China moving away from the dollar

[Skybird]

Repeatedly I said that if China ever decides to exchange it's dollar reserves (and insane ammounts of American bonds which kept the US economy running) for another currency, then this would cause major damage to the US financial economy. They even have started a silent, slow moving policy to replace their dollars some time ago, like several arabian states also started to do. These actions so far were almost unnoticed, and not causing serious consequences so far. But this time eventually it could become something more real.

And I must say that if I try to see things from their perspective, they even have valid, reasonable points in their concerns.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123780272456212885.html

This better gets understood as a yelling wakeup call now.


Chinese officials are frustrated at their financial dependence on the U.S., with Premier Wen Jiabao this month publicly expressing "worries" over China's significant holdings of U.S. government bonds. The size of those holdings means the value of the national rainy-day fund is mainly driven by factors China has little control over, such as fluctuations in the value of the dollar and changes in U.S. economic policies. While Chinese banks have weathered the global downturn and continue to lend, the collapse in demand for the nation's exports has shuttered factories and left millions jobless.
(...)
"The outbreak of the crisis and its spillover to the entire world reflected the inherent vulnerabilities and systemic risks in the existing international monetary system," Mr. Zhou said. The increasing number and intensity of financial crises suggests "the costs of such a system to the world may have exceeded its benefits."
(...)
Holding more international reserves in SDRs would increase the role and powers of the IMF. That indicates China and other developing nations aren't hostile to international financial institutions -- they just want to have more say in running them. China has resisted the U.S. push to make an immediate loan to the IMF because that wouldn't give China a bigger vote.


Gleithner meanwhile indicated they will need even more money for their toxic paper rescue with tax money. Which will increase state debts and budget deficit too, no matter how they are doing. I can't even speculate about the ammount of inflation we will have to battle with after the current crisis is over. To abuse a headline from the WP: there is little use in fighting a fire that way that afterwards the world is devastated in a flooding. That china and other emerging economies, but also Europeans, are loosing smypathy for an economic model doing so, and by it'S ways has caused the desaster, is fully understandable.

I think the chinese are right. and they are realistic, expressing they are fully aware that implementing a new international reserve currency not depending on a single national economy would take much time.

But if we do not get started, how much time will have passed once we have reached the day when such an implementation would have been finsihed - if only it would have been started back then? ;)

[SteamWake]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/03/23/china-takes-aim-dollar-urges-new-global-currency/

[Rockstar]

I think the dollar is being driven down intentionally to cause fear. Now we hear subtle calls for getting rid of the dollar. To establish a global currency when things are going well cannot be done. But if things are miserable, people are afraid and scratching for food then introducing a new currency should be easy as people will see it as a relief rather an infringement on the their liberties and national pride.

On the other hand I know too the U.S. has a military no other army in the world can match or defeat. But there is a way to bring this country and Europe to it's knees and thats by hitting the economy. Just like they tried in 9/11.


Just my 0.2 cents worth of conspiracy theories ;)

[Skybird]

Fact is that china directly finances the excesses of the US in spending (and military adventures), and they have all reason to be worried now that for the billions and billions in bailouts their own economy will need to pay for. Why should they want to continue with that? And why should europe do want to continue with that, too? Just 2-3 months ago the US has agreed to implement better transparency and minimum rules of supervision over financial markets - and at the present the Us already has started to rudder back from that and trying to argue that one should not do that and that all the former negotiations should not be taken so serious. America is unable since long to pay for it'S finacial excesses and it'S unsolid economc course by it'S own productivity anymore, it is hanging on all the globe'S finacial drip. But it demands to be seen as the leading economist in the world. That is absurd. If anything, it is the leadsing consumer and waster.

And this has to end. We do not wish to pay for that anymore.

All the West has lived beyond it'S means, also europe, but nowhere it has been that excessive and so much on tick as in the United States.

The cold war has seen it's own kind of stability, becasue two powers exisxted, not just one. with the fall of one of them, things became unstable and more insecure. I think in comparable ways a forming of another fincial hostspot in the world rivalling US claims and forcing the US to implement more serious and better qualified economic proceedings only can be good for all. The past 15 years have shown that the show left to one actor alone only leads to things detoriating. Monopolism never is good - except for the monopolist.

[SUBMAN1]

China is a bit scared of the US since if the US ever needed to repay its loans to China, they would just print a bunch of money - as the Fed recently shown us this week no less. So this leaves China in a bit of a precarious situation now doesn't it?

But this is more Skybird fear mongering. Does it ruin your day Skybird when you can't find a negative article about the US of A? :D

-S

[GoldenRivet]

fair enough

perhaps the dollar should move away from china :03:

[Sea Demon]

This is a non issue. And most of the G20 has discounted it. If China and the Russians think that they can just create a "currency" from nothing that can sustain and grow economies, they're going to find out it's not very easy. Dollars may be devalued these days, but the American consumer market tied with all the innovation, new technologies created here, demand for those technologies abroad, and strong entrepreneurship are where the true value of a nation's long term wealth lies. If China stops buying US debt, they will lose our markets and a whole lot of major bilateral deals. If they attempt to crash the dollar, they're going to lose their shirts and much more.

[XLjedi]

:yawn: ...and why are Chinese banks lending to foreign nations? They don't have enough investment grade or better domestic debtors to issue credit to so they have to look beyond their borders.

Yeah, I think it's unfortunate news... for China.

The US doesn't need China to devalue the dollar, we do it just fine all by ourselves by electing policy makers who tell the fed to keep hitting that print button. I dunno I'm no armchair global economist, a devalued dollar equates to less foreign investment, so the dollars tend to stay within the US. We might even benefit by cutting back on our imports as a result of a weak dollar.

[FIREWALL]

Haven't you guys figured it out yet. :DL

Skybird lives for finding these " hair-brained articles " and posting them here.:haha:

[Skybird]

:yawn: ...and why are Chinese banks lending to foreign nations? They don't have enough investment grade or better domestic debtors to issue credit to so they have to look beyond their borders.

Yeah, I think it's unfortunate news... for China.

The US doesn't need China to devalue the dollar, we do it just fine all by ourselves by electing policy makers who tell the fed to keep hitting that print button. I dunno I'm no armchair global economist, a devalued dollar equates to less foreign investment, so the dollars tend to stay within the US. We might even benefit by cutting back on our imports as a result of a weak dollar.

2003, there was no Chinese bank amongst the world'S top 25.

2006, there as just one chinese bank on 20.

2008, there were three Chinese banks amongst the top five, Amongst them the world's top one with the - by far - highest market capital of all.

At the same time, american banks' importance saw a dramatic decline.

Regarding the intended devaluation of the dollar, that is wanted and done by the US already, in order to water down their stellar debts without paying them back in current real values. The higher inflation becomes, the smaller any accumulated debts get weighted in the overall bilance. What China suggests, however, is not just a devaluation of the dollar, but a replacement of the dollar as the international "currency unit". If that would happen, it would deliver a blow to the US economy which no longer would have a license to print money at will whenever it needs it.

I myself would have thought about linking international currencies again to real material values, like it was with Gold before Bretton Woods. Mind you the real-value-backing of a national currency has just been given up to have free hand to spend more money for the Vietnam war then one could earn by economic means. It was a decision to no longer produce the finacial backup one needed, but to spend on tick and pay a war one could not afford by one'S own financial and economic power.

The rral nicety here is that one said one leaves it to the next egneration to pay debts back, and that economic growth would compensate for it (thge mopdern myth of ever increasing economic growth, as if that could ever be possible). That was said in the early 70s already. And here we are, 40 years andf two generations later - and still we hear that it is left to the next egenration to pay debts back.

There is no intention to ever pay them back. We party while being alive. And after our death the great flooding - who cares. Aren't we fantastic, aren't we great. Maybe any of the next generations cannot pay back our debts. But what they can is to curse their forefathers for their stupidity and brutal selfishness and retarded shortsightedness they practices at the cost of their children they - wrongly - claimed to love and - wrongly - claimed to feel responsible for.

