A new musthave goodie for our american weapon-fetishists

[Skybird]

You dont have to wait for later
heres a new eliminator.
Ask your local weapon trader
for the Superperforator...

:hmmm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G0RIbxGxQc

:haha:

From a German comedy called "Der Schuh des Manitu". It's a persiflage on the german-made Karl-May-westerns made in the 60s and 70s, which were quite popular over here at that time.

[Skybird]

From the makers of that movie:

"80% of all jesters are going to the wrong costume ball":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zr4OfQyVlM&feature=related

"Little Hitler" (a persiflage of a long-running TV-commercial for candies, given from gandpa to his grandhcild):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spE1eR6QdI0&feature=related

Terminator (a persiflage of, well, hm, "Terminator" the movie was called, I think):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq6gxbUT4gc&feature=related

[UnderseaLcpl]

I laughed a litte, but I'm not totally sure I get the joke. I'm not terribly familiar with those shows, and I am decidedly unfamiliar with the popular perception of them in Germany.

Nonetheless, I may begin referring to my 39' Walther P38 as "the Superperforator":DL

[UnderseaLcpl]

One more thing; Would I be amiss in assuming that the Terminator spoof is a gun-control joke?

[Thomen]

I laughed a litte, but I'm not totally sure I get the joke. I'm not terribly familiar with those shows, and I am decidedly unfamiliar with the popular perception of them in Germany.

Nonetheless, I may begin referring to my 39' Walther P38 as "the Superperforator":DL P-38? Jesus.. we used to say about those: 8 warning shots, 1 well aimed throw. :D

[Skybird]

One more thing; Would I be amiss in assuming that the Terminator spoof is a gun-control joke?
It definitely was nothing about gun control laws. ;) It just was comedy, depicting the Terminator as a total idiot who can't separate bread or shoes from an pump gun. It's also making fun of Arnie's accent - that region-typical Alpinistic noise plays a role in many of Bully's sketches.:D I think he is Austrian too, but I'm not sure.

[UnderseaLcpl]

One more thing; Would I be amiss in assuming that the Terminator spoof is a gun-control joke?
It definitely was nothing about gun control laws. ;) It just was comedy, depicting the Terminator as a total idiot who can't separate bread or shoes from an pump gun. It's also making fun of Arnie's accent - that region-typical Alpinistic noise plays a role in many of Bully's sketches.:D I think he is Austrian too, but I'm not sure.

Too bad, it would have been funnier as a joke promoting gun-control:DL

P-38? Jesus.. we just to say about those: 8 warning shots, 1 well aimed throw. :D

I've heard the same joke about many other pistols.:rotfl:
Honestly, though, is it considered to be inaccurate? I've never had any problems.

[FIREWALL]

That's about as "gay" as it gets. :har:

[antikristuseke]

I laughed a litte, but I'm not totally sure I get the joke. I'm not terribly familiar with those shows, and I am decidedly unfamiliar with the popular perception of them in Germany.

Nonetheless, I may begin referring to my 39' Walther P38 as "the Superperforator":DL P-38? Jesus.. we used to say about those: 8 warning shots, 1 well aimed throw. :D


Heh, here that is said about Makarovs.

[Schroeder]

P-38? Jesus.. we used to say about those: 8 warning shots, 1 well aimed throw. :D
Well, if you take the clip out off it you already have two throws.:D

[antikristuseke]

Magazine, it is a magazine, not a clip. Learn the bloody difference!
Sorry, it's one of my pet peewees

[Jimbuna]

I enjoyed the KKK one :DL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJkHykGRXrw

[CaptainHaplo]

I own a 9mm Makarov, and mine is actually highly accurate. The balance is superb, which contributes greatly for a shooter like me. Of all the handguns I own, she is my favorite. Granted, that may be due to me learning to double tap using that particular firearm, but for if I fire, my preference is for the Makarov.

Your not the first person I have heard say they are innacurate, and I have yet to figure that out. If I take mine to a range, I can get solid shot groups out to 50 yards.

[antikristuseke]

actualy the weapon itself isnt inaccurate, but the factory sights are horrible. Thats been my experience with them anyway.

