For SHIII veterans: How was the jump?

[Agiel7]

I've played GWX with Silent Hunter III, and after playing SHIV (stock version, I'll come around to TriggerMaru when I have the time), I've come to a few conclusions:

1: You come to appreciate what little you had on your dinky little Type VII, considering that you were working with torpedoes that actually worked.

2: Torpedoes aside, the game is gracious enough to assign shifts to my crew, rather than me having to constantly pause every 12 hours to make sure my machinists get enough rest.

3: Not really an observation, more like a question: "How the hell did I manage with only four fishes per salvo?

How'd it go with the rest of you?

[Arclight]

Fleet-boats made me feel right at home. I don't know how I managed without A/C and an icecream maker. And once you learn the limitations of the Mark 14, you'll manage just fine. :sunny:

[GREY WOLF 3]

Still trying to get my head around sh4
At the moment GWX GOLD3 with sh3 rules:yeah:

[Red Devil]

I always had problems with SH3 mods. I refused to use SH3 in its original format, I will not sink my 'own ships' on principle. So when the pacific mod became available, I jumped at the chance. Since then I have a new pc, quad core thingy, so I am running SH4 beautifully on RSRD mod (I think, I'm not sure which version I have).

I am addicted, and love it.

[TDK1044]

I played the Fleet Boats for a while. but now I run U Boats in the Atlantic in SH4. Operation Monsun with Trigger Maru. Try it, it will blow you away. :DL

[Platapus]

The biggest problem I had with switching was the TDC.

It just seemed so much straight forward in the SH3 (with mods). I found the physical arrangement of the TDC and the data entry locations to be awkward and slow compared to SH3.

It was a pretty humbling experience to go from SH3 where I was able to do manual targeting very quickly, even with multiple targets; and then do to SH4 where I could not hit a bull in the butt with a base fiddle. I am getting better at SH4 but not as good as I am with SH3.

Both games are fun though :yeah:

[Torplexed]

I think for me the biggest adjustment was all the planes. Luckily mods and patches have addressed this problem since, but the game seemed more the Atlantic war in 1944 where you were always having to pull the plug and dive every few miles. Happily the air search radar is excellent which was a good adjustment.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm still only toying around with it, as my computer runs it very badly. There are things I'd like to see in the future for SH4, but all told I'm really looking forward to getting the right setup. SH4 has so much to offer, what with the crew managing themselves. I also love both theaters in the war, and love subsims in general. Once I get going I don't think I'll have any complaints about SH4 at all.

1: You come to appreciate what little you had on your dinky little Type VII, considering that you were working with torpedoes that actually worked.
Actually SH3's torpedoes work a little too well. The Germans had similar teething problems in real life.

[Red Devil]

Sailor: on my previous pc, this would load but not even try and run, now (quad core 3gb ram) all smooth sailing.......

[Loud_Silence]

My worst problem in SHIII was late in the war with airplanes. I couldn't reach 5 miles out St. Nazaire when formations of PBYs started to drop bomb rain over me. Sometimes they appeared right above the base!

[Soundman]

Once SH4 came out, I never looked back. SH3 was good, but my biggest problem was maybe I'm just too patriotic and when I would put a U.S. boat under the sea and whoop and holler, I always felt a little guilty rooting for those Nazi f"$&~*s. Yes, I know it's only a game, but the whole time I was playing SH3, I was always wishing to play the American side....and now, we've got it! :yeah: I'll never go back. :salute:

[jazzabilly]

SH4 is wonderful; and when modded (TMO or RFB, always RSRD) I think that it's far superior to SH3. The main thing that SH3 had going for it was the 'progressive difficulty' consistent with the challenge that the U-Boats were presented with later in the war.

I, too loved the switch to fighting for the USN instead of the NAZIs. Canadian though I may be, I would much rather sail under the Stars 'n Stripes than a swastika.

[goggles]

still a loyal sh3 kaleun

sh4 just doesnt compare

for starters your screwd out of 90% of mods without the u boat expansion which is very hard to track down and the supermods availble so far just dont impress me like gwx3 does (no offense to modders out there)

ubi threw realism out the window when they made sh4 i depise the ridicolous explosions and bombastic ship sinking even with mods its still a bit over the top

also sh4 has very steep system requirements i can get sh3 looking almost as good but still run at 60fps where as even with toned down gfx on sh4 i stutter along at 15 fps

oh and as another person said i cant stand the new interface its overly complicated and just not very ergonomic so to speak whereas sh3(with mods) is clean neat and easyily accessible

in order to win my heart sh4 would have to....

a) have the modding community be a little more accepting of those without the uboat expansion overall the modding community needs to age a bit so to speak

b)gwx 4 for sh4 needs to be released

c) i would need a new gfx card for my pc

d)a mod to return us to the sh3 interface
until then im still one of donitz's loyal wolves:arrgh!:

[skookum]

The graphics and effects in SH4 sealed the deal for me. I couldn't dream of playing without transparent water now.

Eye candy aside, I felt more drawn into SH3 than SH4. Can't put my finger on it but SH3 just "felt" more "real". Whereas in SH4, all the elements are there, but it just feels a little administrative. An example, in SH3 you manage the crew by dragging a little man shaped icon (it's actually a man :salute:) into the compartment you wanted him in. In SH4, not only do you not need to manage your crew if don't want to, the icons are simply squares with little generic mugshots in them. Also, clicking on your 3D crew members brought up their functions. I think the SH3 system appealed to the GI Joe kid in me, moving your toy soldiers around, stuff like that.

I play Operation Monsun and enjoy the Atlantic campaigns. Hopefully the GWX team will work some magic and bring back the "feel" i miss so much.

[kiwi_2005]

Both games are fun though :yeah:

Yeah agree. Just when i got manual targeting perfected in sh3, i switched to SH4 when it came out thinking the targeting wont be much different, but its a whole new ball game.

[gmuno]

I liked SHIV so much that i changed back to SHIII. Playing SHIII at 100% gives me more than SHIV.

[Frame57]

I have tried SHIII with mods and found it a bit boring. Although I realize one could go weeks without a target opportunity in real life. Also I disliked having to rest my crew as though i were a baby sitter rather than a sub skipper. I enjoy SH4 much more and the graphics are better IMO.

[Red Devil]

Also I disliked having to rest my crew as though i were a baby sitter rather than a sub skipper.Its the same now, my XO should be running the sub, not me. There was one instance where I had forgotten to cancel battle stations and the sub refused to run; the entire crew were all asleep!!!

