The allies could of ended the U-boat war much earlier.

[Oneshot/Onekill]

http://www.uboat.net/technical/batteries.htm

It absolutely dumbfounds me that after reading this that the allies, both British and American bomber commands ignored this for 4 years!

I would love to hear your comments.:yeah:

[rubenandthejets]

Hindsight is 20-20.

Bomber Command had their hands full and like the article says "after the war" realised the missed opportunity.

It took the Schweinfurt ball bearing factory raid in 1943 to make the Germans realise the bottlneck in their whole war machine was this single plant, responsible for 80%+ of their production. A couple of follow up raids there would have stopped EVERYTHING by the end of 43.

Here is another missed opportunity for Bomber Command and the 8th Air Force, one they knew about but thought they'd destroyed.

[Oneshot/Onekill]

Hindsight is 20-20.

Bomber Command had their hands full and like the article says "after the war" realised the missed opportunity.

It took the Schweinfurt ball bearing factory raid in 1943 to make the Germans realise the bottlneck in their whole war machine was this single plant, responsible for 80%+ of their production. A couple of follow up raids there would have stopped EVERYTHING by the end of 43.

Here is another missed opportunity for Bomber Command and the 8th Air Force, one they knew about but thought they'd destroyed.

Hind sight or not, you'd have to believe that between the 8th Airforce, British bomber command, and the 9th tactical Airforce that they could of scaped a few bombers together?:hmmm:

[Torplexed]

The American and British bomber campaign against Germany really didn't start to hit it's stride until 1943-44 by which point the U-Boats were already in retreat. Some debate the effectiveness of the whole Allied aerial bombing campaign to this day, (German industrial production actually increased in 1944 despite it) although it did have the nice side effect of forcing the Luftwaffe to defend German factories instead of supporting the German army.

[Oneshot/Onekill]

I wholeheartily agree, and i do understand that the bombing campaighn didnt get to full speed until the middle to late part of the war. But after the way Churchhill saw the U-boat, and the fact that the factory was within range of early war bombers, you'd of thought ole Winston would of let the dogs out.:haha:

The amazing thing is that they(the allies) didnt even know of the factories existance untill 43!

[Torplexed]

The problem was early in the war there weren't enough bombers to make a difference. Due to the inaccuracy of strategic bombing it took vast fleets of bombers to do any appreciable damage to a target. It's estimated that only 10% of the bombs dropped by strategic bombers actually hit their intended target and that's depending on how liberally you define a hit. Indeed sometimes in post raid assessment the Germans could not decide which town (not the installation in the town) had been the intended target because the scattering of bomb craters was so wide. Sadly, there were no Allied laser guided missiles in WW2.

Ultimately strategic bombing become more about smashing the enemy will to resist and wholesale destruction than a pin-point effort to hit specific targets.

[A Very Super Market]

Furthermore, you would need to escort the bombers there, and with the limited numbers, and little long-ranged fighters you would be throwing away your bombers for a target they might not even hurt.

[bookworm_020]

It was the same story with many targets in germany. The lack of bombers, not knowing of bottlenecks in the german supply chain, and so on.

[irish1958]

The bomber commands felt that the indiscriminate bombing of "targets" would "reduce the morale" of the enemy's general population, in spite of the response of the British civilian population to the Blitz. Curtis LeMay especially thought so in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary; and to this day, so did the American (at least civilian) command in Iraq.
The only thing that appears to work is nuclear bombing and complete destruction of whole cities in an instant.

[Sailor Steve]

Hind sight or not, you'd have to believe that between the 8th Airforce, British bomber command, and the 9th tactical Airforce that they could of scaped a few bombers together?:hmmm:
"Hindsight" means they didn't know about it until they occupied the plant after the war. They can't destroy what they don't know about.

Oh, and FYI: In your title, it should be "Could Have", not "Could Of".

[irish1958]

SS
Are you sure you are not an English teacher?