[Schroeder]

Magazine, it is a magazine, not a clip. Learn the bloody difference!
Sorry, it's one of my pet peewees Sorry that I was decieved by wrong information. I will never dare to call it a clip again. I will now dig out my old video games, reinstall them to find out which of them gave me the wrong information, that this things are called clips and will write a letter to the publisher in which I demand my money back.:shifty:

[August]

Magazine, it is a magazine, not a clip. Learn the bloody difference!
Sorry, it's one of my pet peewees Sorry that I was decieved by wrong information. I will never dare to call it a clip again. I will now dig out my old video games, reinstall them to find out which of them gave me the wrong information, that this things are called clips and will write a letter to the publisher in which I demand my money back.:shifty:

Wow i've never heard anyone claim to get their knowledge from a video game before. :DL

[antikristuseke]

Magazine, it is a magazine, not a clip. Learn the bloody difference!
Sorry, it's one of my pet peewees Sorry that I was decieved by wrong information. I will never dare to call it a clip again. I will now dig out my old video games, reinstall them to find out which of them gave me the wrong information, that this things are called clips and will write a letter to the publisher in which I demand my money back.:shifty:

Let this be a lesson to you. Video games, much like movies, are not good sources of information. Most of what they get right is accidental.

[Digital_Trucker]

Magazine, it is a magazine, not a clip. Learn the bloody difference!
Sorry, it's one of my pet peewees

You better tell Webster's dictionary the difference, too.:D

[August]

Magazine, it is a magazine, not a clip. Learn the bloody difference!
Sorry, it's one of my pet peewees
You better tell Webster's dictionary the difference, too.:D

Now now, Websters dictionary is a "living document". :D

[Schroeder]

Wow i've never heard anyone claim to get their knowledge from a video game before. :DL
I usually try to play my games in English. By doing so I kept in touch with the language in the time before I started to haunt English speaking forums, and I learned plenty new words too (not the ones they teach you in school). :yep:

@Antiwhatever

You don't find you choice of words rather arrogant? Someone makes a mistake and you are all over him. So far I had a different view of you.
:nope:

[antikristuseke]

Wow i've never heard anyone claim to get their knowledge from a video game before. :DL
I usually try to play my games in English. By doing so I kept in touch with the language in the time before I started to haunt English speaking forums, and I learned plenty new words too (not the ones they teach you in school). :yep:

@Antiwhatever

You don't find you choice of words rather arrogant? Someone makes a mistake and you are all over him. So far I had a different view of you.
:nope:

That was not my intention, but reaing it now, i sohuld have peperd in some smileys to make sure of that. I was trying at show my minor irritation of the misuse of some words in a humorous way and seem to have failed, I apologize.
Unless in a thread about science, try not to take me too seriously.

[Schroeder]

O.K. since it was not your intention to slam that into my face I accept your appology.:shucks:

[antikristuseke]

All is well then, allso, looking at my typing, I need coffee, now.

[Digital_Trucker]

While we're on the subject of "getting it right", what is a "pet peewee"? Don't tell me PeeWee Herman is on a leash somewhere?:o

[antikristuseke]

No, i belive in freerange Peewee keeping he roams the great Estonian outdoors.

[SUBMAN1]

P-38? Jesus.. we used to say about those: 8 warning shots, 1 well aimed throw. :D Well, if you take the clip out off it you already have two throws.:D
Well, it might work OK for shooting squirrels.

As for the movie clip:
Must say, I'm beginning to think all of Germany is gay. Every last damn one of em.

-S

[Digital_Trucker]

No, i belive in freerange Peewee keeping he roams the great Estonian outdoors.
:yeah: Good choice:D Don't let him near the great Estonian porno flick houses though, he can be rather embarrassing there:oops:

[antikristuseke]

No, i belive in freerange Peewee keeping he roams the great Estonian outdoors.
:yeah: Good choice:D Don't let him near the great Estonian porno flick houses though, he can be rather embarrassing there:oops:

Thats where the ball gag comes in handy.
Though on a slightly more serious note, I dont really know if we have any of thsoe establishments. I know of a few illegal brothels (in my town) and there are sex shops ofcourse, but places where you go for private porn viewings do not exist to the best of my knowledge.

[Skybird]

Two nice quotes in your sig, Antikristuseke. :up:

[August]

P-38? Jesus.. we just to say about those: 8 warning shots, 1 well aimed throw. :D

I've heard the same joke about many other pistols.:rotfl:
Honestly, though, is it considered to be inaccurate? I've never had any problems.

