Vista fun

[Skybird]

I now belong to the group of people who have not only read how bad vista is, but who since two days know by expereince how bad it really is.

For my old parents whom suddenly had an interest to go online withiout ver having dealt with computers before, I got a notebook with 4GB and Vista. Before I hand it to them and start to train them, of course I make myself familiar with it, but the notebook and Vista.

The ergonomy of the OS is terrible. Simply that: TERRIBLE. I have started to reactivate long since forgotten knowledge about MS-DOS and CMD and use the command line interpreter to do some things. And this in the times of modern WINDOWS! ! Instead of keeping things simpley and linear, everything is stupidly blown up, raised in effectless copmplexity, it seems. Organizing the data the way I want and not like Vista wants it, I found to be very complex, and frustrating. and when having choosen certain options, they get ignored anyway (SP1 and latest updates).

Plus I have had several freezes so far.

I hate it. I hated it after one day, I hated it yesterday, and I still hate it after having gotten off my bed today. What a phoney Vista is. Shiny surface - but don't look behind it.

Much worse than I feared. If even I stumble into problems time and again, how will it be for a total newcomer to computer things? I can't be around every time. I only hope at least that remote cointrol software I will try does function reliably (Team Viewer)

One thing is clear, if the next Window bases on the handling design of Vista and features a further "improved" ergonomy over that that steps even further into that direction like vista did, then it will be even crappier in handling, than vista, and certainly something I definitely will not take into account. for my personal use, once I need a new system myself maybe it really is time to go with Linux and leave this microsoft crap behind, really.

Tired. Frustrated. Angry. Vista. and now I will use the CMD interface to defrag the damn thing to get at least a minimum idea of how much fragmentised the HD is. Not even such proven things like the graphical defrag overview of XP they were able to keep. Damn Idiots.

[NeonSamurai]

Eh Vista kinda grows on you like a fungus after a while after you get use to its way of doing things. After using it a while I wouldn't in general say that its no worse then XP just a bit different (and more resource hungry).

XP was the same too for that matter, XP drove me crazy with a lot of things including the endless nag messages and some layout issues. I wouldn't call XP the model of efficiency either.

[Thomen]

Interesting. Never had any problems with Vista and runs like a charm for me. I've had many more problems with linux (different distributions), especially during installation. Fedora, as example did not even want to install. It crashed right there every time I tried to install it.
Vista, while it needs some getting used to it time, runs at least for me, stable and reliable.

I also noticed that you had already pretty made up your mind against Vista from the beginning, that might be a problem too that enhances your frustration. :03:

[Wolfehunter]

Neonsamurai is right. XP original was the same. Vista is no different. Both have good sides and bad. I've got windows 7 evaluation copy on another partition. I find I get more performance from win7 than vista. There are many feature similar to vista on windows 7 but less nonsense too.

Anyhow I'm sure there will be people complaining about win 7 like very new OS there alway issues.

I sure do miss the dos days... You can never go wrong there.. :D

[longam]

If you get bored someday try tweaking your vista to the way you like it. I always set UAC to auto elevate without prompt, it was driving me crazy.

http://www.howtogeek.com/tag/windows-vista/

[AVGWarhawk]

I love Vista. I have the Home Premium. Currently, for me, XP is slowly disappearing and very drab. I have no freezes, BSOD with Vista. Runs like a champ. All programs I use run well. Really, I look forward to playing with it everyday. Sorry you are pulling your hair out Skybird. It is a good OS...at least from my experience. You know, my parents run it and have no issues. It is a Toshiba laptop they have it on. My mother loves it.

Google vista64.com for the vista forums. Great forum with all kinds of answers to your questions.

[FIREWALL]

I have XP sp3 and Vista 64 Ultimate on same rig.

No problems with either.

I use 1 OS for somethings and the other OS for others.

[Skybird]

Migrating from Win98 to XP was easy, means handling and running it, of course in the beginning there were many technical problems - but not as many as with Vista, in no way as many. Considering to move from XP to Vista, is a bad dream for me. Vista simply is too unreliable. However, I see it from a different perspective: that of my parents for whom I have prepared the notebook, which had vista preinstalled and plenty of more "good stuff" - I spend all day long with deleting, and then defragmentising - and all that with a much slower technology than my desktop system - no fun. Ergonomy-wise, Vista is shabby and confusing. the new design I rate as "esoteric" at best, and my father who was here this late afternoon and doesnot know much about computers, found Vista much more confusing and disorientating than XP which I had shown to him last month. And I confirm Vista is very unstable, compared to XP. I had more freezes and hanging-ups giving me the opportunity to reboot in just two days, then XP has ever given me since the day I got it, until the day SP1 came out for XP.

Just that SP1 for XP came after much shorter time than Vista is out now - including Vista SP1.

