U-995 in Laboe, Germany sidetrip

[Onkel Neal]

This thread for questions and planning of the sidetrip to see U-995, on Sept 16, the day before the Subsim meet in Copenhagen.

[nikimcbee]

What other (additional) things are there to see in that area?

[Lurchi]

U-995 in Laboe is really on the way to Denmark. If i drive to Copenhagen then it wouldn't be a problem to drive there after picking some guys up at the airport.

U-995 is just 50 meters away from the Naval Monument at Laboe which contains a historical museum so it is just logical to visit it too as you can buy a combined ticket for both the sub and the museum. The view from the top of the monument over the Kiel Bay is pretty nice.

Visitors to Hamburg also should consider to visit U-434, a soviet cold war "Tango" -class Diesel submarine: http://www.u-434.de/

[Onkel Neal]

Thanks for the info Lurchi!

And for the offer to ferry some of us. What kind of car do you own? One of these?



http://www.cosmopolitancoach.com/gallery/ShuttleBus.jpg


Wouldn't that be nice :haha:

Looking like Plan B and Hamburg is shaping up nicely. You cannot imagine how long I've wanted to travel to Laboe... :shucks:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

U-995 doesn't have any sliding glass doors does it?:timeout:

[nikimcbee]

Whoa, is there a ferry that travels between the 2 cities? Now that would be cool! just an Idea.

[Onkel Neal]

Whoa, is there a ferry that travels between the 2 cities? Now that would be cool! just an Idea.

That would be the Rodby ferry. (http://www.ferrysavers.co.uk/rodby.htm) If we go by car, this will save about 2 hours travel time over train.

[Lurchi]

Thanks for the info Lurchi!

And for the offer to ferry some of us. What kind of car do you own? One of these?



http://www.cosmopolitancoach.com/gallery/ShuttleBus.jpg


Wouldn't that be nice :haha:

Looking like Plan B and Hamburg is shaping up nicely. You cannot imagine how long I've wanted to travel to Laboe... :shucks:
LOL! Naaaa, this isn't Texas you know - where everyone has two of those for their weekly shopping tour ;).
Three additional persons should be possible i would say, as long as they don't take half of their household with them. I am not sure what car i will have by then as i am planning to get a new one next week and haven't decided between the larger and smaller yet :oops:. A trip to Copenhagen would make a nice Autobahn test for it so you may check your insurances and make your testaments:88);).

U-996 is free of any glass doors if i remember correctly and i am unsure if it is allowed to go up to the conning tower. The whole sub looks "friendlier" in comparison to the one in "Das Boot" because of the fresh painting and the better lighting. There is also a possibility that it will be somewhat crowded as it will be summer with lots of tourists. But the sub is certainly worth a visit!

The shortest trip from Laboe to Copenhagen contains a ~ 1 hour ferry tour between Puttgarden and Rödby. I am not aware of a direct ferry to Copenhagen - the ones i know go to Sweden and Norway.

[Carotio]

The ferry Rødby-Puttgarten carries both the cars and train passengers, and it's about 1 hour.

The only ferry travelling to and from Kiel to a Danish port was to Bagenkop on the island of Langeland, but the route has been closed down AFAIR, besides it would not be a convenient route.

So as I see it, there are three choices for Kiel-Copenhagen:

1) by car, over the Rødby-Puttgarten ferry

2) by train, also over Rødby-Puttgarten

3) by train up through Jutland, over Funen, across the Great Belt Bridge and tunnel and over Sealand ending up in Copenhagen. It's a longer route, but you'll see more.

With few members, the car option may be good, but with a larger number, I would suggest the train option as the most cosy way to travel for a group. Besides, there MAY be group discounts, but I don't know it for sure.

[Hitman]

The main problem to visit U-995, as I see it, is that we would need the full day to go there and back from Copenhagen. That means that we should be in our hotel at Copenhagen the night of the 15th, then spend the whole 16th going to Laboe, visit the museum and back. We could rent one or several cars for this.

The other alternative is flying to Hamburg, then going to Copenhagen and visit U-995 on the way, as Neal suggests. The problem for this alternative is that you would either need to go back to Hamburg to pick your flight when the meeting is over, or have your return flight start from Copenhagen, which is usually more expensive.

Last but not least, Hamburg has many less combinations as it is a smaller Airport than Copenhagen, and for example there are no direct flights from Madrid or Barcelona to Hamburg, so I would need to pick at least 3 flights to arrive there :doh:

I'm inclined to think that the best alternative is therefore making a full day trip and back from Copenhagen. Only that way we will have a relaxed visit and be able to enjoy everything plus then start the meeting the 17th perfectly on schedule :yep:

[Skybird]

What other (additional) things are there to see in that area?

As I said, Kiel itself is not a touristic hotspot. It is an administrative center, and many people say you see that. But in the vicinity of it is this:

http://www.freilichtmuseum-sh.de/

Maybe not too interesting for international subsimmer's meetings, but just because you asked, Nik.

We visited that place twice when I was at elementary school in the late 70s, and I liked to be there. If I still would like it today, I honestly cannot say.

It is an open air museum of ancient farms and the way they used to run a village in the old days.



Attractive places in that northern part of Germany are the old town of Lübeck, of course, then the old town of Wismar (a mini-version of Lübeck), and Hamburg itself, although I did not spend too much time there to say that I really know it, I always was in a hurry. Flensburg also gets mentioned, but I don't know that, too. My urgent recommendation would be Lübeck. Those of you travelling by car should consider to take their time travelling the countryside - Schleswig-Holstein is not the most ugly part of Germany, especially the landscape along the coasts can be very idyllic. But the Hanseatic flair you maybe only get when taking some more time than just rushing in and out in one or two days.

Running to Kiel from Kopenhagen and back in one day, or moving from Hamburg to Kopenhagen and drop into Kiel while enroute, sounds like typical travelling stress to me. ;) Take the possibility into account to reconsider those plans. Maybe that day moving around is better spend stationary - to discover the place of your ultimate destination more indepth - or is Kopenhagen and surrounding that unattractive? ;) That's what I would do when being in your place. But maybe that's just me.

[Onkel Neal]

I'm inclined to think that the best alternative is therefore making a full day trip and back from Copenhagen. Only that way we will have a relaxed visit and be able to enjoy everything plus then start the meeting the 17th perfectly on schedule :yep:

That works fine for me. :salute: I can see the total time in the car would be less for us Americans if we land in Copenhagen the morning of the 16th and take a trip to Laboe by car, meet up with the German and Euro members who are driving in and then return to Cop.

[nikimcbee]

Nix the ferry idea, it dawned on me you can't see the country from the ferry.:06:

[Skybird]

Your Hamburg plan might be better, Neal.

I just checked with Google Earth.

Kobenhavn - Laboe, if taking the trip by car via Fehmarn ferry, would be around 260 km road-distance, 18-20 of it would be passing the Fehmarn belt by ferry, which consumes a lot of time for those 20 km: waiting for ferry, get on ferry, ferry travels, get off ferry. Leaves you with 240 km on land. Of these, practically all distance you have to do on German soil would NOT be the Autobahn, but smaller (and slower) Land- and Bundesstrassen. I do not know the Danish road indices, whether they are highways or not. But in germany it is not a 130+ km/h flight you would do. I would estimate the total time you spend for one trip 3-5 hours, if you do not have to wait for the ferry, do not lose orientation, always pick the right road. Multiply by two, for you want to drive back to Kobenhavn, too.

The road-distance airport Hamburg - Laboe is close to 100 km, almost all of it Autobahn. If all goes well and traffic plays ball, 1 hour.

Does not compare! ;)


Edit:
And on the idea of a train travel, I checked German railway information. The train goes from Kiel down to Lübeck, from there to Fehmarn island, then the ferry, and Denmark. Time: 5:20 and more, 2-4 changes, there is no highspeedtrain available.

Train from Hamburg Central station to Kiel Central station: 1,5 hours railtime. The rail station in Hamburg is 8 km from the airport, direct line. The station in Kiel is at the southern dead end of the bay, Laboe is on the bay's northern opening to the sea. All in all from Hamburg airport to Laboe probably 2,5-3 hours, waiting times not included.

[Onkel Neal]

So, you're saying land in Hamburg, drive autobahn to Laboe, about an hour, then drive to Copenhagen via the ferry or the long way?

We would still have to factor in the return to Hamburg at the end of the trip.

[Skybird]

No flights to the US from Copenhagen?

This is what I would do if needing to arrove from america:

US-Hamburg, plane
Hamburg-Kiel, rail or car/Autobahn
Kiel - Kopenhagen via rail (more relaxed travelling than with car)
Kopenhagen-US.

Since I do not like cars, I would do it all by rail. Via the eastern route (Fehmarn ferry), it seems you do not win or lose much time when using car or railway, but for a group it is the more relaxd way to travel)

An alternative for some Europeans may be to land at Lübeck, a smaller regional airport with flights schedules to Dublin, London Stanssted, Mailand, Frankfurt Hahnau (that is at Frankfurt but is not Frankfurt International!!!), and at least in the past: Barcelona and Alicante (I think that was cancleed some time ago, I'm not sure). From Lübeck via train to kopenhagen, meeting the visitors from Laboe returning to Denmark in Lübeck when they have to switch trains in Lübeck anyway, or going from Lübeck to Laboe and meeting the group there. - The idea is that interested people go early and have some time in Lübeck/Old Town, one day or so. One would hate to miss that place. It's the most beautiful city in all Germany's north. Plus the world's capital for marcipane production. :)

[Lurchi]

Train sucks - and if you are more relaxed in it much depends on your own personality.

I took enough trains to be cured for the rest of my life. I prefer a car with music and air conditioning. The ride from Hamburg to Copenhagen via train takes about 8 hours - good night then. I calculate 7 hours from Wilhelmhaven to Kopenhagen with a car ... and this is double the distance Hamburg-Copenhagen.

With a train you also still have a problem to reach Laboe, so additional costs for taxi or bus. Then you also have to go back to Kiel to board the train again. Now, if you want to visit Laboe before the meet in Kopenhagen, then taking the train makes no sense to me. You may consider the train going back to Hamburg though - after the meeting.

If you fill all places in a car it is also cheaper than train and the Autobahnen in the north aren't so crowded anyway if you manage to get past Hamburg ...

Visiting Lübeck is an option on the way back but i personally would prefer to miss it and take the long way through Denmark instead across the Belt Bridges to see more of its countryside ...

