America Is from Mars, Europe Is from Venus

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-613582,00.html


(...)
For Obama, the answer is clear: The Europeans, especially the Germans, should do more to stimulate growth, preferably by spending billions on additional stimulus programs. Merkel, however, is strictly opposed to the idea. On Saturday, she rejected calls for new stimulus packages after meeting with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown in London. "Nothing has actually yet taken effect on the ground," she told reporters. "If we want to actually strengthen the effect of such packages we will simply have to implement them first, and not already talk about the next to come."

The German chancellor is trying to build support for her position throughout the European Union. At a joint press conference last week, French President Nicolas Sarkozy concurred with Merkel when he said: "The problem is not spending more money, but putting in place financial systems of regulation."

In addition to straining German-American relations, the conflict threatens to overshadow the London meeting of the 20 most important industrialized nations, the G-20, in early April. Until now, the item at the top of the planned agenda was a discussion of tighter supervision of international financial markets. But, as officials close to Merkel have noted, the United States is only moderately interested in this issue. Instead, Washington is pushing for a global initiative to stimulate demand with new government spending programs. "They are creating tremendous pressure," says one adviser to the chancellor.

For economists, the German-American conflict brings back unpleasant memories. During the world economic crisis of the 1930s, the European countries and the United States were also unable to agree on a common strategy. The result was a worldwide trade war, which accelerated the economic plunge into depression.

At their first summit meeting last November in Washington, the industrialized nations made it clear that this cannot be allowed to happen again. But now there is a growing rift between the United States and continental Europe.
(...)
Given the current situation, it isn't exactly surprising that his advisors are citing an old piece of economic wisdom: The best economic stimulus program is the one your neighbor pays for. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner spoke last week of a "global crisis which requires a global response." In plain language, he was saying that the European countries, in particular, should pump more money -- a lot more money -- into the world economy. "Our economy needs a revival of global growth," Geithner said, by way of explanation of his appeal.
(...)
The American government is currently operating according to the principle of "more is more." Money is irrelevant in Washington, where the stumbling economy is being bailed out with an unprecedented flood of government cash.


This approach is based on the idea that the economy functions largely in accordance with the relatively simple laws of hydraulics: If demand declines somewhere, be it in the form of investment, consumption or export, the government will intervene with its billions. Whether the funds can even be spent effectively any more stopped mattering a long while ago.


But not in Berlin. The German government officials listened patiently to their American counterparts' wishes, only to reject them politely but firmly. Germany, they argued, has already upped the ante with its own stimulus program, and many measures have not even reached the economy yet. For this reason, they insisted, it makes sense to wait to see how effective they will be. Besides, the Germans argued, the German efforts are totally comparable with the American efforts. They also reminded the Obama team that the crisis began in the United States, making it more than appropriate for the Americans to be playing a bigger role in resolving the crisis. In short, they suggested, no further action was to be expected from Germany.

This position stems from a concern about taking on even more debt. Germany is already heading for a new record national debt, and next year is not looking any better. Getting into debt is not nearly as popular among Germans as it is elsewhere, especially not in an election year. There are widespread fears in the population that the mountain of government debt can only be reduced by increasing inflation.

There are good reasons for this attitude. Based on the size and capacity of their respective economies, the two countries' rescue packages are not very far apart. Germany will have spent 3.5 percent of its economic output on its stimulus package by next year, the IMF calculated for last weekend's meeting of G-20 finance ministers. This includes 1.5 percent for this year and 2 percent for 2010.


http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1465203,00.jpg DER SPIEGEL
Graphic: Stimulus packages in selected industrialized countries.



According to the experts, the American stimulus package is only slightly larger than the German one, when seen in terms of GDP. The Americans will spend 2 percent of their annual economic output on stimulus programs this year, and 1.8 percent next year. "We don't have to hide behind that," German government officials say with confidence.

The impressive difference in the deficit figures results primarily from the fact that the Americans have a sizeable deficit in public spending to deal with, even without their bailout packages. Germany's government budget, on the other hands, was almost balanced before the crisis.
In addition, Germany's version of the social welfare state lends additional stability to the economy, because it essentially adjusts government expenditures automatically to suit the economic situation. Thus, for example, unemployment benefits, which are significantly more generous in Germany than in the United States, help to shore up consumption in times of drastically rising unemployment, because the jobless still have a certain amount of money at their disposal. Economists refer to this as an "automatic stabilizer."

This is another reason Berlin is showing no inclination to give in to American pressure.
(...)
At their monthly meeting in Brussels early last week, the European finance ministers agreed to rebuff the Americans for now. "We should concentrate on the efforts that have already been approved," said German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrück.

His counterparts, Steinbrück said, ought to think about how countries can best return to orderly finances and balanced budgets as quickly as possible once the crisis ends. This wish must have sounded like a provocation to the Americans.

Reactions in the United States were not surprising. The behavior is "very German," said economist Paul Krugman, last year's winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics. "Sometimes I think Germany has still not yet understood the enormous scale of the crisis."
(...)
Chancellor Merkel, at any rate, is under the impression that the financial sector in London's City and on Wall Street in New York is gradually recovering from the shock, and that the American government is backing away from the agreed sharper regulation of the financial sector, based on the motto: The government should stimulate, not regulate.

But tighter regulations for banks and hedge funds are a matter close to Europeans' hearts, especially for the Germans. Although they managed to achieve stricter global control of major banks and hedge funds at the most recent meeting of finance ministers, the Germans fear that the British and the Americans will quickly return to a more liberal course as soon as the banking crisis winds down.


It were American recipes that brought the world into the mess. That America now returns to it's old attitude of demanding these ways to be mandatory for all and abandoned former agreements for more market surveillance and regulation of finacial transactions, shows an alienating mixture of arrotgance and having learned nothing from the mistakes of the immediate past.

For Europe however, it is a clear wakeup-call that the honeymoon it had with it's exaggerated and much hyped fictional image of Obama - is over.

I am in total rejection of the American position, and I am fully supporting the European demand for better monitoring of the financial markets. America is responsible, therefore it is justified that it shoulders the greatest load of the consequences. And America has to change. A return to the old system of ultraliberal markets not being sufficiently regulated - is non-negotiable. We live in the time of the penultimate evidence for this system not functioning, nor being self-supporting. Living on ever-increasing tick - canot be the solution, but will increase the size of the final desaster.

If washington does not fall into line, I hope the Germans have the courage to let the whole conference blow up. But considering Merkel, I doubt it. and as far as our new economy ministre, von Guttenberg, is concerned, he still has to prove himself. I am not sure so far what to think of him. He appears to be very reasonable and fact-ori9ented - but if he can be as tough as needed remains to be seen - the Anglosaxons will not give up their desastrous model without raising a fight, and the many voices of the Eu and the rifts inside the EU could play into the hands of Washington.

Which would be the next global economic desaster to come.

[Rockstar]

For Obama, the answer is clear: The Europeans, especially the Germans, should do more to stimulate growth ...

Obama Fingers anyone? . http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-40537.html#backToArticle=612684


http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1460924,00.jpg

[SUBMAN1]

I think a better title to this thread would be:

America is from Earth, Europe is from Venus

There. Fixed it for ya since most European ideas are ass backwards to logic. An example for you:

It were American recipes that brought the world into the mess.
Typical Europeans. Always pointing the finger at anybody but themselves. We made you prosper and now you get ticked when you and we aren't prospering as much as before and you blame us? Are you saying you can't stand on your own two feet as a nation without America? That is exactly what you are saying. Pathetic. Your whole nation is simply nothing more than a monkey on Americas back.

This is you Europe:

http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2008/05/OMFG%20MONKEY%20NIPS2.JPG

Now you're worried that your fat is going to become a little leaner. Get used to it.

Subman out.

-S

[Thomen]

I think a better title to this thread would be:

America is from Earth, Europe is from Venus

There. Fixed it for ya since most European ideas are ass backwards to logic.

-S


Must be the American influence...

[SteamWake]

For Obama, the answer is clear: The Europeans, especially the Germans, should do more to stimulate growth ...

Obama Fingers anyone? . http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-40537.html#backToArticle=612684


http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1460924,00.jpg

Now where have i seen this before :06:

Could someone translate the box for me :88)

I cant blame any country or nation that is hesitant to follow the US's lead in this case.

[Skybird]

Last calculations I read two weeks ago showed the superior American economy model has burned at least 36 trillion dollars minimum in global wealth in the past 12 months so far.

The adequate headline therefore would be:

America is from casino planet, and the rest of the world, friend as well as enemy, is paying for it.


No wonder then that we are hesitent to cheer when Obama says: let's have a poker round again in the Golden Saloon.

[Thomen]

For Obama, the answer is clear: The Europeans, especially the Germans, should do more to stimulate growth ...

Obama Fingers anyone? . http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-40537.html#backToArticle=612684



Now where have i seen this before :06:

Could someone translate the box for me :88)

I cant blame any country or nation that is hesitant to follow the US's lead in this case.
Tender, juicy chicken breast filet pieces
Spiced, breaded and cooked with accompanying dill dip

[rubenandthejets]

Typical Europeans. Always pointing the finger at anybody but themselves. We made you prosper and now you get ticked when you and we aren't prospering as much as before and you blame us? Are you saying you can't stand on your own two feet as a nation without America? That is exactly what you are saying. Pathetic. Your whole nation is simply nothing more than a monkey on Americas back.

Now you're worried that your fat is going to become a little leaner. Get used to it.

Subman out.

-S
[/quote]

Translation ( for anyone interested)

"FOUR LEGS GOOD, TWO LEGS BAAAAD!"

[Biggles]

Typical Europeans. Always pointing the finger at anybody but themselves. We made you prosper and now you get ticked when you and we aren't prospering as much as before and you blame us? Are you saying you can't stand on your own two feet as a nation without America? That is exactly what you are saying. Pathetic. Your whole nation is simply nothing more than a monkey on Americas back.


Europe: Continent. Not a nation. Just wanted to point that out. Nothing else for me to add in this thread, business as usual here at the GT section...

[antikristuseke]

some silly nonsense.

Europe is not a nation. When posting complete ****, at least get the target of your bull**** right.
On another note, ONLY blaming the United States for the statre of the economy is not much better bull****.

Edit: Biggles beat me to it.

[baggygreen]

it would be interesting to guage the average German's response to Bazza now..

I recall that you guys absolutely loved him before, what about now that he's being critical of the way you're doing things?

How much has the level of adulation dropped?

[Rockstar]

Now where have i seen this before :06:


Hmmm, drudge or der speigel maybe? I don't know. :shucks:

[Sailor Steve]

Well, Skybird, it's your own fault for believing the hype in the first place.

As for this sudden 'Europe vs America' thing (I know it's not really sudden, but you make it look that way), what governments do and what people do are not always the same thing. Try to ignore Subman's childish post. I wish I could.

But you're wrong, and so is Obama, and so is everyone else. It's not Europes fault, nor is it America's. It's people's fault, greedy people first and last. But people make governments, and people say the wrong things, so pointing the finger at Obama and saying "he's just like the rest of you Americans" is just as jingoistic and self-serving as anything he, or anyone else, has said.

And Biggles, as much as I disagree with Subman, the fact is that Europe comes across as a bunch of states trying to act like a single nation; at least to me. But why don't we all try to blame each other some more, instead of actually talking about the problem and possible solutions.

[Dowly]

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT! :rock:

[antikristuseke]

*Punches Dowly*

[Dowly]

*Punches Dowly*

*punches himself just to make sure*

[Sea Demon]

But why don't we all try to blame each other some more, instead of actually talking about the problem and possible solutions.

Direct hit. And excellent point. I do think that the reason why many are just pushing around blame rather than searching for real tangible solutions is because the solution requires a sense of responsibility, and action that may be difficult for those who have difficulties in accepting personal responsibility to begin with. The real solution to these problems is also in direct opposition to the idealistic utopian outlook that many espouse in their own personal dreamworlds. As we see now from our own government....just confiscate more money and throw it at the problem with no accountability. Never has worked and never will.

[Rockstar]

and of course there is Techn'O'Bama

http://blip.tv/play/2izFizSKlCE

[SUBMAN1]

...Try to ignore Subman's childish post. I wish I could....

The only reason you can't ignore it by your own words is because what I type is the truth.

I'm sick of the blame America threads from Skybird because Europe is never wrong type of BS. On NPR today they spoke of how European banks were just as unregulated as American banks. They did the same thing. They delved into the greed just like Americans. French and German banks both pleaded for the AIG bailout because if AIG wasn't bailed out, they would fail too. I suggest you go listen to the report over on NPR.

But the point is, as I say above, what I write is the truth. Here are you greedy European banks that would fail is AIG were to go under:

Some of the biggest recipients of the AIG money were Goldman Sachs, at $12.9 billion, and three European banks — France's Societe Generale at $11.9 billion, Germany's Deutsche Bank at $11.8 billion, and Britain's Barclays PLC at $8.5 billion. Merrill Lynch, which also is undergoing federal scrutiny of its bonus plans, received $6.8 billion as of Dec. 31.

The program talks not only how they pleaded for the money to save themselves, but how they were just as unregulated as American banks.

-S

[Schroeder]

@ Sailor Steve
:up:

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Right, now we've all got that out of our systems, time to move on I think.

[Skybird]

Well, Skybird, it's your own fault for believing the hype in the first place.

You=Skybird, or You=the Germans/Europeans? I didn't hype him, and if you remember what I said about Obama, you will give me the point that I repeatedly said that europeans will face a tough wakeup with Obama sooner or later and that he is no altruistic president for europeans, but in the first and before anything else is: the American president, putting his country before anyone else.

As for this sudden 'Europe vs America' thing (I know it's not really sudden, but you make it look that way), what governments do and what people do are not always the same thing. Try to ignore Subman's childish post. I wish I could.

He is on my ignore-list - is that ignoring enough? :D If people just would not quote him... :D

But you're wrong, and so is Obama, and so is everyone else. It's not Europes fault, nor is it America's. It's people's fault, greedy people first and last. But people make governments, and people say the wrong things, so pointing the finger at Obama and saying "he's just like the rest of you Americans" is just as jingoistic and self-serving as anything he, or anyone else, has said.

The problem is that if you refuse to install a lock on your door, you have a greater chance that one of those greedy faulty people will take the invitation and get in to steal something while you are not there. So refusing to install a lock and calling locks on doors a prison-state is really no clever strategy, but an invitation for theft. and it becomes rightout stupid if you have already been robbed once while having lft the door unlocked and open.

Or don'T you lock your door when leaving the house? Bankers and capitalist zealots will not turn into better beings over night, just to give mankind a gift of love for thy next. They have been left to themselves, they had been allowed to regulate their market all alone, and look what mess they made of it. They took the opportunity to fill their bags beyond sanity, and straight killing the system.

now to demand that again they should not be enforced to play by minimal rules mandatory for all only means that one has nothing learned from it. we do not talk about a state-run economy. We do not talk about five-year plans. we talk about minimum control and rules that get enfor4ced with or agaimnst the acceptance of these people, that protect the communitx against their nihilistic egoism and them spelling desatser for the community just for the sake of their own selfishness. that is no state-ecoibomy. That is the rule of laws. That is self-defending reason. That is an absolute minimum of sanity.

The American claim to lead again the economic course, as noticed in the essay, I would reject no matter who is president. you make it sound as if I were over an Obama issue. I am not, the man just happens to be the current name on top of the list in the oval office, that is all.

But why don't we all try to blame each other some more, instead of actually talking about the problem and possible solutions.

Indeed, but the essay is pointing at exactly this having turned into a problem again: for the American government seem to have moved away from former agreement with making financial markets more transparent and making better supervision mandatory, but wants to talk about how to make others pay for America's sin of the past ten years, and leaving the system itself untouched and as liberal and "self-regulating" (hahaha...) as before, and how to make other states repeating the very same mistakes of excessive spending and accepting crippling states deficits and debts - to relativise their relative strength in economics and by that boosting America's own economic position: not by strengthening America, but making others accepting to weaken themselves. And that we should applaud?

I am since some time convinced that no leading politician in the US seriously thinks of those stellar debts of yours ever being payed back. I am convinced by now that America plans to infinitely live by the God-mode-cheat, the infinite-money-cheat that frees it from the need to economically and honestly produce the wealth it consumes, but keep on consuming beyond it's means and sucking up the wealth of other national economies and to keep on living on tick it never plans to pay back. While that sounds like a good way to win Sim City and build palaces and the super infrastructure, it nevertheless means that the gamer is cheating, and does not run a self-supporting economy. It also means that sooner or later he has reached a cidntion where the game cannot return to following the game rules, but depends on always cheating on and on and on.

So are you really surprised that we others are finally getting pissed by this constant demand to carry on like that? And that we become tired to serve as the drip your fiancnial system, a black hole without a bottom, hangs on? We accepted to take over the rules you run your system by - and see how badly it payed off for us. The shine was temporary only, the facade has broken down, many lose their jobs, and where before we were one hear before getting the first fully balöanced state budget ever, we have fallen into one of the highest new debts level taken in germany history. and we should accept to start running the same old business by the same old rules - your rules?

In the second half of 2010 I expect to see the economic trend turning for the better, not before, and that means that the oil prices will start skyrocketing again then at the latest , maybe even before (see the news on Russia and OPEC forming stronger ties), and all those fools who took the falling oil price in the past months (falling due to the crisis, not by itself!) as an argument to buy a fuel-killing car again, then will claim that they could not have known it and that the gas costs so much and that it kills them and oh and ah and hui and boah. Some days ago I posted a link in some thread about a warning by the ICF that said that the next economic crisis already is forming up at the horizon for this reason - and that it could become much worse than what we are in right now. Prepare for impact, they said, around 2013.

-----

And concerning Rubenandthejet's demand that we should blindly jump out of the window just because America does so and because the US"of"A saved Europe in WWII, I only say: WWII won you eventual friends. But you do not want friends - you want our thankfulness making us accepting to be your obedient vasalls. We refuse to be that. freinds that we are we tell you instead that you are acting stuopid and that you better change your mind - only bad friends help you to damage yourself and others, and only foolls think frfeindship means to headlessly damage themselves for the sake of the assumed friend'S selfishness.

And WWII - is a thing between your forefathers, and our forefathers. Stop claiming for yourself the sacrifices and deeds of others that you did not contribute to. Stop thinking the glory of the their deeds would be shared by you and you would benefit from it for free - you don't. Stop expecting a thankfulness that you personally do not deserve and have not personally earned. If I owe something to America, then I owe it to your grandfathers - not your current young and medium-aged generations for sure. I was not alive during the Hitler era, and you did not fight in the Battle of the Bulge nor did you work and produce in american factories in the era of the Marshal plan. WWII is nothing that connects or separates you and me personally. It simply plays no role between you and me. So stop taking it for your personal craving for admiration and obedience as if you have been one of the heroes of the past times back then. You are that - not.

[Bewolf]

Hmmm. Sky, though I usually agree with you (russia beeing an exception), that Obama will nurture american interests does not come as a big suprise. It was pretty clear from the start he would not be some kind of messiah, but simply an american more inclined to listen to reason and common sense, that's it. There was ample warnning about this in several newspaper, online editions and last but not least this very forum as well?

Can't expect an american to act within european interests. That is within our own responsebility and we better grow up to levels making supporting our own views a reality instead of constantly relying on others.

[Skybird]

Hmmm. Sky, though I usually agree with you (russia beeing an exception), that Obama will nurture american interests does not come as a big suprise. It was pretty clear from the start he would not be some kind of messiah, but simply an american more inclined to listen to reason and common sense, that's it. There was ample warnning about this in several newspaper, online editions and last but not least this very forum as well?

Can't expect an american to act within european interests. That is within our own responsebility and we better grow up to levels making supporting our own views a reality instead of constantly relying on others.
What'S up, Bewolf? While I said I think Obama will be better than Bush, I never hyped him. I accepoted that he is a formidable speaker and motivator, but I cautioned against him being seen as a messiah. He is not.

I repeated that in this thread, I have expressed a view like this in threads before. I am not surprisedabout him at all. but increasingly many europeans and many Germans come to realise that they allowed themselves to be carried away.

I saw Helmut Schmidt on Tv some weeks ago, and being asked about Obama, he expressed scepticism, saying that raising enthusiasm simply is not enoigh and does not necessarily make a good poltiician. He compared him to Kennedy in that Kennedy also raised much enthusiasm, but in practical terms plays a relatively limited, minor role in history only. Remember that I repeatedly said that Kennedy for me is a massively overestimated figure? I agree with Schmidt's sceptic realism regarding Obama. The best I expect from Oabama is a better tone between American and Europe, and him being able to motvate his people for changing themselves and their way of living. More I never expected from him. and even this maybe is already too much expected - people hate to change themselves, they prefer to change their neighbour. And the essay said something similiar like this, didn't it.

[Bewolf]

Hmmm. Sky, though I usually agree with you (russia beeing an exception), that Obama will nurture american interests does not come as a big suprise. It was pretty clear from the start he would not be some kind of messiah, but simply an american more inclined to listen to reason and common sense, that's it. There was ample warnning about this in several newspaper, online editions and last but not least this very forum as well?

Can't expect an american to act within european interests. That is within our own responsebility and we better grow up to levels making supporting our own views a reality instead of constantly relying on others. What'S up, Bewolf? While I said I think Obama will be better than Bush, I never hyped him. I accepoted that he is a formidable speaker and motivator, but I cautioned against him being seen as a messiah. He is not.

I repeated that in this thread, I have expressed a view like this in threads before. I am not surprisedabout him at all. but increasingly many europeans and many Germans come to realise that they allowed themselves to be carried away.

I saw Helmut Schmidt on Tv some weeks ago, and being asked about Obama, he expressed scepticism, saying that raising enthusiasm simply is not enoigh and does not necessarily make a good poltiician. He compared him to Kennedy in that Kennedy also raised much enthusiasm, but in practical terms plays a relatively limited, minor role in history only. Remember that I repeatedly said that Kennedy for me is a massively overestimated figure? I agree with Schmidt's sceptic realism regarding Obama. The best I expect from Oabama is a better tone between American and Europe, and him being able to motvate his people for changing themselves and their way of living. More I never expected from him. and even this maybe is already too much expected - people hate to change themselves, they prefer to change their neighbour. And the essay said something similiar like this, didn't it.
Kay, got your message wrong then. For a moment you made the impression of beeing furious about Obama not fullfilling the hopes of the naive put into him, emphasized by your extreme emotions put into this. No critique, just a bit of wondering on my part.

About Kennedy, I do not know. He shares the fate of a lot of overblown but nevertheless noteworthy phenomenons. First hype, then collaps of that to the opposite, and only then ppl usually come to a more balanced view. Kennedy, in the context of his time and in direct comparisons to his forerunners and follow ups, in my opinion was something special. But that is another topic and won't be evolving purely around politics, but the spirit and optimism he managed to infuse into nations at home and abroad.

Coming back to Obama, he is the POTUS, period. He acts within this environment, he uses the strengh of the US to push his interestes. That is all legit and ok. The strong never listens to the weak, expecting anything else is illusionary and asking for an altruism beeing extremly rare even with common people. He still is much better thenn Bush, and for me that is an improvement. Everything else is at ours leaders attitude to finally show some spine....or not. Can't ask of other nations what we outselves are not able to manage for whatever stupid political reasons.

[Skybird]

Kay, got your message wrong then. For a moment you made the impression of beeing furious about Obama not fullfilling the hopes of the naive put into him, emphasized by your extreme emotions put into this. No critique, just a bit of wondering on my part.

Maybe it is becasue that essay I linked got overdubbed by my own comment to it. Sailor Steve also seem to have gotten me wrong regarding my position of Obama. Some weeks ago, meeting with old contacs from university times, I received some Flak for not being as enthusiastic about Obama as Germans seem to be expected to be. :D

All in all Obama acts like I expected, spends a lot of money nobody really has (also as expected), had quite some bad luck with his choices of personnel after quickstarting very well with that, and is polite in tone but resolved in most causes. Basic differences between european and american views on many issues remain, of course. I recommend that europeans deal with him on the same terms: polite, but resolved. Just his announcement of wanting to negotiate with moderate Taleban I take queer. what is that, a moderate Taleban? That is a contradiction in itself. Like Steinmeier said he wants to talk with Taleban willing to not use violance. Another of these phrases that illustrate that the talking person does not know what he is talking about.

[CaptainHaplo]

The "blame America" crap is a bit over the top. In reality, there is plenty of blame to go around. However, the article posted has some very good points - and I will raise them here...

Isn't it odd that Germany - a country that is MUCH farther down the line in many ways than we are in its path to pure socialism, is opposing "more big government spending"? That alone should tell you something. The fact that Merkel (who reminds me alot of Thatcher in some ways actually) has the smarts and will to tell the US president NO at least shows that there is some sanity in the world.

Its also very telling that Obama is saying one thing at home (more oversight and regulation of the financial markets to "protect" the people) - yet being lukewarm on the idea of it when it comes to the global market. Typical political doublespeak - one side of the mouth saying one thing to one group, while the other side says the opposite. Of course, for the Obamabots out there - I just opened the door for bashing. Still - it is what it is.

Ultimately I have to agree with Merkel - wait and see what the results are - instead of the normal liberal attitude of throw taxpayer money at the problem. After all, we do see how well thats worked with the public educations system....

Speaking of however, I do have to give the President a kudos on one issue - and that was his stand and push for the removal of limits on charter schools, merit pay for good teachers, and getting bad ones out.

Still - one good - lots of bad.

As for him being "better" than Bush - I was and am no Bush fan - but its taking Obama (at the pace he is going) 4 years to run up a deficit equal to 8 years of Bush - counting the war. More than anything else - this keeps him from being "better".

[CaptainHaplo]

what is that, a moderate Taleban? That is a contradiction in itself. Like Steinmeier said he wants to talk with Taleban willing to not use violance. Another of these phrases that illustrate that the talking person does not know what he is talking about.

:yeah:

[TDK1044]

Not more boring nonsense featuring the differences between America and Europe. I'd rather watch a documentary on the history of Wombats.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Not more boring nonsense featuring the differences between America and Europe. I'd rather watch a documentary on the history of Wombats.

:haha:

[Bewolf]

The "blame America" crap is a bit over the top. In reality, there is plenty of blame to go around. However, the article posted has some very good points - and I will raise them here...

Isn't it odd that Germany - a country that is MUCH farther down the line in many ways than we are in its path to pure socialism, is opposing "more big government spending"? That alone should tell you something. The fact that Merkel (who reminds me alot of Thatcher in some ways actually) has the smarts and will to tell the US president NO at least shows that there is some sanity in the world.



That is called "common sense". Socialism has some very prfound reasons to have been implemtend and is not just some ideology utopia not working in reality. And just because countries embraced socialism to a certain extend that does not make them more stupid or less knowing about capitalism and how it works. I'd even go as far as to say that going the middle road and taking the best of all worlds makes one much more aware of the risks and advantages involved with each system and thus making better judgement in the whole then sticking to one ideology come whatever may by pure principle. Then again that could be labelled as ignorant arrogance, so ppl will have to judge themselvesl.

[Rockstar]

Not more boring nonsense featuring the differences between America and Europe. I'd rather watch a documentary on the history of Wombats.

http://www.wombatfoundation.com.au/Images/wombat_helpme_sml.gif THE WOMBAT FOUNDATION
http://www.wombatfoundation.com.au/



http://www.wombatfoundation.com.au/Images/willit3_cover.jpg


and of course everyone's all time favorite


http://www.wombatfoundation.com.au/Images/WillitGrowsUp_cover.gif



.

[Oberon]

http://www.toonhound.com/tingha-1.jpg

[Morts]

The only reason you can't ignore it by your own words is because what I type is the truth.



-S
you ? typing the truth ? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
and no, im not saying that what skybird posted is the truth either

[Biggles]

The only reason you can't ignore it by your own words is because what I type is the truth.



-S
you ? typing the truth ? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
and no, im not saying that what skybird posted is the truth either

Everything can be true if you believe in it:D It'll be true for you at least:O:

[Rockstar]

Everything can be true if you believe in it:D It'll be true for you at least:O:


You're a viking. Ya'all had your day and blew it, now take your viking ways and opinions and hit the road jack. :D


.

[Sailor Steve]

...Try to ignore Subman's childish post. I wish I could....

The only reason you can't ignore it by your own words is because what I type is the truth.
Truth or not, your initial post was childish and inflammatory. This one was better. Name-calling and picture-posting are fine in their place, but I don't think that place is a thread like this one.

[TDK1044]

There's never going to be a meeting of the minds on an issue like this. The best we can hope for is a little respect and a lot of tolerance between the two sides. :)

[Bewolf]

There's never going to be a meeting of the minds on an issue like this. The best we can hope for is a little respect and a lot of tolerance between the two sides. :)

Couldn't have said it better. That, however, requires some good will on both sides. After the Bush years, it's now the europeans having little joy in having a go with the US. Eventually, that will change again and hopefully things will settle down eventually and the real challenges of the future, mainly China, climate change and sparse ressources, will come to light. Fighting between the US and Europe over these will ultimately make both loose big time, to the gain of Asia.

[Sailor Steve]

When I was a boy there was a book and movie called The Ugly American. Others' perceptions of America and Americans varies with the way the United States acts in other countries' back yards. This is true of any country, but the US suffers from its very size and power. Foreign Aid is often paired with bullying tactics in an effort to get what we want in return, and genuine help is sometimes looked at suspiciously for the same reasons. This is of course true for any nation, but it gets amplified with the ability of the country in question to influence others.

People and nations want help, but they want it on their own terms. Other nations want to give that help, but they want to do it on their own terms. If those goals don't agree, then the giving nation is being a bully and the recieving nation is being an ingrate. This is complicated by the fact that sometimes both of those are actually true.

Americans are often accused of being "Americentric", and we turn right around and point out that the ones calling us that are just as locked into their own way of seeing things and don't understand us either. This wouldn't be a problem if we just left each other alone and didn't meddle, but on the other hand isolationism is a bad idea too.

The answer? As usual I don't know.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

My experiences with Americans has been universally positive, so I hold no preconceptions about them as such. However, like I am willing to admit as far as the UK is concerned, there are undeniably a vast amount of undesirable people thinking that they speak for the majority, and thus souring everyone's view of that culture as a whole.

And yes, even with Subman, sure, he might rub me the wrong way occassionally, as I'm sure I do him; but that sure wouldnt stop me buying him a cold one* if we ever met.

*aforementioned plan is not a verbal contract. Subject to ale prices and location. Terms and Conditions apply.

:D

[Biggles]

"Americentric"

Never heard that word before, I certainly haven't used it. But it's somewhat catchy eh?:D

Well just as KP, my experience with the americans are, as a whole, positive. I've been to the U.S so often that I've lost the count. What I'm having problems with are the few ones that think that all of Europe is one big nation, and that everyone hates america. This simply isn't true, so please...

[Skybird]

Couldn't have said it better. That, however, requires some good will on both sides. After the Bush years, it's now the europeans having little joy in having a go with the US. Eventually, that will change again and hopefully things will settle down eventually and the real challenges of the future, mainly China, climate change and sparse ressources, will come to light. Fighting between the US and Europe over these will ultimately make both loose big time, to the gain of Asia.
That is constructive, and but when it comes to money and power, everybody will be his own next. That's life, that's mankind. Has always been like that, is like that now, will always remain to be like that.

CaptHaplo,
Merkel and Thather couldn'T be more apart. Before she got elected, some people, me included, saw her that way, but then we realised that she is not. That the government is a boat without rudder and captain since three years is in parts due to the circumstance of the Great Coalition. But it also is Merkel. she had her shining moment at Heiligendamm, which was just fireworks. And then nothing, but plenty of failed reforms (partially sacked by the Constitutional Court) and worstening of situation in several fields. Definitely one of the weakest and unimpressive governments in German post-war history.

Next autumn there will be new elections. Then people have the choice between Steinmeier and Merkel. To me that is like the choice between plague and cholera. merkel being shy to act with power and endlessly manouvering, and stei9nmeier living by playacting as a mixture of proletarian-friend and grandfather, but his intentional slow way of talking cannot hide that he is talking a lot of nonsens and often simply ignores everything in relaity he does not like. Plus he increaisngly shos attitudes and styles of behavior like Schroeder did.

Germany has not enough good names anymore. and maybe that is both deserved and a consequence of our general cultural decline. Forget a solid and competent German leadership. Right now there are no names on our national political stage that I would even tolerate to form a german government. the two or three that comes to my mind - are in their eighties and nineties.

As a German radio commentator has put it early this year: "Deutschland vergreist. Anders ausgedrückt: Deutschland verblödet."

[CaptainHaplo]

Well Skybird,

Why don't you throw your hat in the ring? Its not easy or fun - but you have the strength of mind to do it. Remember - discussion is good, but sooner or later we must also push action to effect positive reaction. Besides, if you won then I could invite the entire subsim crew up for a multinational conference at the white house and your presence would give it even more "official standing" as the German Chancellor! :yeah:

[Skybird]

For half a year in my last year at school I was member in the youth organization of the CDU. I do not claim to have become an expert in it, but that 6 months was enough to see show the show gets run. an independant character like me would have no chnace to ever make it through the hierarchy. You need to have characteristic features that I do not have - thank God - in order to climb the ladder. You need to form a gang of followers, a private little party army, so to speak. In worse of all: you need to make it a profession. but I am fully opposed to the idea of politics being seen as a profession. And every person feeling the desire to go into plitics and bring it to ranks and powers - by that alone shows that he/she is very verylikely not suited for the responsibility. Becasue many politicians today see it as the tool to please their own interests. They refuse to see that they are just the tools to maintain the interest of the many. They reverse it all by 180°. That is true for the SPD and for the CDU names. That is true for the union leaders. that is true for church leaders.

Seen that way I could take your suggestions as an offense. Just knowing that yu did not mean it that way stops me from doing so! ;)

The system is screwed and infested with cancer from within. I think you can'T clean it anymore. And that'S why we all are screwed as well as long as we do not accept to wash it all away in one huge, violant washup, ike it occasionally hapepned in history - sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. the reasons why revolutions are such a bloody and brutal thing is - it doesn'T work any other way anymore.

[Schroeder]

Yup, that's how it goes here.
If you are not streamlined you won't get anywhere in one of our big parties.
A friend of mine has been in the city council of my city and says exactly what Skybird said.
It is not for the well-being of the city any more. If someone from the opposite party makes a great suggestion then you still can't support it because your own party HAS to be against it no matter how great the idea is.

Another disgusting thing is that everybody tries to suck up to higher people in the party to rise in the hierarchy sooner or later themselves.

Positions within the council were not given to people with competence but to people with the right party membership.:down:
And the worst is:
If you try to break out of this circle of filth you will hardly get any support. You will never rise within the party and sooner or later they might even ask you politely to leave it altogether.

[Bewolf]

That is constructive, and but when it comes to money and power, everybody will be his own next. That's life, that's mankind. Has always been like that, is like that now, will always remain to be like that.

CaptHaplo,
Merkel and Thather couldn'T be more apart. Before she got elected, some people, me included, saw her that way, but then we realised that she is not. That the government is a boat without rudder and captain since three years is in parts due to the circumstance of the Great Coalition. But it also is Merkel. she had her shining moment at Heiligendamm, which was just fireworks. And then nothing, but plenty of failed reforms (partially sacked by the Constitutional Court) and worstening of situation in several fields. Definitely one of the weakest and unimpressive governments in German post-war history.

Next autumn there will be new elections. Then people have the choice between Steinmeier and Merkel. To me that is like the choice between plague and cholera. merkel being shy to act with power and endlessly manouvering, and stei9nmeier living by playacting as a mixture of proletarian-friend and grandfather, but his intentional slow way of talking cannot hide that he is talking a lot of nonsens and often simply ignores everything in relaity he does not like. Plus he increaisngly shos attitudes and styles of behavior like Schroeder did.

Germany has not enough good names anymore. and maybe that is both deserved and a consequence of our general cultural decline. Forget a solid and competent German leadership. Right now there are no names on our national political stage that I would even tolerate to form a german government. the two or three that comes to my mind - are in their eighties and nineties.

As a German radio commentator has put it early this year: "Deutschland vergreist. Anders ausgedrückt: Deutschland verblödet."

Spot on. One reason why I stopped ging to elections for the last 2 years. Chosing the better of two evils works for a given time, but it becoming a long term affair then there is not much sense in going to vote. After all, the reasons there are elections is for you having the possibility to vote "for" something. But all the options now are to vote "against" parties. The parties themselves support that view. After all their politics are solely made of breaking short term created election promises and denouncing everything coming from the opposition.
I already thought about joining politics myself, but given these here are made at Stammtische and Hinterzimmer, this is not a real option for myself. I am not into this at all. I prefer up and honest to the front politics, something you can't find here. No wonder, given this democracy is designed to keep the people out. I am not going to support this system any longer.
If that means more radical parties come to power, well....all ppl enjoy the governments they deserve.

[heartc]

Well Skybird,

Why don't you throw your hat in the ring? Its not easy or fun - but you have the strength of mind to do it. Remember - discussion is good, but sooner or later we must also push action to effect positive reaction.

You must be crazy. There are already enough narcistic demagogues in politics.

[Skybird]

Spot on. One reason why I stopped ging to elections for the last 2 years. Chosing the better of two evils works for a given time, but it becoming a long term affair then there is not much sense in going to vote. After all, the reasons there are elections is for you having the possibility to vote "for" something. But all the options now are to vote "against" parties. The parties themselves support that view. After all their politics are solely made of breaking short term created election promises and denouncing everything coming from the opposition.
I already thought about joining politics myself, but given these here are made at Stammtische and Hinterzimmer, this is not a real option for myself. I am not into this at all. I prefer up and honest to the front politics, something you can't find here. No wonder, given this democracy is designed to keep the people out. I am not going to support this system any longer.
If that means more radical parties come to power, well....all ppl enjoy the governments they deserve.

I find it ironic to see Merkel, who grew up in the DDR and under the polit bureau they had, once claimed to enjoy the new democratic freedom - and uses it to help establish a very same type of politbureau in the EU, and taking checks and balances, democratic sharing of the people in decision and will forming, and the constitutional rights of sovereign parliaments away from Europe.

It has been some months since I first got the not seriously meant idea to compare the EU commission and it's intended uncontrolled and not democratically legitimised executive power (as intended by the dictate of Lisbon, and in parts already praticed) with the old polit bureaus in the eastern dictatorships that all claimed to be "by the people, in the name of the people". But the more I thought about it, the less I laughed, and I realised how striking the parrallels already are. Today I am not joking anymore when calling the top level of the EU a polit bureau.

[heartc]

It has been some months since I first got the not seriously meant idea to compare the EU commission and it's intended uncontrolled and not democratically legitimised executive power (as intended by the dictate of Lisbon, and in parts already praticed) with the old polit bureaus in the eastern dictatorships that all claimed to be "by the people, in the name of the people". But the more I thought about it, the less I laughed, and I realised how striking the parrallels already are. Today I am not joking anymore when calling the top level of the EU a polit bureau.

Faster, Skybird, Faster!

P.S.: Not worshipping "Der Spiegel" and state-sponsored television news helps.

[Bewolf]

I find it ironic to see Merkel, who grew up in the DDR and under the polit bureau they had, once claimed to enjoy the new democratic freedom - and uses it to help establish a very same type of politbureau in the EU, and taking checks and balances, democratic sharing of the people in decision and will forming, and the constitutional rights of sovereign parliaments away from Europe.

It has been some months since I first got the not seriously meant idea to compare the EU commission and it's intended uncontrolled and not democratically legitimised executive power (as intended by the dictate of Lisbon, and in parts already praticed) with the old polit bureaus in the eastern dictatorships that all claimed to be "by the people, in the name of the people". But the more I thought about it, the less I laughed, and I realised how striking the parrallels already are. Today I am not joking anymore when calling the top level of the EU a polit bureau.


Politbureaus have an agenda, though, as shaky the basis for that may be. What we have is....well, what do we have? A couple ppl floating somehwere up there without a real goal just for the principle of floating up there. How do you fight hot air?

[Skybird]

How do you fight hot air?
Inciting it by FAEs. :arrgh!:

[Bewolf]

Inciting it by FAEs. :arrgh!:


:yep::yeah:
with fuel prices as low as they are, there's not a better time right now


Unluckily I do not cosnider the whole system reformable. The ppl able to do that profit from these organisations too much to have any interest in rebuilding it, both on a national and a european level. I yet have to see a polititan actually even stating he'd like to make some changes, not to speak about folks acting at all.
And nobody is interested in revolutions or coups d'etat anymore. It simply does not fit into modern days political minds anymore, no matter within society or government.

That aside, can you imagine what the world would say if there was a revolution in Germany, overthrowing the democraticly elected government, as much as it may suck?

We'd be having NATO here in no time for international "oh my god they do it again!" paranoia.

Not that far fetched, however. Looking at what the government does I start to understand what the folks within the Weimar Republic must have felt and the amounts of frustration building up about the inability of their elected leaders. Shows were the wish for propper leadership came from. The cuts made to our rights within the last couple years in the name of fighting terrorism and tax evading don't seem to bother a lot of people after all, contrary what I used to think about this country when I was still in school.

[Skybird]

The opposite to freedom is - security. Think about it. It is true, both are almost antagonistic in man's reality.

On our decline: we erode from within. We weaken ourselves. We get sold away by those whom we trusted to lead us.

Our enemies, both in deed and thought, fight us. Our economists abuse us. Those who wish the fall of our freedoms and values for the sake of replacing them with their own ideas, work towards that goal with great patience, determination and single-mindedness. And some of the latter are respected figures in our middle. Our worst enemies claim to wear our own colours, and turn them against us.

We do not fight back, but we chose to fall back instead. We see no need for self-defence - we consume and believe in glory that once was, but is no more.

Others strike us. We party. We do not get betrayed so much - we allow us to get betrayed.

We seem to get what we deserve.

And I am in a gloomy mood, it seems. :shifty:

[Bewolf]

I am aware. The right balance needs to be found between the two.

Well, poetically put. Unluckily and as much as I would like to oppose, I fear you really are not that far off.

The problem is not evil intentions, however, but ignorance and convinience. No vision, no principles, no agenda, actually, nothing. Gaining power for powers sake instead of gaining power to make something happen is a credo I can't live with. Period. That is the problem with a political establishment that lacks the war exprience It's forerunners had as far as I can see it. As a result they just float from election to election. Parties are hollow bodies, their only reason for existance obviously self preservation.

Darn, Weimar calls again.

No basis for complaints as long one does not get active oneself. But I seriously hate the ways one has to go to become a polititian here.

[Skybird]

No basis for complaints as long one does not get active oneself. But I seriously hate the ways one has to go to become a polititian here.
Being a politician is no longer a vocation or duty being followed. It has turned into a regular job. People want to make a career by it, and in it. That'S why politicvians cannot imagine to ever get voted out of their job again, and are so creative in finding ways to fall the ladder upwards even if loosing elections. They do not serve. They think the political stage around them is for serving themselves. No modesty in their acting, therefore, no humbleness: upwards your career must go! No sense of fulfilling an overriding duty. Some of the old Prussian virtues gone, is really a loss. When Schmidt after his chancellorship, during which he vcertainly was not short of a certain cold-mouthed arrogance, was offered the Bundesverdienstkreuz - he rejected it, saying that fulfillment of duty deserves and needs no rewards - else it wouldn't have been a duty.

Career managers - that's what we have.

[Bewolf]

That is exactly the point I was going at. Having a democracy like ours, even when it was concieved to have the ppl out, was fine and dandy as long the folks running the show had a basis of exprience aquired during the 30ies and 40ies which gave them a good foundation to base their ideals and descisions upon. Adenauer, Schmidt, Brandt, tel me what you want about these folks, but they at least had a seriousness and a basic understanding of society and history that asked for respect. Nothing left of that nowadays, starting with the generation Kohl.
The current generation of politians have...nothing. As you already said, it's a career, no humbleness, no modesty, no sense for "serving" a country. Look at the likes of Koch, Stoiber, Steinbrück, Lafontaine..all politians bound for power and influence, one trying to top the other in presenting themselves and getting involved into affairs they have absolutely no place in, the recent ZDF scandal a perfect example. Especially the Ministerpräsidenten I'd shot one after the other, acting like feudal aristocracy in their respective Bundesländer.

And there is not a single means to change this but if they decide to do it themselves. Which won't happen. That is the tragedy.

[Skybird]

the status of the ministerpräsidenten is due to the demand after world war 2 to prevent a strong central government in germany. thats why their status and power in the improvised constitution, the Basic Law, has been boosted so much: to counter "too much" centralism. But the Basic Law was expected to be changed once reunification had taken place, turning it into a real, full-status constitution being called that: no Basic Law, but a constitution.

That so strong local chieftains would not like to agree to change the legal basis of their immense power and influence for selfish reasons, has been overseen, it seems. And that's why 20 years after reunification we still have no regular consiotution, but just a somewhat improvised placeholder. And it will stay like that. And that is why we will noever have such astrong and free-to-act government in the future like they can have in the US, England or France.

[Bewolf]

I am aware of all that. With special thanks to France in this regard, btw. Nevertheless, considering this basic law was formulated by the Ministerpräsidenten of the then existing Länder, these had their fair share in those troubles as well, rightly as you say, continuing to this very day.

Which actually only leaves three options.

1. The least likely option, things will stay as they are, and ppl will adapt. Unlikely to happen in the long run, as history proves.

2. The government will change itself. That is not that unlikely after all. Most "revolutions" in Germany since the 18 hundreds came from the top, starting with the prussian reforms within the napoleonic timeframe. 1848 and 1918 noteably exceptions.

3. The ppl will get their change, one way or another. What comes next is speclative, nowadays I have enough trust in my countrymen to once again chose democracy should the option arise, but one never knows. Right now democracy in Germany certainly shows a poor performance.