I prefer my trusty M1911: Accurate as a thrown baseball for about the same distance and pretty effective as a club too. :D

[SUBMAN1]

P-38? Jesus.. we just to say about those: 8 warning shots, 1 well aimed throw. :D

I've heard the same joke about many other pistols.:rotfl:
Honestly, though, is it considered to be inaccurate? I've never had any problems.
I prefer my trusty M1911: Accurate as a thrown baseball for about the same distance and pretty effective as a club too. :DI'd have to agree. .45 is about the perfect caliber for a short barreled handgun. Even the US special forces are going back to it because the 9mm is a POS. Getting hit by a .45 is a pretty sure bet you are going down and this is what they need in close combat situations.

I like my version of the .45 however:

http://www.shootersshop.com/Kimber/stainlessprocarry2.jpg

It's a little pricey, but a very good gun.

-S

[UnderseaLcpl]

I prefer my trusty M1911: Accurate as a thrown baseball for about the same distance and pretty effective as a club too. :D

You can tell a lot about a person by what weapon:DL they carry. I'm not surprised at your choice. The gun fits what I have been able to discern of your personality.

I wouldn't have figured that SUB would wield a 1911, though. He strikes me as more of a TEC-9 kind of guy. Or maybe an M60 kind of guy:hmmm: :DL

[CaptainHaplo]

When your talking stopping power - its not just about the caliber. Also you have to take into account who would be the recieving target. My handguns are primarily for home defense. Thus, the 9mm Makarov is well suited when combined with the right ammunition.

For example, mine is normally stocked with Hornady cut points. I don't have to sweat a normal robber wearing body armor, so the cut points are excellent. Why?

Because the entry hole is the size of a dime.

The exit hole is the size of Long Island.

There is no doubt that its going to put a bad guy down if its fired in "anger" (always hated that term - I much prefer "need" as if your shooting "angry" you ought not to be shooting.). Once I tested these particular cut points, I didn't have to worry about a dt, though with the Makarov its rather easy for me to do.

Now I don't have anything against the .45 or even the .50 Desert Eagle, but I am not 6'5", so the most important thing for me concering accuracy is the fit and balance - and the M is nearly perfect for this particular individual.

[antikristuseke]

I prefer my trusty M1911: Accurate as a thrown baseball for about the same distance and pretty effective as a club too. :D

You can tell a lot about a person by what weapon:DL they carry. I'm not surprised at your choice. The gun fits what I have been able to discern of your personality.

I wouldn't have figured that SUB would wield a 1911, though. He strikes me as more of a TEC-9 kind of guy. Or maybe an M60 kind of guy:hmmm: :DL

I wonder what kind of firearm you have me down for:hmmm:


Now I don't have anything against the .45 or even the .50 Desert Eagle, but I am not 6'5", so the most important thing for me concering accuracy is the fit and balance - and the M is nearly perfect for this particular individual.

I have plenty against the .50 Desert Eagle, and im 6'3, but the comic relief it provides when someone trys to genuinely say that it is a practical handgun is worth it. That being said, it is a fun pistol to fire.

[UnderseaLcpl]

[
I wonder what kind of firearm you have me down for:hmmm:


Well, we haven't talked much before so it is hard for me to say. Assuming that you do have a weapon despite the low ownership rate in Estonia, you'd be a person capable of bucking the trend, so to speak.
I imagine that the memory of Soviet occupation remains fresh in the minds of the proud and independent Estonian people, so I doubt you would choose an Eastern Bloc weapon. Hard to tell though, for reasons stated above.

Your posts often joke or are brief, and from the tone I suspect you'd carry a semi-auto. Being a self-proclaimed aetheist tends to reinforce that suspicion. IIRC, you also joined the military, no? EOD, right?

I don't know anything about your stature or weight but based on the above I'm going to go out on a limb and say you would carry a Glock chambered in 9mm or .45 ACP, but you'd rather have a powerful rifle of the automatic or semi-automatic veriety. Something powerful, but also light and safe.

How far off was I?:DL


edit- now that I think about it, you'd probably also own more than one firearm

[Skybird]

Last week, for the first time since years, and the second time in my life ever, I went with my father to his shooting club and their gunnery range. He is doing it for sports, usually precision air pistol and some small callibre stuff, but he bought a new weapon a Taurus 357 Special, if I remember that name correctly. I shot - how do you call it? - 4 drums? breeches? empty, 24 shots all in all. It was for some strange reason I marked 15 shots within or mostly within the black rings at the centre, and not missing the target a single time with the other shots, which frustrated him a bit, since for a novice the result was pretty good, apparently. In the end I scored 155 points with 24 shots - for self-defense that would be more than good enough, i think. It was no fully charged Magnum ammunition of course, but Wadcutter projectiles. I assume my former experience with archery and sword fighting as well as my regular meditation routine assisted me in shooting that good and control breathing (good at least for a novice in firearms).