[SUBMAN1]

Yawn. Just count the number of banks in China vs that in the US. Its easy to make a mega bank if the state owns the banks and only have a few to choose from for a billion + people.

Next you are going to talk about oil, but count how many oil companies currently exit in China? Not hard to figure out that it will be a whopper.

-S

[XLjedi]

All I know is, if the price at the local China Buffet goes up another dollar I'm doomed...

[Freiwillige]

We Americans are just paying the piper for greedy corperate self interests that sold the production value of America overseas. Ive long since stated that any nation that exports its jobs while importing cheap foreighn labor has a bleak future. The U.S. economy used to be a powerhouse back by major manufacturing of global goods. Now we make nothing and import everything and people wonder why the U.S. trade deficate is so massive?

Corperations and the U.S. government have long been getting hand outs for stripping apart and selling the U.S. economy. When are we going to wake up? NAFTA was supposed to help American workers, Instead it helped export more industry! Corperations have cheeper labor costs and a little of that green goes to Governmental kickbacks and "donations" so that more laws are passed making it easier to export America's future.

[FIREWALL]

We Americans are just paying the piper for greedy corperate self interests that sold the production value of America overseas. Ive long since stated that any nation that exports its jobs while importing cheap foreighn labor has a bleak future. The U.S. economy used to be a powerhouse back by major manufacturing of global goods. Now we make nothing and import everything and people wonder why the U.S. trade deficate is so massive?

Corperations and the U.S. government have long been getting hand outs for stripping apart and selling the U.S. economy. When are we going to wake up? NAFTA was supposed to help American workers, Instead it helped export more industry! Corperations have cheeper labor costs and a little of that green goes to Governmental kickbacks and "donations" so that more laws are passed making it easier to export America's future.

You either read my mind or we're on the same wavelength. :up:

[XLjedi]

Ya know, I don't really wish to get up on my capitalist soapbox but I'm a little tired of people characterizing US corporations with phrases like "greedy self-interests".

It's one thing to poke at the compensation packages of execs and mock the disparity between workforce and executive pay. It's another to just label US corps as greedy compared to foreign corporations.

Most corporations in the US see at least 40% of their earnings go directly to the US Gov't in the form of taxes. US corporations are among the highest taxed entities on the planet. If you want to entice US corporations to do more business inside the US then...

1) Stop making investment in every other country on the planet a tax haven to the US and...

2) Stop penalizing companies for repatriating foreign earned income. Right now if you only pay 25% income taxes in Canada the US would charge you the difference as you brought that money back into the US for reinvestment. The US tax code is keeping foreign earned income offshore.

[bookworm_020]

China can't afford to dump the U.S. Dollar and run, because if the U.S. economy takes a dive due to the Chinese ditching U.S. bonds, they will be cutting their own throats, as 50% of their trade surplus comes from the U.S. and no other market can absorb the goods and trade.

[Freiwillige]

That is another issue. The Federal tax sytem is set up to punish any manufacturer who makes things in America! Here is one fine example.

Maytag! For those of you who do not know Maytag as a company ceased to exsist around 2004. Maytag made everything in America and the government just taxed the hell out of them while other company's such as Whirlpool left and started making their products in Asia. The results? Whirlpool got tax breaks for shipping jobs over seas while Maytag got hammered. Maytag the name still exsists but they are owned by Whirlpool and as soon as they were bought they packed up the manufacturing plants and shipped them out!

We Americans are getting scammed. By our so called leaders, By foreighn interests, By corperations.

[Platapus]

Maytag! For those of you who do not know Maytag as a company ceased to exsist around 2004. Maytag made everything in America and the government just taxed the hell out of them while other company's such as Whirlpool left and started making their products in Asia. The results? Whirlpool got tax breaks for shipping jobs over seas while Maytag got hammered. Maytag the name still exsists but they are owned by Whirlpool and as soon as they were bought they packed up the manufacturing plants and shipped them out!

We Americans are getting scammed. By our so called leaders, By foreighn interests, By corperations.

No scamming, just Capitolism.

This was an excellent example of Capitalism at its best. And Capitalism is supposed to be what America is about, right?