[theluckyone17]

I loved SH3, with the exception of the crew management. That drove me crazy. I loved the progressive difficulty, though... knowing that the Germans lost the war, and how spectacularly bad the end of the war was for the Uboats. It presents more of a challenge, psychologically.

That being said, I haven't gotten to play a late war career yet in SH4. Inevitably, someone updates a mod, and I create a new early war career. :hmmm:

[Red Devil]

Its just as well the war ended when it did, as German U Boat development had the giant electric subs on the way. It could have given them the upper hand again as in 40 - 42.

[Rockin Robbins]

Why nobody mentions that SH3 loved to forget your career, especially and most cruelly when you have a couple of weeks of gameplay invested in it is beyond me. I remember there was a long list of things to avoid in saving that would supposedly make this less frequent: no saving near land, with ANYTHING within any kind of sensor range, never under water, must be facing Mecca, wearing garlic necklace, etc. That chased me to SH4 and I've never looked back or lost a career since.

[greyrider]

"Its just as well the war ended when it did, as German U Boat development had the giant electric subs on the way.
It could have given them the upper hand again as in 40 - 42."


even with the type 21 operational, they still had no chance to win, ww2 was just not limited to sea battles, the british, russian and american armies were all over europe,
roaming where ever they pleased, attacking, 360,000 germans surrendered in the ruhr encirclement, no chance after that.

they had thier tigers, panthers, and king tigers, against the junk shermans, still they had no chance.

and as far as the type two one, the american navy by the end of the war was not dependent on depth charges.

the type 21 would have been blown out of the water, by homing torpedoes, and sonobuey triangulation, and i doubt allied technology would have frozen from fear of the 21.


now japan would have been a different matter, japanese didnt surrender like the germans did. the allied armies would have been victorious, but devastated by an invasion of japan,
you have to read the accounts of iwo jima, Peleliu, when the japanese changed thier war tactics, tarawa, these small little islands, little specs on the ocean, my high school was almost as large as tarawa,
but the intensity of these fights was incredible, and the casualties enormous, thier may not have been an allied troop left to declare victory in japan.

japan by far was the tougher enemy, therefore i respect them more, germany didnt need to get nuked to end the war there, japan did.

and to be honest, if i had to fight in a war today, i would rather share a foxhole with a japanese soldier or marine, than a german.

aside from that, i enjoyed both sh3 and sh4.

[Platapus]

Besides post war analysis of the Type XX1 showed some significant design flaws that would have prevented it being the Uber sub so many think.

[theluckyone17]

Why nobody mentions that SH3 loved to forget your career...

Good point, RR.

[Torplexed]

I think what the Type XXI fanboys often forget is that the Allies were already winning simply by routing the vast majority of convoys out of the path of the U-Boats, uber or otherwise. Breaking the codes and reading the Kriegsmarine's mail was what ultimately won the Battle of the Atlantic.

[A Very Super Market]

Christ, this is getting ugly.

[AVGWarhawk]

How was the jump? Imagine if you would a C-130 at 40000# feet. You are at the door of the fuselage and Sgt Slaughter is yelling at you to jump. Just as you leap you spy your parachute on the bench right were you left it:o This is how it felt with SH4 straight out of the box. Currently the corrective patch and 1.5 have afforded you a new parachute already attached to your back. The mods for both the fleet and u boats have made that parachute into a paraglider which is a hell-of-a-lot more fun than just a plain old parachute.

Anyway, there are mods for both u boats and fleets. All are great to use and enjoy. Do not be afraid to jump because the ride now is great and enjoyable. Plus it is something new to play and explore. RSRD/OM are very creative. TMO/RFB are very creative. All the smaller mods that are available make it just that much more enjoyable.

[Rockin Robbins]

Let's put it this way. If you have SH4, you have a supermods choice of Trigger Maru Overhauled, Real Fleet Boat, Run Silent Run Deep (alone or in combination with the two previous), Fall of the Rising Sun, Game Fixes Only, CA 24-F and Operation Monsun.

With SH3 you have GWX, GWX, GWX and GWX.

All other things being equal, the best game experience will come from the healthiest modding scene. SH4 wins hands down in that department with a varied, cooperative and vigorous mod squad.

I'm really interested in details on those Type XXI design flaws. Never read that before. It isn't unexpected, but is a surprise to me.

[goggles]

it wasnt so much design flaws but rather poor workmanship due to rushed production

a very small number passed quality control so to speak most were left in dry dock for more work

constant allied bombing raids on yards and critical material shortages didnt help the type xxi much either:nope:

[Rockin Robbins]

Yup that allied bombing played heck with the production schedules.:haha:

[Torplexed]

According to Clay Blair another design problem with the XXI were the diesel engines. They were fitted with superchargers but the system was so poorly designed and manufactured that the superchargers could not be used. This defect reduced the generated horsepower by almost half: from 2,000 hp to 1,200 leaving the Type XXI badly underpowered. It's top surface speed of 15.6 knots was less than any ocean-going U-Boat built during the war and the reduction in horsepower also substantially increased the time required to carry out a battery charge.

[goggles]

meh my careers rarely last long enough to use the type xxi anyway

type vii/ix are my mainstays


besides its a good change of perspective to be on the losing side its a break from most ww2 games (ive stormed the beachs of normandy about 30x in about 30 different ww2 games)

not many ww2 genre games out there that put you on the losing side (least not for campaign)

[Orion2012]

....must be facing Mecca....

:har:

[jazzabilly]

The Type XXI, as impressive as it was, was incapable of winning the Battle Of The Atlantic. It was the Wolf Packs, and freedom of surface movement that allowed the Germans to be as successful as they were- to come as close as they did to their goal. At the end of the day, it's an impressive boat, but not enough to get the job done.

ULTRA trumps it.

[Platapus]

To me it was the design of the hydraulic systems that doomed the Type XXI.

I think over the years there has been a mystique about the Type XXI being the uber sub. Perhaps Submarine video games have added to this mystique?

The Type XXI was an innovative design and represented some real forward thinking. But it was not a super submarine at all.

[Uber Gruber]

I was going to reply with lots of diatribe that SH3 is more emersive than SH4, that SH3's graphics, although less detailed, seem more real than the comic-book graphics of SH4, how one can be a sub-commander in SH3 whereas one is only a game player in SH4...

Yep, I was gonna post something like that ....but then I decided to go for a walk in the sun instead.

Its a lovely day!

[Dread Knot]

To me it was the design of the hydraulic systems that doomed the Type XXI.