But still I fail to see the fun in it. I assume firearms shooting simply is not made for me, or me is not made for firearms. I have prefered archery in the past, and if I ever should come back to shooting, I probably still would choose a bow over firearms.

but I hate the rubber grip of that thing, and found the grip too thin in diameter. That rubber material may be practical, sure, but I hate the feeling of it. Don't ask me why... :DL

when I tried both fully charged Magnum ammunition and air pristol some years ago, I sucked with both. The Magnum was stress to fire, and the air pistol was so light that I did not hold it stable enough. The rapid fire competition they do at the Olympics - respect for being able to do that. That precision in handling compares to rifles or shooting with ordinary ammunition and revolvers/pistols like a surgeon's scalpel compares to a strike with a two-handed warhammer, it seems to me.

[antikristuseke]

[
I wonder what kind of firearm you have me down for:hmmm:


Well, we haven't talked much before so it is hard for me to say. Assuming that you do have a weapon despite the low ownership rate in Estonia, you'd be a person capable of bucking the trend, so to speak.
I imagine that the memory of Soviet occupation remains fresh in the minds of the proud and independent Estonian people, so I doubt you would choose an Eastern Bloc weapon. Hard to tell though, for reasons stated above.

Your posts often joke or are brief, and from the tone I suspect you'd carry a semi-auto. Being a self-proclaimed aetheist tends to reinforce that suspicion. IIRC, you also joined the military, no? EOD, right?

I don't know anything about your stature or weight but based on the above I'm going to go out on a limb and say you would carry a Glock chambered in 9mm or .45 ACP, but you'd rather have a powerful rifle of the automatic or semi-automatic veriety. Something powerful, but also light and safe.

How far off was I?:DL


edit- now that I think about it, you'd probably also own more than one firearm

Well, here every able bodied male has to serve for a year in the armed forces, so I didnt join the army as such. Discharged for medical reasons.
Allso, I dont own any legal firearms, nor any illegal ones anymore. But you were not far off at all, though if i did carry it would be a Para-Ordnance P14-45 or a Glock 21, as far as pistols go anyway. For long arms a G3 would be right up my ally , use a variant of these as our service rifles, love it to bits. And people who say the G3 has too much recoil need to grow a pair:D
As far as east block weapons are concerned, I have nothing but respect for most of them, it is nigh on impossible to go wrong with em.

[Skybird]

As far as east block weapons are concerned, I have nothing but respect for most of them, it is nigh on impossible to go wrong with em.

Saw a good movie yesterday, on TV, with some interesting cynical buit true comments in it. One of them was this:

"Nuclear weapons sit safely deep inside their silos and are guarded well, but the AK-47 is almost indestructable, still fires when covered with sand or mud, is so easy in construction that every child could handle it, and it is present in every war and every fight being fought anywhere on earth. The Kalashnikov is the real weapon of mass destruction."

And another one:

"The five greatest weapon producers in the world are the US, England, France, Russia and China. These are also the five standing members of the UN security council."



Food for thought. :hmmm:

[VipertheSniper]

Lord of War was on TV? remember seeing that not too long ago... good movie.

[Skybird]

Lord of War was on TV? remember seeing that not too long ago... good movie.
Yes:

Yes, it was on TV.

Yes, it was a good movie.

[Sailor Steve]

I'd have to agree. .45 is about the perfect caliber for a short barreled handgun. Even the US special forces are going back to it because the 9mm is a POS. Getting hit by a .45 is a pretty sure bet you are going down and this is what they need in close combat situations.
I have a friend who uses a modified and ported M1911. It has a lot less kick for only a little loss of muzzle velocity. He was once involved in one of those .45 vs 9mm arguments, and when someone said "Those .45 'knock-'em-down stories are all questionable at best" my friend just smiled and said "Yeah, but nobody even tells those stories about 9mms in combat."

[CaptainHaplo]

The 45 knock em down stories are not questionable at all. The fact is that the 45 is a heavier shell fired at a lower velocity compared to a 9mm. Knock down primarily comes from transferring the energy of the round - that is the speed x mass - from the bullet to the target.

On average - a 45 is much better suited for this. The reason the military is going back to the 45 is caused by the fact that body armor is more prevalent. Body armor absorbs MOST (on penetrating shots) or all (on non penetrators) of the energy intended for the target. With a slower, heavy round, you still have the same amount of energy applied - whether it penetrates or not.

Whats important to realize is that a non-penetrating hit to body armor CAN - and does - sometimes still kill. Body armor is not some panacea. By moving to the 45, your causing much more "shock" tissue damage - even if you get no penetration. While a 9mm will on average penetrate better, anything class 2 or above will stop a 45 full jacket at 230 grain (the standard 45 round). It will also stop about half the 9mm rounds out there. Current military grade armor is well above class 2 (usually class 3a or better minimum).

What the military is doing is accepting a non penetration hit, with the thought that its current enemy isn't going to be fully equiped - meaning side plates, etc that help distribute that shock. Its a wise tradeoff. You get the knockdown - even MORE assured if your target is wearing armor - and even a non-penetrator is going to tear the bad guys innards up so bad he's dead though he doesn't know it yet.

However, this is why the ammunition used is important regarding 9mm. The rounds used by the military are FMJ, with the speed of the round resulting in relatively little tissue damage to the target, and almost all hits passing THROUGH the target, thus not imparting the mass x speed energy discussed above. Use what I use, and you either don't get an exit - which imparts all the energy - or you get an exit that tears out half the back torso of your target. Either way - in both cases - just like with the 45 - you get a knockdown. *Though I will admit that if I get the exit - its possible the target falls forward, instead of backwards - but thats ok because he is down and dead regardless.

Historically there is a manly admiration for the 45. Nothing wrong with that. But if your going to be using a firearm, you need to know the strengths of each.

And for the record - porting a 1911 slows the round slightly as was mentioned. This makes a knockdown even MORE likely due to the fact the slower the round goes, the more likely it will stop inside tissue.

Also - you often see military shows doing things like shooting a cinder block or a pumpkin to demonstrate effect on flesh. Its nothing like it. Want to see the energy in a round? Fire it (Safely!!) into a body of water where you can retrieve the round. Look at the deformation of the round. Now think of the speed of the bullet - deforming inside you and then stopping - thats a knockdown folks! For even more realism use a half of a cow - though thats going a bit overboard for the testing most people want to do.

[SUBMAN1]

FYI - knockdown power is a 'myth'. It is all about the greatest chance of severing something vital to ones requirement to live and continue trying to do you harm.

Newtons law of physics tells you that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Apply this to firearms and that law would say that if you could knock down the bad guy with your uber super bullet, that action to propel that bullet would also knock the shooter on his ass too! :D

Oh how Hollywood likes to make the gun out to be something that it is not. Then Guns Magazine starts to believe it. Then half the world also believes it. Then you wonder why all the inaccurate info flies around when people don't really analyze the facts? And then they make up situations where the debunked theory works when it really doesn't. Sanow from Guns and Ammo really propagated this myth. Simple science and the laws of physics should make you smart enough to look past it.

<...Watch this turn into the alternate global warming thread...>


I prefer my trusty M1911: Accurate as a thrown baseball for about the same distance and pretty effective as a club too. :D
You can tell a lot about a person by what weapon:DL they carry. I'm not surprised at your choice. The gun fits what I have been able to discern of your personality.

I wouldn't have figured that SUB would wield a 1911, though. He strikes me as more of a TEC-9 kind of guy. Or maybe an M60 kind of guy:hmmm: :DL
I have a friend with an M-60. I need to go try that.

Anyway, I read up on what is best by the experts - US military and the FBI. They know a thing or two about killling people and what works and what doesn't. The guy shot 32 times w/9mm in the torso over the period of almost an hour before he was hit with a lucky juggler shot pretty much 9mm sealed its fate in my book - it s POS for stupid gangbangers and the US Military is dumping it after finding out it didn't work so well in Iraq. I think it's Chicago where the cops are forbidden from using 9mm because of that incident.

After researching the FBI classified reports (released due to freedom of information act), it turns out you better be at least using a .40 if you plan to use a short barreled weapon!

-S

[CaptainHaplo]

Sorry Subman, but your wrong on this one.

Firing a pistol causes recoil - but due to the fact your using your arms, the kick is transfered into a vertical - which substantially reduces the "felt" impact. This is what makes a double tap from a 45 or 44 mag almost impossible. You can't hold the point of aim for the time required.

Also don't forget, your standard handgun is semi-automatic. The gun uses the force of the kickback to load the next round. The shock is absorbed and used, normally via a very stiff spring - to keep the energy being directly applied to you.

Part of good design on a handgun is so that the fire cycle energy is utilized to the maximum so that the shooter feels the minimum possible.

If you had a way of setting off a .45 shell against your chest - even using armor - the kickback would have no "cushion" to bleed of that energy - and would put a hole in you.

Edit - as for getting hit with multiple 9mm's and it not being fatal - sure I can agree there. Question is - what type rounds were used - weight, jacket and grain? Also where where the hits located? You can get hit multiple times by any handgun round and in not be fatal - depending on where your hit. Had the target you reference been hit with cut points in the area a normal shooter is told to aim for (being "center mass) - the odds of missing a vital artery, vein, nervous system or organ(s) would have been miniscule. That is why round selection is critical if your going to be shooting "in anger".

This is why single shot pistols have the recoil they do - no way to bleed off firing energy. Shoot one and your hand WILL go way up.

[SUBMAN1]

When your talking stopping power - its not just about the caliber. Also you have to take into account who would be the recieving target. My handguns are primarily for home defense. Thus, the 9mm Makarov is well suited when combined with the right ammunition.

For example, mine is normally stocked with Hornady cut points. I don't have to sweat a normal robber wearing body armor, so the cut points are excellent. Why?

Because the entry hole is the size of a dime.

The exit hole is the size of Long Island.....

Better rethink your strategy if you ever plan to use that thing to save your life. I'd suggest selling it. 9mm does not have the strength, the velocity, or the deep enough penetration, nor the weight do do what you describe. You have been sold by marketing.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Sorry Subman, but your wrong on this one.

Firing a pistol causes recoil - but due to the fact your using your arms, the kick is transfered into a vertical - which substantially reduces the "felt" impact. This is what makes a double tap from a 45 or 44 mag almost impossible. You can't hold the point of aim for the time required.

Also don't forget, your standard handgun is semi-automatic. The gun uses the force of the kickback to load the next round. The shock is absorbed and used, normally via a very stiff spring - to keep the energy being directly applied to you.

Part of good design on a handgun is so that the fire cycle energy is utilized to the maximum so that the shooter feels the minimum possible.

If you had a way of setting off a .45 shell against your chest - even using armor - the kickback would have no "cushion" to bleed of that energy - and would put a hole in you.

This is why single shot pistols have the recoil they do - no way to bleed off firing energy. Shoot one and your hand WILL go way up.Excuse me, but I have fired .44 and .50 without going into the upwards swing on purpose. I never had an issue, and there is no slide to take the impact.

It is pure bunk. Law of physics man.

Dream any way you want, but I have shot black powder which has a much stronger force than any shelled casing on top of this, and it just doesn't happen. Even in the FBi reports, they specifically denounce this and it has never been documented.

-S

PS. Now that I think about it, I have even shot .50BMG from the hip without any swing! :)

[SUBMAN1]

Just a thought by the way - I wouldn't want knockdown power with a gun. That means the energy is being absorbed by the body instead of penetration of the body. Which mean, penetration is unlikely or severely hampered resulting in little or shallow damage to the aggressor, and likely retaliation. Bad way all around.

Unless that gun was about 120mm. Then maybe! :D

-S

[CaptainHaplo]

Subman, we could argue this - but since you say physics - here ya go.

Yes the 9mm is lighter - so the 45 wins on the weight scale (already admitted that earlier).

A Makarov is 9x18M
Bullet weight = .364
Velocity - 1100 Fps

I mention the bullet weight because most 9mm are .356 - meaning it has a bit more weight than the standard 9mm.

Now if you take .364x1100 - you get 400.5j of force applied to a person hit with a non-pass through round from my 9x18

Specs on the 45 ACP (a 1911 model as well as many others)
Bullet weight =.451
Muzzle velocity = 830 Fps
This was using a 230 gr (15g) Speer Lawman FMJ - a "common" spec round

Same equation - .451x 830 - gives you a force applied of 374.33j

Even using the standard .356 weight of most 9mm's at the same 1100 fps muzzle velocity, you get 391.6j

This is simple math physics.

If you want to check the numbers - go to wikipedia and look up .45acp

Now - to put this in something everyone can understand - I will convert joules to foot pounds.