[Hitman]

Plus the world's capital for marcipane production. :)

No that is Toledo!!! :wah:

The main problem I see is landing in Hamburg or Lübeck as you say. To do that I need to take one or even two extra flights, and that also means a lot of time conmuting, waiting, etc. Plus I hate to have to conmute between planes, as it would not be the first time I miss the second flight :damn:

I still believe that the best option at least for me will be to arrive at Copenhagen the 15th and then departy early the 16th to Laboe using the shortest way, preferably renting a car and sharing it with some other guys to make the trip more enjoyable.

[mapuc]

I'm coming too

My trip will be easy
take my car to Trelleborg, park it there. take the TT-line to Travemünde and from there the bus to Kiel and U 995

The ferry will not cost me anything. My neighbour is working on of those boats

Or I may take the train from Cph to Rodby and from there the ferry to Puttgarden.

Markus

[Skybird]

The ride from Hamburg to Copenhagen via train takes about 8 hours - good night then.
Let'S not exaggerate.

Hamburg - Kopenhagen: 4:46

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?revia=yes&existOptimizePrice=1&trip-type=single&S=Hamburg&REQ0JourneyStopsZ0A=1&Z=Kopenhagen+Hbf&REQ0JourneyStopsZID=A%3D1@O%3DKopenhagen+Hbf@X%3D1 2564456@Y%3D55672335@U%3D80@L%3D008601309@B%3D1@p% 3D1235503192@&date=Sa%2C+26.09.09&time=06%3A00&timesel=depart&returnTimesel=depart&optimize=1&travelProfile=-1&adult-number=1&children-number=0&infant-number=0&tariffTravellerType.1=E&tariffTravellerReductionClass.1=0&tariffTravellerAge.1=&qf-trav-bday-1=&tariffClass=2&start=1&qf.bahn.button.suchen=%3CSPAN%3ESearch%3C%2FSPAN%3 E


Hamburg-Kiel: 1:16

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?revia=yes&existOptimizePrice=1&trip-type=single&S=Hamburg&Z=Kiel&date=Sa%2C+26.09.09&time=06%3A00&timesel=depart&returnTimesel=depart&optimize=1&travelProfile=-1&adult-number=1&children-number=0&infant-number=0&tariffTravellerType.1=E&tariffTravellerReductionClass.1=0&tariffTravellerAge.1=&qf-trav-bday-1=&tariffClass=2&start=1&qf.bahn.button.suchen=%3CSPAN%3ESearch%3C%2FSPAN%3 E


Kiel - Kopenhagen 5:08, 5:27

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?revia=yes&existOptimizePrice=1&trip-type=single&S=Kiel&REQ0JourneyStopsZ0A=1&Z=Kopenhagen+Hbf&REQ0JourneyStopsZID=A%3D1@O%3DKopenhagen+Hbf@X%3D1 2564456@Y%3D55672335@U%3D80@L%3D008601309@B%3D1@p% 3D1235503192@&date=Sa%2C+26.09.09&time=06%3A00&timesel=depart&returnTimesel=depart&optimize=1&travelProfile=-1&adult-number=1&children-number=0&infant-number=0&tariffTravellerType.1=E&tariffTravellerReductionClass.1=0&tariffTravellerAge.1=&qf-trav-bday-1=&tariffClass=2&start=1&qf.bahn.button.suchen=%3CSPAN%3ESearch%3C%2FSPAN%3 E


Lübeck - Kiel 1:12

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?revia=yes&existOptimizePrice=1&trip-type=single&S=L%FCbeck&Z=Kiel&date=Sa%2C+26.09.09&time=06%3A00&timesel=depart&returnTimesel=depart&optimize=1&travelProfile=-1&adult-number=1&children-number=0&infant-number=0&tariffTravellerType.1=E&tariffTravellerReductionClass.1=0&tariffTravellerAge.1=&qf-trav-bday-1=&tariffClass=2&start=1&qf.bahn.button.suchen=%3CSPAN%3ESearch%3C%2FSPAN%3 E


Lübeck - Kopenhagen 4:05

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?revia=yes&existOptimizePrice=1&trip-type=single&S=L%FCbeck&Z=Kopenhagen&date=Sa%2C+26.09.09&time=06%3A00&timesel=depart&returnTimesel=depart&optimize=1&travelProfile=-1&adult-number=1&children-number=0&infant-number=0&tariffTravellerType.1=E&tariffTravellerReductionClass.1=0&tariffTravellerAge.1=&qf-trav-bday-1=&tariffClass=2&start=1&qf.bahn.button.suchen=%3CSPAN%3ESearch%3C%2FSPAN%3 E


Hamburg - Lübeck 0:40

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?revia=yes&existOptimizePrice=1&trip-type=single&S=Hamburg&Z=L%FCbeck&date=Sa%2C+26.09.09&time=06%3A00&timesel=depart&returnTimesel=depart&optimize=1&travelProfile=-1&adult-number=1&children-number=0&infant-number=0&tariffTravellerType.1=E&tariffTravellerReductionClass.1=0&tariffTravellerAge.1=&qf-trav-bday-1=&tariffClass=2&start=1&qf.bahn.button.suchen=%3CSPAN%3ESearch%3C%2FSPAN%3 E

[Onkel Neal]

The ferry Rødby-Puttgarten carries both the cars and train passengers, and it's about 1 hour.

The only ferry travelling to and from Kiel to a Danish port was to Bagenkop on the island of Langeland, but the route has been closed down AFAIR, besides it would not be a convenient route.

