Pelosi unable to attend global warming rally...

[SteamWake]

Seems she was snowed in :rotfl:

http://cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=44320

[Max2147]

Yeah, that's why people tend to call it "climate change" now instead of "global warming." According to the predictions, some places (like the UK) will get a lot cooler even though the planet gets warmer.

[Onkel Neal]

New York Times reports "a major cooling of the planet is widely considered inevitable because it is well established that the Northern Hemisphere's climate has been getting cooler since about 1950s."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/13/AR2009021302514.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/13/AR2009021302514.html)

[SteamWake]

This saturday I went to bed and it was 76 F outside with a RH of 82%.

Woke up Sunday morning it was 44 F with RH of 56%.

Now THATS climate change :doh:

[Rockstar]

Too bad the only answer these nut politicians can come up with is to tax the snot out of us because of the weather outside happens to be warm. Oops I mean cold errr cool with a bit of sun oh whatever.

[August]

There used to be a lot of folks in this forum who were quite vocal in their espousing of the global warming theory. We don't hear much from them on the subject anymore.

It must be all that egg on their faces... :yeah:

[Sea Demon]

This saturday I went to bed and it was 76 F outside with a RH of 82%.

Woke up Sunday morning it was 44 F with RH of 56%.

Now THATS climate change :doh:

March 2nd and dumping snow just 15 miles up the hill here. Global Warming? Global Cooling? Climate change? Well, different weather properties from last year. And will probably be a different story next March 2nd.

[AVGWarhawk]

What Al Gore says...goes...got it?:nope: We are getting warm damn it! Al said so.

[Tchocky]

Pfft!

"Global warming" indeed!

It's quite chilly out tonight!

What do you say to that, Hansen?

[Bewolf]

There used to be a lot of folks in this forum who were quite vocal in their espousing of the global warming theory. We don't hear much from them on the subject anymore.

It must be all that egg on their faces... :yeah:

Talking to walls gets tiredsome eventually, my friend. Don Quixote ist best played by others. :|\\

[August]

Talking to walls gets tiredsome eventually, my friend. Don Quixote ist best played by others. :|\\

I hear ya. Telling people about the last round of environmental fear mongering back in the '70's seemed to make little impression on those determined to spread it. I just thank God that our leaders at the time refused to give into it and ratify that stupid Kyoto wealth redistribution treaty.

[SUBMAN1]

Talking to walls gets tiredsome eventually, my friend. Don Quixote ist best played by others. :|\\

Further proof that there are still some people out there who will believe anything a tree hugger tells them without checking the facts.

-S

[rubenandthejets]

Talking to walls gets tiredsome eventually, my friend. Don Quixote ist best played by others. :|\\

Further proof that there are still some people out there who will believe anything a tree hugger tells them without checking the facts.

-S
I like hugging trees.

You need to look over a much longer time frame to get some prespective (at least 2-3,000,000 years). I'm also aware of the deficiencies of climatic data collection and computer modelling. I've done a lot of fact checking and even managed to get a BSc in palaeoclimatology and palaeoecology.

The fun thing about science is that it progresses through disagreement. I'm sure you could find an eminent scientist to back up whatever claims you want to make, but the consensus in the field is climate change is here, is increasing and it's caused by human actions (but personally I worry more about SOx and CH4 than CO2).

[August]

but the consensus in the field is climate change is here, is increasing and it's caused by human actions (but personally I worry more about SOx and CH4 than CO2).

Human actions or human population?

[A Very Super Market]

I believe that both will cause significant difficulties in our future, especially the fact our pop. growth rate is doubling. Pop. in 1966 was 3.2 billion, now it is 6.4 (Or something like that), and in 2020 it will be 8.4 billion.

[rubenandthejets]

Human actions includes having babies. The populations has doubled in my lifetime.
In itself that's not such a big worry, but when you plot energy and non renewable resource consumption over the same time period it gets pretty scary.

I worked in the environmental field for twenty years and IMHO it's all too little too late. Get used living in the biggest mass extinction event since the Permian (which was bigger than the K/T "seeya later dinosaurs" event).

Welcome to the Homogocene, the age of sameness.

[August]

Does the average person in a 1st world country cause more global warming that a person who lived in say the middle ages (per capita)?

For example yes we drive cars and use electricity, but does that really cause more global warming than a person burning wood for cooking and heating or using slash and burn farming techniques?

[A Very Super Market]

Trees and plants both grow back, using up the same resources that burning them took away.

Are we making new fossil fuels to put back in the ground?

[August]

Are we making new fossil fuels to put back in the ground?

Well they didn't just magically appear so i'd imagine new fossil fuels are going into the ground at the same rate they originally did.

[A Very Super Market]

Fossil fuels are compressed fossils, which aren't well known for popping fast, are they?

In any case, as long as the population expands, the more we will need to tap into the Earth, and even if GW doesn't exist (As you all seem to believe) running out of fossil fuels (Or hell, food) will also spell doom for us.

[August]

Fossil fuels are compressed fossils, which aren't well known for popping fast, are they?

In any case, as long as the population expands, the more we will need to tap into the Earth, and even if GW doesn't exist (As you all seem to believe) running out of fossil fuels (Or hell, food) will also spell doom for us.


Doom schmoom. Man survived before fossil fuel exploitation and we will survive afterwards. Adding to the hysteria is not going to help.

I believe that climate change exists, both naturally occurring and caused by humans. Unlike many of the faithful however, I believe the human caused part is due to the huge population and not per capita effect, therefore politically driven "solutions" such as Kyoto and carbon trading will not address the true cause.

[A Very Super Market]

Fine, doom for current society. I didn't mean extinction. But survival is a very broad term, and I hardly think that many of us will be able to make the transition from fossil fuels to none.

[August]

Fine, doom for current society. I didn't mean extinction. But survival is a very broad term, and I hardly think that many of us will be able to make the transition from fossil fuels to none.
Well you're talking about something that will take a hundred years. Very few of us will still be around in the year 2109. I know I won't. And we seem to agree that human population is way above sustainable levels anyways.

So either we learn to manage our own numbers or I guess nature will do it for us. I just think that carbon counting and other wealth redistribution schemes are boondoggles which makes us think we're doing something about climate change when we're not.

[A Very Super Market]

Quite right. Population levels are the real problem. If they were at manageable levels, then no one would be arguing about Global Warming. It is consumption of all resources that is a problem I hope we can all agree on, and the number of human beings is the cause of increased consumption.


In fact, the majority of the things people argue about is due to an overflowing planet. I can imagine the wealth gap shrink, and territorial squabbles (Among many other things) all go away if there were less people. Unfortunately, that isn't the case.

But still, reducing consumption of fossil fuels is a good thing regardless of global warming. Oil and natural gas are (Geologically speaking) extremely close to empty, and though coal is still comparitively plentiful, it is best to begin preparing for the future.

[Bewolf]

Talking to walls gets tiredsome eventually, my friend. Don Quixote ist best played by others. :|\\
I hear ya. Telling people about the last round of environmental fear mongering back in the '70's seemed to make little impression on those determined to spread it. I just thank God that our leaders at the time refused to give into it and ratify that stupid Kyoto wealth redistribution treaty.

You see, that is what it boils down to. Money, the holy grail of american capitalism. And it's pretty senseless to discuss with folks that are paranoid bout their money, no matter the cost. I could go on that the US gained it's wealth by beeing one of the major contributors to climate change, stalling investments for filters and other means to reduce emissions, all to make "more" money, that 5 percent of the world population are responsible for 25 percent of the worlds emissions. But this realisation, and thus reason itself, falls on deaf ears. It's like talking to the Taliban about human rights. With other words, redundant.

[August]

You see, that is what it boils down to. Money, the holy grail of american capitalism. And it's pretty senseless to discuss with folks that are paranoid bout their money, no matter the cost. I could go on that the US gained it's wealth by beeing one of the major contributors to climate change, stalling investments for filters and other means to reduce emissions, all to make "more" money, that 5 percent of the world population are responsible for 25 percent of the worlds emissions. But this realisation, and thus reason itself, falls on deaf ears. It's like talking to the Taliban about human rights. With other words, redundant.

And I could go on about the horrible environmental damage Germany has caused the world over the past 100 years. Should I hold you and your children responsible for that?

We consume what we consume for a variety of reasons but the bottom line here is we'd be stupid to further damage our economy by handing our national wealth over to countries like China and Germany just so everyone can feel better about themselves, even though it will do nothing to address the problem of human caused climate change.

[Zachstar]

Face it folks its absolutely useless to talk about GW when you got the economy dominating the headlines. People want to be idiots and tin foil hatters saying GW is a conspiricy let them. They arent the ones developing the technology to fix it AND fix our economy like the folks at EEstor and Nanosolar.

[rubenandthejets]

Does the average person in a 1st world country cause more global warming that a person who lived in say the middle ages (per capita)?

For example yes we drive cars and use electricity, but does that really cause more global warming than a person burning wood for cooking and heating or using slash and burn farming techniques?

OK, just take your average 2000 cc car. The amount of energy needed to dig up, refine and manufacture it is immense, let alone propel it. The medieval peasant walked. How many have you owned in your life? Were they 100% recycled?

How about food? The fertilizers and machinery to produce it, process it transport it, package it and dispose of the waste are all likewise huge drains on non renewable resources (notably oil) that were negligible in medieval times. Even the poop was recycled,as opposed to being sanitised, strained and pumped into the ocean.

What about clothes? Appliances? Paper? The list is nearly endless.
There are a few websites yu can use to check out your "ecological footprint". Compare it to that of say, a Haitian or Sri Lankan villager.

[Bewolf]

You see, that is what it boils down to. Money, the holy grail of american capitalism. And it's pretty senseless to discuss with folks that are paranoid bout their money, no matter the cost. I could go on that the US gained it's wealth by beeing one of the major contributors to climate change, stalling investments for filters and other means to reduce emissions, all to make "more" money, that 5 percent of the world population are responsible for 25 percent of the worlds emissions. But this realisation, and thus reason itself, falls on deaf ears. It's like talking to the Taliban about human rights. With other words, redundant.
And I could go on about the horrible environmental damage Germany has caused the world over the past 100 years. Should I hold you and your children responsible for that?

We consume what we consume for a variety of reasons but the bottom line here is we'd be stupid to further damage our economy by handing our national wealth over to countries like China and Germany just so everyone can feel better about themselves, even though it will do nothing to address the problem of human caused climate change.

Oh yes, you should hold us responsible for that. We do that ourselves. That is one reason Germany put so much emphazis on environmental issues since the 80ies "Waldsterben" and reduced consume of water and energy through building directives for quite some time. Compare the energy and water waste rates of a german housing to american. We actually spent that extra money, so don't give me that wealth distribution stuff. It is one thing to feel beeing treated without justice, it 's another to cling to money for moneys sake and nothing else, especially when others already gave theirs.

[SteamWake]

Face it folks its absolutely useless to talk about GW when you got the economy dominating the headlines.

Then why on earth would Pelosi be trying to attend a GW conference in the first place ?

[August]

OK, just take your average 2000 cc car. The amount of energy needed to dig up, refine and manufacture it is immense, let alone propel it. The medieval peasant walked. How many have you owned in your life? Were they 100% recycled?

Your peasant was just as likely to ride a horse or ox cart.

How about food? The fertilizers and machinery to produce it, process it transport it, package it and dispose of the waste are all likewise huge drains on non renewable resources (notably oil) that were negligible in medieval times. Even the poop was recycled,as opposed to being sanitised, strained and pumped into the ocean.

Seems to me that human waste was just as likely to be dumped in the gutter or any handy body of water completely untreated as recycled. And with the lack of refrigeration, pest control and obsolete farming techniques a heckuva lot more food was wasted.

What about clothes? Appliances? Paper? The list is nearly endless.
There are a few websites yu can use to check out your "ecological footprint". Compare it to that of say, a Haitian or Sri Lankan villager.

Bad examples. War, starvation and extreme poverty is not something to emulate unless that's really the way you'd prefer to live.

Don't cherry pick. Ancient man wasted a lot more resources per capita than you are implying.

[SteamWake]

Funny you should mention human waste...

I watched a docudrama last night about Pompei (sp?). It was mentioned in that film that human urine was highly valuable, so much so it was taxed :o

The urine was used to wash clothes, the amonia in it would cut grease stains quite well. The poor slaves had to walk around in a pit full of water, urine, and dirty clothes.

