Interesting article about Top Gun

[XabbaRus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/5032158/American-Top-Gun-fighter-pilot-academy-set-up-by-British.html

Think I will get the book too.

[OneToughHerring]

"Gooose! Don't die Goose!"

*sniff* What interpretation, what depth of emotion. :)

[UnderseaLcpl]

Why didn't we have the Germans set it up instead? They've always got the highest-scoring aces.....

[Bewolf]

We never had special schools for fighter training. To my knowledge, the same standarts applied to everybody, and still do.

Reasons for german aces scoring so high:

-up until 1942 very high standarts of training for "all" conscripts.
-lots of expirience gained in the spanish civil war.
-usage of new tactics, finger four, boom and zoom etc.
-state of the art equipment
-6 years of continues war. German pilots fought from the start to the end, no 25 missions rotations.
-target rich environments.
-a rather agressive attitude, the german term for a fighter aircraft, "jäger" is directly translated with "hunter".

All in all no magic in there. Just a lot of capable pilots in capable aircraft with capable tactics against masses of mostly inexpirienced pilots in obsolete aircraft without modern tactics.

That changed from 1943 onwards, however. Attacking bomber streams numbering to the thousand takes a lot of capability out of the equation and replaces it with pure luck.

WW1 was roughly similiar, however with the opposition much more on equal terms.

So, not really a reference for setting up modern day fighter training schools.

[Sailor Steve]

Good points, Bewolf. I would, however, take exception to the conclusion of masses of inexperienced pilots overwhelming the pros. Part of the American 100-mission (not 25 - that was just for bomber crews) rotation was to have the experts teach the novices what they learned. If you take any limited time-frame and compare the best pilots from any nation, you will find that within the same periods the scores were about the same.

[Kapt Z]

Good points, Bewolf. I would, however, take exception to the conclusion of masses of inexperienced pilots overwhelming the pros. Part of the American 100-mission (not 25 - that was just for bomber crews) rotation was to have the experts teach the novices what they learned. If you take any limited time-frame and compare the best pilots from any nation, you will find that within the same periods the scores were about the same.


Yes. I'd say the sheer number of missions flown by the Luftwaffe pilots was the biggest factor in their high number of kills compared to other nations pilots in WWII.

[antikristuseke]

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4849/1237916410018.gif

[Max2147]

Yes. I'd say the sheer number of missions flown by the Luftwaffe pilots was the biggest factor in their high number of kills compared to other nations pilots in WWII.
Agreed. A factor that contributed to that was that German aircraft were usually used in conjunction with the army, so they were usually over their own territory or close to the front lines. That meant that a pilot who was shot down and bailed out had a good chance of getting back to friendly territory, where he'd get another fighter and go fly more missions. The top German aces got shot down dozens of times.

On the other side, the British and especially the Americans were flying long distance missions deep into enemy territory. If they bailed out, they were POW's for the rest of the war.

[Bewolf]

Good points, Bewolf. I would, however, take exception to the conclusion of masses of inexperienced pilots overwhelming the pros. Part of the American 100-mission (not 25 - that was just for bomber crews) rotation was to have the experts teach the novices what they learned. If you take any limited time-frame and compare the best pilots from any nation, you will find that within the same periods the scores were about the same.


Granted, but I was not thinking america here. The US played a role from 1943 onwards, and really came to to party only in 1944, at a time the war was basicly lost already. Thus I didn't really put them into the equation, else you are completly right. I do not consider our pilots that superior. It was just a combination of contributing factors.

[Bewolf]

Agreed. A factor that contributed to that was that German aircraft were usually used in conjunction with the army, so they were usually over their own territory or close to the front lines. That meant that a pilot who was shot down and bailed out had a good chance of getting back to friendly territory, where he'd get another fighter and go fly more missions. The top German aces got shot down dozens of times.

On the other side, the British and especially the Americans were flying long distance missions deep into enemy territory. If they bailed out, they were POW's for the rest of the war.