Both companies (Whirlpool and Maytag) were in existence to make money. Corporations are not social programs, nor political entities. They are in business to make business pay off. They are motivated by profit, not social goodness.

Whirlpool, operating legally, changed their business model to maximize their profits by lowering their costs. Maytag chose not to.

Whirlpool chose to use the laws of business to their advantage. Maytag chose not to.

Whirlpool prospered and Maytag failed. This is exactly how it is supposed to work in a Capitalistic market.

What's to gripe about? It would be rather hypocritical to only like Capitalism when it works in your favour.

We may wring our hands about Corporations moving jobs overseas, but that is not a concern with Corporations (or their stockholders (us )). Profit is.

Clearly the market (us again) made their choices very clear. We preferred the cheaper Whirlpool over the Maytag stuff. Again, Capitalism working as intended.

Now, if we want corporations to be more concerned with what is good for the US and its citizens, we need to make the conscious decision to move away from Capitalism and adopt Nationalism. A step I don't think too many people really want to take.

Me? I like Capitalism. It works for me. I want to be able to buy the bestest for the leastest.

As a Capitalist, I would have a hard time paying more just because something is made in America (and probably lower quality to boot)

A Nationalist would have no problem with this.

This is what it comes down to -- Is the consumer willing to pay more for a domestic product when a cheaper product is available from overseas?

Factor in quality and the equation may get uglier for American Businesses. It took us about 50 years to kill the domestic product market. It will take many years to rebuild it....if we can. (Just wait until the African industrial revolution happens in about 20+ years)

It kinda sucks when Capitalism works against America, but that's Capitalism for you.

[baggygreen]

China in my opinion are becoming more and more of a creeping threat to the west.

Should they choose, at any point, to call in the US debt, what would happen? collapse. What if they choose to call in our debt? We couldn't pay it back.

What happens if they did that and then decided for example to make a move on Taiwan, or into Siberia, or even just to the Spratleys? We could do nothing about it, and suddenly the Chinese are self-sufficient.

I have no doubt that this day is coming. Before long, we can say goodbye to the era of English being the global language. How do we say hi in Mandarin, anyways?

[Freiwillige]

No scamming, just Capitolism.

This was an excellent example of Capitalism at its best. And Capitalism is supposed to be what America is about, right?

Both companies (Whirlpool and Maytag) were in existence to make money. Corporations are not social programs, nor political entities. They are in business to make business pay off. They are motivated by profit, not social goodness.

Whirlpool, operating legally, changed their business model to maximize their profits by lowering their costs. Maytag chose not to.

Whirlpool chose to use the laws of business to their advantage. Maytag chose not to.

Whirlpool prospered and Maytag failed. This is exactly how it is supposed to work in a Capitalistic market.

What's to gripe about? It would be rather hypocritical to only like Capitalism when it works in your favour.

We may wring our hands about Corporations moving jobs overseas, but that is not a concern with Corporations (or their stockholders (us )). Profit is.

Clearly the market (us again) made their choices very clear. We preferred the cheaper Whirlpool over the Maytag stuff. Again, Capitalism working as intended.

Now, if we want corporations to be more concerned with what is good for the US and its citizens, we need to make the conscious decision to move away from Capitalism and adopt Nationalism. A step I don't think too many people really want to take.

Me? I like Capitalism. It works for me. I want to be able to buy the bestest for the leastest.

As a Capitalist, I would have a hard time paying more just because something is made in America (and probably lower quality to boot)

A Nationalist would have no problem with this.

This is what it comes down to -- Is the consumer willing to pay more for a domestic product when a cheaper product is available from overseas?

Factor in quality and the equation may get uglier for American Businesses. It took us about 50 years to kill the domestic product market. It will take many years to rebuild it....if we can. (Just wait until the African industrial revolution happens in about 20+ years)

It kinda sucks when Capitalism works against America, but that's Capitalism for you.

You are entirely correct in all of your points above. Whirpool chose the better long term market strategy. But the question poses itself as to why it is cheaper to move overseas in the first place? Answer, Government laws and regulations. Why would our government tax heavily any US based manufacturing but give tax breaks to those who shift opperations overseas? Foreighn interests and lobby in washington! Should not our own Government protect the interests of the American worker?

Now im not talking about protectionism, just eqauling the playing field.
Tax breaks should be given to to companys who make products here. Not the other way around.

[Schroeder]

Still wouldn't change much since the worker in China get 0,50$ an hour (I don't know how much they get, but I think it is nothing you could make a living off in any western country). So tax alone can't compensate for the higher income in the western world. You would have to accept an income below the one of a Chinese to make the companies stay here. Good luck in trying.

The attitude to want everything as cheap as possible is one that will screw the western world big time soon because we all are just buying products that aren't made here anymore and therefore we will destroy our jobs and our nations....(says the guy with the Japanese car....).:hmm2:

[Tchocky]

But the question poses itself as to why it is cheaper to move overseas in the first place? Answer, Government laws and regulations. Why would our government tax heavily any US based manufacturing but give tax breaks to those who shift opperations overseas? Foreighn interests and lobby in washington!
Not really.

It's a lot cheaper to live in China than it is the US. Standards and costs of living are higher in the US. Therefore workers in the US will demand higher wages for the same work than a worker in China. It's a no-brainer for a corporation to lower it's cost base. It's the reason my job is being outsourced in the next few months.
Tax breaks to businesses play a role, but it's rather small when compared with the vast gap in wage rates.

I mean, you don't see many US manfacturing jobs being outsourced to France or Sweden, do you?

[August]

Environmental regulations (or lack thereof) have a lot to do with it too. It's a lot cheaper to produce things when you don't have to pay to safely dispose of the resulting toxic waste.

I think we should apply tariffs to goods that come from countries that have less restrictive green laws than ours.

[Tchocky]

Quite a lot of money made in shipping waste to less-developed countries.

Helps Western governments achieve their environmental targets, I guess.

Sigh

[Schroeder]

I think we should apply tariffs to goods that come from countries that have less restrictive green laws than ours.
I think that would be a good idea.:up:

But again, that is against the laws of capitalism.

[Platapus]

But the question poses itself as to why it is cheaper to move overseas in the first place? Answer, Government laws and regulations.

Cheap labour that will work long hours, assemble things according to the plan, with no unions that simply jack up the costs and add little to production?

[Christopher Snow]

Skybird: The new powers that be in Washington D.C. have simply renamed those toxic assets "Legacy assets" instead, so there's really nothing to worry about any more.

All your EU countries...and the Chinese too...should be lining up any minute now to start buying them in droves. :D


CS

[Skybird]

Skybird: The new powers that be in Washington D.C. have simply renamed those toxic assets "Legacy assets" instead, so there's really nothing to worry about any more.

All your EU countries...and the Chinese too...should be lining up any minute now to start buying them in droves. :D


CS

Will not happen. :O: It just was in the news yesterday that British and German state bonds lay like lead in the shelves. People do not buy them, ruining the governments' calculations to raise financial funding that way. Now, US bonds are even more toxic and worthless than British and German ones, which are diamonds in comparison. International markets since years are overflooded with Us bonds. Some said that US bonds already are the new currency that has taken over the role of the dollar. :) And the Chinese - are over and over saturated with American bonds. the Iraq war was indirectly financed by the Chinese that way, as was the trade deficit of the past and the budget deficit.

Maybe there should be a new unified two-national medal for both countries, kind of a congress medal with Mao's portrait in the heart of it. :D

[Christopher Snow]

No of course it won't happen. Not in the real-world.

But in the new administration, things are different: Renaming them is SUPPOSED to work! See? So we renamed them! It'll work!

No, sadly our fearless leader and his followers/underlings still don't see the problem--but it's ok, because we all know they are still the only hope for the entire world.*

Or....

...as any "rocker" knows...

......................................The "gain" knob on this amp goes to ELEVEN!!!!

----------------
[* No. Obama hasn't noticed yet that he wasn't elected President of the Globe...but eventually his teleprompter will let him in on the terrible secret].

Last: When WW3 happens, it might well be fought over who's portrait finally goes into the middle of that medal.


CS