone says that maybe some of the stuff in the book is made up. Honestly I have no idea, but it is not impossible at all.

The tonnage for instance is definitely not accurate. U-Boats skippers had a tendency to do these overclaims from 30% to 100% sometimes and Werner is no exception.

Same thing when he says, Germany and U-Boats were that close to strangling Great Britain and winning the war. It appears it wasn't so. In part because of all these overclaims but also because Donitz underestimated the allied ships construction tremendously. In Clay Blair book, it actually says that 98% of all merchant ships who crossed the Atlantic during the war made it safely. And during the first two years of the war british merchant tonnage actually increased.

But that's a part that is relatively easy to prove and verify. The personal stuff and what he really did, I have no idea but it would be interesting to know.

So yes he did his duty, survived the war and doesn't seem to have been a nazi so that's definitely worthy of respect but the way some of you people take everything from the book at face value and like it is the second coming of the christ is honestly a little disturbing.

[Peto]

Uboat.net. Werner sank 1 ship as 1WO. None as Captain. Research pays.

[Thomen]

Take it up with Dr. Rohwer if you don't like what I've written. Or did you not read my quoted comment up above about how, if all the errors in IC were underlined in red ink, the book would look like a bloodbath?

I use some parts of Rohwers work for my own research. However, there are inconsistencies where his version does not add up, or can't be correlated by other sources. Basically, what that means, I have to double check everything what might be interesting for my research and where he is the main source.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Not hardly. He is a respected historian and took the time to do the research on the so-called "facts" presented in IC. Have you taken any time to conduct any research on the matter, or are you simply parroting the praise others here have for the book?

Take it up with Dr. Rohwer if you don't like what I've written. Or did you not read my quoted comment up above about how, if all the errors in IC were underlined in red ink, the book would look like a bloodbath?

EVERY personal account of submarine warfare is written with the author'(s) spin on any given situation... REGARDLESS of nationality.

NO INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNT of submarine warfare should be viewed as a cross-section of typical life within any given branch.

Iron coffins is a great read whatever you BELIEVE or however you may FEEL about it or its surrounding subject matter.

What IS obvious is that you are unable to make your case with any class.

Take your attitude problem elsewhere.

[Pepe le Moko]

Hmm I don't understand why you people get all defensive and seem to take it personally like that when someone claims that maybe the book is not all it is cracked up to be.

Oh no he's criticizing Iron Coffin!!!1 How dare you! Burn him at the stake!!!

The book is a decent read yes but it is not gospel, is it?

Granted his tone is a bit harsh and all but seriously....:o

[Sensekhmet]

Basically, what that means, I have to double check everything what might be interesting for my research and where he is the main source.

I always thought that double (heck, even triple) checking and cross referencing was the standard research method, regardless of subject or author.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hmm I don't understand why you people get all defensive and seem to take it personally like that when someone claims that maybe the book is not all it is cracked up to be.

Oh no he's criticizing Iron Coffin!!!1 How dare you! Burn him at the stake!!!

The book is a decent read yes but it is not gospel, is it?

Granted his tone is a bit harsh and all but seriously....:o

Read my post again. Clearly, at the moment, you do not understand it.

[HW3]

Any book that is written 25 years after the events took place is bound to not be 100% accurate. Does that mean it should be classed as pure fiction and not worth reading? Does it mean it is 100% gospel truth not to doubted at all? The answer is no on both accounts. It really is a shame that all humans do not have photographic memories, and can remember all the little details that happened to them 25 years ago, exactly as they happened. I, quite frankly, am glad that a few of the men who were there, took the time to set down and write of their experiences. By doing so, they add the human factor to the dry facts that can be found in the archives of the various nations involved. Are their memories 100% accurate? Probably not but, who are we, who weren't there, to judge them for it? Read the books and remember, these are the memories of men far removed from the time the events they write about took place, and cut them a little slack if they do get something wrong.

[JU_88]

@ LukeFF,
Nothing wrong with being objective, but with that in mind - remember that the Author of the book was actually there in the midst of it, where as Dr Rohwer was not....

A historian is only as reliable as his sources whatever they maybe. Sure the author sexed things up for the book - but the same is done to any novel 'based' on real events.

There is nothing to stop historians from putting their own 'spin' or views accross in there work either, they are only human at the end of the day and its not like they are higher beings or force fed truth serum every morning.
Supposedly they are meant to present us hard facts & evidence, (just as politicians are supposed to always present the truth :dead:) So they too can be 'selective' about that they want us to hear.

You yourself are only taking what Rohwer has written at face value, making you no different from an Iron Coffins reader who believes Werner's accounts to be factual.

My point is that a lot of the time, people will simply re-enforce what they CHOOSE to believe and will discredit what they choose not to, that is human nature.

Anyways, I couldn't really give a toss either way, For me Iron Coffins was a very enjoyable read, and thats all that mattered IMHO. :up:

[Hitman]

________________

The red line above is the limit, which this thread has reached. Any further rude remarks from someone towards another and I'll close it and start shooting on sight. I'm sure the same information/opinions can be transmitted in a more friendly way.

Thanks

[sharkbit]

Anyways, I couldn't really give a toss either way, For me Iron Coffins was a very enjoyable read, and thats all that mattered IMHO. :up:

+1

:yeah::yeah::yeah:

[GoldenRivet]

you know the original purpose of post #1 from yours truly was intended just to say "hey... this is a good book... if you are interested in a decent read i recommend it."

i didnt try to sell it as gospel, i didnt lay it on the altar, i just said it was a good book and a fun read.

now you are all more than welcome do disagree with me - i dont really care - thats great... but i'm just making a book recommendation here.

whether or not everything is true, or a little bit fabricated or outright false doesn't change the fact that the book was a good fun read for me and possibly for others.

everyone has an opinion - its how they put that opinion out there.

its much nicer to say "Well, i didnt care for the book because it was not well written and seemed to contain a lot of Werner's personal opinions on the war." (well no kidding right... it is entitled "iron coffins: a personal account of the German U-Boat Battles of WW2")

but if you just come right out with "Werner Sucks!! he wrote a crappy book that completely twists everything that is true about the U-boat war!!! we should all burn this book!!!"

well to come across that way is just disrespectful... especially when you start to talk trash about whether or not a man who was there actually did anything of merit during the war. :nope: GIVE ME A BREAK... i dont care if he was a military postal clerk throughout WW2.... HE WAS MORE THERE THAN ANY OF US. :nope:

would you really sit in front of a veteran while he was telling his story and call him out on what you think is BS and what is not???

[Thomen]

I always thought that double (heck, even triple) checking and cross referencing was the standard research method, regardless of subject or author.

Oh it is, but unfortunately it is not always that easy or even doable. And it gets very frustrating if you know your main source's conclusions are at least questionable, but everyone points you back at it as the being the 'sole authority' on the subject anyways, as it is the case with Rohwer. It gets even worse if the actual amount of information is rather limited.

[AVGWarhawk]

Ordered http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/read2.gif

I'm about half way through the book. The HMS Storm is sent to patrol the Indian Ocean. First book I have read concerning this part of the world. As much as I read about the fleets and the uboats, the British subs do not seem to get a fair shake. Seriously, I did not know British subs were dispatched for a billet in the Indian Oceans.

[Sensekhmet]

Oh it is, but unfortunately it is not always that easy or even doable. And it gets very frustrating if you know your main source's conclusions are at least questionable, but everyone points you back at it as the being the 'sole authority' on the subject anyways, as it is the case with Rohwer. It gets even worse if the actual amount of information is rather limited.

I fully understand. I'm writing a master's degree (or rather: I'm trying to write) on the subject of motorsport sociolects and damn: it's pretty much impossible to find anything on the subject. And with no 'serious, scientific' sources, how am I going to prove to the reviewers I didn't made it all up? :damn:

[Jimbuna]

I'm about half way through the book. The HMS Storm is sent to patrol the Indian Ocean. First book I have read concerning this part of the world. As much as I read about the fleets and the uboats, the British subs do not seem to get a fair shake. Seriously, I did not know British subs were dispatched for a billet in the Indian Oceans.