[Sailor Steve]

LOL no, but with 50+ years of reading behind me I grind my teeth when I read things I think should be obvious. Not that they are obvious to everyone, just that I think so.:oops:

[mookiemookie]

Furthermore, you would need to escort the bombers there, and with the limited numbers, and little long-ranged fighters you would be throwing away your bombers for a target they might not even hurt.

Not to mention that by using your fighters as escorts in a major bombing campaign, you'd be leaving the homeland relatively undefended in the face of the Battle of Britain.

[Fincuan]

Not to mention that by using your fighters as escorts in a major bombing campaign, you'd be leaving the homeland relatively undefended in the face of the Battle of Britain.

Not to mention the main fighter types at the time of the Battle would have to turn back a little bit a after crossing the coast of mainland Europe

[Dread Knot]

Not well known in the history of WW2 was the uncanny ability of concrete industrial facilities to take a licking and keep on ticking. Probably the best example was the Dzerzhinsky Tractor Works in Stalingrad which despite being bombed by the Luftwaffe, shelled by artillery and sniped at kept producing tanks that moved unpainted off the production line and straight into the battle for Stalingrad. It didn't stop producing tanks until the battle moved into the factory itself.

[Ford Prefect]

you'd of thought ole Winston would of let the dogs out.

He was probably too busy having a go at the miners.

At any rate were all the factories even in the range of the wellington bombers which made up a large part of the bomber force in the early war? I know they could reach berlin at a push. Either way, sending those tired twin engined bombers over a well defended germany at that time would be suicide.

[ReallyDedPoet]

LOL no, but with 50+ years of reading behind me I grind my teeth when I read things I think should be obvious. Not that they are obvious to everyone, just that I thing so.:oops:
Good luck trying to correct this on the WWW :doh::doh:

just that I thing so:03:

[irish1958]

LOL no, but with 50+ years of reading behind me I grind my teeth when I read things I think should be obvious. Not that they are obvious to everyone, just that I thing so.:oops:

My pet peeve is the misuse of the past perfect. As Henry Higgens said "English....Why in America, they haven't used it in years."

[Sailor Steve]

just that I thing so:03:
:rotfl: Typos. They'll get you every time. At least I make an effort to catch them. Still not the same as lazy grammar.

My pet peeve is the misuse of the past perfect. As Henry Higgens said "English....Why in America, they haven't used it in years."
Never heard of him.

[irish1958]

My pet peeve is the misuse of the past perfect. As Henry Higgens said "English....Why in America, they haven't used it in years." Never heard of him.[/quote]


My Fair Lady, and before that Pygmalion by G. B. Shaw;
Or perhaps you mean I misspelled his name: you're right, it is Higgins.

[Jimbuna]

Rex Harrison....The rain in Spain
http://opinionsandexpressions.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/my_fair_lady.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

Sorry Jim, you missed it.

Or perhaps you mean I misspelled his name: you're right, it is Higgins.
Yep. We're all correcting each other correcting each other, and we're all making mistakes doing it.

And it's all my fault. Sorry about that, One Shot. Didn't mean to turn this into a hijack.

[Kapt Z]

Is it true that the RAF never bombed the u-boat pens during their construction? I know they tried after the bunkers were completed, but they must have known about them from the Resistance much earlier.

[Jimbuna]

Sorry Jim, you missed it.

Or perhaps you mean I misspelled his name: you're right, it is Higgins.
Yep. We're all correcting each other correcting each other, and we're all making mistakes doing it.

And it's all my fault. Sorry about that, One Shot. Didn't mean to turn this into a hijack.

No prob :DL

:doh:

[Ford Prefect]

Is it true that the RAF never bombed the u-boat pens during their construction? I know they tried after the bunkers were completed, but they must have known about them from the Resistance much earlier.