So as I see it, there are three choices for Kiel-Copenhagen:

1) by car, over the Rødby-Puttgarten ferry

2) by train, also over Rødby-Puttgarten

3) by train up through Jutland, over Funen, across the Great Belt Bridge and tunnel and over Sealand ending up in Copenhagen. It's a longer route, but you'll see more.

With few members, the car option may be good, but with a larger number, I would suggest the train option as the most cosy way to travel for a group. Besides, there MAY be group discounts, but I don't know it for sure.

2) by train, also over Rødby-Puttgarten There is a train that takes the direct route across the Fehmarn bay?? (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Mitchellsgade,+1568+Copenhagen,+Denmark&daddr=rodby,+denmark+to:Puttgarden+Fehmarn,+Osthol stein,+Schleswig-Holstein,+Germany+to:laboe+germany&geocode=&hl=en&mra=ls&sll=54.605483,11.332397&sspn=1.142234,3.55957&ie=UTF8&ll=54.680183,11.480713&spn=1.140137,3.55957&z=9) Are you sure?

[Onkel Neal]

Plus the world's capital for marcipane production. :)

No that is Toledo!!! :wah:

The main problem I see is landing in Hamburg or Lübeck as you say. To do that I need to take one or even two extra flights, and that also means a lot of time conmuting, waiting, etc. Plus I hate to have to conmute between planes, as it would not be the first time I miss the second flight :damn:

I still believe that the best option at least for me will be to arrive at Copenhagen the 15th and then departy early the 16th to Laboe using the shortest way, preferably renting a car and sharing it with some other guys to make the trip more enjoyable.

I'm beginning to think that is the simplest idea for Americans, too. We can arrive Copenhagen on the morning of the 16th, hook up with you and other people who want to come 1 day early and drive to Laboe. There we can meet our German comrades, visit U-995 and the museum, pay our respects to the fallen U-bootmenn, and then all journey back to Copenhagen to being the meeting on the 17th. :hmmm:

Train or car, I prefer car, but either is fine. We could use the ferry and save a bit of time over the train, right?

[Onkel Neal]

I'm coming too

My trip will be easy
take my car to Trelleborg, park it there. take the TT-line to Travemünde and from there the bus to Kiel and U 995

The ferry will not cost me anything. My neighbour is working on of those boats

Or I may take the train from Cph to Rodby and from there the ferry to Puttgarden.

Markus

It will be terrific to see you again, Marcus, you are a veteran of these meetings.

Neal

[Skybird]

There is a train that takes the direct route across the Fehmarn bay?? (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Mitchellsgade,+1568+Copenhagen,+Denmark&daddr=rodby,+denmark+to:Puttgarden+Fehmarn,+Osthol stein,+Schleswig-Holstein,+Germany+to:laboe+germany&geocode=&hl=en&mra=ls&sll=54.605483,11.332397&sspn=1.142234,3.55957&ie=UTF8&ll=54.680183,11.480713&spn=1.140137,3.55957&z=9)Are you sure?That is true. The routes I linked all go over that ferry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogelfluglinie

Since German Railway lists this route as default, it is the faster one (faster than going North and over land and then do the island-hopping). Prices for one way ticket vary from 63 to 88 euros, depending on the train(s) you take. 0-3 changes. Ironically, the trip with 3 changes is the fastest (5:08).

There might be another alternative: renting a small bus with driver. Somebody in Denmark would have to check the prices for that. If the group is big enough, and while train tickets already would cost the single person around 140 Euros for moving there and back, it might be an alternative for you.

You really want to jump off the airplane on the 16th, then embark on the Kiel trip the same day, move back to Kopenhagen, again the same day, and then continue with the meeting the next day? Sounds like stress, pure stress, Neal. ;)

[Carotio]

Yes, Neal, I'm sure as Skybird also wrote. I used to make a trip to Lübeck once, and I'm pretty sure the train embarked the ferry.

I also think it can be a stress day, but then again how many times does one have the option to go to Laboe as someone living far away. I live relatively close, so I'm not sure I will participate in that one-day trip, but if you really wanna go, then do it.

As Skybird suggested, I have visited the homepage for Avis, a rental office. One of many, I have to say. But just as an example.

3 screencaps below.

You'll see on the map that you have about 163 km between Copenhagen Airport (Kastrup Lufthavn) and Rødbyhavn:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/Subsim/krak.jpg

And the prizes for vans:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/Subsim/avis.jpg

For the 9 person van, more in detail:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/Subsim/avis2.jpg

That is 2,122 DKK for the rent and the first 100 km. Extra km is 3.60 DKK. And the route in Denmark is ((163+163)-100) = 226 km * 4.50 DKK = 1017 DKK + 2,122 DKK = 3139 DKK. Then you also have the extra km in Germany. But sofar it's 348,78 DKK per person in the van.

[Hitman]

There might be another alternative: renting a small bus with driver. Somebody in Denmark would have to check the prices for that. If the group is big enough, and while train tickets already would cost the single person around 140 Euros for moving there and back, it might be an alternative for you.


Ohhh yes that is fantastic idea :yeah:

We get rid of the need to meet the exact schedule of the train, and we get full service from the airport or hotel to Laboe and back. Even if it costs as much as the train or more I think that would be really worth it!!!
Plus the people who arrive with jet-lag can have a sleep during the trip if they feel so

Let us list all people who would be interested in that, and then we can see if someone from Danemark can rent the bus for all of us.

