The German navy, German lawyers and African priates

[Skybird]

German news reports that a group of Somali pirates that had been captured at sea by the German navy and currently are held prisoners on a german warship, will not be handed over to Kenia, as was planned, but now will be charged by state attorneys in - Hamburg. For that, German judges have to travel to Africa, take the prisoners over, return with them to Germany, put them into custody - and that's when they can ask for asylum in order to stay in Germany.

For the public, media then soon will rise an impression of them being no attackers, but poor victims that must be integrated.

Free ticket for paradise, and german idiots are infantile and not too naive to actively assist in this.

Meanwhile, the sailors aboard the german warships at Somalia suffer a reported blow to motivation and morale. The back and forth over what to do with the captured attackers, and now giving these pirates a first class reward, while at the same time showing the navy that obviously one had not had any plans of using the navy effectively, but only as an unplanned alibi show to impress the allies (something many German military expeditions suffer of), is taking it's toll. Many aboard the ship are reported to question the meaning of their mission.

Once again, political dilletantism at it's German finest. And at the cost of those having to carry out the decisions. Political failures like this make me feel so happy that I did not embark on a career in the military, as I thought about for a while, over 24 years ago.

I think we would be better off with a cabinet of Sony's robodogs.

[Tribesman]

The double edge of rights.
As Germany among others has human rights legisltion they cannot hand over a prisoner to somewhere where they may be tortured or killed . So a prisoner can apply for asylum to prevent being turned over to that country .
But since Germany has signed the treaty that outlaws piracy it can try them and throw them in jail itself or hand them to any other country for trial as long as that country accepts them and doesn't do torture or executions .

For the public, media then soon will rise an impression of them being no attackers, but poor victims that must be integrated.

Yeah right :rotfl:
I suppose thats like the public and media in Britian not flipping their lid when the Afghani hijackers couldn't be sent back to Afghanistan , just like they didn't flip their lid when the hijackers were freed after 2 only years because the judge in the original trial had made a big screw up .
What a strange perception of the public and media you have , it isn't the public or media that are the problem here , its the politicians who make laws without thinking them through .

[Freiwillige]

Hmmm. German government putting others before themselves? Yup that sounds about right. Dont dare protest or you may be deemed a National Socialist. I feel sorry for the average German. Yay liberalism\Communism!

[Tribesman]

Hmmm. German government putting others before themselves?
You mean by sending ships to some hell hole and enforcing international law to protect international trade ?

[Freiwillige]

No, I mean that after capturing those criminals; Germany will probably give them residance and citizenship.

[Tribesman]

Ah , so because a German warship is considered German soveriegn territory it has to have German laws...thats a bit of a bugger isn't it .
There is a solution though , re-flag the vessels . You could go local and put a Somali flag on them and when you capture the pirates hand them back to their bosses , or perhaps put a Yemeni flag on it and hand the pirates to their paymasters ....
or for the fiscally conservative you could put up a Liberian flag and pay the German seaman crap wages :rotfl:

[Jimbuna]

Ah , so because a German warship is considered German soveriegn territory it has to have German laws...thats a bit of a bugger isn't it .
There is a solution though , re-flag the vessels . You could go local and put a Somali flag on them and when you capture the pirates hand them back to their bosses , or perhaps put a Yemeni flag on it and hand the pirates to their paymasters ....
or for the fiscally conservative you could put up a Liberian flag and pay the German seaman crap wages :rotfl:

LOL

Save all the bother....teke them 100+ miles offshore and throw them overboard. They're of absolutely no worth to anyone....bloody oxygen thieves.

[Kapt Z]

Ah , so because a German warship is considered German soveriegn territory it has to have German laws...thats a bit of a bugger isn't it .
There is a solution though , re-flag the vessels . You could go local and put a Somali flag on them and when you capture the pirates hand them back to their bosses , or perhaps put a Yemeni flag on it and hand the pirates to their paymasters ....
or for the fiscally conservative you could put up a Liberian flag and pay the German seaman crap wages :rotfl:

LOL

Save all the bother....teke them 100+ miles offshore and throw them overboard. They're of absolutely no worth to anyone....bloody oxygen thieves.