I think over the years there has been a mystique about the Type XXI being the uber sub. Perhaps Submarine video games have added to this mystique?

The Type XXI was an innovative design and represented some real forward thinking. But it was not a super submarine at all.

To be fair, 1944 and 45 in Germany was a lousy time to put a revolutionary sub into production and practice. The Type XXI sub had to be built in modules in separate factories inland and then shipped to the yards to be put together. All at a time when Germany's infrastructure was falling apart and resources becoming scarce. The legendary German Tiger and Panther tanks also had severe teething and production problems but benefitted from being designed a few years earlier before things really started to go downhill.

[Agiel7]

How was the jump? Imagine if you would a C-130 at 40000# feet. You are at the door of the fuselage and Sgt Slaughter is yelling at you to jump. Just as you leap you spy your parachute on the bench right were you left it:o This is how it felt with SH4 straight out of the box. Currently the corrective patch and 1.5 have afforded you a new parachute already attached to your back. The mods for both the fleet and u boats have made that parachute into a paraglider which is a hell-of-a-lot more fun than just a plain old parachute.

Anyway, there are mods for both u boats and fleets. All are great to use and enjoy. Do not be afraid to jump because the ride now is great and enjoyable. Plus it is something new to play and explore. RSRD/OM are very creative. TMO/RFB are very creative. All the smaller mods that are available make it just that much more enjoyable.

Note to self: Never visit this forum on my laptop during a political science lecture :har:

I was sitting all the way in the back of the auditorium, trying to hold back my snickering and I could have sworn my professor was doing this to me ,,l,,

Great to find a forum that has a sense of humor and are remarkably civil in debate.

[AVGWarhawk]

How was the jump? Imagine if you would a C-130 at 40000# feet. You are at the door of the fuselage and Sgt Slaughter is yelling at you to jump. Just as you leap you spy your parachute on the bench right were you left it:o This is how it felt with SH4 straight out of the box. Currently the corrective patch and 1.5 have afforded you a new parachute already attached to your back. The mods for both the fleet and u boats have made that parachute into a paraglider which is a hell-of-a-lot more fun than just a plain old parachute.

Anyway, there are mods for both u boats and fleets. All are great to use and enjoy. Do not be afraid to jump because the ride now is great and enjoyable. Plus it is something new to play and explore. RSRD/OM are very creative. TMO/RFB are very creative. All the smaller mods that are available make it just that much more enjoyable.

Note to self: Never visit this forum on my laptop during a political science lecture :har:

I was sitting all the way in the back of the auditorium, trying to hold back my snickering and I could have sworn my professor was doing this to me ,,l,,

Great to find a forum that has a sense of humor and are remarkably civil in debate.


Just stay away from the General Topic forum:har: Welcome aboard. :yeah:

[Rockin Robbins]

Now I'm going to have to back up Uber Gruber here just a bit. If SH3 didn't have the save game bug, I'd be playing a lot more of it. It is marvelous fun and the graphix style of the game just fits the scene perfectly. It may be less rich graphically, but the flavor is just right, leaving a game that feels authentic. If the save game bug did not exist I would consider SH3 and SH4 co-equal games.

But with the save game deal, it's only safe to play missions and short term setups because the more time you have invested in a career, the more likely you will lose it all. That is VERY demoralizing and has not been fixed.

[Diopos]

...But with the save game deal, it's only safe to play missions and short term setups because the more time you have invested in a career, the more likely you will lose it all. That is VERY demoralizing and has not been fixed.

Exactly how Dönitz felt during the course of the war! So an excellent simulation after all! :D

[Scotty]

[quote=greyrider]
and as far as the type two one, the american navy by the end of the war was not dependent on depth charges.

the type 21 would have been blown out of the water, by homing torpedoes, and sonobuey triangulation, and i doubt allied technology would have frozen from fear of the 21.
Homing torpedos do not work down at 200 meters,


[quote=greyrider] now japan would have been a different matter, japanese didnt surrender like the germans did.

The Japs ssurrendered on the Battleship USS Missouri in Sep 1945 .. what do you call that?


[quote=greyrider] the allied armies would have been victorious, but devastated by an invasion of japan,

Invasion of what... they was beat down and defeted.. good luck on that "what if" Fantasy.


[quote=greyrider]you have to read the accounts of iwo jima, Peleliu, when the japanese changed thier war tactics, tarawa, these small little islands, little specs on the ocean, my high school was almost as large as tarawa,
but the intensity of these fights was incredible, and the casualties enormous, thier may not have been an allied troop left to declare victory in japan.

The Germans didn't have the luxury of hiding in thick jungles and ambushing us Troops, it was motto a motta, face to face.


[quote=greyrider] japan by far was the tougher enemy, therefore i respect them more, germany didnt need to get nuked to end the war there, japan did.
Oh my. You could not be further from the truth.. Germany was the enemy of the allied that was the most feared, thus- that is why there was more effort to defete them. Japn was not even NEAR the threat of Germany...

Germay was Taking on many powerful nations, Japan's only real military threat was the 1/2 the USA, the other 3rd world nations they walked into doesn't count for much.
Germany however after Defeting large powerful nations such as France, still had Great super Powers to deal with up front.. Great Britain, Russia and USA. along with Canada and others. No nations on earth then and now could take on 3 super powers and win, I think the German people did well for having a psyco leader get them into a mess..
As far as having to be nuked to surrender?? Well. at least Germany had the smarts or power "NOT TO GET NUKED".. I mean it was soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Easy for the USA to fly in and just let it drop. something you could not do so easy on Germany.
Japan was so far behnd n technoligy, they could not keep up.. they lacked high altitude performance aircraft... heck they was about the only nation on earth who never had a 400 mph aircraft.. The Ki-84 was the closest and would do 386 mph, only after the war the US pilots took a ki84 turned up the supercharger and got 427 mph.. yet most aircrat would do better with turned up superchargers.
But you get the idea.. the Germans had many 400 plus mph aircraft.. BF109 K = 452 mph, FW190a8 = 408 mph.. Ta-152H = 472 mph, and lets talk about jets... Me-262 = 540 mph, at least Britain and USA had jets..
Germany had to send the Japs a jet to copy and they never got it right.

Japan had to deal with 1/2 of the USA.. just imagine if they had to deal with the 1/2 that was fighting Germany, the massive power of Great Britain (they had dinky numbers in the pacific), and mother Russia..all comming down on them at once..
Japan would had been defeted in 1942 if they had to face what Germany did.

Germany had much more advanced weapons.. Guided Rockets, better tanks, combat jets.. and the list goes on.. although I like the longlance Torpedo Japan had, and the Yamoto class battleships.. Germany was like Space allians in technoligy compared to Japan in the stone age.. it was the Japanese willingness to Kamakazi to death that helped prolong the battle a few months.

And yes the Type 21, would have been a Threat.. look up the two combat patrols that the type 21.. one was in the middle of a convoy, and the other Type21 I believe was in a Sub hunter task group and being hunted.. both went to perascope depth in the middle, lowered scope and went home...when the message came to go home... The Type 21 was just PLAYING with the Allies.. yet the allies could not either detest it, or catch it...
Any other sub and they would either NEVER gotten close or probabaly would have been sunk FAST..
the extra underwater speed, more quiet operation, and more battery life ment the world of a differance.. Although nothing is invincable.. used right, there was no answer to it.. or the two on combat patrols would have been sunk.




[quote=greyrider]and to be honest, if i had to fight in a war today, i would rather share a foxhole with a japanese soldier or marine, than a german.

Everyone to thier own...But this was ovyous you favor Japan over Germany...
They all had there own strengths and weaknesses for the battles they had to face.... I'd rather not share a foxhole with a (at time 1940's) Enemy
But remember, that Germany killed like 6% of US POW's, Japan killed like 27% of US POW's.. I'll go with the odds. on the foxhole share deal,thank you!!
A war of Today, and either one would be great to share a foxhole iwth... unless you just HATE one of them.

Scotty

[Sledgehammer427]

scotty, calm down a little, this is a little off topic.

(and here i am talking like a moderator)

The asian cultures are quite strange, as they favour honor and sacrifice FAR more than us western cultures do (where 50 bucks towards the church is considered a sacrifice.)
We didnt have to drop the A-bomb, truman wanted to rush the finish to avoid more Allied casualties, and we gave the japanese MUCH less time to surrender than you think (that, among the time-zone shift, really confusing)
Also, france gave in to hitler's diplomatic power BEFORE WWII to avoid provoking him. the nazis practically walked into france, who had its guard down.
The Type XXI had many teething problems and probably wouldnt have been completely ready and stable until late 1946, go figure with your what ifs.
also, no matter how good the technology was, it was put into the hands of a deranged, estranged, and absent-minded madman. he had no idea how to use the power at his hands and in the end failed because of his paranoia and inability to lead germany when it started to fall.


as for the transition to SH4, i still play SH3, as i am evenly balanced between the immersion of SHIII and the closer-to-home-ness of SH4:up:
please, people, as a peer, stay on topic a little bit

[Torplexed]

And yes the Type 21, would have been a Threat.. look up the two combat patrols that the type 21.. one was in the middle of a convoy, and the other Type21 I believe was in a Sub hunter task group and being hunted.. both went to perascope depth in the middle, lowered scope and went home...when the message came to go home... The Type 21 was just PLAYING with the Allies.. yet the allies could not either detest it, or catch it...
Any other sub and they would either NEVER gotten close or probabaly would have been sunk FAST..
Yes, and we would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids at Bletchley Park.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EocnQnbBM1I/RkOYACedjmI/AAAAAAAAAOo/jQHfiys9B3w/s320/Scooby-gang-1969.jpg

[Pablo]

Hi!

I think the SH4 game engine has more potential than the SH3 game engine, but playing a U.S. submarine in the Pacific campaign is just not as interesting or challenging to me as playing a German U-boat in the Atlantic campaign, especially if you're trying to match the difficulty level in the game to the historical "story arc" of the war.

Pablo

[owner20071963]

Contrary to everyone here posting on which game is best
The Silent Hunter game is Originally based on German U-Boats
like it or not,
The Original Campaign is The Atlantic
not the Pacific,
The Atlantic Campaign is more challenging,
ever since Silent Hunter 2,
A great game never Forgotten,
Silent Hunter 3 GWX 3.0 Gold brings back that realism
to its best,
the GWX Team Will do what was done to SH3,
make SH4 more Realistic,
Lets enjoy SH3 GWX 3.0 Gold,
and await
Silent Hunter 4 GWX Wolves Of The Atlantic :arrgh!:

[TDK1044]

To me, WWII submarine warfare is synonymous with the cat and mouse drama of the U Boats in the Atlantic. I don't wish to diminish in any way the role of the Fleet Boats in the Pacific, but when you are the Captain of a U boat in appalling weather conditions, and you are trying to set up for an attack on a convoy that you've been tracking for an hour or more, there's a sweaty reality and immersion about that that I never found inthe Fleet Boat game.

[AVGWarhawk]

Contrary to everyone here posting on which game is best
The Silent Hunter game is Originally based on German U-Boats
like it or not,
The Original Campaign is The Atlantic
not the Pacific,

What does this have to do with the price of eggs in China?

[owner20071963]

Contrary to everyone here posting on which game is best
The Silent Hunter game is Originally based on German U-Boats
like it or not,
The Original Campaign is The Atlantic
not the Pacific,
What does this have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Easter Eggs :arrgh!:

[AVGWarhawk]

Quote:
Originally Posted by greyrider
japan by far was the tougher enemy, therefore i respect them more, germany didnt need to get nuked to end the war there, japan did.

Oh my. You could not be further from the truth.. Germany was the enemy of the allied that was the most feared, thus- that is why there was more effort to defete them. Japn was not even NEAR the threat of Germany...

Germay was Taking on many powerful nations, Japan's only real military threat was the 1/2 the USA, the other 3rd world nations they walked into doesn't count for much.
Germany however after Defeting large powerful nations such as France, still had Great super Powers to deal with up front.. Great Britain, Russia and USA. along with Canada and others. No nations on earth then and now could take on 3 super powers and win, I think the German people did well for having a psyco leader get them into a mess..
As far as having to be nuked to surrender?? Well. at least Germany had the smarts or power "NOT TO GET NUKED".. I mean it was soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Easy for the USA to fly in and just let it drop. something you could not do so easy on Germany.
Japan was so far behnd n technoligy, they could not keep up.. they lacked high altitude performance aircraft... heck they was about the only nation on earth who never had a 400 mph aircraft.. The Ki-84 was the closest and would do 386 mph, only after the war the US pilots took a ki84 turned up the supercharger and got 427 mph.. yet most aircrat would do better with turned up superchargers.
But you get the idea.. the Germans had many 400 plus mph aircraft.. BF109 K = 452 mph, FW190a8 = 408 mph.. Ta-152H = 472 mph, and lets talk about jets... Me-262 = 540 mph, at least Britain and USA had jets..
Germany had to send the Japs a jet to copy and they never got it right.

Japan had to deal with 1/2 of the USA.. just imagine if they had to deal with the 1/2 that was fighting Germany, the massive power of Great Britain (they had dinky numbers in the pacific), and mother Russia..all comming down on them at once..
Japan would had been defeted in 1942 if they had to face what Germany did.

Germany had much more advanced weapons.. Guided Rockets, better tanks, combat jets.. and the list goes on.. although I like the longlance Torpedo Japan had, and the Yamoto class battleships.. Germany was like Space allians in technoligy compared to Japan in the stone age.. it was the Japanese willingness to Kamakazi to death that helped prolong the battle a few months.

And yes the Type 21, would have been a Threat.. look up the two combat patrols that the type 21.. one was in the middle of a convoy, and the other Type21 I believe was in a Sub hunter task group and being hunted.. both went to perascope depth in the middle, lowered scope and went home...when the message came to go home... The Type 21 was just PLAYING with the Allies.. yet the allies could not either detest it, or catch it...
Any other sub and they would either NEVER gotten close or probabaly would have been sunk FAST..
the extra underwater speed, more quiet operation, and more battery life ment the world of a differance.. Although nothing is invincable.. used right, there was no answer to it.. or the two on combat patrols would have been sunk.


I think what he meant here was not tougher weapon wise....tougher mentally. Suicide planes, suicide mini-subs, Bonzi attacks. Willing and ready to die(take ones life in the process)for an Emperor that was seen as a God.

[Torplexed]

Contrary to everyone here posting on which game is best
The Silent Hunter game is Originally based on German U-Boats
like it or not,
The Original Campaign is The Atlantic
not the Pacific,
Actually, the original Silent Hunter I was set in the Pacific. That doesn't look like a U-Boat on the box art.

http://images.marketworks.com/hi/5/4830/silent-hunter-bx-f.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

Contrary to everyone here posting on which game is best
The Silent Hunter game is Originally based on German U-Boats
like it or not,
The Original Campaign is The Atlantic
not the Pacific,
What does this have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Easter Eggs :arrgh!:

I guess Owner20071963. Is the reasoning here that SH 2 was the Uboats first so it make it better? :hmmm: It has no bearing at all. Some just like the dark feeling playing the u-boats. Others like the fleets and torpedoing their way to victory. Each are cool in their own way. -shrug-

[TDK1044]

That's the great thing about Silent Hunter 4. Just look at how modable Dan and his team made this game if you have 1.5. People can effortlessly move between a Fleet Boat and a U Boat career and apply superb mods to both games. How awesome is that! :)

[owner20071963]

Contrary to everyone here posting on which game is best
The Silent Hunter game is Originally based on German U-Boats
like it or not,
The Original Campaign is The Atlantic
not the Pacific,
Actually, the original Silent Hunter I was set in the Pacific. That doesn't look like a U-Boat on the box art.

http://images.marketworks.com/hi/5/4830/silent-hunter-bx-f.jpg

You Are wrong
Here is the Original Cover,
It is A German U-Boat,
and Silent Hunter was based on the Atlantic Campaign.
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/6415/silenthunteriicover.jpg
By owner20071963 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/owner20071963) at 2009-03-06



(http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silenthunteriicover.jpg)

[Schroeder]

I think what he meant here was not tougher weapon wise....tougher mentally. Suicide planes, suicide mini-subs, Bonzi attacks. Willing and ready to die(take ones life in the process)for an Emperor that was seen as a God. Actually we had the same. There was a squadron of "Rammjäger" ram fighters that crashed themselves into enemy bombers. There were kamikaze attacks on bridges in the east too.


But I don't see anything positive in that. To me it is just a plain stupid waste of lifes.

[AVGWarhawk]

I think what he meant here was not tougher weapon wise....tougher mentally. Suicide planes, suicide mini-subs, Bonzi attacks. Willing and ready to die(take ones life in the process)for an Emperor that was seen as a God. Actually we had the same. There was a squadron of "Rammjäger" ram fighters that crashed themselves into enemy bombers. There were kamikaze attacks on bridges in the east too.


But I don't see anything positive in that. To me it is just a plain stupid waste of lifes.

For Japan, it was last best effort to protect mainland Japan.

[Fincuan]

You Are wrong
Here is the Original Cover,
It is A German U-Boat,
and Silent Hunter was based on the Atlantic Campaign.]

That is a Silent Hunter II box cover you posted, a game that was indeed placed in the Atlantic theater. Torplexed posted a Silent Hunter box cover, and that is a fleet boat in it because it happens in the Pacific.

What this has to do with the original question of jumping from SH3 to 4 beats me...

[AVGWarhawk]

The first was fleets but again, what does this have to do with "which game is better"? The one you like is better.

[Torplexed]

Maybe it's because it's been so long but I think people forget the original Silent Hunter came out in 1996 and was set in the Pacific. Silent Hunter 2 came out in 2001 and was set in the Atlantic. Followed by SH3 in 2005 and SH4 in 2007.

[AVGWarhawk]

Maybe it's because it's been so long but I think people forget the original Silent Hunter came out in 1996 and was set in the Pacific. Silent Hunter 2 came out in 2001 and was set in the Atlantic.


I still have SH2. Never got past the second patrol...game would crash:88)

[owner20071963]

You Are wrong
Here is the Original Cover,
It is A German U-Boat,
and Silent Hunter was based on the Atlantic Campaign.]
That is a Silent Hunter II box cover you posted, a game that was indeed placed in the Atlantic theater. Torplexed posted a Silent Hunter box cover, and that is a fleet boat in it because it happens in the Pacific.

What this has to do with the original question of jumping from SH3 to 4 beats me...
Just making a point,
Silent Hunter 2 was an Original Great Game,
Lets hope Silent Hunter 5 is based on it,
with Destroyer Command,
Would it not make Silent Hunter 5 Awsome?:arrgh!:

[Torplexed]

Just making a point,
Silent Hunter 2 was an Original Great Game,
Lets hope Silent Hunter 5 is based on it,
with Destroyer Command,
Would it not make Silent Hunter 5 Awsome?:arrgh!:
I was here when SH2 came out. It was roundly slammed in the forum by many as being a failed release with it's bugginess and canned campaign game. I never thought it was quite that bad, but I remember that Sierra's Aces of the Deep was the original great game that everyone revered and worshipped back then. Happily, SH3 came along and saved the subsim franchise. :cool:

[AVGWarhawk]

Just making a point,
Silent Hunter 2 was an Original Great Game,
Lets hope Silent Hunter 5 is based on it,
with Destroyer Command,
Would it not make Silent Hunter 5 Awsome?:arrgh!:
I was here when SH2 came out. It was roundly slammed in the forum as being a failed release with it's bugginess and canned campaign game. I never thought it was quite that bad, but I remember that Sierra's Aces of the Deep was the original great game that everyone revered back then. Happily, SH3 came along and saved the subsim franchise.


Yeah, the crashing on patrol two shelved it for me. I gave SH3 a shot and it was good out of the box. Modding made it all that much better. However, many shelved SH4 because of the bugs. Shame really, it is a great game now with the patches and mods. For the guys who dig the uboats, OM is a great mod and gets great reviews. Players should not deprive themselves of SH4 uboats with OM for the mod to use. Get into the game, get familiar with it. It is a lot of fun if you let it be a lot of fun.

Again, it is all in what you like is the best game for you.

[Rockin Robbins]

Personally I loved SH4 from the beginning. It was clear that any problems were not deal breakers, the game actually remembered my saved games and I was off to the races. SH2, which came well after Silent Hunter and was not the original game, had a static campaign and put everyone in a straight jacket from which the Silent Hunter franchise almost never emerged.

It was only when Ubisoft hired this renegade bunch of Romanians (a bunch of former commies from a 3rd world country are going to make a sub sim? Hahahahahahaha!!!!!), which many were very cruel about, that the franchise was saved by the little group that could. SH3 is loved because it was absolutely revolutionary, just a sandbox to play in with dynamic everything. It fixed the sour looks from SH2 almost overnight and those that made fun of a Romanian development team very quickly bought pom-poms and a short skirt cheerleader outfit. They still looked ugly.

SH4 was not such a total shift of paradigm from SH3 as SH3 was from the lousy SH2. That is why it is looked upon even today with such favor. I don't believe it has a lot to do with the fact that it is about U-Boats. The Romanian dev team blew everything we thought about what a subsim was right on its ear and we've never recovered.

They are why SH3 and SH4 are the greatest submarine simulators on the surface of the planet.

[Scotty]

scotty, calm down a little, this is a little off topic.

(and here i am talking like a moderator)

The asian cultures are quite strange, as they favour honor and sacrifice FAR more than us western cultures do (where 50 bucks towards the church is considered a sacrifice.)
That is well known about sacrifice.. I do not think of the asians as Strange, it is just how they're culture is, and they have more honor to one another than we have in the west.. Yet they lacked humanity to the nin degreee.



We didnt have to drop the A-bomb, truman wanted to rush the finish to avoid more Allied casualties, and we gave the japanese MUCH less time to surrender than you think (that, among the time-zone shift, really confusing)

As for using little boy and Fat man on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, well sure we didn't have to do it... we didn't have to go liberate the small island nations japan took over either... war is all about "should we or should we not!"
The Ja[anese were preparring to go all out war to defend there homeland from a allied invasion, including women and children... I believe the atom bomb saved lives in the long run. MANY MANY lives. two cities got leveled... just imagine the number of US troops killed and even more Japanese civilians casualties/deaths.. many many millions..




Also, france gave in to hitler's diplomatic power BEFORE WWII to avoid provoking him. the nazis practically walked into france, who had its guard down.
I don't think France had there guard down, I mean THEY declardd war on Germany, not Germany on them.. it was France who was the aggresser.. or Should I say started the fight... they should have had thier guard up... they did battle.. it was the Blitz tactics that overwelmed France.




The Type XXI had many teething problems and probably wouldnt have been completely ready and stable until late 1946, go figure with your what ifs.
also, no matter how good the technology was,

I see alot of people here say "Type 21 fanboy" etc and how too many people think the Type 21 was uber and all this crap on how it had lots of problems.. yes it did, but think about this. if the type 21 was over hyped and just another mediocore sub, why did the USA, France, Great Britain and Russia drop thier multi million dollar sub programs like a sack of potatos and copy the Type 21?? heck the USA, Great Britain and Russia actually took some of the actual type 21's and entered them into thier own military service.. the big 3 didn't use or copy any other sub design

The Soviet Navy is known to have operated at least four Type XXIs after the war, U-3515, U-2529, U-3035, and U-3041 which were commissioned B-27, B-28, B-29, and B-30 Experience with these boats led to the development of the Zulu and Whiskey class submarines which were operational from the early 1950s through the mid-1960s

After the war, the U.S. Navy took over two Type XXI U-boats: U-2513 - which had been commanded by U-boat ace Erich Topp - and U-3008. In August 1946 U-2513 began a complete overhaul in Charleston, South Carolina, At the end of September she traveled to Key West, Florida where she underwent six months of evaluation tests in conjunction with the development of submarine and antisubmarine tactics. The results proved the new U-boat would have revolutionized undersea warfare, and led to the development of the Greater Underwater Propulsion Power Program (GUPPY) to modernize U.S. Fleet boars because of the test results. Sent to Portsmouth, New Hampshire, U-2513 was eventually taken out of service in 1949

The Royal Navy operated U-3017 as HMS N41, while the French Navy operated U-2518 as Roland Morillot.

I know the 21's had teething problems, (esp the hydrolic system) and even in great numbers Germany was doomed anyways... they was supost to have a crush depth much over 300 meters, yet tests showed they would fail at 280 or so meters as POW manufacturing processes were not up to codes on weilding and such..
They were rushed out the door.. having the war lasted a few more months I'm sure while back in port after patrols the hulls and such would have been weilded up better and sorted out..
I know the 15 knots surfaced speed is not as good as a type 9's 20 knots... but GB, US and Russa didn't seem to mind using thme after war.. Type 9's could not go far moving 20 knots.. the type 21 with it's small engines at 15 knots would seem to be a good compromide for avg econo fuel saving speed..
it was the underwater speed than means life or death..
Hedge Hogs dropping on you from 200 meters above while moving at 8 knots probabaly will not be enough to get out of the way as those water morters sunk fast..
a Type 21 moving at 15-17 knots 200 meters down. is going to be on the other side of the planet by the time those hedge hog get 200 meters..
Speed really maters when you are trying to survive.. also it would run at top speed over twice as long... and quieter...
I belive the US, Uk, and Russian Navies thought the same things after testing it.



t was put into the hands of a deranged, estranged, and absent-minded madman. he had no idea how to use the power at his hands and in the end failed because of his paranoia and inability to lead germany when it started to fall.

I could not aggree with you more my fellow sub mate.. I could add a few more not very nice words for the mowaked mushtached nutcase, but that is not what this is about..

I don't think the 21 was uber... even from the start of the war, if they had 1300 of them, it would not have changed the outcome.. only prolonged it for 1-2 years at best.... the USA's (as well as many other nations) industial power would have made enough cargo to slip by..
attacks by air by suprise would have been the same for the 21 and the 7's or 9's...
only the submerged attack and defend would have brought the ASW destroyer teams to thier knees.

I think the romantic thing about playing as a German in a simulator, is that Germany was the last nation to battle the USA (my country) with more advanced weapons systems.. since then our technoligy has prevailed and we lose little in combat..
Back them as US troop in a Sherman facing a Panther (let alone a Tiger II) is doomed, eps when he was told he was in the better equipment..
a P-51D pilot out of ammo after flamming a Fw190.. and out running anything that comes up to him, them all a suddem a Me-262 is aprouching from the rear at a 100 mph closing rate!!! This is what makes WWII so interesting.. it's not "tech" lop sided too bad, no "wish em dead" fire and forget weapons like Aim-120 AMRAM,s or Aim9's
No computerized controlled tomahawk missle shot from a Destroyer from 3000 miles to sink a battleship or Mavereck shot from an F-15 to take out a bunker... I've played these in sims and is quite borring..

men back in WWII had would be part of the machine to score, use evasion tactics to escape or "fail to escape" ..etc.

later
scotty

[greyrider]

well well scotty, i love jokers like you, now i could pick apart piece by piece your frantic little post, but the part that strikes me the most, is what you say
about the allies not needing to nuke japan.
you know nothing of pacific combat, nothing, and combat in general.
did you know that after okinawa, as the soldiers and marines were preparing to invade japan, almost to the man they thought they were dead, that they would not survive the invasion.
you know, what i'd love to do with a guy like you with an opinion like you have is to put you in an amtrac or landing craft, and let you be the first man out on a hot beach, then i would love to see the facial expression on your face.
germany was a threat to europe, particularly england, and the english convinced america to take a europe first approach, sorry, that was a european point of view.
any american knew who the real fight was with, as they hurts us pretty good at pearl. the japanese didnt wait around two or three days listening to radio reports of
how bad pearl was before declaring war on the united states, the japanese declared war on the united states by deed, not by opportunity, understand scooty.
you kinda right about me favoring japan over germany, but in my opinion, its right, where i would pee on the swatsticka, i could salute with respect the rising sun,
and dont ever forget, how tough the germans had to be to kill those little jewish kids, and poles, and checks, and russians ,and all the other nations, in the chambers, dont forget it , cause i dont.

you ever been to a jungle scooty? you know what its like? i have. its the most hostile environment in the world, and then there are people shooting at you. you become barbaric in the jungle, you need to to survive

one more thing , did you ever hear of the 442nd rct, an all japanese american army unit, the german army did, much to thier dismay.
here is a link to enlighen you on how the japanese fought, as japanese americans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Regimental_Combat_Team

[Rockin Robbins]

I see alot of people here say "Type 21 fanboy" etc and how too many people think the Type 21 was uber and all this crap on how it had lots of problems.. yes it did, but think about this. if the type 21 was over hyped and just another mediocore sub, why did the USA, France, Great Britain and Russia drop thier multi million dollar sub programs like a sack of potatos and copy the Type 21?? heck the USA, Great Britain and Russia actually took some of the actual type 21's and entered them into thier own military service.. the big 3 didn't use or copy any other sub design
scotty
Stop right there! The US fleet boats actually outperformed the Type XXI with a simple pimp job consisting of optimizing their skin for underwater rather than surface performance in the Guppy program after the war. Yes, they looked ugly then for those of us raised on the beauty of the fleet boat, and they would have not performed as well during the war because the design would have encouraged captains to use the ostrich strategy instead of the yo-yo strategy, but they were a knot or two faster than the Type XXI both underwater and one the surface with better battery life. The US didn't need to copy the Type XXI and didn't. A guppy looks nothing like a Type XXI. The Cavalla would beat any Type XXI and IT was reliable and battle tested. Who knows what demons lurked inside the Type XXI. They never were given the chance to break.

There was never a copy of the Type XXI in the employ of the United States. We didn't need the thing.

Get your facts a little straight before you troll.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/dontfeedthetrolls.gif

[AVGWarhawk]

Play nice all. :salute:

[Torplexed]

Back them as US troop in a Sherman facing a Panther (let alone a Tiger II) is doomed, eps when he was told he was in the better equipment..
There is a story probably apocryphal, about a German tank commander boasting to the Americans who have just captured him that: "Our Tiger tanks are superior to ten of your Sherman tanks...the problem is you damned Americans always have eleven!" The same story would probably apply just as well to the Russian T-34.

Quantity has a quality all it's own. ;)

[surf_ten]

I really enjoyed the SHIII experience - even the bleak I'm gonna to die any time I poke my sub above the waves. But it's the SD/SJ radar advantage of the fleet boat that sold me right away. Not only could I set up great long distanced ambushes, the advance warning I recieved from air threats made me feel perfectly safe operating above the waves. I'm Definately more effective as a Gato/Balao skipper than I was in a Type VII/IX. I mean how can you not love having 6 forward torpedoes tubes and 4 aft torpedoes tubes and boat load of ordnace. My only gripe is the faulty torpedoes themselves. Trigger Maru offers a very nice challenge to the game as well.

[Rockin Robbins]

Excellent point Surf Ten. Every time I'm in a U-Boat, I'm thinking "if I were in my fleet boat instead of this Type IX, I could do" this, that or the other thing that the U-Boat is incapable of.

But that's part of the reason for having a simulator: to compare different equipment. How many times in a fleet boat have you said "if ONLY I had that direct hookup from the TDC to the periscope that the U-Boat had." The irony here is that the fleet boats had it and it isn't modeled, but if it were a legitimate comparison of the capabilities of the two machines, you would have just learned something about the possibilities of using ingenuity to overcome the lack of technical prowess. History is full of examples of less advanced weaponry beating out "superior" foes because their warriors' ingenuity bridged the gap.

[Scotty]

you know nothing of pacific combat, nothing, and combat in general.
But you do right? Were did you get your pacific cambat exp from??


did you know that after okinawa, as the soldiers and marines were preparing to invade japan, almost to the man they thought they were dead, that they would not survive the invasion.
It is commen in war, esp back then, to think your probabaly not going to survive..

you know, what i'd love to do with a guy like you with an opinion like you have
My-My..Lets not get angry heree, I will not sit here and tallk tough sitting behind a computer screen 800-2000 miles away, not going to prove anything. Lets get on the topic, not what we'd like to do to one another who dis-aggrees with our own facts (or lack of on your part).

is to put you in an amtrac or landing craft, and let you be the first man out on a hot beach, then i would love to see the facial expression on your face.

I would not want to be there, but would do my duty if called for it..
Again, what do you know (personally) about this? Geez. sounds like you want me to be shot it.. My feelings are deeply hurt!

understand scooty.you kinda right about me favoring japan over germany, but in my opinion, its right, where i would pee on the swatsticka, i could salute with respect the rising sun,
and dont ever forget, how tough the germans had to be to kill those little jewish kids, and poles, and checks, and russians ,and all the other nations, in the chambers, dont forget it , cause i dont.
I'll keep this civil and no names, but I seems you have a hatered of Germans, and a love of Japan. Everyone has the right to thier own opinion.. Yet I'd pee one the Swastika as I would on the Rising sun flag.. both were evil. Something you lack understanding of.

Now that you opened the politcal can of worms and none has said anything...
Did you know the Japanese killed (torchored) more civilans than Germany. the Japanese killed 10 million chinese civilans alone.. I'm talking civilians.. thats not counting the other small defensless countires they took over and murdered the people. I don't want to hear the jewish crap, we all know it happened, and sit here and hear how we are to forget the chinese civilians who where killed off.
I can understand not liking what the germans did, but to sit here and listen to you not say anything about the netrocities Japan did, and boast about them to boot is sickning..

Yet you sit here and patrionize them. You have the forgive and forget attitude for imperial Japan and what they did, and think we all should all just put the past behind os for Japan, yet you think we should hold a grudge on Germans ... That is your thoughts, but you can't force them on others.. personally I think we are a dif world now and the HATE can't be dragged on, esp for just one evil.




you ever been to a jungle scooty? you know what its like? i have. its the most hostile environment in the world, and then there are people shooting at you. you become barbaric in the jungle, you need to to survive

But you do right? Were did you get your jungle exp from?? Don't tell me Iraq, and Vietnam is not the same as WW2... I seriously doupt you have been in WW2, so please don't act like someone else knows nothing and you do... none of us here have been there,,, I know people who have, and so maybe have you, lets keep it at that.
I have been shot at in real life if tha makes you feel better (I don't wish that same for you)... but not in militqary combat, not in the pacific either.


one more thing , did you ever hear of the 442nd rct, an all japanese american army unit, the german army did, much to thier dismay.
here is a link to enlighen you on how the japanese fought, as japanese americans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Regimental_Combat_Team
who cares, our debate here is te effectivness of millitary power of Japan vs Germany, or who posed the biggest threat. not bring up symphony for Japan and hate for Germany.. We both are getting of topic here.

[old_tex]

What transpired in the 1930s and 1940s is over. The idiology was different then for all countries. German, after WWI had lost all national respect, thanks to the dealings of the Allies after the WWI. (There was no Marshall Plan). They were looking for a panacea to move their economy and Hitler was there at the right time. Too bad he was misguided.
Japan had ideas of empire building and Britain, with its colonialism, was a thorn is Japan's side. The opium tradeof the early 1900s, a cash cow for all the anglo countries, (Yes, USA included) created greedy robber barons in the USA and Britain. Each fought over China and wanted to open the Far East. Japan wanted Asia for Asians. Finally, unable to sustain their industial base without raw materials from the US, when FDR finally cut off oil shipments, Japan was forced to move south into the Dutch Indies. To stop the US from intervening, Yamamoto's plan to disable the Pacific fleet was adopted. That "woke the sleeping giant."
By the way, there would not have been a Viet Nam if Ho Chi Minh's plea for a unified Viet Nam had been adopted at the end of WWII. However, because the French had holdings in SE Asia, the "honorable" thing to do was to give it back to the French. Thus started "Terry and the Pirates" and all that mess. Also, when the French were defeated in 1954, the USA subsidized the effort to the tune of $1 Billion a year. Nothing ever changes. Look at today. And, by the way, I am a Viet Nam Vet. I wrote a blank check to the USA. Just glad it never was cashed. :up: Old_tex

[Rockin Robbins]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/popcorn.gif

[greyrider]

"I would not want to be there,"

thats what i thought

"but would do my duty if called for it.."

i doubt it


"Again, what do you know (personally) about this? "

panama

"Geez. sounds like you want me to be shot it.."

nope


"My feelings are deeply hurt!"

tough!, i dont care about your feelings

[Sledgehammer427]

hey RR pass the popcorn will ya?

lol

I said my bit, and I think scottys gona duke this one out.
he seems to bring out combat experience a lot.
Video games, with the high-tech graphics, and advanced storylines, can actually immerse you in the combat environment.
i may not have landed on D-day, but you can bet i can feel for some of those men.
we all know what it was like, withering gunfire, mortars, and all sorts of crazy things happening.
he talks of doing his duty.
read Jarhead (dont watch the movie) and tell me what serving your country is like..

RR...popcorn?

[Scotty]

panama


oh my, what on green earth does Panama have anything to do with the Japanese run Death marches in the jungles of Eastern Asia back in the 1940's???

you fell sorry for White Caucasan Jews of Europe in WW2 Germany, but tend to dishonr the Asians who suffered in the Hands of Imerial Japan in the 30's and 40's.
I know personally I'm not fan of Red china, but one needs to remember what Japan did to the people over there.. Just becasue they are Chinese and not white jews, doesn't mean we need to forget history as you seem to want us to think.

If you google hard enough you may find your home at some kkk site.

I seems I keep beating the dead horse about Japans netrocites,

it was only at the order of Hitler and his henchmen that the holocust happened, for the most part the commen citizen and German solder didn't have any say so in who was to be shot or put in concentration camps, yet the commen Japanese solder in WW2 took pride in raping, tourchering and butchering helpless citizens of China and the eastern countries it took over..
So you go ahead with what your donhg, and worship imperial Japan, and hate on the Germans.
Your allowed your racist opinion

Scotty

[joegrundman]

time out? please?

@ RR, i think you overstate the corrupt savegame problem in SH3. It was never more than a minor inconvenience. Lord knows I've played a lot of that game and had exactly two corrupt saves. I've also played SH4 a good deal too, but not nearly as much, and had exactly 1 corrupt save.

[AVGWarhawk]

OK, the last half of this has nothing to do with the original post.