Many thanks for the input Skybird :up: :up:

[Skybird]

That I will not attend the meeting in Copenhagen does not mean that I could not assist from the distance, where possible.

I looked up the web for offers of bus companies to get an idea of how much it would cost, but they gave no clues on it - somebody in Denmark better files a local company around Copenhagen a request with date and destination, they then will reply with a cost offer. I have no idea what it would be like.

The ferries over the belt go twice an hour, the passage lasts ~50 minutes. That is for cars AND trains, of course. Roadkilometers from ferry to Laboe is ~100km, almost nothing of that is Autobahn, most is Land- and Bundestrasse. You need to orientate yourself, and need to find your way around and in Kiel's north. Depending on traffic, before you can embark on the parking lot at Laboe museum give those 100km 2-3 hours. Third, add the Danish side of the trip, I don'T know what kind of road you can move on from ferry to Kopenhagen. Since the road-distance is even more, also give it let'S say 2 hours minimum. I think you should not expect to make the trip anywhere below 5-5,5 hours minimum if going with car yourself. The shortest train trip is 5:08, the other train options with less changes are around 5,5 to 5,75 hours.

That is 11 hours of riding car or train in Kopenhagen and Kiel, all in one day. Add the arrival time for those just embarking from plane. Add jetlag. Add the time you spend in Laboe.

If I were you, I would add the 15th september to the whole timetable for the operation. Such stunts like planned so far I found inviting when I was at school. I would not like them anymore these days. Guys, some of you travel around half the globe - and then you just want to run around in a stressing hurry, not having one minute to relax, take a breath and come to your senses, seing where you are...? ;) This is not the sprint at the Olympics, but it is your money... Take some more time. ;) ;) ;)

[Hitman]

and then you just want to run around in a stressing hurry, not having one minute to relax, take a breath and come to your senses, seing where you are...? ;)

What better mood to enter a 1944 Type VIIC U-Boat? :haha:

Wouldn't amaze me if at the yell of Alaaaaaaaaaaarmmmmm during the visit, all of us instinctively run to the forward compartment leaving the museum guide astonished :har:

[gandalf71]

Hi Guys,

good to hear that you consider to visit U-995 in Laboe during this years´ SubSim Meeting, really hope that I´ll make it there to meet you.

One of your questions was, what might be interesting in the vicinity of U-995 right? Depending on how much time you can afford, there are several interesting places to go, so that area makes perhaps also sense for a complete future European Subsim Meeting.

POIs I know in that area, but have not visited all of them till now

- Marine Ehrenmal (Navy Cenotaph) with attached Museum - directly vis-á-vis of the U-995, is certainly a must go. Many interesting exhibits e.g. the open "Torpedovorhalterechner" (TDC) of U-995, screw of german cruiser "Prinz Eugen" (glows in the dark by itself ... just kidding!), many flags and historical information, tons of models.

- U-Boot Ehrenmal (U-Boat Memorial) Möltenort - roughly 5km away from U-995. All names of German U-Boat men who died in WW1 and WW2 and also the men who died on U-Hai (former U-2365). Those who´ve played SH3 with GWX expansion know that memorial next to the waterline.

- HDW wharf (Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems) in Kiel - ca. 15km away from U-995, it´s the place where the current german submarines are built. It is possible to get guided tours but we maybe need the support of an organization e.g. like the DMB (Deutscher Marine Bund, German Navy Association) to get the permission for such a visit

- sewer ports Kiel-Holtenau - entrance to Kiel canal - many big ships on travel

and in a bigger circle:

- U-11 (Type 205) in Burgstaaken (Fehmarn) - roughly 80km from Kiel (lies next to the way to Rodby ferry) - open as a museum

- "U-434" (Russian Tango class submarine) in Hamburg - ca. 100km from Kiel

- Marineschule Flensburg-Mürwik (Naval Academy) - ca. 100km from Kiel - museum and library, many historic uniforms, history of the german navy. This academy is still part of german naval officers education and all U-Boot officers went through that school. It was also the seat of government of Adm. Dönitz in the last days of WWII.
Open to public only on Tuesday afternoons and closed due to renovation until June 2009 (doesn´t matter though)

And last but not least there is a very cozy and rural countryside around Kiel with many lakes, good for a short holiday trip e.g. for cycling.
Hamburg also has many more interesting places to go, as you can expect from Germany´s 2nd largest city.

If you have questions or are in need of any support organzing things, don´t hesitate to contact me.

Cheers,
Michael

P.S.:

Many thanks to Neal! For this fabulous Subsim coffe mug, it reached me on Saturday!:rock:

[Onkel Neal]

That I will not attend the meeting in Copenhagen does not mean that I could not assist from the distance, where possible.

I looked up the web for offers of bus companies to get an idea of how much it would cost, but they gave no clues on it - somebody in Denmark better files a local company around Copenhagen a request with date and destination, they then will reply with a cost offer. I have no idea what it would be like.

The ferries over the belt go twice an hour, the passage lasts ~50 minutes. That is for cars AND trains, of course. Roadkilometers from ferry to Laboe is ~100km, almost nothing of that is Autobahn, most is Land- and Bundestrasse. You need to orientate yourself, and need to find your way around and in Kiel's north. Depending on traffic, before you can embark on the parking lot at Laboe museum give those 100km 2-3 hours. Third, add the Danish side of the trip, I don'T know what kind of road you can move on from ferry to Kopenhagen. Since the road-distance is even more, also give it let'S say 2 hours minimum. I think you should not expect to make the trip anywhere below 5-5,5 hours minimum if going with car yourself. The shortest train trip is 5:08, the other train options with less changes are around 5,5 to 5,75 hours.

That is 11 hours of riding car or train in Kopenhagen and Kiel, all in one day. Add the arrival time for those just embarking from plane. Add jetlag. Add the time you spend in Laboe.

If I were you, I would add the 15th september to the whole timetable for the operation. Such stunts like planned so far I found inviting when I was at school. I would not like them anymore these days. Guys, some of you travel around half the globe - and then you just want to run around in a stressing hurry, not having one minute to relax, take a breath and come to your senses, seing where you are...? ;) This is not the sprint at the Olympics, but it is your money... Take some more time. ;) ;) ;)


Thanks, Sky, for the details.

Hitman, et all, how does this sound?

Americans leave Monday 14th and fly into Copenhagen on early morning in Tuesday 15th. One day to rest up, see a little of the town, and get plenty of rest that night and solve the jet lag. Then we rise early Weds 16th, take the train OR rent a van to Laboe, across the excellent ferry. See U-995, meet up with German and other western Euro members who are driving in. Then we take the train/van back OR ride back with people who have cars. If there are two or three Euro drivers, we probably will not need the train on the return trip.

We have plenty of time to finalize this, we will have better idea of who is driving in, and we can get exact train schedules. We could rent a car/bus in Cop. and drive to Laboe as a group, but then we will need to return it. If we have enough drivers meeting us at Laboe, it could save money and be more fun to train/driver.

McBeck is our Danish rep.and Carotio can also be our Danish point man. Sounds like Skybird, Gandalf and Lurchie could be excellent German liasons.

[Onkel Neal]

Yes, Neal, I'm sure as Skybird also wrote. I used to make a trip to Lübeck once, and I'm pretty sure the train embarked the ferry.

I also think it can be a stress day, but then again how many times does one have the option to go to Laboe as someone living far away. I live relatively close, so I'm not sure I will participate in that one-day trip, but if you really wanna go, then do it.

As Skybird suggested, I have visited the homepage for Avis, a rental office. One of many, I have to say. But just as an example.

3 screencaps below.

You'll see on the map that you have about 163 km between Copenhagen Airport (Kastrup Lufthavn) and Rødbyhavn:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/Subsim/krak.jpg

And the prizes for vans:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/Subsim/avis.jpg

For the 9 person van, more in detail:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/Subsim/avis2.jpg

That is 2,122 DKK for the rent and the first 100 km. Extra km is 3.60 DKK. And the route in Denmark is ((163+163)-100) = 226 km * 4.50 DKK = 1017 DKK + 2,122 DKK = 3139 DKK. Then you also have the extra km in Germany. But sofar it's 348,78 DKK per person in the van.

Very helpful!

So, that's about $60 per person to rent a 9 person van. Does that include the return mileage? Mileage to Laboe from the ferry? And ferry charge?

This is useful if we end up needing to take a van.

[Seeadler]

Then we rise early Weds 16th, take the train OR rent a van to Laboe, across the excellent ferry.
There is no direct train from Copenhagen to Laboe, with train you must go first to Kiel central station and then take two busses (#102+#120) to Laboe Ehrenmal (U-995).

The trains from Copenhagen to Kiel goes the northern route through Denmark via Flensburg. The trains from Copenhagen which uses the ferry (the train moves into the ferry) goes to Lübeck and further to Hamburg.

[Onkel Neal]

Seeadler! I sure hope you are coming, I would like to meet you.

[Thomen]

Just a note to the bus:
As far as I remember it, and maybe one of our other resident Germans can comment on it:
Is the price above with driver?
Because, if you want to drive a vehicle in Germany, that has a capacity of more then 7 Passengers (incl driver) you need a Personenbefoerderungsschein (what a word lol), basically a license to transport people from one place to another.

[Seeadler]

Seeadler! I sure hope you are coming, I would like to meet you.
Yes, I plan to participate for the meeting, here from Hamburg I can fly four times a day to Copenhagen:up:

[Carotio]

You'll see on the map that you have about 163 km between Copenhagen Airport (Kastrup Lufthavn) and Rødbyhavn:
And the prizes for vans:
For the 9 person van, more in detail:
That is 2,122 DKK for the rent and the first 100 km. Extra km is 3.60 DKK. And the route in Denmark is ((163+163)-100) = 226 km * 4.50 DKK = 1017 DKK + 2,122 DKK = 3139 DKK. Then you also have the extra km in Germany. But sofar it's 348,78 DKK per person in the van.

Very helpful!

So, that's about $60 per person to rent a 9 person van. Does that include the return mileage? Mileage to Laboe from the ferry? And ferry charge?

This is useful if we end up needing to take a van.

Yes, 348,78 DKK is 58,96 $ or 46,81 €. In practical, the prizes in Denmark are sliced up in either 0,00 or 0,50 or 1,00 (the only small coin we have left is 0,50 DKK), so the prize would be 349,00 DKK. Just so you all know it.

I didn't write the mileage in Germany for one reasons: we don't know yet, where the final route is, if it's just Puttgarten-Laboe, or is it also into Kiel city or maybe a sidetrip to Lübeck.