And the number of background tasks and services is hilarious, absolutely hilarious.

I think my parents will curse me for not having talked it out of their heads. Although I certainly did not encourage them.

[Task Force]

Ive kind of gotten to vista 32 bit... Im suprised... It runs stuff well. (crysis on veary high/high)

[AVGWarhawk]

Personally Skybird, the issues you are having I would have returned the computer for a new one. It is either two things, the computer itself or the space between the keyboard and the chair that is creating issues. My parents who are in their mid 70's run a Toshiba laptop with Vista 32 bit. This is from a woman who cried when she received a Mr. Coffee coffee pot for Christmas 25 years ago because she could not figure out the two buttons. On and Off:88) It sits on their kitchen table running wireless now for over a year. Not one crash. My dad downloads as much free crap as he can. I spend hours dumping it for him:doh: Thanks pop. :shifty: I find it hard to believe the computer is or was in good shape out of the box with problems you described. If your computer is freezing out of the box, return it. Also, what type of computer is it? Specs? Less than 2 gigs RAM? If so, you need RAM to run Vista.


Just a thought, reinstall the OS off the disc...if they bothered to give you one.

[FIREWALL]

"Just a thought, reinstall the OS off the disc...if they bothered to give you one. "



quote=FIREWALL;1067704]I have XP sp3 and Vista 64 Ultimate on same rig.

No problems with either.

I use 1 OS for somethings and the other OS for others.[/quote]


bump for dummies

@ AVG You hit it on the head. Alot don't have the complete OS software and\or skill to do that.

[AVGWarhawk]

I think Skybird can handle that. If the new install still runs the same and freezes, time to return the computer and get a new one.

[Skybird]

I reduced the number of background tasks from 130 to some 70, that costed a lot of time in the internet for research, and I hope I have not killed anything vital. I also deleted not only the not needed and the trial-versions of software, but almost all except drivers and vista, and replaced it as far as compatibility allowed with stuff I run on my own rig. I also reduced Vista eye candy options and useless gimmicks as far as possible, and now the thing since some hours seem to run stable, at least significantly more stable than before. CPU use in idel is now 8-13%, before it was 30-38%.

The notebopok itself seem to be not the problem, as far as I can tell all components are running okay, and the thing is quite solid, and well constructed.

Well, I can find work arounds, although I hate to think of an OS needing work arounds, but I see it from the perspective of two older peole whom never had to deal with computers before, did not work in an office with such equipement, and still need 20 minutes or more to program their video recorder. Handling XP would be a challenge for them. Handling Vista is even more a challenge. I think MS doe snot know much about ergonomy, and Vista simply is esoteric.

I see it this way, in 98 or XP you could move from A to be by following a path, and whiole you do you not only reach point B, but also know how you got there, and that gives you a superior sense of orientation and a general understanding of where you are in relation to the whole, that enables you to orientate yourself and improvise if you run out of the automatic scouts. In Vista, you just get beamed from A to B, withiut giving you any clue about the path leading there, and where B is, and what your position in relation to the rest is. That leaves you much more confused and without an as-easy-coming understanding of your orientation. It is needlessly complex, and lesslonear structured that XP. And that is no advantage, but especially for newcomers without earlier experience it is a handicap.

The sister of a girlfriend of mine goives courses at "Volkshochschule", computer for seniors. she says that with XP it already was not easy for many, especially for those not having experiences with computers. She says with Vista the difficulties for these people has increased sharply.

[AVGWarhawk]

Vista does do things differently but you end up in the same place just like XP. It took me about 3 days to get acustomed to Vista. That is with a better learning curve than I suspect your parents have. They will come to understand it. My folks did and as you say with the VCR, just getting my folks to understand how to turn it on is a trial and tribulation unto it's own.

I think you got a good taste of bloat-ware and having the OS fire up everything it has. My computer came with the OS only. I'm sure it makes a world of difference.

[longam]

http://www.shatteredwindows.com/DesktopModules/Articles/MakeThumbnail.aspx?Image=/Portals/2/pictures/sst_phantomerror.JPG&w=400
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Its just that empty feeling that you get when nothing goes right.
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[CaptainHaplo]

70 processes?

Right now - counting all the antivirus, audio,video,joystick, kb and mouse drivers and other "background desired" processes - I have a total of 48. Those process amount to 15 - so you should be down to about 30 -35 OS related threads, then add in the extras.

I have to agree - a full, CLEAN install is the way to go. Put on necessary up to date drivers, SP1 and such. Then when your fully up to date, add all the apps you think your parents will have use for.

Also - if you want the XP way of doing things - just set Vista to run with the XP GUI.

Vista in its default configuration - especially coming "preinstalled" - is nothing but pure bloatware. That isn't so much the fault of the OS, but all the crap thats piled on top.