"Standard" 9mm round that does NOT exit a target - 288.83ft/lbs
.45 ACP - 276.09 ft/lbs
9x18M - 295.39 ft/lbs

If you hit your target - and the round doesnt go THROUGH the target - this is the amount of knock down force you just hit your target with. The key here is to remember that the .45 has such legendary power because it is ALOT less likely to pass through the target due to its lower velocity. This gives it a much better chance to apply its full "knockdown" power. For most 9mm rounds - the round goes THROUGH the target - meaning most of the energy is still with the traveling bullet. This is why you have to pay VERY close attention to your choice of ammuntion.

All of these firearms are deadly - its a matter of if the round stays in the body - and of course the damage in there it does. Any of these hit center mass and stick in the body - they will impart a heck of a hit to a man.

Regarding your "penetration" argument - the higher velocity will penetrate better - which is why a 45 ACP is stopped by class 2 body armor - and a Makarov 9mm requires class 3a or better. The 9x18 has a much higher velocity than a 45ACP. The key here is not more penetration - but actually less. If you get less penetration - the round stays in your target - transfering ALL its energy to the target. Heavy and slow is better in this case. I personally don't know of anyone with thick enough skin to make any reasonable handgun round bounce off....... so you will get SOME penetration no matter what.

I will say it again - its all about the choice of round. If you just go pick a box up because it will fit in your firearm - your not making a smart choice. Any gun can be deadly - but it takes knowledge - and skill - to use it correctly.

[SUBMAN1]

Tired of arguing the point, so let me give you the FBI's take on it.

-S

...The often referred to "knock-down power" implies the ability of a bullet to move its target. This is
nothing more than momentum of the bullet. It is the transfer of momentum that will cause a target to
move in response to the blow received. "Isaac Newton proved this to be the case mathematically in the
17th Century, and Benjamin Robins verified it experimentally through the invention and use of the
ballistic pendulum to determine muzzle velocity by measurement of the pendulum motion."29

Goddard amply proves the fallacy of "knock-down power" by calculating the heights (and
resultant velocities) from which a one pound weight and a ten pound weight must be dropped to equal the
momentum of 9mm and .45ACP projectiles at muzzle velocities, respectively. The results are revealing.
In order to equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped
from a height of 5.96 feet, achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45ACP bullet, the
one pound weight needs a velocity of 27.1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 11.4 feet. A ten
pound weight equals the impact of a 9mm bullet when dropped from a height of 0.72 inches (velocity
attained is 1.96 fps), and equals the impact of a .45 when dropped from 1.37 inches (achieving a velocity
of 2.71 fps).30

A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would
be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been
known for hundreds of years.31 The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately
equivalent to being hit with a baseball.32 Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within
the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously.

The human target can be reliably incapacitated only by disrupting or destroying the brain or upper
spinal cord. Absent that, incapacitation is subject to a host of variables, the most important of which are
beyond the control of the shooter. Incapacitation becomes an eventual event, not necessarily an immediate
one. If the psychological factors which can contribute to incapacitation are present, even a minor wound
can be immediately incapacitating. If they are not present, incapacitation can be significantly delayed
even with major, unsurvivable wounds....




-------------------------------------------------------------------
Footnotes:

29 Goddard, Stanley: "Some Issues for Consideration in Choosing Between 9mm and .45ACP Handguns", Battelle
Labs, Ballistic Sciences, Ordnance Systems and Technology Section, Columbus, OH, presented to the FBI
Academy, 2/16/88, pages 3-4.
30 Goddard, Stanley: "Some Issues for Consideration in Choosing Between 9mm and .45ACP Handguns", Battelle
Labs, Ballistic Sciences, Ordnance Systems and Technology Section, Columbus, OH, presented to the FBI
Academy, 2/16/88, pages 3-4.
31 Newton, Sir Isaac, Principia Mathematica, 1687, in which are stated Newton’s Laws of Motion. The Second Law
of Motion states that a body will accelerate, or change its speed, at a rate that is proportional to the force acting
upon it. In simpler terms, for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. The acceleration will of course
be in inverse proportion to the mass of the body. For example, the same force acting upon a body of twice the
mass will produce exactly half the acceleration.
32 Lindsay, Douglas, MD, presentation to the Wound Ballistics Workshop, Quantico, VA, 1987.

[SUBMAN1]

PS. Now you can see one of the reasons I own a .45

And a Kimber no less!

http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/compactprocarry/

The other is - Kimber is about as reliable as you can get. Won many tests against all other competitors of many different calibers. Some PD's are required to use Kimbers because they care for their officers!