But to give you all an idea, Puttgarden-Laboe. Here's a route map and below a description of route and info of time needed to drive that route and length.

The route in Denmark is highway from Copenhagen down to the ferry, however the highway from the bridge between Sjælland (Sealand) and Falster and to Rødbyhavn is a two lane highway road, and not very convenient to drive in bad weather - yes, I have tried. But otherwise, it's okay. You can drive with either 110 km/h or 130 km/h on that route, that is that's the allowed speed.

Now the route in Germany, will for the most part be on smaller roads, some with 80 km/h speed limit, I suppose. Which also is the reason for the estimated time schedule on the screencap, I guess. The info is: 90,09 km and that is only one way. 1 hour 12 minutes is the estimated time.

So the route length totally would be (2*163km)+(2*90,09km) = 506,18 km.
The first 100 km is included in my first proposal, so one would need to pay (4,50 DKK * 406,18 km) = 1,828 DKK for the extra km's plus the original 2,122 DKK for the rent, which is 3,950 DKK in total for a 9 person van, which is 439 DKK per person or 74.21 $ or 58.92 €

So that prize proposal is for 9 persons. And that will of course change, if it's more or fewer people. The sooner the better, if people know whether they will do the trip Copenhagen-Laboe both ways, or not. Or maybe, some will go and meet up in Laboe on their own, like German members. They may do a rent trip on their own the reverse way and keep the rented car in Denmark during the 4 day meet. That's also an option.

EDIT:
I forgot, the trip prize will most likely be without the cost of benzin/diesel for the van, so one will need to pay for that too...

Route map and route guide:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/Subsim/krak4.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/Subsim/krak5.jpg

[gandalf71]

...

Now the route in Germany, will for the most part be on smaller roads, some with 80 km/h speed limit, I suppose. Which also is the reason for the estimated time schedule on the screencap, I guess. The info is: 90,09 km and that is only one way. 1 hour 12 minutes is the estimated time.

...

We drove this route starting from Plön last year in our summer holiday and I also know the final piece from Lütjenburg to Laboe, and I can tell that 1 h 12mins is an quite optimistic estimate for this route. You should calculate with 1h 30mins which would be more realistic. On many parts of the route speed is limited to 70 km/h (ca 45 mph) and there are even some villages you have to pass, there is a limit of 50 km/h (ca 30mph), and some traffic lights where you may have to stop. You should also consider that there are very likely some agricultural vehicles on the road in mid of September, which may be difficult to overtake, espacially on the last part of the trip (Lütjenburg-Laboe).

Cheers,
Michael

[Hitman]

Hitman, et all, how does this sound?

Americans leave Monday 14th and fly into Copenhagen on early morning in Tuesday 15th. One day to rest up, see a little of the town, and get plenty of rest that night and solve the jet lag. Then we rise early Weds 16th, take the train OR rent a van to Laboe, across the excellent ferry. See U-995, meet up with German and other western Euro members who are driving in. Then we take the train/van back OR ride back with people who have cars. If there are two or three Euro drivers, we probably will not need the train on the return trip.


That would be perfect for me, I would arrive at Copenhagen the 15th for lunch and be rested and ready for the 16th :up:

For the trip I still believe the rented bus would be the best because it would bring us directly from the hotel to U-995 and back, and that is the most comfortable option. Alternatively, if we rent a car or several cars (I'd say one for each 4 persons should be OK) I can drive/share driving.

[Onkel Neal]

Ok. I think I will change the wording of the meet to say Sept 16-20. We can work out the details on train/van later, but we will set a date and time to meet in Laboe. Date will be Weds Sept 16, time ~1pm. That way everyone know when to meet at Laboe.

[Skybird]

To my surprise, all the area around Kiel and Laboe is covered with Bird'S View photography by Live Search. The pics
can be moved, zoomed, and turned 90°-wise.


http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/8867/image2d.jpg (http://img398.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image2d.jpg)

If you chose to get there by car and you have no drivers knowing the area, you may want to use this wonderful
function to check your approach route into Laboe for faster orientation. - Useful for orientation in Copenhagen as well, I assume.

[Onkel Neal]

Nice! :yeah:

[mookiemookie]

For the trip I still believe the rented bus would be the best because it would bring us directly from the hotel to U-995 and back, and that is the most comfortable option. Alternatively, if we rent a car or several cars (I'd say one for each 4 persons should be OK) I can drive/share driving.

I'd be down for this option. I'd be kind of intimidated being alone in Denmark and not speaking a lick of Danish, trying to get to Laboe :rotfl:

[Hitman]

I wouldn't worry too much about that, I believe most danes speak english and many do also speak german (Danish is also a germanic language, and learning one when you know another is much easier). I can speak german also, and I'm sure I won't be the only one, so we would make groups with at least someone who can speak the local language :yep:

[gandalf71]

Hi All!

To get an better impression what is expecting you onboard of U-995 you can take a look at those 360° panorama pictures.

You need to have Adobe Flasplayer installed.

Control Room (forward section)
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/04_U-Boot-Zentrale_max.swf

Aft Torpedo/Electric engine compartment
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/02_U-Boot-Maschine_max.swf

and the great view across the Kiel fjord from the top of the Navy Cenotaph
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/07_Blick_vom_Ehrenmal_max.swf


For the language I wouldn´t worry too much also, as long as you have 2 hands and 2 feet there will be certainly a way to get your ideas across :D

Hope you enjoy those pics...