Did the resistance exist truely at that point? Also the group here which dealt with them SOE wasn't yet set up at that point was it?
Eitherway at that point it the war we were very much on the defensive and weren't in a position to put vital resources needed for the protection of the country into an offensive which would have cost us dearly in both men and machines. Just look at what happened later with the dam buster raid for instance. It was meant to cripple the industrial heart of germany, yet within weeks they were up and running again, but 617 squadron was decimated by that raid.

[Kapt Z]

Is it true that the RAF never bombed the u-boat pens during their construction? I know they tried after the bunkers were completed, but they must have known about them from the Resistance much earlier.


Did the resistance exist truely at that point? Also the group here which dealt with them SOE wasn't yet set up at that point was it?
Eitherway at that point it the war we were very much on the defensive and weren't in a position to put vital resources needed for the protection of the country into an offensive which would have cost us dearly in both men and machines. Just look at what happened later with the dam buster raid for instance. It was meant to cripple the industrial heart of germany, yet within weeks they were up and running again, but 617 squadron was decimated by that raid.

Valid points.

I really don't know when the Resistance was organized in earnest. I guess I just assumed it was there in some form right from the beginning.

When did the RAF start bombing Germany? I thought that was pretty early too. With the u-boats having such success at sea I would have thought any chance to sink them in port would have been worth the losses. Then again you guys did have your hands full with the Blitz around that time....:salute:

[Coyote88]

LOL no, but with 50+ years of reading behind me I grind my teeth when I read things I think should be obvious. Not that they are obvious to everyone, just that I thing so.:oops:
Good luck trying to correct this on the WWW :doh::doh:
Regrettably common in undergraduate papers, too. "Could have" contracts to "could've," misheard as "could of." It means someone hasn't been reading enough! :O:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

I don't know why the Brits didn't let the SOE or the SAS have a crack at taking down the factory? If they couldn't do it I know one person who could, a British citizen turned German spy, turned double agent codename: Agent Zigzaz (german codename Fritz or Fritzen).

[A Very Super Market]

It is a factory in the Ruhr valley, most important region in all of Germany for industrial production, and the most important factory in that region. Moreover, it isn't anywhere near the coast, so the SAS would have to be air-dropped, in years when escorts were far and few in between, and at quite a risk of being shot down, or at least alerting the entire garrison of a city against at best, 100 men.

[goggles]

as others have stated all the allied bombers did was drive the germans underground and force them to become more effcient with the materials they had

that being said...

allied bombers did indeed strangle germany the destruction of synthetic fuel facilities was a death blow to german military efforts the luftwaffe didnt have enough fuel to protect the factories, the heer had no fuel to shunt thier king tigers around and the u boats had no fuel to go on patrol

another nail in the coffin was the destruction of germanys railway infastructure it was being bombed faster than it could be repaired and rail was the primary means of transporting raw materials to the factorys causing crippling shortages

another valid point is the fact that germany did not moblize its women for the factories when the men left for war leaving them desprately short of skilled workers(the germans often sent engineers and scientists to the front rather put them to work in design and constuction) which lead to ever incresing dependance on slave labor and with an increasing number of workers being made homeless by bombing raids fewer and fewer showed up for work

the end result of fewer and less skilled workers greatly exagerated existing design flaws in late war designs the main reason late war tanks were so unreliable was partly due to sabotage by unwilling slave larborers and poor workmanship(cigarette butts jammed in oil galleys, teeth deliberately chipped off gears)

had germany taken the british or american approach to mass war production the war would have certainly dragged on longer and german victory would ahve been a possiblity

[A Very Super Market]

Oh... you kid, good sir.

A German victory after 1940 was impossible. Perhaps if Germany managed to invade Britain, it may have been within grasp, but not after Moscow. It would hardly have mattered if their industrial output was better, since the weight of three gigantic nations and their combined output would outmatch it completely.