Would you believe that about five actually went to the far east :doh:
The V class were a modification of the U design, but being of partly welded construction they were able to dive deeper. Construction was much reduced when the war in the Mediterranean eased off, and stopped altogether when VE-Day arrived. Four of the class operated in the Mediterranean, three of which (Virtue, Vivid and Vigorous) went on to operate in the Far East in 1944/45, though they must have been the most uncomfortable of all naval vessels in that area, due to the extreme humidity. They were joined in the East by Vox and Voracious. Of interest, all the V class were built by Vickers Armstrong, either at Barrow or on the Tyne.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~gchalcraft/sm/UClass.html

[AVGWarhawk]

It is interesting because one of the ballast tanks was modified for fuel to make the transit. Very enjoyable reading. He does touch on the heat a bit and what to wear(or not to wear). Ration fresh water. You will find his account of getting sunk by one of his own surface skimmers during a night transit. He was never the same when patrolling at night after that incident. I can not say as I blame him. I would say anymore and ruin it for you.

Great link! Thx.

I checked on the S classes in the link. In the book I believe it was an engineman who made a short poem citing all the S classes the went down. You will read it. Neat poem, sad subject.

[kiwi_2005]

History and life are not always the same as the romantic idea we sometimes have of them; nevertheless knowing the truth doesn't hurt and doesn't also mean you can't keep a romantic idea where appropiate. it's just that things are not always in all of their parts what you thought of them.

For those of you who are prepared to see a very different version of U-Boat crews, (And that coming from an official source) that will tear down a good amount of romanticism, follow the link I posted below:

BUT WARNING: Those who want to keep the "Das Boot" image of the real crews, DON'T READ IT

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570INT.htm

U 570 is mentioned in the book 'The Golden Horseshoe'

If anyone's interested:

Only the First Lieutenant was held a coward by the German POW's. Rahmlow was moved for his own safety to another camp before the German POW's could have a Council of Honour meeting to dicussed the Captains outcome. (Rahmlow arrived days later this is why he was not questioned first) Yes the First Lieutenant of U-570 was held as a coward by the German prisoners but he did try to redeem himself.

When the crew of U-570 turned up to the prison camp the POW's formed a " Council of Honour" held by Otto Kretschmer Captain of U-99 (we all know who Otto Kretschmer is so i wont go into any detail who he is, If you dont know then read 'The Golden Horseshoe' or head to U-boat.net research info there! :)) to discuss Rahmlow and his officers fate. Questions were asked:

1. Had Rahmlow and his officers shown cowardice?
2. Had Rahmlow been at fault in abandoning his command by paddling over to the destroyer?
3. Why had U-570 not been scuttled to avoid capture?


Kretschmer announced to the Council of Honour's opinion and his own decision, The First Lieutenant had been found guilty of cowardice in the face of the enemy, and when the German's occupied England he was to be handed over to the authorities for court-martial. This sentence in effect isolated him from the rest of the POW community. Two other naval officers of his term were ordered by Kretschemer to be responsible for looking after him.

The strain of not only being a prisoner but of being ex-communicated by his countrymen was too much for the First Lieutenant. A few days later one of the guardians reported that he realised now that he had behaved like a coward and wished to allowed atone by committing suicide. Kretschemer replied by saying that such a stupid suggestion made him even more of a coward.

To make a long story short. Information was gathered that U-570 had been taken to Barrow-in-France, where she was moored to a buoy in a narrow channel. After this information had been confirmed by a talkative guard it was passed to Kretschmer, who immediately called a meeting of senior officers in his room to tell them of a plan which might serve the two-fold purpose of destroying the U-boat and giving the First Lieutenant a chance to regain his honour. He was to be told to escape with the mission of getting to Barrow, boarding the U-boat and scuttling it. If he agreed to this plan the Council of Honour would see to it that this mission was taken into account at his eventual court-martial. The officer agreed and at once the plan was put into action.