Cheers,
Michael

[Sailor Steve]

That I will not attend the meeting in Copenhagen does not mean that I could not assist from the distance, where possible.
Look into my eyes :stare:

You will attend.

You will attend.

You will attend.

You are getting very sleepy.

Soon you will...:yawn:

:zzz:

I'm awake! I'm awake!:doh:

:damn:

Darn! I hope that worked.:sunny:

[Skybird]

First practice in front of a mirror before trying it on others. ;)

Hm. :hmmm:

Or better don't. :-?

[Sailor Steve]

Why do you think I fell asleep?
:rotfl:

[limkol]

mookimookie mentioned the language.........don't worry about it. Most speak english and most of the music on the radio and movies on the tv are in the original English with Danish subtitles. Where I live in Jutland they even celebrate the 4th. of July. Not to mention St. Patrick's day!
I am Irish and have lived in other countries before landing in Denmark 15 years ago. I speak the lingo. I have a European driving licence (does not cover a bus unfortunately) and am off the drink, so if the general idea is to hire cars, I would not mind driving.

[Skybird]

You guys might be interested in the pics here. I stumbled over this by chance while checking a site that was related to something different:

http://www.roland-harder.de/deutschland/kiel_laboe.html

[rik007]

All!

Make sure you all visit the U-995 as it is a once-in-a-life-time experience. I can advice you to view Das Boot afterwards as soon as possible collectively as everything falls in place.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/rik007/Duitsland229_resize.jpg
Our last type VIIC in the world.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/rik007/Duitsland113_resize.jpg
Do not bump your head!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/rik007/Duitsland183_resize.jpg
After a few attempts you will get smoothly through these

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/rik007/Duitsland211_resize.jpg
At the right under the wooden desk there is a simple tdc. In the memorial across the road you will find a more sophisticated one:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/rik007/Duitsland237_resize.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/rik007/Duitsland149_resize.jpg
Depth control. The famous large depth meter with green-yellow-red wasn't there (should be right): was it stolen or under repair?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/rik007/Duitsland197_resize.jpg
Question to all captains: what are those red switches on those tubes used for?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/rik007/Duitsland224_resize.jpg
Silent Hunter V: One Ship, one torpedo

Rik

[Onkel Neal]

Very nice! Look forward to see her myself.

[rik007]

Very nice! Look forward to see her myself.

Neal,

With 15 visitors on board this ship is becoming crowded. Sailing with 44-50 crewmembers and all fishes in stock I leave up to your imagination. Do not forget to check her history:

http://www.uboat.net/boats/u995.htm

Although it scored a low tonnage still more than 120 sailors perished from her tubes.

Rik

[Onkel Neal]

Kiel car sign up (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1157787#post1157787)

.

[elanaiba]

Question - would it be possible to arrange something with the "masters of U-995" / museum curator in order to visit the conning tower too ?

[Carotio]

Question - would it be possible to arrange something with the "masters of U-995" / museum curator in order to visit the conning tower too ?

No idea, but I found this site for the museum, which includes a mail adress:
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/preise_zeiten_u995.htm
Maybe if you send them a nice mail from an ubi mail adress and asking them formally, it could be possible. One never knows...
Keep us informed, if it works out. :03:

There's also the info about the Memorial tower on the site.
I think we should get up there too, while we're there...

[elanaiba]

I did that, we'll see what comes out of it...

[mapuc]

The situation has changed. The person that works on TT-lines, is sick-listed. Now I'm thinking on taking my own car.
I use my GPS from either Copenhagen or Helsingor to Rødbyhavn.
From Puttgarden to Laboe someone has to guide me.

Or maybe I take the ICE-train from Copenhagen(dep. 0742 arriv. 0934 at Rodby.)
that offcourse, is a little bit cheaper.

Markus

[Lurchi]

Is the time of 1 P.M or 13:00 respectively still valid for the Laboe meet?

[Onkel Neal]

Yes, that's the plan.

[maerean_m]

Question - would it be possible to arrange something with the "masters of U-995" / museum curator in order to visit the conning tower too ?
It is possible: you'll get him in a corner and ask him endless questions while we climb up the ladder. doh :rotfl:

[gandalf71]

Merely one and a half week to go until the Subsim Crew enters Laboe :yeah:

What about feeding up the Information for planning this visit of U995 and the attached museum?! What do we know so far?

Time of meet: 20090916z1100 (b1300)
Meeting point: tbd (I can go for a scouting trip the next days and find a suitable meeting point

Entrance fee:
Adult: 2,50€ (U995 only) or 5,50€ (U995 + "Marine Ehrenmal" Museum Combi)
Soldier: 1,80€ (--- " ---) or 3,50€ (--- " ---) (in Uniform / Army Passport required)
Children: same as Soldiers (w/o uniform :D)

If we can gather a group of minimum 15 persons:
Group: 2,00€ (U995 only) or 4,80€ (U995 + "Marine Ehrenmal" Museum Combi) / each person

The entrance to Möltenort U-Boot Memorial is free.
Distance from U995/Marine Ehrenmal: approx. 8.5km / 15min (car) or 6.0 km / 60min (walking distance)

If there is any interest for a guided tour, I can still try to arrange something, just give me an "official" go.

Any questions, somebody needs a Kiel pickup at Kiel railway station, just don´t hesitate to contact me.

Cheers,
Michael