Honestly - I suspect the crashes your getting are from the bloat - not the OS. Think about this - XP support is going to be gone soon - want your parents on a box that can't get further fixed? The time you have spend trying to "clean" the mess on that box, you could have it clean and running by now - likely problem free.

Remember that removing alot of the bloat can cause OS issues because many "propietary" apps have tie ins with other things. Seriously - format the bugger and then go from there. Your going to have to do that anyway to roll to XP.

[Skybird]

The notebook came preinstalled, without any DVDs. The Samsung Recovery Solution of course allows poyu to make bootable recovering disks and saves an image onto the HD, too.but thta means you cannot install Vista alone.

The 130 background taks where some shock to discover. With XP, after fresh installation, I have some low 20 processes, and later some low-mid 30. Before launching FS9, I use to dump the number down to below 20.

Anyway, I handed it over to them today - and without doubt will spend the next days to visit them time and again. :D Way to go - dry weather, new bike, and good biking options in the MÜnsterland.

Does anyone know "Team Viewer"? I asked in a thread, but nobody seemed to care.

http://www.teamviewer.com/index.aspx

[NeonSamurai]

Nope never heard of that one

[Castout]

I've never had any problem with Vista except during several day after first installing it which I got rid off by installing the latest MOBO BIOS. If I have to complain: I still can't figure a way to organize my installation in the start menu folder list. even after nmaing the folder it got ignored and installed in a default way quite messy I must say.

[Thomen]

The notebook came preinstalled, without any DVDs. The Samsung Recovery Solution of course allows poyu to make bootable recovering disks and saves an image onto the HD, too.but thta means you cannot install Vista alone.

The 130 background taks where some shock to discover. With XP, after fresh installation, I have some low 20 processes, and later some low-mid 30. Before launching FS9, I use to dump the number down to below 20.

Anyway, I handed it over to them today - and without doubt will spend the next days to visit them time and again. :D Way to go - dry weather, new bike, and good biking options in the MÜnsterland.

Does anyone know "Team Viewer"? I asked in a thread, but nobody seemed to care.

http://www.teamviewer.com/index.aspx

70 sounds about right. Plus minus a few. Unlike XP, Vista is still able to run smoothly with a large number of background 'noise'.
I got a pretty large number with around 60 to 70 (which includes the processes for several addons, like keyboard, virus scanner etc). Most of those are unfortunately essential or important for my machine. :nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

Bloatware sucks. :down:

[goldorak]

Bloatware sucks. :down:

Well you could just as easily have said Microsoft sucks. :har:
They don't have a single consumer OS and/or application software that isn't bloatware.
Its a real pity that the only "usable" products are the server ones.

Even Windows 7 is bloatware, a nice shiny coat of paint over Vista and some inner tweakings. We will see how well they do when they dismiss completely 32 bit compatibility. :D

[AVGWarhawk]

Well you could just as easily have said Microsoft sucks. :har:
They don't have a single consumer OS and/or application software that isn't bloatware.
Its a real pity that the only "usable" products are the server ones.

Even Windows 7 is bloatware, a nice shiny coat of paint over Vista and some inner tweakings. We will see how well they do when they dismiss completely 32 bit compatibility. :D


The computer I had built came with the Vista OS and absolutely nothing else. No email come-ons, third party programs or other crap to sign up for. This is the bloat-ware that sucks and takes up hard drive space.

[Tchocky]

I use Vista Enterprise at work, and it's fairly easy to get a handle on, once you get settled. So you can mark that as a problem.

I get users complaining about Vista after moving from another OS, and the problems they're finding are usually those that existed in Windows XP/2k, only amplified because it's a new environment.

Again, the Vista I use and troubleshoot is Enterprise, the big daddy of the lot.
The girlfriend has Home Edition, and it drives me mad. Like driving a car with a compass and a stopwatch. I'm sticking with my XP Media Centre for the time being, mostly due to lack of funds for a new computer:P
I never can understand the tendency towards editions. Home/Professional should be enough. The business model of fewer features/lower price just doesn't work for an OS.

That said, how it takes Vista an hour to copy a GB or two is beyond me.

Plus point for Vista - It needs more RAM than XP, so RAM manufacturers vastly increased production in anticipation of a mass uptake. Which didn't really happen. Hence, lots of cheap RAM for us.

[kiwi_2005]

Vista's not a bad OS its better than XP imo, you just got to run vista on lots of ram and tweak it. Straight out of the box vista is bloated & if your going to do nothing about the bloatware well yeah your going to be frustrated at times. Beats me how techs complained about Vista but if they really new what they are doing they would know that all it takes is some tweaking of the OS and your end up with a sleek faster system than XP will ever be.

Before you even install Vista you should use Vlite this gives you choices on what you want to disable during install you will end up with a very fast OS

If can't be bothered doing that then once Vista bloat version is installed download and register with "Tweak IV Ultimate v1.0" (sept 2008) or later. This tool lets you tweak everything under the hood so to speak.

[CaptainHaplo]

There are so many things - mainly services - that should be turned of in Vista. Same with XP really. Especially in a home environment.

Not using a wireless system? Kill zen. Not sharing data between local pc's? Kill server. etc etc etc.

At least in 7 they FINALLY got rid of that freakin indexer! I hated that thing from day one - and finally it can be YANKED instead of just turned off.

[Digital_Trucker]

You mean you didn't like that "If you do anything with your computer, like use it for something other than a dust magnet, the indexer will not perform as fast as possible" message?:yeah:

[AVGWarhawk]

As far as turning of services. I have not touched that. The machine runs like a hot knife through butter. Feed the need of Vista. I just might look into that turning off of services. :D

[Skybird]

One thing I noted is how incredibly slow things go: security scans. Okay, obviously CPU and Hd speed have a word here, but still: I scan via Avira AntiVir, Spybot S&D, A-squared and Ad-Aware. the notebook has not even 20 GB of data on the working partition. I compare to my own PC, a P4 with 3 GHz, and around 100 GB of data on the HD. Full scans on my PC system take 30 minutes for Spybot, and around 1 hour for the other scanners (in full mode). On the note book, with five times less data. antiVir scanned 40 minutes, Spybot was okay with 15 minutes, A-square scanning 90 minutes, and Ad-Aware I interruoted with crippled nerves after 2,5 hours and 50% of the progress bar visible.

HS! Do that once a week and you need a new HD inserted into the thing every year. :dead:

My Mom also now hates Vista, she says she can't remember the way where it sotres data and how it guides you around. But from that perspective it should be noted that now she is fit (without me giving many explanations), to navigate my own PC - running on XP.

She also currently suffers some form of mental paralysis due to the culture shock. She knew it is a big digital world out there- but now she gets an idea of HOW scaringly big it is. :DL

I also installed Air Hockey for her. She plays it like a crazy 16 year old, laughing all the time. :D

[Skybird]

Also - if you want the XP way of doing things - just set Vista to run with the XP GUI.


I oversaw this. Where and how to adjust that? I will try that next time I have access to their machine.

[CaptainHaplo]

Skybird - right click the start button - go to properties - and select "classic view". It gives you your old desktop icons and start button back. Other screens also offer the classic view - like the control panel for example.

[CaptainHaplo]

Also - Skybird - I think you may have noted what problem you have. Looks like your running multiple scanners there. Remember - each one loads when you boot - and most have to "filter on access" of a file - meaning regardless of memory, cpu speed, hd space, etc - you have a program or file that must be looked at by 4 or more applications that you listed before it can be allowed to "execute" in its own memory space.

Alot of people make this mistake. Remember - Windows has Defender built in - so if you want to run ad-aware or something similiar - turn of defender. Or - don't let the apps autoload. You need ONE - repeat ONE virus scanner/adware/spyware application loaded. You can have others installed - and let them each run their own scan on occasion - but if you let more than one load - your asking for HUGE perfomance hits.

Think of it this way - you ask someone to give you your keys from your jacket pocket. They reach in, look over the keys - and hand em to someone else to pass to you. That person gives them an inspection - and passes them on to the next... do that with 4 people in between you and your keys - and it will take a while for you to get what you need. Same thing going on in your pc.......

[Skybird]

I am aware that you should not have several scanners of the same kind running. But I use free versions of the software(s) only, and while Firewall and Antivirus are active (Windows security centre items switched off and centre disabled), I think the free versions of Spybot and Adaware do not run in the background (just update services, but not the scanners). For Spybot, if I remember correctly, the registry protection (Tea Timer) could be switched to running constantly, and Spybot also blocks the websites in the immunisation databases, but the tea timer I have left off since my Mom does not know what to do if there are constantly some access requests and alarms on changes in the registry.

Spybot and AdAware scan for the same kind of things, but in the past I often had the situation that the one was finding what the other had left out, and the other way around.

Since I run the same software, even in wider functionality modes, I should see the same kind of problem on my system, shouldn't I?

[AVGWarhawk]

I have Windows Defender inactive and only run the free version of Avast antivirus. It has all a general user would need to protect their computer.

[Skybird]

A late addendum:

I had two occasions to run the active scanning processes of the above mentioned programs with windows Defender, Firewall, AntiVir and a handful of more background tasks being activated before.

The scanner still work incredibly slow, so that I would say it does not make any difference at all. The thing that makes the obvious difference seems to be Vista itself indeed.