Just a little trivia.

[A Very Super Market]

I don't see where you are getting that argument.

Peasants walked. Totally. They could not afford to ride horse carts, or oxen. They were better used in the fields, since the yields were so low. Besides which, horses and oxen have both been part of the eco-system for centuries, and the Earth can make up for whatever farts they make.

The food peasants made was negligible in the first place, so I don't see how it could be "wasted". They ate rotting meat anyways, which was why spices were so valuable in that time, to preserve meat longer. Veggies, they let insects and vermin get into. I don't see how you could possibly say that a peasant would use similar or more resources than a car-driving modern day person.

[August]

Oh yes, you should hold us responsible for that. We do that ourselves. That is one reason Germany put so much emphazis on environmental issues since the 80ies "Waldsterben" and reduced consume of water and energy through building directives for quite some time. Compare the energy and water waste rates of a german housing to american. We actually spent that extra money, so don't give me that wealth distribution stuff. It is one thing to feel beeing treated without justice, it 's another to cling to money for moneys sake and nothing else, especially when others already gave theirs.

Really? What about all that nuclear waste Germany has produced? That stuff has a half life running into the hundreds and thousands of years you know. What about your much weaker motor vehicle emissions standards, especially in "nonroad mobile machinery" where you don't have them at all? I'll put our environmental regulations up against anyones thank you.

[August]

Besides which, horses and oxen have both been part of the eco-system for centuries, and the Earth can make up for whatever farts they make.

Maybe when the world population is in the millions but certainly not at 6 billion and climbing. Already we're hearing how cow herds produce significant amounts of greenhouse gasses, not to mention the problems with their waste getting into rivers and streams.

[Bewolf]

Oh yes, you should hold us responsible for that. We do that ourselves. That is one reason Germany put so much emphazis on environmental issues since the 80ies "Waldsterben" and reduced consume of water and energy through building directives for quite some time. Compare the energy and water waste rates of a german housing to american. We actually spent that extra money, so don't give me that wealth distribution stuff. It is one thing to feel beeing treated without justice, it 's another to cling to money for moneys sake and nothing else, especially when others already gave theirs.
Really? What about all that nuclear waste Germany has produced? That stuff has a half life running into the hundreds and thousands of years you know. What about your much weaker motor vehicle emissions standards, especially in "nonroad mobile machinery" where you don't have them at all? I'll put our environmental regulations up against anyones thank you.

The lack of a propper nuclear waste solution is one reason there are no new nuclear power plants build here, and haven't been build for over two decades when this showed to be a real problem. Those that still run are planned to be shut down in the decade to come and only because of contracts with the industry signed decades ago are still up and running. And if you want to start comparing isolated areas of the overall industrial output, then we may very well start with your regular every day car, by far the greatest contributor to mobile machinery pollution, not taking regular industry even into account.

Instead of focussing on propaganda BS like "they want to take our money, it is a conspiracy directed at the US...they'll come get us! :88) " you may want to inform yourself on the issues outside FOX News.

[August]

Instead of focussing on propaganda BS like "they want to take our money, it is a conspiracy directed at the US...they'll come get us! :88) " you may want to inform yourself on the issues outside FOX News.

And maybe you ought to keep a civil tongue in your head. Your sarcasm does not impress me in the least.

[Bewolf]

Instead of focussing on propaganda BS like "they want to take our money, it is a conspiracy directed at the US...they'll come get us! :88) " you may want to inform yourself on the issues outside FOX News.
And maybe you ought to keep a civil tongue in your head. Your sarcasm does not impress me in the least.

I am not here to impress you, nor anybody else. Take the couple folks still contributing their energy to discuss this with folks like you as an opportunity to think about the issues outside the typical box, or leave it. Either or, none of what we discuss here has any influence on how the world tackles this problem.

[August]

I am not here to impress you, nor anybody else. Take the couple folks still contributing their energy to discuss this with folks like you as an opportunity to think about the issues outside the typical box, or leave it. Either or, none of what we discuss here has any influence on how the world tackles this problem.

If you can't make your arguments without resorting to personal attacks then you don't have much of an argument at all.

[Bewolf]

I am not here to impress you, nor anybody else. Take the couple folks still contributing their energy to discuss this with folks like you as an opportunity to think about the issues outside the typical box, or leave it. Either or, none of what we discuss here has any influence on how the world tackles this problem.
If you can't make your arguments without resorting to personal attacks then you don't have much of an argument at all.

That's totally up to you. For me this topic has been done to death way too many times without any productive outcome to really care anymore how you percieve my oh so insulting argumentation.

[SteamWake]

Since we have drifted way off topic and degraded into personal bickering I think its time to close this one.

[August]

Since we have drifted way off topic and degraded into personal bickering I think its time to close this one.

Yeah. A pity though as it was interesting.

[Sailor Steve]

The earth is definitely getting warmer. It's all that hot air coming out of the politicians worldwide.

[rubenandthejets]

One last thing about money.

The last US president refused to sign the Kyoto protocol (at the time the US ws the largest emmitter of greenhouse gases ) because the price tag of 350 billion dollars was seen as too expensive. He did however manage to find 3.5 trillion dollars for a war in Iraq.

[Digital_Trucker]

One last thing....................

doesn't matter what it is, someone has to get the last thing in:D

[Aramike]

One last thing about money.

The last US president refused to sign the Kyoto protocol (at the time the US ws the largest emmitter of greenhouse gases ) because the price tag of 350 billion dollars was seen as too expensive. He did however manage to find 3.5 trillion dollars for a war in Iraq.Let's just, for the sake of argument, say that the Iraq War was an unneeded and wasteful expense.

Now, that being said, how does one wasteful expense (Iraq) justify another (Kyoto)?

[rubenandthejets]

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that Kyoto isn't a waste of money.

[nikimcbee]

So, after all of this, there is no need for all of the "eco-taxes"?:yeah:

[A Very Super Market]

I think we should really stop posting these threads.

No one is convincing anyone, and it usually turns into a slugfest between people with existing animosity.

[nikimcbee]

I think we should really stop posting these threads.

No one is convincing anyone, and it usually turns into a slugfest between people with existing animosity.

...and there lies in the fun!:haha:

[Aramike]

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that Kyoto isn't a waste of money.Let's then just say, for the sake of argument, that Iraq isn't a waste of money.

See how your logic (comparing Iraq to Kyoto) can go around in circles? I thought my first post would have illustrated that but alas...

[rubenandthejets]

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that Kyoto isn't a waste of money.Let's then just say, for the sake of argument, that Iraq isn't a waste of money.

See how your logic (comparing Iraq to Kyoto) can go around in circles? I thought my first post would have illustrated that but alas...

Alas indeed. Alack even.

[Zachstar]

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that Kyoto isn't a waste of money.Let's then just say, for the sake of argument, that Iraq isn't a waste of money.

See how your logic (comparing Iraq to Kyoto) can go around in circles? I thought my first post would have illustrated that but alas...

Except Iraq was useless unless you are in love with Iran gaining that much free power.

[Aramike]

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that Kyoto isn't a waste of money.Let's then just say, for the sake of argument, that Iraq isn't a waste of money.

See how your logic (comparing Iraq to Kyoto) can go around in circles? I thought my first post would have illustrated that but alas...

Except Iraq was useless unless you are in love with Iran gaining that much free power.*Sigh*

The point isn't about Iraq or Kyoto ... it is that the usefulness of each are highly debatable, and therefore one cannot be used to justify the other.

This really can't be THAT hard... :doh:

[heartc]

The lack of a propper nuclear waste solution is one reason there are no new nuclear power plants build here, and haven't been build for over two decades when this showed to be a real problem. Those that still run are planned to be shut down in the decade to come and only because of contracts with the industry signed decades ago are still up and running.

Right. It has nothing to do with the fact that no honest person really has a clue on how to provide all the energy if we would shut down all those plants that are still running now tomorrow. It's the evil industry that stops good people like you from doing that...OK.

Instead of focussing on propaganda BS like "they want to take our money, it is a conspiracy directed at the US...they'll come get us! :88) " you may want to inform yourself on the issues outside FOX News.

You may want to inform yourself outside SPON and state sponsored television.

[Onkel Neal]

This thread is like renting a porno that contains no sex, just lots of talking.

[antikristuseke]

Yeah, I was allso reminded of the O'riley factor minus bill orly