The First Lieutenant managed to escape but not get very far he was found by the home guards who found him hiding near some rocks, after questioning they believed his planned story but to be sure they wanted to take him to be identified thus the Lieutenant knew he would be identified as the missing prisoner so he made a run for it. After the guards had ordered him to stop which he didn't they open fire, with a bullet hitting him in the back, still alive they took him to a nearby farmhouse where the farmers wife tried to tend to his wound the best she could while one of the guards was sent to get a doctor. The First Lieutenant was dead before the doctor arrived.

Otto Kretschmer ordered that the First Lieutenant cowardice be wiped and replaced with the honor he deserved.

Full story can be found in The Golden Horseshoe pages 158 - 167

[JU_88]

Hey, many Of the British S and the larger T class Subs served in the Far East, a few of them started the war patroling in the north Sea (Norwiegen campaign)

Then made there way to the Med, where they had the most success and Impact on the Axis occupation in North Africa -
and if they survived that - some later ended up traveling to south east Asia (Via the Allied controlled Suez cannel)
They were based out of Trincomalee (Ceylon)then later opperated out of Fremantle (Australia).

I'd love a British Sub campaign to come to SH more than anything, first you get to battle it with the Germans, then the Italians, and lastly the Japanese...:yep:
It would make damn nice change from the usual Type 7 / Gato Line up - simming in those sub types is really getting pretty old in my opinion.

[AVGWarhawk]

Hey, many Of the British S and the larger T class Subs served in the Far East, a few of them started the war patroling in the north Sea (Norwiegen campaign)

Then made there way to the Med, where they had the most success and Impact on the Axis occupation in North Africa -
and if they survived that - some later ended up traveling to south east Asia (Via the Allied controlled Suez cannel)
They were based out of Trincomalee (Ceylon)then later opperated out of Fremantle (Australia).

I'd love a British Sub campaign to come to SH more than anything, first you get to battle it with the Germans, then the Italians, and lastly the Japanese...:yep:
It would make damn nice change from the usual Type 7 / Gato Line up - simming in those sub types is really getting pretty old in my opinion.

Yes it would be some fresh air. I read in this particular book (One of our Submarines) his stint in Malta. In transit to Malta his sonar heard props submerged. He was planning on a sonar attack but decided to call it off as it might have been one of his own. As it was found out, this was a British sub he was tracking. Good stuff. Currently in the book he is commanding the HMS Storm. Spotted a Japanese sub on the surface but could not get in good firing position. This is were I stopped reading last night.

[Sensekhmet]

It would make damn nice change from the usual Type 7 / Gato Line up - simming in those sub types is really getting pretty old in my opinion.


Ain't that the truth. There were a whole lot of more interesting subs, that's for sure (note: I did not say better, just more interesting). The Japanese giants equipped with recon sea planes spring to mind, for example (one can only dream about using that plane as a sort of extended surface sensors... a nice twist would be the need to recover it before submerging, else it would be lost for the rest of patrol).
Being Polish i have a natural twist, so I'd like to sail on Orzel class ocean subs (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=228&navy=ORP) or the smaller Wilk class (http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=231&navy=ORP).
Being able to replay that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orze%C5%82_incident would be a bonus :D

[Schroeder]

There is a T-Class sub mod for SH IV. :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

There is a T-Class sub mod for SH IV. :up:


:yep:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=137856&highlight=t-class

[JU_88]

Yeah I seen that mod, it looks good - though its a shame the model & texture are abit shabby though... I should know as I made them :oops:
In my defence It was never intended to be used as a player sub and was still learning the ropes with 3d modling a skinning at the time. So if any one used that mod and though the sub looks a bit dodgy, you know who to blame. :D

[FIREWALL]

Yeah I seen that mod, it looks good - though its a shame the model & texture are abit shabby though... I should know as I made them :oops:
In my defence It was never intended to be used as a player sub and was still learning the ropes with 3d modling a skinning at the time. So if any one used that mod and though the sub looks a bit dodgy, you know who to blame. :D


I think she's a beauty. :up: Thx JU_88 for your time and effort. :salute:

[JU_88]

No probs, Anyway Keltos has worked hard on the mod and also included some visual improvments to the sub - so kudos to him :|\\

[LukeFF]

Iron coffins is a great read whatever you BELIEVE or however you may FEEL about it or its surrounding subject matter.