-S

[NeonSamurai]

Subman is completely correct regarding bullet physics and "knockdown"/"knockback" It's a myth portrayed so often in games and on the screen that most people believe its true.

Mythbusters also tried that myth out twice, and here is the vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCzD5uhSViY

They shot "buster" (their dummy) with a 50 cal sniper rifle on a rig that just barely holds him standing from the sides. Anyhow even with a 50 cal transferring all its energy into the dummy, the dummy still just slumped straight down.


Lastly you can to double tap a .45, SWAT teams all over the states use the 1911 or other .45 caliber weapons and are trained to double tap with them.

As for home defense, a 12 gauge generally trumps both calibers (with my personal preference being a Benelli M2 or M4). .45 makes a good backup though. Shame I can't afford either right now.

[A Very Super Market]

If someone did collapse from a bullet, I would think that it would be due to pain, and not physics. Your body won't move if its too busy going into shock.

[Skybird]

Amazing what a comical video can lead to. :hmmm:

[Fincuan]

Here's more to that "knockdown power is a myth"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8GBl1XlRtc&feature=related

That's no less than some sort of 7.62x51 NATO they use there.

[CaptainHaplo]

Uh huh - you talk about physics, but when the math is done for you - you try and ignore it. The energy of a moving bullet goes somwhere.... so where does it go? If its not absorbed by the body it sticks in - what happens to it?

Ok - whatever. Fact is - ever been shot? Ever seen someone shot? Ever seen the difference in a pass through wound and a bullet staying in the body?

Boy we go from "the 45 is what you have to have for a knockdown - its all physics" - then someone does the math and it doesn't work out like people expected - then its "knockdown power is a myth" - because the 45 has a theoretical lower ft/lbs number.

I got nothing against the 45, its a danged fine caliber. I am not saying there is "something" better - or acting like a 9mm is better. Everything has its drawbacks.

Knockdown power is a myth - but yet there are charts out there that show measured force at impact - hmmm - what would you like to call that then? Call it whatever you want - but reality says when something hits something else - it exerts a force upon the object hit.

Take your fist and punch a buddy in the shoulder - if its done with any amount of force, it will affect his equilibrium. Your fist moves at what? max 10 fps? Has an effect on him doesn't it?

Per the argument on recoil - then the hit that you apply to your friend's shoulder should upset your equilibrium the same way - but it doesnt. If it did - then every punch a boxer would throw that knocked his opponent back should do the same to him - and we all know thats not the case.

Its easy to quote laws of physics - but even to the naked eye and normal everyday experience we see that the laws - while they apply - incorporate alot more variables than your willing to consider in this argument.

Common sense gentleman... common sense.

Knockdown power is a myth - ok - since when? Since the math didnt make the 45 the "undisputed king"?

Tell you what - you want a real experiment - put on a class 4 vest - and let someone shoot you with a .38 in the chest. Then tell me you didnt feel it.

I guess body armor manufactureres had to create trauma plates because there is no such thing as impact energy - which causes impact trauma.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/body-armor1.htm

All this denial - simply because the sentimental favorite didn't have the "winning numbers". Sad really - when the number it had were actually better suited under most circumstances.... Oh well... go figure what emotional attachments will do.

[Fincuan]

Tell you what - you want a real experiment - put on a class 4 vest - and let someone shoot you with a .38 in the chest. Then tell me you didnt feel it.


If you had bothered to watch the few vids above you would have seen exactly this being done.

[NeonSamurai]

I get the feeling your mixing up so called "knockdown" power with "stopping" power which tries to measure how likely you will stop (kill or incapacitate) an attacker).

Second your use of mathematics is not the full picture of what is happening, and is flawed on many many levels. I would try to explain why and how, but I don't have the time to so maybe someone else will take the time to. Also so called common sense is often completely wrong.

Last as Fin said you obviously didn't look at either video which both had real life experiments using weapons far surpassing the power of either the 9 or 45, Both of which demonstrate non existence of a knockdown/back effect. One of the bullets used was a .50 cal BMG round, and in each video the round gave its full energy to the target.

[nikimcbee]

Somebody needs to get Hanomag in here! (with the hat:D )

[Jimbuna]

Somebody needs to get Hanomag in here! (with the hat:D )

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4613/subsim2008049.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=subsim2008049.jpg)