[goggles]

i would be so bold as to say german victory was still a possiblity until later 1941

if it werent for the bumbling of a certian austrian corporal

a few critical mistakes...

halting guderians panzers at dunkerque when they should have thrown an all out land,air and naval assault at the stranded britsh expeditionary force

resorting to terror bombing london instead of concentrating on RAF installations just when they bombings were starting to make headway they should have pounded the RAF into ashs whilst it ws still on the ground

total lack of commitment to the north african campaign(argueably the biggest missed oportunity of the war) the british were critically weak here Hitler should have listened to Rommel and Raeder's urgings to gain full control of the medditerranen and force the british to abandon gibralter. if rommel(a brillant leader if therre ever was) was given the forces he required he could have easily rolled over british egypt, gained control of the suez and drove on into iraq and turkey thus threatening the oil fields of the caucus without so much as a declaration of war against russia.

Rommel really was that good and the British really were that weak in north africa such a campaign could have easily been undertaken had Hitler listened and given his full support instead of pursueing a foolish self destructive war of attrition against russia

[A Very Super Market]

I don't see how the German navy could have forced the British from gibraltar, seeing as how they would have to get through either Scapa or the channel to get there. The Italians obviously couldn't toss them out either.

Dunkirk was before Moscow, and even if they had destroyed the RAF, there would still be significant doubt on Sealion's success.

Also, the British certainly weren't "weak" in North Africa. If anything, it was lacklustre command that saw their defeats, but there eventually will be a point when Rommel would have lost too many units, as well as having an extended supply line for replacements.

[goggles]

they could force the british out of gibralter via constant bombing from bases in north africa same way the british forced gneisnau and friends out of france

seeing as rommel was almost constantly outnumbered in north africa by the british and yet he drove them back to the egyptian frontier with relative ease

yes supplys were a problem due to RN units based in malta but this could have been alliviated as well they should have taken malta in the same stroke as crete

Rommel himself in out of fustration of the few units he was receiving being thinned further due to loses even offered to take malta himself:rotfl:

malta was by no means an impentrable fortress the germans just never made a concentrated effort to take it instead of revaluating paratroops after crete they simply ceased these operations all togther thus denying themselves the means to take malta

[A Very Super Market]

With what North African air bases? Vichy France was not German that way... And the luftwaffe was hard-pressed in Britain and Russia. Gneisau and Scharnhorst were forced out at a time when Germany no longer had any semblance to air superiority

[goggles]

nonetheless with most of the mediterranean coast under german, italian or puppet state control the british postion in gibralter would be severly weakened

and if the germans really wanted they could simply strong arm the vichy in granting bases in north africa the vichy werent exactly in a postion to deny the germans


and you know your history well sir:arrgh!:


also i should point out that this scenario takes place with germany having not declared war on russia which was the logical thing to do stalin was much to paranoid to make the first move against germany

[A Very Super Market]

The problem with historical discussions is, dealing with the what-ifs always turn into almost absurd twists. Not invading Russia would mean that 4 army-groups could be unleashed on Britain, and Britain would just lose. But thinking for a moment, one realizes that you could argue that if the US had sent its entire army to Britain, it would be an even fight. Then, you would argue that the US could do that if Japan hadn't attacked. By then, one reaches the point where they are no longer arguing about possibilities, but outmatching each other's fantasies.

As for you, goggles, I have nothing against you or this discussion, but I don't believe I have the energy to continue it. Let us just end with the agreement that Hitler taking over on the strategic level spelled defeat for Germany.


How 'bout it?

[Torplexed]

I have to agree with Very Super Market. It becomes almost impossible to calculate where the war goes when a different path is taken because of all the variables that never came up. Based on their reluctance to fight to defend Czechoslovakia, Hitler didn't even think France and Britain would go to war over his invasion of Poland, so you can see the miscalculations and errors started from the very beginning. ;)

[goggles]

i heartily agree super market:arrgh!:

in conclusion the german military machine was excellent on the tatical level but a failure strategically due to the interference of Hitler

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

It is a factory in the Ruhr valley, most important region in all of Germany for industrial production, and the most important factory in that region. Moreover, it isn't anywhere near the coast, so the SAS would have to be air-dropped, in years when escorts were far and few in between, and at quite a risk of being shot down, or at least alerting the entire garrison of a city against at best, 100 men. Well the SAS wouldn't have to be parachuted into enemy territory, they could have been sent in by boat to the Dutch or Danish coast dressed in civilan clothes or German uniforms and make their way to the target zone as seperate units and then infultrate the local populis or garrison. Then after some time infultrate the target, sent charges, and exfultrate and then make their way to the coast to be picked up. Yeah I do realize it sound far fetched but who knows it could have worked, not a bad idea for a book though:hmmm: .

[RoaldLarsen]

It is a factory in the Ruhr valley, most important region in all of Germany for industrial production, and the most important factory in that region. Moreover, it isn't anywhere near the coast, so the SAS would have to be air-dropped, in years when escorts were far and few in between, and at quite a risk of being shot down, or at least alerting the entire garrison of a city against at best, 100 men. Well the SAS wouldn't have to be parachuted into enemy territory, they could have been sent in by boat to the Dutch or Danish coast dressed in civilan clothes or German uniforms and make their way to the target zone as seperate units and then infultrate the local populis or garrison. Then after some time infultrate the target, sent charges, and exfultrate and then make their way to the coast to be picked up. Yeah I do realize it sound far fetched but who knows it could have worked, not a bad idea for a book though:hmmm: .
Ah, romantic military fiction!

There are a few slight problems with the idea.

The SAS wasn't formed until late 1941, and they were a unit organised in North Africa for operation in North Africa. Originally, air drop was their method of deployment, and it did not work very well. Later they switched to primarily vehicle-based approaches. They eventually operated in Sicily, Italy and Northwest Europe, but always at the operational, not strategic level.

They did have a few German speakers in the unit, but not enough of the men were fluent for them to pass in a major cross-country trip like what would be required to attack the factory in question.

The quantity of explosives necessary to destroy the factory would require vehicle transport, and there was no way the SAS could have got a vehicle into Germany, or the explosives without a vechicle, before late 1944.

The only practical way to destroy the factory would be the same as was used for other strategic targets: bombing by aircraft. And has been pointed out, to do that, they would have to know where the factory was, and would have to have known that production was concentrated at the one location.

[harzfeld]

I don't see how the German navy could have forced the British from gibraltar, seeing as how they would have to get through either Scapa or the channel to get there. The Italians obviously couldn't toss them out either.


Spain was in middle of civil war & remain neutral, Hitler could have saw it as good opportunity to attack & take over instead of that Operation Barbarossa. Hitler's one of his typical saying, "We have to be ruthless." I guess he wasn't that cruel enough to conqueror Spain just to get Brits out of Gibraltar. Comparing to Operation Barbarossa, Spain should have be much easier, after all wasn't Spain more of leaning to Allied than Axis?

[A Very Super Market]

No, wrong. Spain was under Franco's rule right now, and he was also a fascist. Germany even lent his forces support during the civil war. I strongly suggest you patch up you history. Germany isn't a land full of soldiers, and Spain had an experienced army, with German weapons, no less. If they were to invade, the Germans would surely win eventually, but at what cost? The men needed to conquer Spain would be sorely missed in Russia, or North Africa, and resistance would spring up even more with less garrison.

[Lt.Fillipidis]

I agree with Very Super Market.
Opening more fronts when those you need to close are already too many
is an unacceptable mistake. And nor Hitler nor his officers were stupid.
They may have overestimated the soldiers' zeal towards the war but they knew their
strength in numbers nonetheless.

[Kapt Z]

I don't see how the German navy could have forced the British from gibraltar, seeing as how they would have to get through either Scapa or the channel to get there. The Italians obviously couldn't toss them out either.


Spain was in middle of civil war & remain neutral, Hitler could have saw it as good opportunity to attack & take over instead of that Operation Barbarossa. Hitler's one of his typical saying, "We have to be ruthless." I guess he wasn't that cruel enough to conqueror Spain just to get Brits out of Gibraltar. Comparing to Operation Barbarossa, Spain should have be much easier, after all wasn't Spain more of leaning to Allied than Axis?

I think Spain would have been a harder nut to crack than you think. If I were Hitler I would have concentrated on taking Malta and then supporting Rommel as much as possible to take Egypt and the canal. Then the Germans could have controlled the entire Med and pushed on into the oil fields of Arabia. Sure the British would have sortied from Gibraltar, but then their ships would have had to run the gauntlet of Axis airbases with no friendly ports left to seek shelter and repairs.

[Dread Knot]

Sooner or later Hitler was going to turn his sights on Russia whether England was subdued or not. He simply couldn't abide sharing the continent with a neighbor that powerful and that was going to grow even more powerful over time. If the Germans would have attacked Britain via the Mediterranean in 1941 and managed to knock them out of the Middle East, Russia's position would have been worse off, but not hopeless. She would still have all her territory, all her armies and more time to prepare. Additionally, it is possible that America would have been so frightened by Britain's possible collapse she would have sent as much military aide to Britain and Russia as possible. It should also be remembered that Stalin and his Generals were implementing many wide-ranging reforms during 1941 that would have borne fruit in 1942 and the Red Army would have displayed much more competence and skill than it managed to do when the Germans actually invaded. With these considerations in mind, it is likely that Russia would have been in a better position to resist the Germans in 1942 than 1941.

Also, a paranoid like Hitler probably would have been loathe to adopt a strategy that depended so much on a unreliable ally like Italy. Hitler was suspicious of everyone, even his allies. Had Rommel been able to cross the Suez and capture the oilfields intact (not likely) any resources from them would have had to depend on the Italian tanker fleet and merchant marine to cross the Mediterranean back to Europe. That basically put Italy in control of the oil spigot since there was no way for German cargo ships to enter the Med if Gibraltar was still in British hands.

[Lt.Fillipidis]

@ Dread Knot
When Hitler declared Italy as an allie nation, Mussolini was already in charge.
So he picked a nation that was already under a fascist government.
(It's worth noting that Greece too was under a fascist government that time
but Italy was stronger in numbers than Greece)
Besides than, Hitler had no intentions invading Greece because he considered her one of the greatest nations after Germany. He really admired ancient Hellenism.
It was Mussolini who wanted to invade Greece because she "won" the Ionian Islands
after her liberation in the 19th century and WW1. (Something like the 2 German Speaking provinces Hitler wanted to take from France. Instead in this case, the Ionian islands were greek nonetheless)
Anyway. As far as i know, Hitler's main intention was to banish communism and take back the 2 German speaking French provinces which Germany given to France in WW1.
The formed alliances, although, triggered a world war and since Hitler realised that, expanding in Middle East for oil was a must.

[goggles]

hehe other share my view but as AVSM pointed out a concentrated effort in north africa would not have been possible whilst invading russia at the same time the germany just didnt have the forces avaible

if germany did not attack russia then britain would have surely been pounded to ruin it would just be a matter of time (barring us intervention that is)

just as every other conquerer before him russia was hitler's undoing

[rubenandthejets]

I don't see how the German navy could have forced the British from gibraltar, seeing as how they would have to get through either Scapa or the channel to get there. The Italians obviously couldn't toss them out either.


Spain was in middle of civil war & remain neutral, Hitler could have saw it as good opportunity to attack & take over instead of that Operation Barbarossa. Hitler's one of his typical saying, "We have to be ruthless." I guess he wasn't that cruel enough to conqueror Spain just to get Brits out of Gibraltar. Comparing to Operation Barbarossa, Spain should have be much easier, after all wasn't Spain more of leaning to Allied than Axis?

I think Spain would have been a harder nut to crack than you think. If I were Hitler I would have concentrated on taking Malta and then supporting Rommel as much as possible to take Egypt and the canal. Then the Germans could have controlled the entire Med and pushed on into the oil fields of Arabia. Sure the British would have sortied from Gibraltar, but then their ships would have had to run the gauntlet of Axis airbases with no friendly ports left to seek shelter and repairs.

There's no way Hitler would have invaded Spain-he was expecting big things in return for his support of Franco during the civil war and he got a lot of minerals from there. Unfortunately Franco ripped him off and apart from some small concessions like restocking uboats and allowing "volunteers" to fight in Russia there wasn't anywhere near the payback Hitler was expecting. Still, why turn on another Fascist state?

[goggles]

triple post ftw:rotfl:

[rubenandthejets]

triple post ftw:rotfl:

Sorry about that-had a few screen locks on the net, thought it wasn't being posted, but I guess it was....cleaned it up a bit now....me big dumb bum

[irish1958]

triple post ftw:rotfl:
Sorry about that-had a few screen locks on the net, thought it wasn't being posted, but I guess it was....cleaned it up a bit now....me big dumb bum
Happens all the time to me, for some reason.

[Sailor Steve]

triple post ftw:rotfl:

Sorry about that-had a few screen locks on the net, thought it wasn't being posted, but I guess it was....cleaned it up a bit now....me big dumb bum
At least you know where the 'Delete' button is. I've seen multiple posts that say "Sorry, multiple post." :rotfl:

[Oneshot/Onekill]

Sorry i ever brought this topic up.:down:


I am use to using slang alot from my military service days...I didnt mean to offend any english professors.:know:

[Ford Prefect]

Sorry i ever brought this topic up.:down:


Why?:06:

[Sailor Steve]

I agree - why? Just because I was rude enough to point out a mistake doesn't mean it wasn't a good topic...or that I was right (I was, but that's not the point).:sunny:

[Oneshot/Onekill]

Sorry for the last post. I've not been myself for the last week or so. I was laid off from the railroad about 3 months ago and i am trying with everything i've got to find a way to pay for my family to go to DisneyWorld in Orlando Florida in may.

I already promised my kids back in October, so i have to come through. So far i paid for the airline tickets, now i'm scratching and clawing like hell to come up with the rest.

Anyway....i will find a way don't worry about that, we jarheads never say die!:salute:

Back on topic......I have read several of the afore mentioned post and Technically the allies DID have fighters in 1942-43 that had the range to escort bombers to the Ruhr industrial valley. The P38G Lightning(Forked tail devil by the Germans), and the P47C Thunderbolt were both used as the long range escorts early in the bombing campaign, and both had sufficent range to take the bombers to the German border.

They had to leave them a short didtance from where the battery factory was located later. The P51B with the upgraded Merlin engine did not arrive to take over escort duties untill 1943 and the D model untill 1944.

The P38 had excellent range, although it was not as effective at high altitudes as the P47 and 51. Mainly due to a very poor cockpit heater, pilots canopys would often frost over making visibilty difficult and tempatures very uncomfortable.

But they did have fighters that could escort the heavies into germany. Had the allies known about this factory early on...imagine how many U-boats would have been rusting in German ports by late 1943! Mind boggling.:hmmm:

[gmuno]

Not really rusting. Batteries weren't replenished, they remained on board until the sub was put out of service or a completely new battery-model was service-wide installed. Germany couldn't have put more subs into service and fill up up (at least in numbers) the losses.
To go over something that happened in the past is something that only makes sense when writing some "what-if"novell. True, bombing the battery-factory would have stalled the U-Boat-war... if Dunkirk wouldn't have been evacuated, the Brits wouldn't have had enough troops left to defend England and Africa together... if Göring would have accepted the losses and the attacs on the British airfield would have lasted two weeks longer, the RAF would have been permanently out of service and Seelöwe would have started... if the Japanese would have started the third wave at Pearl, they would have found the American carriers... if the German jet-programm wouldn't have been stopped early in the war, the German would have had in 1942 enough jet-bombers to turn the fortunes... and so on.

[Dread Knot]

According to the article you linked to, in addition to the Hagen plant, AFA built new battery plants near Hanover, Posen and Vienna, which began production in 1940, 1943 and 1944 respectably. Even if Allied bombers had been incredibly lucky and knocked out the Hagen plant on the first try (it usually took several bombing raids over time in WW2 to completely knock out an industrial target) the Germans were already dispersing battery production to meet increased demand and probably would have just accelerated the process.

[Oneshot/Onekill]

According to the article you linked to, in addition to the Hagen plant, AFA built new battery plants near Hanover, Posen and Vienna, which began production in 1940, 1943 and 1944 respectably. Even if Allied bombers had been incredibly lucky and knocked out the Hagen plant on the first try (it usually took several bombing raids in WW2 to completely knock out an industrial target) the Germans were already dispersing battery production and probably just would have accelerated the process.

I do agree with you completely, I'm just throwing out some possibilities.:yeah:

It really does amaze me though. With the kind of menace that the Atlantic U-boat war posed, and the incredible vast amount of resources in lives, and materials and technological advances that were needed for the allies to achieve victory in the Atlantic that there was not a more concerted effort to make attempts to slow down U-boat production such as the battery plant and other factories in the same manner that the allies made towards fighter and petrolium production. It would have cost alot less lives to send bombers than to devote 2 entire navies. One other ramafication would have been how far ASW tatics and Technology have been set back, specifically the U.S. Navy?

[Dread Knot]

It really does amaze me though. With the kind of menace that the Atlantic U-boat war posed, and the incredible vast amount of resources in lives, and materials and technological advances that were needed for the allies to achieve victory in the Atlantic that there was not a more concerted effort to make attempts to slow down U-boat production such as the battery plant and other factories in the same manner that the allies made towards fighter and petrolium production. It would have cost alot less lives to send bombers than to devote 2 entire navies. One other ramafication would have been how far ASW tatics and Technology have been set back, specifically the U.S. Navy?

The thing is the weapon to achieve this early knock-out blow didn't exist in 1940. The giant Allied bomber fleets didn't come into existence until later in the war after a lot of research and development and gearing up for production. Britain alone in 1940 couldn't have sustained a bomber offensive large enough to knock out all U-Boat production. The U-Boat war also played to the Allies greatest strength as both the US and British navies were among the finest and largest in the world. Germany's greatest strength was always in her land army.

[JHuschke]

They probably thought, even though without attacking the plants they would still win the war..the British and Americans didn't care how many men they lost or would lose, unless it was their whole army. Might as well "head for Berlin" as they planned to do.

[Jimbuna]

They probably thought, even though without attacking the plants they would still win the war..the British and Americans didn't care how many men they lost or would lose, unless it was their whole army. Might as well "head for Berlin" as they planned to do.

I can't agree with you here.....the primary consideration was always the fear of losing large numbers of servicemen and the resultant negative impact on opinions back home.

The best example is probably the estimated million+ that could have been sacrificed had the Allies invaded the Japanese mainland, hence the use of the nuclear bomb.

[Dread Knot]

They probably thought, even though without attacking the plants they would still win the war..the British and Americans didn't care how many men they lost or would lose, unless it was their whole army. Might as well "head for Berlin" as they planned to do.

Sounds more like the Soviet strategy to me. The reason the Allies delayed D-Day until 1944 was it was thought it would be too costly to mount beforehand. More landing craft and men, experience and planning were needed to make it succeed.

[rubenandthejets]

Soviet strategy was to gobble up as much of Eastern Europe and install puppet governments.
Every time I've war gamed the Ostfront the Russian juggernaut punched straight into the north German plain, ignoring Hungary and Rumania and any islands of resistance and takes out Berlin in mid-late 1944.