Well, apparently your idea of a good book is different from mine. If a nonfiction book written by someone "who was there" is found to be full of errors, lies and exaggerations, that doesn't make it a great read. Or, do you really believe the French Foreign Legion really was recruiting former German naval officers into its ranks after the war? :har:

What IS obvious is that you are unable to make your case with any class.

Take your attitude problem elsewhere.

Oh, so since I've posted a dissenting opinion, now I have an attitude problem? Nice logic there.

No, I think I'll stay right here, thank you very much.

[LukeFF]

would you really sit in front of a veteran while he was telling his story and call him out on what you think is BS and what is not???

If I had solid evidence that his story was BS, then yes, I would. Just as I would be totally deserving of criticism if I started making up BS stories about my time in Iraq.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah I seen that mod, it looks good - though its a shame the model & texture are abit shabby though... I should know as I made them :oops:
In my defence It was never intended to be used as a player sub and was still learning the ropes with 3d modling a skinning at the time. So if any one used that mod and though the sub looks a bit dodgy, you know who to blame. :D

Yeah but you know what, that sub is the step in the right direction of what could be done if ones mine is put to it:up: She be a cool boat Ju_88:up:

[AVGWarhawk]

LukeFF/KL, play nice. Opinions are just that, opinions, whether agreeable nor not.

[Oneshot/Onekill]

If I had solid evidence that his story was BS, then yes, I would. Just as I would be totally deserving of criticism if I started making up BS stories about my time in Iraq.


Cut him some slack people...He lives in the land of fruits and nuts. I should know, I was stationed out in that god forsaken state for 8yrs.

Fox Co. 2nd Battalion 7th Marine Regiment 1st Marine Division, 29 Palms Ca.:nope:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

EVERY personal account of submarine warfare is written with the author'(s) spin on any given situation... REGARDLESS of nationality.

NO INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNT of submarine warfare should be viewed as a cross-section of typical life within any given branch.

Iron coffins is a great read whatever you BELIEVE or however you may FEEL about it or its surrounding subject matter.

What IS obvious is that you are unable to make your case with any class.

Take your attitude problem elsewhere.

Well, apparently your idea of a good book is different from mine. If a nonfiction book written by someone "who was there" is found to be full of errors, lies and exaggerations, that doesn't make it a great read. Or, do you really believe the French Foreign Legion really was recruiting former German naval officers into its ranks after the war? :har:



Oh, so since I've posted a dissenting opinion, now I have an attitude problem? Nice logic there.

No, I think I'll stay right here, thank you very much.

@LukeFF
The problem is not with your opinion, but your obvious attitude problem, lack of respect, and condescension to all who may see things differently than you.

GoldenRivet has explained the intent and nature of the thread to you. You can't accept that because you're simply looking for a fight and another "Das Boot" movie argument.

As has been the case before, you are simply tossing a Baby Ruth in the swimming pool in the way that you talk to people.

...but HEY ALL US U-BOAT DRIVERS ARE CARD-CARRYING NAZI PARTY MEMBERS RIGHT? :88)

Get over yourself. Stop pouting and go hijack some other thread.

[martes86]

...but HEY ALL US U-BOAT DRIVERS ARE CARD-CARRYING NAZI PARTY MEMBERS RIGHT? :88)

Get over yourself. Stop pouting and go hijack some other thread.

Remark: we don't drive U-Boats, we commandeer a simulated U-Boat.
And, I think he doesn't think we're all nazi party members (or I wouldn't be able to stand him, lol).


Seriously (globally speaking)... this is just a book discussion, is there any need to show the world how harsh the talk is around here? Peace has to come from one side, and so it spreads to the other sides... but if one doesn't stop, no one does. So please, stop this, and hold a civil discussion, or be silent.

Cheers :rock:

[Hitman]

Enough.

Go have your personal wrestling via PM, you have hijacked enough this thread. I'm closing it since even the thread starter wasn't happy about the route it was taking. :nope: