Man Reveals He Assisted Parents' Suicides 10 Years Ago

[SUBMAN1]

Since we are on medical topics today, what are people thoughts on assisted suicide?

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=6801446&page=1

The Netherlands has already shown that assisted suicide is a slippery slope that has led to non-voluntary, what is is called, euthanasia? Maybe it should be called murder...

-S

[jeremy8529]

Whats that I smell?? Is that bait? With a..... hook in it?! :o

[SUBMAN1]

Whats that I smell?? Is that bait? With a..... hook in it?! :oWhat makes you think that? I'm looking to see what people think about it.

-S

[Etienne]

Whats that I smell?? Is that bait? With a..... hook in it?! :o

Heh, it's Subman1 posting on subsim GT. It's not really trolling because, well, it's part of the landscape. Tehcnically speaking, he's just posting an article for discussion, but anyone who's been around these parts know that it will devolve into a no-hole-barred name calling fest, in which none of the party will ever come close to changing their mind. Here's an illustration:

:damn:

The thing is, once in a blue moon, the thread will turn into an interesting discussion of the subject matter. So we kind of deal with the chaff just in case. A lot of people have just given up on the political threads around here.

Of course, most of them will Godwin out, or involve muslims somehow. It's kind of like watching a gory car accident - A threadwreck, if you will.

Welcome to GT.

[A Very Super Market]

There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the GT forums.

[SUBMAN1]

Heh, it's Subman1 posting on subsim GT. It's not really trolling because, well, it's part of the landscape. Tehcnically speaking, he's just posting an article for discussion, but anyone who's been around these parts know that it will devolve into a no-hole-barred name calling fest, in which none of the party will ever come close to changing their mind. Here's an illustration:

:damn:

The thing is, once in a blue moon, the thread will turn into an interesting discussion of the subject matter. So we kind of deal with the chaff just in case. A lot of people have just given up on the political threads around here.

Of course, most of them will Godwin out, or involve muslims somehow. It's kind of like watching a gory car accident - A threadwreck, if you will.

Welcome to GT.
I rarely get into the things you suggest, so your point being? :06:

-S

[Etienne]

The Netherlands has already shown that assisted suicide is a slippery slope that has led to non-voluntary, what is is called, euthanasia? Maybe it should be called murder...

Euthanasia "refers to the practice of ending a life in a painless manner" (Wiki).

Murder "is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intent) (or malice aforethought (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_aforethought)), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide)." (Same)

Suicide "is the intentional taking of one's own life." (Same. I'm lazy.)

There can't be such a thing as non-voluntary assisted suicide. It becomes either euthanasia, if legal (And really, is anyone advocating that on humans, except for some far fetched fring group?) or manslaughter / murder, depending on the legal context.

I don't really see how allowing someone to end their own life can directly lead to SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!

It shouldn't be easy, and it shouldn't be taken lightly. But it should be an option. Able people are free to end their own life at any time, after all.

[SUBMAN1]

You forgot the non-voluntary part. That is why I put in there 'murder'.

An example - man is deaf dumb and blind. Is it murder or euthanasia here if we end his pathetic life non-voluntarily?

Anyway, I was reading where the the assisted suicide has morphed into non-voluntary euthanasia in the Netherlands. This is why I'm asking the question. It didn't start out in the Netherlands as euthanasia. It has morphed into it through the introduction of assisted suicide. Sounds like a major slippery slope to me. Say in 50 years that I can hardly walk? Is that going to happen to me? To my family? To my friends? To you? I want no part of this I would think.

-S

[Etienne]

You forgot the non-voluntary part. That is why I put in there 'murder'.


There can't be such a thing as non-voluntary assisted suicide. It becomes either euthanasia, if legal (And really, is anyone advocating that on humans, except for some far fetched fring group?) or manslaughter / murder, depending on the legal context.

And is this thread about non-voluntary euthanasia, or assisted suicide? Those are two entirely different things.

[SUBMAN1]

You forgot the non-voluntary part. That is why I put in there 'murder'.

There can't be such a thing as non-voluntary assisted suicide. It becomes either euthanasia, if legal (And really, is anyone advocating that on humans, except for some far fetched fring group?) or manslaughter / murder, depending on the legal context.
And is this thread about non-voluntary euthanasia, or assisted suicide? Those are two entirely different things.
No it is not two different things. Holland started out as assisted suicide. Now they also perform euthanasia because it has become accepted. Read my above post. That is the problem here. That is why I started the thread. I don't like the idea of assisted suicide, but one does not need to participate in it. Euthanasia has crossed another line that is ten times as big. We can only look to Europe for our answers because they are father along with morally objectionable things than we are, and I have yet to see a case where the US of A followed Europes lead in this department and the same pitfalls didn't happen here as it did there. Maybe you have seen one where this is not the case? If so, I'd say that is a rarity.

This is why the thread. i want to see peoples thoughts on the subject. Euthanasia is part of that subject. It is next in line after assisted suicide takes its grip. Especially with the cheapness of life of an individual these days.

-S

[Morts]

Heh, it's Subman1 posting on subsim GT. It's not really trolling because, well, it's part of the landscape. Tehcnically speaking, he's just posting an article for discussion, but anyone who's been around these parts know that it will devolve into a no-hole-barred name calling fest, in which none of the party will ever come close to changing their mind. Here's an illustration:

:damn:

The thing is, once in a blue moon, the thread will turn into an interesting discussion of the subject matter. So we kind of deal with the chaff just in case. A lot of people have just given up on the political threads around here.

Of course, most of them will Godwin out, or involve muslims somehow. It's kind of like watching a gory car accident - A threadwreck, if you will.

Welcome to GT.
I rarely get into the things you suggest, so your point being? :06:

-S
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:.....yeah..umm..right

[Sailor Steve]

On the downside, your reputation comes from things like the murder comment, or the "...are all idiots" in the title of your other thread. It shows an willingness to stoop to name-calling and dismissal as opposed to actual discussion. As the old saying goes, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it."

I do have some thoughts on the subject, but after that beginning I think I'll keep them to myself.

[Digital_Trucker]

On the downside, your reputation comes from things like the murder comment, or the "...are all idiots" in the title of your other thread. It shows an willingness to stoop to name-calling and dismissal as opposed to actual discussion. As the old saying goes, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it."

I do have some thoughts on the subject, but after that beginning I think I'll keep them to myself.
After that beginning, we need some real thoughts on the subject, Steve.

Personally, I think it is a slippery slope to start heading down. We saw the same with abortion. It started out as a method of stopping unwanted pregnancies from incest and rape and as a method of protecting the life of the mother in severe medical emergencies and has graduated into a "right" to be used as after the fact birth control.

Assisted suicide could very well morph into euthenasia here, as well. I'm not fond of the idea.

[Sailor Steve]

Okay. First, I disagree about abortion. Abortions have been with us as long as there have been people, and the criminalization of abortion, at least in the Western world, is a fairly recent phenomenon (I've been told that in some ancient societies abortion was punishable by death).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97may/abortion.htm

As for Euthenasia, I don't know. Assisted suicide is a thorny question in itself. Suicide is technically illegal, but only if you fail. Physicians assisting someone in ending a life that is already full of pain and suffering, and who will die soon anyway, is a tricky question. Is it a slippery slope?

I don't know.

[Digital_Trucker]

Interesting links about abortion, Steve, thanks. Perhaps I'm a bit too biased about the subject (like many of us who like to argue the subject) to be objective about it's origins and the reasons for its legalization and its current place in our society. I only called it as I saw it, albeit through jaded eyes.

Prudence and forethought regarding the legalization of any medical practice that hastens death is, IMO, necessary. After all, isn't the sole purpose of medicine to prolong life and alleviate suffering (sometimes opposing goals).

[Frame57]

I have seen Grandparents and a Parent and a few friends die in ICU's. OK. Depending on what is going on. Most attending physicians prescribe heavy doses of Morphine and Ativan or some other similar combination of drugs. At a certain dose they achieve what is called a "Brain/Body disconnect". This is so the person does not really know physically they are dying. They slip away usually in a very deep sleep. If this practice is not employed then the dying person fights for every last breath and the scenario is very difficult for them and attending family to observe. Litterally this is helping them die. So then what is the difference? I guess one is a controlled venue done by professionals at a cost of several thousand dollars.....:hmmm:

[SUBMAN1]

On the downside, your reputation comes from things like the murder comment, or the "...are all idiots" in the title of your other thread. It shows an willingness to stoop to name-calling and dismissal as opposed to actual discussion. As the old saying goes, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it."

I do have some thoughts on the subject, but after that beginning I think I'll keep them to myself.Forgive me for making it something dramatic to start the thread in most circumstances. It's the same tactic the media uses and i always get a good reaction! :D

If you have if you have issue with this, I think you should start a thread on the US Media. I just borrowed their ideas!:salute:

-S

[Platapus]

Suicide is technically illegal, but only if you fail.


Since 1994 there are no states where committing suicide is illegal. Assisted Suicide is, of course, another story entirely.

Some states still have laws about attempted suicide, but they are getting harder to prosecute which is why attempted suicides are usually placed under medical control vice penal control.

Laws making suicide illegal may seem silly, but they did have an important legal consideration.

The law in many states (not sure if all) excuses the commission of a lesser crime if it was committed in order to prevent a greater crime.

Throwing a rock at someone's head with the intent to cause injury is illegal (the exact crime depends on the jurisdiction and the situation).

Take a scenario where a person is holding a gun to a kid's head and threatening to kill the kid. You throw a rock at the person and stun them to where the weapon can be secured. Many times the courts will excuse your "crime" because you used force to prevent a much more serious crime of felony murder from being committed.

Scenario 2.

Suicide is illegal. A person is holding a gun to their own head and threatening to kill themselves. You throw a rock at the person and stun them to where the weapon can be secured. Many times the courts will excuse your "crime" because you used force to prevent a much more serious crime of suicide from being committed.

Now let's change the scenario to reflect suicide not being illegal.

A person is holding a gun to their own head and threatening to kill themselves. You throw a rock at the person and stun them to where the weapon can be secured. There was only one crime committed and you done did it. Your excuse of committing a crime (assault with a rock) to prevent someone from committing an act that is not illegal won't fly in courts. Even if you don't go to jail your problems may be just starting.

Assuming that the person was attempting to commit suicide due to having money problems, you have, unfortunately, solved their problem as they will most assuredly sue and have a good chance of winning.

This is why some states still have attempted suicide still on the books, but they are being challenged. If an act (suicide) is no longer illegal, how can an attempt to commit the act be illegal?

But like the abortion issue, suicide can be a very emotional issue that can strike at the core of a person's beliefs.

This is one reason why the various supreme courts are reluctant to take on this issue and why ADAs are often also reluctant to prosecute.

Being a suicide-rights person, I find the laws concerning suicide very interesting.

[Sailor Steve]

Since 1994 there are no states where committing suicide is illegal.
I did not know that. And that takes away one of my favorite 'jokes' - i.e. that "Suicide is not illegal. Trying to commit suicide and failing? Now that they'll get you for!"

Throwing a rock at someone's head with the intent to cause injury is illegal (the exact crime depends on the jurisdiction and the situation).

Take a scenario where a person is holding a gun to a kid's head and threatening to kill the kid. You throw a rock at the person and stun them to where the weapon can be secured. Many times the courts will excuse your "crime" because you used force to prevent a much more serious crime of felony murder from being committed.
Shooting the guy and killing him in that scenario is also not illegal - at least here in Utah.

I agree; your second scenario changes everything. Though in reality the only reason I would attempt to stop the person is because of the chance he may change his mind and shoot someone else instead.

Being a suicide-rights person, I find the laws concerning suicide very interesting.
I agree here as well. Of course in favor of the "slippery-slope" argument there is also the chance that the family might pull the plug and claim it was grandpa's wish, and who would know the difference? But that's one little possibility among many.

And euthenasia? We already have the Terry Schiavo case, which was not quite the same thing but arguably close.