Is there even a international agreed upon 'sentence' for pirates these days....?????

I think in the 'old' days they pretty much got their necks stretched on the spot.:hmmm:

[fatty]

The US and the UK have struck an agreement with Kenya to send some captured pirates there for trial. Kenya was reluctant to sign on to this because they fear that their courts will become swamped with cases. This agreement is very new though, only a month or two old, and to my knowledge no cases have yet to be tried let alone reach a verdict.

It is a really important dilemma though, Kapt Z, and a good question to ask. Navy captains are not in the business of judging evidence, reaching verdicts, and carrying out sentencing though, so take the arguments for plank-walking and hanging as a little bit facetious. The other end of the spectrum, is the absolute embarrassment from the Danes last year; unwilling to hand over suspected pirates to a regional power through fears of torture or execution, and unwilling to bring the suspected pirates back to Denmark for trial, the Danes actually just dropped them off on a Somali beach in the middle of the night and let them go upon their merry way.

[Jimbuna]

Nothing much changed there then :oops:

[Frame57]

I say give the Pirates a break. After all don't we love pirates? We name sports teams after them, make movies about them and rides at theme parks. Who know in a hundred years or so maybe Disney will make a new ride patterned after the Pirates of the somali coast...:arrgh!:

[Dan D]

In the news it was said that the department of public prosecution in Hamburg has decided that the pirates won't be prosecuted in Germany but in Kenya.
This is the best way to get things off your desk btw. It saves you time and work.
You find out that someone else has the competence.

[NeonSamurai]

There is an easier solution to this, take no prisoners and make em walk the plank arr:arrgh!:

[SUBMAN1]

And Germany criticizes the US and its methods? Give me a break!

As they say, its easy to point fingers to direct attention away from ones own failings.

-S

[Tribesman]

And Germany criticizes the US and its methods? Give me a break!

Yes criticise the US and its methods , because its countries with torture and dodgy death penalties that are the reason for the legislation that prevents criminals being handed over.:yeah:
Is that the break you wanted ?:rotfl:

[Skybird]

In the news it was said that the department of public prosecution in Hamburg has decided that the pirates won't be prosecuted in Germany but in Kenya.
Yes, that seem to be the latest twist. However, Hamburg has not decided not to prosecute themn, but for some mysterious reason they now say the handing over to Kenya cannot be stopped anymore. That means they want to sue them, but came too late. Whatever kind of "timetables" or time pressure they are under.

The whole thing is as clear as muddy water. It's also set to become just another object of exchanges between political parties - we have several elections this year, including Bundestag elections. While the great coalition was three years of reform failures, badly prepared laws that are partially already sacked by the High Court, and stagnation, do expect even less of the German "government" this year.

[Schroeder]

We have a government?:o

To me it seemed as if they had all agreed on not duing their jobs anymore until after the election.

[Freiwillige]

Ah the Good ol' USA. Yes we have the death penalty and im damn proud of it! If it were up to me more people would be put to death and much sooner. No more of this 40 year waiting period with 300 appeals. I would cut it down to 5 years max!
Europe is so much more civilised for not putting criminals to death? Tell me what is so civilized about letting those who are uncivilized go without a proper punishment?

And for the torture bit, I agree and cannot defend our case on that issue as I am all against it and its against the American way. Those who are guilty of ordering this madness should be tried and maybe even get the death penelty!

Now back to the German issue. Continue please.

[Frame57]

I do not get this "torture" bit. I do not see the scumbags missing limbs, or having their eyes poked out, or even missing fingernails for that matter. What? Are talking about waterboarding again? Big friggin deal...Yes it is scary but that is what it is designed to do. Information sometimes has to be extracted and I am all for it 100%.

[Tribesman]

I do not get this "torture" bit.
Well thats simple , if a method is called torture by one country if another country does it then when it does it itself it becomes a torturing country and as such would by barred from recieving prisoner transfers under the piece of paper that says you can't transfer prisoners to dodgy regimes who do torture .

If it were up to me more people would be put to death and much sooner. No more of this 40 year waiting period with 300 appeals. I would cut it down to 5 years max!

Yep that makes sense ...if you don't think .

Now back to the German issue. Continue please.
OK the issue , handing over suspects to someone else or putting them on trial yourself .
So since Subman says .
And Germany criticizes the US and its methods? Give me a break!

Germany can either try the suspects themselves and punish them under the law and give them protections that they get under the law , or hand them to someone else where they can get the same process .
Now I can understand Submans criticism of Germany ...if it wasn't so easy to grab an example of a wanted murderer being detained and charged with a minor crime and then being given refuge because his government doesn't want to hand the suspect to someone else to face murder charges because they consider the regimes in question dodgy when it comes to fair trials and application of the law.

[Schroeder]

Ah the Good ol' USA. Yes we have the death penalty and im damn proud of it!
Are you also proud of all those innocents who were executed because judges and juries made mistakes?:hmm2:

But we are derailing this thread (damn it I became quite good at that during the last few months...:nope:).

[Skybird]

Killing somebody is sometimes a necessity. But it never should be a reason for pride, or enjoyment. When you kill, do it with calm emotions and untroubled mind, to not needlessly stirr your karma, mind and soul. Determination: yes. Display of pride or laughter, fear or hate: no. A person behaving like the latter, just shows how blind he/she is.

[Freiwillige]

Ah the Good ol' USA. Yes we have the death penalty and im damn proud of it!
Are you also proud of all those innocents who were executed because judges and juries made mistakes?:hmm2:

But we are derailing this thread (damn it I became quite good at that during the last few months...:nope:).

How many is that? Unfortunately it does happen, But is it enough to justify stoping the practice? Many American states do not practice the death penalty and a few do. I beleive that if something is proved beyond reasonable doubt than the death penalty should apply and that very day! It is not the Death penalty system that should be looked at but the Justice system in general where there is little anymore in the way of justice.

It costs alot of money to house an inmate that is deemed lost to society. People die, It happens all the time. Lets help it happen to those who deserve it.:DL

[Schroeder]

I think a single innocent executed is already one to much for my taste to be able to support that. To make a decision about life or death you have to be absolutely sure beyond any doubts.
If a mistake is done here, there is no way of correcting it. There HAVE been innocents who got executed and some years later it was found out that they were not gulty of the crimes they were sentenced for. To me this makes it impossible to support death penalty.
You think it is ok to sacrifice a few innocents just to take revenge on murderers?
Isn't that somehow murder too?

[Skybird]

Statistics show a troubling high ammount of flawed sentences last time I checked the, maybe 4 years ago or so. Many people get killed while being innocent, or being guilty but not in the way and to the scale for which they have been sentenced.

Statistics also leave extremely high doubts on death penalty having a significant, measurable deterrent effect. That simply is a myth.

Flawed sentences and mistakes most often take place and slip through, although the people believe that something has been proven beyond doubt. Of course it is like that! Else the sentence for execution would indeed be intentional, preplanned murder, for the death penalty would be given althiugh knowing that there have been mistakes. So, arguing that the death penalty is acceptable if something has been proven beyond doubt, is no argument in itself, but circular logic: the subject is guilty because it gets sentenced. If it is innocent, why is it sentenced, then? That is a dog running in circles chasing it's tail: running like this gets it nowhere, no matter how fast and how long it runs.

[Tribesman]

Free wlilly.you shoot yourself in the foot with your arguement

But we are derailing this thread
Be fair , when someone writes stuff in a topic it doesn't matter if it goes this way or t'other..as long as it is not adressed.
And to be really fair you have to take on the topic in a wider view