Well, that is only half the truth. During the battle for France, battle of Britain, Operation Barbarossa and the following russian campaigns, the Balkan and Africa campaigns of 1941/42, over the arctic sea, wherever you look german pilots had to cross front lines on a very regular basis. Only within the Reichsdefense timespan was bailing out over friendly territory a given. You ppl mustn't forget the german airwar was not limited to 1943/44 defense of continental Europe from the US. That was a factor only within the last 2 years of the war.

[Platapus]

I think having a call sign "Dogbreath" would be kinda cool :salute:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Granted, but I was not thinking america here. The US played a role from 1943 onwards, and really came to to party only in 1944, at a time the war was basicly lost already. Thus I didn't really put them into the equation, else you are completly right. I do not consider our pilots that superior. It was just a combination of contributing factors.

Imo, the most definitive factor was the reliance upon small-unit leadership and innovative tactics, and the Germans have historically excelled at one if not both. Germany is not only home to the world's most superlative aerial aces, but some of the most renowned army and navy leaders as well. To this day, the U.S. military attempts to emulate the WW2 German style of tactical assessment.

It is my opinion that Germany's central location in Europe, and tumultuous history, have fostered a superior military tradition. Though it may not be apparent in the Bundeswehr today, it is clearly echoed in modern military tactics throughout the globe.

Forget for a moment the Nazi stigma and look at what Germany, time and again, did in the realm of military tactics.

[Bewolf]

Curious, isn't it? Considering that the old empire was a rather laid back construct when it comes to wars and agression. That only changed with Prussia entering the stage and consequently reuniting Germany under it's flag in a series of wars spanning from the 17th century on up until 1871.

Again, a lot of different aspects coming together here. Beeing in the middle of Europe with very different neighbours that had a tendency to use the regions of modern day Germany as their favorite battlegrounds (France in particular and the 30 years war deserve distinct mentioning here) certainly didn't help in developing a peaceful society in the long run. Thus it's not a real wonder military science was developed to such a high degree here, though it is debateable if this deserves positive credit.

I am personally amazed however, that Germany managed so well in the Navy field (within the limits of a rather small surface fleet). We've never been a sea power.

Anyways, I fear we are derailing this thread =)

[Max2147]

Well, that is only half the truth. During the battle for France, battle of Britain, Operation Barbarossa and the following russian campaigns, the Balkan and Africa campaigns of 1941/42, over the arctic sea, wherever you look german pilots had to cross front lines on a very regular basis. Only within the Reichsdefense timespan was bailing out over friendly territory a given. You ppl mustn't forget the german airwar was not limited to 1943/44 defense of continental Europe from the US. That was a factor only within the last 2 years of the war.
But even when they were over enemy lines the Luftwaffe was generally not very far from friendly territory. It wasn't like the American bomber escort missions where they had hundreds of miles and a body of water between them and friendly territory.

Pretty much every one of the top German aces crashed or was shot down around a dozen times.

[Bewolf]

That's true. Distances covered by american and british bombers into enemy territory certainly far exeeded that of such german missions.

But eh, in doubt, it does not matter much if you are captured close to the front lines or far away. Escaping capture was not the norm, no matter how close to the front line.

[Morts]

But even when they were over enemy lines the Luftwaffe was generally not very far from friendly territory. It wasn't like the American bomber escort missions where they had hundreds of miles and a body of water between them and friendly territory.

Pretty much every one of the top German aces crashed or was shot down around a dozen times.
i think a dozen is maybe a little over the top. but how many missions did the german aces fly compared to the british/americans aces ?

[Bewolf]

Hartmann had 1.404 missions under his butt when the war finished and he only really got into action in 42. Take this into perspective to 25 or 100 mission sorties.

[Dowly]

i think a dozen is maybe a little over the top.

There is quite a few aces who were shot down 5+ times, IIRC the most for one pilot was 13-14 or something like that. :know: