Why don't Americans travel abroad? [Archive]

clive bradbury

02-26-09, 07:14 AM

First up, I don't want this post to become an 'insular nation ignorant of overseas matters' political post - I am merely curious as to why so few Americans travel abroad. I don't particularly believe that travel 'broadens the mind' anyway - somehow I don't see British youngsters spending a fortnight drunk in Spain as a culturally fufilling experience!

Anyway, back to the point. Items on the web postulate lots of different reasons - size and diversity of the US itself, cost of foreign travel, no 'backpacking' culture, lack of holiday time, etc. As there are a fair few Americans on this forum, I would be interested in your own personal experiences - if you don't choose to travel abroad yourself - why not? If you do go abroad - where?

I have heard this lack of holiday days in the US before - how many do you get? I would guess that a typical UK citizen gets roughly about 4 weeks pa plus 'statutory days' such as bank holidays, christmas, etc, which probably add up to an additional 10 days or so. Call it about two months off altogether. This is pretty much the same at all levels of employment.

I know that the argument that foreign travel from the UK is easier than in the US simply because Europe is closer, but be careful, I think this theory is a little misleading. Britons frequently travel all over the world - not just to cheap 'local' destinations. As I write, my wife is in India, by brother-in-law in the Maldives, and a friend is on his way to Tasmania. Most Britons I know not only travel abroad most years, they often go several times.

Anyway, will the US guys please let me know your foreign travel patterns, I am interested - and let's keep politics out of it.

Skybird

02-26-09, 07:39 AM

According to some here on this board, why should any american wish to leave the most fantastic nation on earth and to visit places where people are just jealous on and look with envy at america.

Don't crucify me, I'm serious. it's a phenomenon you see in the hsitory of empires very often. In the heart and centre of the empire, citizens think that the places in the periphery are not worth to be interested in. It's just the inferiror "province". Stay in the centre, where the heart of life beats loud and heavy - or so you think.

Social behavior patterns, personal financial status, also play a role, of course, as well as education encouraging or discouraging such travelling. And here the circles closes and you are at the centre-versus-periphery thing again.

If you think other places do not have something to offer for you, why going there, then?

I will never forget the small TV spot in a docu magazine that was broadcasted short after the Iraq war 03 broke out, a group of american tourists on a german riverboat. they got interviewed and some of them said their group were surprised and they did not expect to be greeted "so extremely friendly" in Germany and being met with so much hospitality (that was in easter Germany, I think, where these things still rank higher than in socially colder western germany). They said that they even had planned to cancel the journey.

We people in the room watching that TV - were all laughing about that, in a well-meant attitude. You shouldn'T believe all and everything you read and hear about european anti-americanism: political disagreement must not always and necessarily translate into personal antipathy. For the most that is a thing of the 60s, 70s and 80s: first there was Vietnam, then the student revolts, and then there was Reagan and the (Germany-initiated, if that is not ironical) stationing of Pershing IIs and Cruise Missiles, that's why.

Torplexed

02-26-09, 08:08 AM

Perhaps I shouldn't talk since I've been to Europe five times and traveled a lot as a kid when my father was being stationed abroad in the Air Force.:ping: However, I think a lot of may come down to the fact that geographically large countries (Russia, China, USA) tend to be insular countries. When the average citizen can travel several thousand miles in any direction and see the same language on the sign posts, the same restaurants, fast food joints, hotel chains and use the same currency and everything is convenient you tend to think that's the whole world and it's enough. In more crowded Europe with smaller nations and nation states you've had to live cheek by jowl with your neighbors and through history it's been in your best interests militarily and diplomatically to get out and find out what they are about. Plus, you have a culture of travel stemming from everything from Marco Polo to establishing colonies abroad. Here in American our culture of travel stems from Lewis and Clark...camping! :DL

I think another aspect of it may be a fear of being taken or hoodwinked because they're out of their element. I've spoken to several Americans who say they would like to go, but seem to have this irrational fear of being not able to speak the local language or understand an accent and being inconvenienced or made of fool of somehow. I try to point out that like the internet most people speak English, but the fear is there all the same.

longam

02-26-09, 08:17 AM

Cruise Ships, Bahamas, Sun, Fun. All in one package.

August

02-26-09, 08:31 AM

I have heard this lack of holiday days in the US before - how many do you get? I would guess that a typical UK citizen gets roughly about 4 weeks pa plus 'statutory days' such as bank holidays, christmas, etc, which probably add up to an additional 10 days or so. Call it about two months off altogether. This is pretty much the same at all levels of employment.

There's a big difference in available time for one thing. We average only about 2 weeks vacation time though we have about the same number of holidays (10-11).

Another factor is the amount of Anti-Americanism we keep seeing in our media. Few people want to go on a trip where they might be spat on or maybe even kidnapped/killed because of their nationality.

Finally like Torplexed says our country is large enough to give us access to all sorts of environments. Unlike say Britons we don't have to travel to a foreign country to experience the tropics. We have mountains, plains, forests, cities, deserts, you name it we have at least a states worth of it.

AVGWarhawk

02-26-09, 09:55 AM

As August stated...vacation time is handled differently here. We get 1 week a year. As you pass through the years at your company, you get additional weeks. However, most frown on taking these vacation weeks in a row. At least from my experience. I see that Europeans enjoy 3-4 weeks off. That allows a lot of time to travel. Think about it. One week to travel Europe? Sure, at least two days of travel on both ends leave very little time in between to actually visit the place. One needs at least 2 weeks to make a decent trip of it. I would love to visit England but 3-4 days visit does not do it justice. Also, some people just don't fly. My wife will not fly...period! Then there is cost. Furthermore, I wish to travel America first before I go to a foreign country. There is a lot to see and do here. There are a plethora of things keeping Americans from traveling to other countries.

This is just crazy:

According to some here on this board, why should any american wish to leave the most fantastic nation on earth and to visit places where people are just jealous on and look with envy at america

Rockstar

02-26-09, 09:57 AM

Had you ever thought of actually extending an invitation to someone instead of posting the usual statisticle B.S above?

YOU obvioulsy haven't visited the United States or Canada. Oh you might got a ticket to a tourist trap and called it a cultural experience. My gosh I have traveled the U.S./Canada. I am still amazed what it has to offer in scenic beauty, cultural diversity, food, etc etc. So much to see in my own backyard. Take a train cross country, hike the Appalachian trail, dive the Florida Keys, see the Rockies, hunt Alaska, visit with Metis, Cree, Inuit, Ojibway, Algonquin, Saulteaux, Menominee people, sail the St Lawrence Seaway or Great Lakes, Maritime Provinces. Enough here to keep me busy and amazed for a lifetime. And you know what you are cordially invited to come and visit, enjoy a home cooked meal and friendship. But then ya got to go cause Im not running a hostel for freeloaders ;)

Tchocky

02-26-09, 10:14 AM

Onkel Neal

02-26-09, 10:45 AM

I think, as you said, America is a big place:
A trip from Madrid, Spain to Warsaw, Poland is about the same as a drive from El Paso, Texas to Detroit ,Michigan, or Seattle, Washington to Omaha, Nebraska
2,868 km : 1782 miles.

And that's only half way across the country. A round trip from Seattle to Miamii, Florida is the same as driving from Glasgow, the northen UK to Chennai, India! :o

So, with so much to see and do inside the US, a lot of traveling internally would be in order before venturing outside the country. Also, we are separated by two oceans from Europe and Asia, so any close international travel would be to our favorite neighbor in the north, Canada, and south to Mexico/South America.

From my "small town background", a lot of people here are pretty focused on everyday life, and they are US-centric. Why spend all that $$$, spend hours in a plane to mingle with foreigners who speak with funny accents, when the truck needs a new set of tires, or we could take the kids to Disneyland, or there's a fishing trip planned? I guess a lot of people just don't see the appeal in going far off places to see things.

Obviously, this does not include everyone. :shucks: I'm just relaying fom some of my experience as a country boy.

You know, I bet a majority of Europeans don't travel far either (non-business). There were only three international guests at last October's Subsim meet, and only two from Europe. That tells me that Europeans don't travel any more than Americans. There were three US members at the Amsterdam meet a couple years ago :).

And taking a trip from London to Italy does not count the same as flying from San Diego to Italy. :) That's the US equivalent of driving from East Texas to West Texas.

My family has done a small amount of European travel; I've been to London twice, Paris, three times, Moscow four, and then a nice driving trip from London through Ghent to Amsterdam, with a quick jaunt to Wilhemshaven. I'm planning a trip to Copenhagen this Sept :03:

Frame57

02-26-09, 10:46 AM

I like some of the european takes on vacation time alloted. i have not had a vacation in three years due to the work load. So for me getting a three day weekend has kind of served as a mini vacation. I am 2 hours from being in the mendocino forest or the beach for that matter. The places I like to go to are in reasonable proximity. I had an enjoyable time seeing the world while in the Navy. I never had to buy a beer in England or germany for that matter (of course i never ran into Sky bird). I hate using commercial travel because all too often they screw things up for me. The last time i flew somehow my luggage took another flight. Rather than treating customers like valued people they are treated like cattle. I despise them.

Onkel Neal

02-26-09, 10:47 AM

Rockstar

02-26-09, 11:03 AM

No Tchocky it wasn't meant to be sarcastic mean or an overly sensitive response. It was a request and reminder that extending an invitation to someone used to be the way to gain a friend. But I ask you don't take offence if I can't make it as your home I suspect is too far for me. Posting statistics touting how uncultured, stupid, close minded certain groups of people are is at best repulsive.

Tourist traps are everywhere and rarely give an honest look into the culture of the host country. They are geared to herd the masses to a particular area and take your money. So if you visit this country let me know, if Im in the area I will show you places that will take your breath away and cost you next to nothing. But bring you hiking boots ;)

AngusJS

02-26-09, 11:58 AM

I'm American, and I lived in Moscow for 4 years, and recently spent 5 months backpacking through Asia, so I don't fit the stereotype. :)

I don't think distance or cost are sufficient to explain Americans' reticence to travel. Australians live in the back of beyond - it totally takes like 115 hours minimum for them to fly to Europe - yet wherever you travel, there you will meet Aussies.

I think it comes down to fear, and lack of interest, and lack of time.

During my time abroad, I never once experienced anti-Americanism, yet to listen to people here back in 2003, you'd think it was a rampant problem. And many people can't understand how it's possible to travel in countries where you don't speak the language.

Then there's the lack of interest among many Americans. If you're into the outdoors, as Rockstar appears to be, then overseas travel might not hold the same appeal, and that's fine if that's where you're interests are. I would say, though, that even Americans who would be more interested in tourism to historical sites, or examples of fine architecture, or great cities, will still usually prefer to visit their homegrown versions. Which is a shame because in these areas the US just can't compete.

Finally, we don't get enough time off here. There is no federal law which mandates any right to vacation, and employers can make whatever policies they like. Any such law would be Socialism, and therefore Bad. :roll:

SteamWake

02-26-09, 12:01 PM

Because were snooty isolationists... :cool:

http://chronicle.com/news/article/6021/college-warns-students-about-spring-break-in-mexico

TDK1044

02-26-09, 12:18 PM

I think because in some ways each State feels like a slightly different English speaking Country, offering us a variety of different cultures and geographical and architectural interests.

Think that Hawaii, Arizona, Colorado, New England and Florida are all within the same Country. Unless you are looking for real history, pretty much everything the average American wants exists within the borders of the US.

Rockstar

02-26-09, 12:34 PM

AngusJS

I think you just hit the nail on the head. We are all different with different interests and opinion. Americans, like yourself, contrary to what others say do get out and travel internationally. For example: according to the AAA there were 6,000,000 Americans visiting Europe in 2008. Now those numbers of American travellers may not be up to the satisfaction of certain people here. But when you read the posts of those few it would, I think, lead one to believe nothing is ever done to their satisfaction.

I once thought there was more 'out there' internationally. But when I turned off the TV and got my boots on and tuned up my bicycle it got really interesting here in my own backyard and it's a BIG backyard.:yep:

http://www.aaanewsroom.net/Assets/Files/2008551019520.InternationalTraveForecast08.pdf

Rockstar

02-26-09, 01:01 PM

I guess the question that should be asked especially when you look at statistics is. Why do people think Americans don't travel abroad? When you ground yourself in reality rather than myth, supposition or rumor it will become readily apparent Americans are free to and do travel internationally for recreation. Another question came to mind too. Why are you so worried about what I do with my time anyways? I worked hard for my time I am pleased to enjoy it doing things that interest me not satisfiying your view on what I should be doing. My recommendation would be to go find something to do besides drink beer, complain and watch TV.

GoldenRivet

02-26-09, 01:23 PM

AVGWarhawk

02-26-09, 01:29 PM

for one i would love to see the world.

yes, time available and expense are major limiting factors.

I also think that there is probably an element of fear among some Americans... perhaps there are some who feel as if their protection will not be taken as seriously abroad as it is here?

some people worry about kidnappings or murders abroad... Americans are not very popular these days with some nations, i guess some folks might be afraid they will be singled out and targeted?

i dont know - just adding it to the mix

Yes, this adds to the mix and we also must add in what a pain in the arse airports have become. Short of having a body cavity search ( some get them :shifty: ) boarding planes and security just make life very difficult. So much so that my folks do not travel anymore. The have been in every country that Europe has to offer. They cancelled a cruise this year because of the airports. They just do not feel like dealing with them.

Rockstar

02-26-09, 01:39 PM

Remember when you wore your Sunday best when travelling by air? You could even stretch your legs! I took a flight to Hawaii not too long ago 10 plus hours of living like a sardine confined in a tin. Not fun at all or relaxing, next time I'll take a boat.

Bewolf

02-26-09, 01:45 PM

Well, there is a certain anti americanism observeable, Europe not beeing an exception. And yes, it may very well happen that americans get involved or asked about politics and taken responsible for the actions of their governments in debates, that may indeed happen.

But spitting, murder, kidnapping? I seriously do not think there needs to be any fear of that, at all.

August

02-26-09, 01:59 PM

But spitting, murder, kidnapping? I seriously do not think there needs to be any fear of that, at all.

Well tell that to the media because they are the ones who promote those possibilities, just like they promote the idea that we're irresponsible cowboys constantly shooting at each other.

Max2147

02-26-09, 02:39 PM

I should preface this by saying that I've been to all seven continents (including Antarctica).

A big reason most Americans don't travel abroad is distance. Unlike Europeans, we can travel a long ways from home and still be in our country.

This does two things. First, it means that you can experience a lot more without leaving our country. Second, it makes traveling abroad much more difficult. A continental European can get in their car, drive a few hours, and be in a different country. They probably won't even need a passport, and they only have to pay for gas. Just watch some of those epic BBC Top Gear races - in one Clarkson drives starts in Britain, takes the train to France, then drives through Belgium, Holland, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and Norway in about a day. Meanwhile, to to anywhere besides Canada, Mexico, or the Caribbean, an American would have to catch an 8+ hour plane ride, costing hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

GoldenRivet

02-26-09, 02:41 PM

longam

02-26-09, 03:06 PM

We just like it here.........

http://pj91wg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pd9O5TK0mKEIH-2gPm-_8zXiLSO6-TXmW_LZZl36gF12QWCk47vdbRMBEx7ZKqTNjLlEQvSsFRCc-tbG7toUjpQ/oh_give_me_a_home.jpg

Sailor Steve

02-26-09, 03:30 PM

I think Neal nailed half of it, and AngusJS mentioned the other half, though I disagree a little. I think time and money are the two main factors involved. I can drive to California in a day, and to New York in three. I can't afford to fly anywhere, and overseas is out of the question without special planning and saving. There is much I have never seen, and though I would love to probably never will.

Semi well-to-do Americans go to the tourist spots in Mexico, or for a cruise in the Caribbean. The rest of us go to Disneyland.

Fish

02-26-09, 05:07 PM

If I was an American citizen, and lived up here (http://www.fishcolorado.com/) I stay there the rest of my live. :salute:

Platapus

02-26-09, 08:19 PM

If I want to mingle with people from countries from all over the world, all I have to do is travel through the United States. :haha:

I have one story that illustrates how difficult it can be for a foreigner to comprehend how large the US is.

There I was no $hit in Korea. I had made friends with this Korean Businessman and he was planning on visiting the United States. He was asking me about the US and he was amazed that I, while rather well traveled, had not visited every state in the US.

When I tried to explain to him how big the US was he was clearly having problems really comprehending how huge our country is.

I had to point out that we had individual states that were larger than his entire country and at first he did not believe it. I explained that He could drive the entire length of his county in less than 5 hours. There are states where this won't get you half way across.

He was shocked that many Americans have not visited all 50 states. I told him it was a rarity to visit all the states and that some people plan a retirement "grand tour" to see their own country before they die.

It can be difficult to imagine how big a country like the US or Canada is if you have never been there.

Kapt Z

02-26-09, 08:52 PM

I wish I could travel abroad more myself. Heck there are whole states in the US I have never been too.

I was lucky enough to study abroad in the UK for about 6months back in the 80's. That was GREAT because you had the time to not only do some traveling, but actually sit in class with people who were not Americans and get to know them and what made them tick. Seeing natural and manmade wonders is fun and exciting, but it pales compared to interacting with people who have different(sometimes radically different) points of view and to do that on their 'turf' not mine.

There were only a few of us studying abroad in those days, now it is a requirement for your degree at my alma mater. That's a good thing.

Platapus

02-26-09, 09:05 PM

I was lucky enough to study abroad in the UK for about 6months back in the 80's.

Wish I could be lucky enough to study broads in the UK. Why stop at one? :yeah:

Kapt Z

02-26-09, 09:25 PM

Onkel Neal

02-26-09, 09:52 PM

I was lucky enough to study abroad in the UK for about 6months back in the 80's.

Wish I could be lucky enough to study broads in the UK. Why stop at one? :yeah:

Who said 'all' the interacting was in class?:03:

:har:

As you may have heard, the Subsim Meet will be In Copenhagen this year. It should be announced soon, I'm expecting to get the green light from McBeck any day now. So, I hope all you travelers will join me in Denmark in Sept!! :shucks: I wanna study some broads, too!

Well, there is a certain anti americanism observeable, Europe not beeing an exception. And yes, it may very well happen that americans get involved or asked about politics and taken responsible for the actions of their governments in debates, that may indeed happen.

I'll be wearing my Bush in 2012 shirt ;)

Neal

MothBalls

02-26-09, 10:54 PM

There's probably a bunch of people like me who just quit traveling. Before 9/11 I traveled for both business and pleasure quite often. The before and after pictures are completely different.

I quit traveling because I don't feel comfortable being an American outside of America. It's not the terrorist or criminals that scare me, it's the confrontational drunk in the bar, or the uneducated slug on public assistance blaming me for all the worlds problems. I've had people be rude, obnoxious, and totally assinine towards me only because I'm an American. Didn't take me long to just say screw it, I'm staying home.

Read Skybirds dribble crap of a message. That's why I don't travel. There are actually people that stupid in the world, and I don't need or want to meet them.

Max2147

02-26-09, 11:15 PM

My interactions with politically-minded foreigners have actually been pretty pleasant. It probably helps that I'm a liberal who thought that Bush screwed the country up pretty badly, but I've found that most foreigners are very capable of distinguishing between a country's government and its people.

I remember I was in London during the lead-up to the Iraq war, when they had a massive anti-war protest. I went to watch (but not participate), and I was very pleasantly surprised that among the hundreds of signs I saw and dozens of chants I heard, there was almost no generic anti-Americanism. Everything was either anti-war or anti-Bush. The only things that could have been interpreted as anti-Americanism were two blood-splattered American flags (and one of them was on the same poster as a blood-splattered Union Jack). I never felt uneasy or threatened, and when some of the people standing near us found out we were Americans they actually seemed pretty happy that we were there.

When I go abroad I try to fit in with the local culture, but I don't try to hide the fact that I'm an American (my accent would give me away even if I tried). I get a lot of questions about the US, but they're usually more curious than confrontational. A lot of people just want to know what the US is really like.

Letum

02-27-09, 12:11 AM

I think, as you said, America is a big place:
A trip from Madrid, Spain to Warsaw, Poland is about the same as a drive from El Paso, Texas to Detroit ,Michigan, or Seattle, Washington to Omaha, Nebraska
2,868 km : 1782 miles.
Ahh, now that's not such a great example.

Travel isn't about the distance coved.
200 miles in some parts of Europe can take you in to a radically different culture,
lifestyle, language, nation, landscape etc.
2000 miles in Australia or America, for example, might only change the landscape.

London to Moscow may be the same distance as [American City #1] to [American City #2],
but that hardly tells the full story.

Well, there is a certain anti americanism observeable
Over here people tend to make a distinction between 'Tourists', 'American tourists' and
'Asian tourists', but I don't think they are treated differently, aside from people complaining
about their driving more than European tourists. I don't know if there is any truth there.

Onkel Neal

02-27-09, 12:13 AM

I think, as you said, America is a big place:
A trip from Madrid, Spain to Warsaw, Poland is about the same as a drive from El Paso, Texas to Detroit ,Michigan, or Seattle, Washington to Omaha, Nebraska
2,868 km : 1782 miles.

Ahh, now that's not such a great example.

Travel isn't about the distance coved.
200 miles in some parts of Europe can take you in to a radically different culture,
lifestyle, language, nation, landscape etc.
2000 miles in Australia or America, for example, might only change the landscape.

London to Moscow may be the same distance as [American City #1] to [American City #2],
butthat hardly tells the full story.

Well, seeing that we cannot hop into our car and drive 200 miles for that radical culture change, I think distance plays a role in our travel plans ;)

Letum

02-27-09, 12:20 AM

Max2147

02-27-09, 12:29 AM

I think, as you said, America is a big place:
A trip from Madrid, Spain to Warsaw, Poland is about the same as a drive from El Paso, Texas to Detroit ,Michigan, or Seattle, Washington to Omaha, Nebraska
2,868 km : 1782 miles.
Ahh, now that's not such a great example.

Travel isn't about the distance coved.
200 miles in some parts of Europe can take you in to a radically different culture,
lifestyle, language, nation, landscape etc.
2000 miles in Australia or America, for example, might only change the landscape.

London to Moscow may be the same distance as [American City #1] to [American City #2],
but that hardly tells the full story.
Take a bunch of New Englanders and put them in the rural Deep South, and I guarantee that each side will say the other has a radically different culture, lifestyle, and language.

I remember arriving at a southern BBQ place in rural North Carolina with a guy from New Jersey. Now North Carolina isn't really Deep South, and New Jersey isn't as Yankee as you can get, but the poor guy still got a huge dose of culture shock. He was convinced that somebody there was going to grab one of the guns off the wall (or from their belt) and shoot him.

Kapitan_Phillips

02-27-09, 01:39 AM

I've met several American tourists, and thus have formed a few points to follow, to survive interactions with British people:

No I dont know the Queen
London isnt only just down the road from.. well anywhere else in the country
I dont have tea and crumpets at 4am
Please speak a little quieter
(This one is from my sister) No, we dont measure how much jam we put in our donuts.
We drive on the LEFT in STICK SHIFTS :88):yeah:

Letum

02-27-09, 01:43 AM

I
STICK SHIFTS :88)

"Stick shifts" ?

Isn't that an Americanism?

Kapitan_Phillips

02-27-09, 01:45 AM

I
STICK SHIFTS :88)
"Stick shifts" ?

Isn't that an Americanism?

I didnt want to confuse the poor dears, Letum.

;););)

:haha:

Tchocky

02-27-09, 02:57 AM

An old joke...

Me - Well, I'm from Ireland

American - Wow! My grandmother was an O'Flaherty! Did you know her?

Me - Yes, (aside) but then everybody did

:p2:

JALU3

02-27-09, 08:15 AM

Travel takes time and $$$.
Like it has been said most employers give little time off, I'm salary and get 2 weeks. And like others have said employers dislike you taking it all at once. The longest time I had been out of work, while I had a job was 1 week, and that was only because I had surgery on a tumor, and couldn't hold down food! And let me tell you that although we have sick days, I don't know anyone in my section who has used any when it hasn't been significant (there's only 4 of us).

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to travel, but who has the time and money? Those who have both are fortunate.

Anyways, I did this for another board (http://forum.trek-rpg.net/showpost.php?p=167821&postcount=1) that I am on, go ahead and post your own. Unfortunately I cannot say that I have added to this. Maybe if I win the Lottery.

TDK1044

02-27-09, 08:33 AM

England is a great Country...it just needs a roof! :)

goldorak

02-27-09, 08:47 AM

Perhaps I shouldn't talk since I've been to Europe five times and traveled a lot as a kid when my father was being stationed abroad in the Air Force.:ping: However, I think a lot of may come down to the fact that geographically large countries (Russia, China, USA) tend to be insular countries. When the average citizen can travel several thousand miles in any direction and see the same language on the sign posts, the same restaurants, fast food joints, hotel chains and use the same currency and everything is convenient you tend to think that's the whole world and it's enough. In more crowded Europe with smaller nations and nation states you've had to live cheek by jowl with your neighbors and through history it's been in your best interests militarily and diplomatically to get out and find out what they are about. Plus, you have a culture of travel stemming from everything from Marco Polo to establishing colonies abroad. Here in American our culture of travel stems from Lewis and Clark...camping! :DL

This is spot on. :yep:
I live in northern italy. In less than 200km I can be in France, Switzerland or Austria. :D

Onkel Neal

02-27-09, 09:09 AM

Letum

02-27-09, 09:58 AM

Well, seeing that we cannot hop into our car and drive 200 miles for that radical culture change, I think distance plays a role in our travel plans ;)
I meant that it is false to say something like:
"Americans don't need to leave the country because you can travel so far within it
whilst Europeans are obliged to leave their countries when they travel because their
countries are so small."
I say that is true. You can't turn around in Europe without leaving your country. :D

Oh dear! you have missed my point again.
Lets see...this is a little messy, but:

1) American tourists seek new experiences in new places
2) To have new experiences in new places you must travel long distances
3) American tourists must travel long distances

4) American tourists must travel long distances to have new experiences in new places
5) You can travel long distances in America
6) American tourists can have new experiences in new places without leaving America

I disagree with '2'. I would replace '2' with:

2) To have new experiences in new places you must travel to new places that are unlike the old/familiar place(s).

With my '2'; 3,4,5 and 6 do not follow.

clive bradbury

02-27-09, 10:21 AM

Thanks for all the input gentlemen. Is it possible to draw a few conclusions (or at least further talking points), from all this?

1. Wanting to spend time seeing your own country is of course a valid reason for not travelling abroad, but even small countries can take a lifetime to explore. I am 51, and have not seen all the UK by any means. That does not stop me wanting to explore other countries, too. So is it more of a cultural thing?

2. Travel distance required doesn't seem to bother the Aussies, who if anything have to travel much further than most Americans, yet still do so. Admittedly, most are young people just out of university etc who probably take six months or a year to do so - often working in bars to subsidise the trip. So does the US have a 'backpack culture' in the same way?

3. Holidays. This seems to me to be the big one. Almost worth a separate thread. How do you US guys feel about your low number of holidays? Do you think you get enough (ooh er, missus!)? Do you think that the low numbers of breaks are counter-productive anyway? Tired and jaded workers tend to make more mistakes. As holidays are often one of the few chances for quality family time, does the US quota affect that too? For example, this year I have decided not to work for more that six weeks together as I find that I work more effectively that way. Admittedly, I am self-employed and overpaid for what I do, so I can award myself more holidays (3 months this year) - not always been that way, so I am making the most of it whilst I can!

Again, please leave the politics out of this if possible, I'm much more interested in personal experiences here.

Letum

02-27-09, 10:24 AM

I want your job.

clive bradbury

02-27-09, 10:28 AM

Can't have it until I retire.

Letum

02-27-09, 10:30 AM

Unless some little 'accident' where to happen...
/prepares banana skins

Jimbuna

02-27-09, 11:06 AM

You make the most of it and good luck.

One of the eternal hopes for the working class has got to be the option of retiring at an age where you are young enough to enjoy it, whilst still healthy and with sufficient income.

Schroeder

02-27-09, 11:53 AM

No way Jim, this would be socialism!:O:

Sorry couldn't resist.:oops:

Onkel Neal

02-27-09, 12:06 PM

2) To have new experiences in new places you must travel to new places that are unlike the old/familiar place(s).

Yeah yeah, and to do that in America you have to travel farther than in Europe. We're going in circles.

I still don't understand you, Letum. But you can explain it to me in Copenhagen, you traveler, you. :O:

OneToughHerring

02-27-09, 12:18 PM

This is spot on. :yep:
I live in northern italy. In less than 200km I can be in France, Switzerland or Austria. :D
That's a good place to live in, good food and mountains near by. Food from Italy & France and mountains in Switzerland and Austria. Have watched some of the winter games from Liberec on tv, nice scenery. Would like to visit that region.

As for Americans abroard, more and more visit Lapland, and also many exchange students etc. I remember giving one young American woman a guided tour of a city I used to live in. ;)

I guess the Americans on the whole are aware that the reputation of US isn't that high right now. I haven't talked to many tourists but I know some people through university who've told me about it. I guess not all want to admit any of it, and the British get down right angry when I even suggest anything like that. Oh well, I suppose it's the lost empire they are pining after or something...:rotfl:

Edit. Ok I checked, Liberec is in Czech and not in the Swiss-Austria - region.

Skybird

02-27-09, 12:21 PM

I think that in America you can travel longer disdtance to see smaller changes in habits and living styles, while in eurppe you travel smaller distances and nevertheless already see a greater change in places and habits.

Just considering language alone you would realise that it makes a smaller difference to travel from Boston to Seattle, then it makes a a difference to travel from Kiel to Kopenhagen.

Now consider history. Laws. Currency. Cuisine. You can see a "huge difference" when comparing Bavaria in germany's south with friesland in the north, at the coast to the Northern sea. And still it is the same country, and the difference does not match the scale of the difference you see when leaving you8r country and going to a completely di9fferent one.

Have you realised that you just gave evidence by your example, probably without realising it, for what I described as the "empirial attitude" that thinks the empire's heart already includes all that is worth to be seen, in my first reply, on the very top? :O: :D

Onkel Neal

02-27-09, 12:34 PM

I think that in America you can travel longer distance to see smaller changes in habits and living styles, while in eurppe you travel smaller distances and nevertheless already see a greater change in places and habits.

Just considering language alone you would realise that it makes a smaller difference to travel from Boston to Seattle, then it makes a a difference to travel from Kiel to Kopenhagen.

Now consider history. Laws. Currency. Cuisine. You can see a "huge difference" when comparing Bavaria in germany's south with friesland in the north, at the coast to the Northern sea. And still it is the same country, and the difference does not match the scale of the difference you see when leaving you8r country and going to a completely di9fferent one.

Have you realised that you just gave evidence by your example, probably without realising it, for what I described as the "empirial attitude" that thinks the empire's heart already includes all that is worth to be seen, in my first reply, on the very top? :O: :D

Somehow I can clearly picture you with a group of people watching Americans on TV and laughing at us.:DL The heart may not be all there is to be seen but it certainly gets a higher priority than other places.

I agree with your first sentence. When one says "travel", we cannot discount the distances. Travel = miles covered.

Speaking of Kiel, I plan to be there Sept 16, you going to meet me there visit the U-995 with me? :hmmm:

Letum

02-27-09, 02:46 PM

2) To have new experiences in new places you must travel to new places that are unlike the old/familiar place(s).

Yeah yeah, and to do that in America you have to travel farther than in Europe. We're going in circles.

No, no. One can not go from one part of America to another, however far apart and
claim that the two places are as distinct as London is from Moscow.

Onkel Neal

02-27-09, 02:51 PM

2) To have new experiences in new places you must travel to new places that are unlike the old/familiar place(s).

Yeah yeah, and to do that in America you have to travel farther than in Europe. We're going in circles.

No, no. One can not go from one part of America to another, however far apart and
claim that the two places are as distinct as London is from Moscow.

I never said that.

Skybird

02-27-09, 02:53 PM

Speaking of Kiel, I plan to be there Sept 16, you going to meet me there visit the U-995 with me? :hmmm:

Ah, you are there because of the subsim meeting in Kopenhagen. Strange coincidence that I have chosen that example, I did not think of the meeting.

I don't promise anything, but I made a mark in my calender. But the meeting in Kopenhagen I will not attend. I once was in Kiel when I was very young, and as far as I remember, the city was no tourist attraction one needs to see, nor has it that reputation. Except that insider's tip you mentioned ;)

Onkel Neal

02-27-09, 02:54 PM

Ah, you are there because of the subsim meeting in Kopenhagen. Strange coincidence that I have chosen that example, I did not think of the meeting.

I don't promise anything, but I made a mark in my calender. But the meeting in Kopenhagen I will not attend. I once was in Kiel when I was very young,

Ahhh, you better be there, lol, I'm traveling thousands of miles, the least you can do is take one of those 300 mph trains for 20 minutes to the north.:up:

the city was no tourist attraction one needs to see, nor has it that reputation. Except that insider's tip you mentioned

I'm not the kind of traveler that looks for tourist attractions ;)

Skybird

02-27-09, 03:12 PM

4 hours. :DL

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/dn?revia=yes&existOptimizePrice=1&trip-type=single&REQ0JourneyStopsS0A=1&S=M%FCnster%28W%29Zentrum+Nord&REQ0JourneyStopsSID=A%3D1@O%3DM%FCnster%28W%29Zent rum+Nord@X%3D7638610@Y%3D51984987@U%3D80@L%3D00800 4173@B%3D1@p%3D1235503192@&Z=Kiel&date=Sa%2C+26.09.09&time=06%3A00&timesel=depart&returnTimesel=depart&optimize=1&travelProfile=-1&adult-number=1&children-number=0&infant-number=0&tariffTravellerType.1=E&tariffTravellerReductionClass.1=0&tariffTravellerAge.1=&qf-trav-bday-1=&tariffClass=2&start=1&qf.bahn.button.suchen=%3CSPAN%3ESuchen%3C%2FSPAN%3 E

Onkel Neal

02-27-09, 03:34 PM

Piece of cake! See you there :woot:

nikimcbee

02-27-09, 04:45 PM

I don't like being a part of a tourist group. I went to school in moscow, that was more what i had in mind.

McBeck

02-27-09, 04:58 PM

I love to travel and have seen Sweden, Norway, Russia, Germany, Spain, UK, Greece, Turkey, USA (New york, San Fransisco, Miami, Hawaii, Athens), Mexico, Venezuela.

I would agree that eventhough I have been some corners of the USA, there is not the same difference as between Denmark and Spain.
So I conceed that if the Americans really want to experience a big change they will
have to travel much further that the Europeans.

But its just as long a travel for us in Europe to go to the US as it is for the Americans to go to Europe.

Onkel Neal

02-27-09, 06:33 PM

But its just as long a travel for us in Europe to go to the US as it is for the Americans to go to Europe.

Yeah, but we have to travel with the weight of Empire in our hearts.

Skybird

02-27-09, 07:39 PM

Well, take it easy then, Any. :88)

stabiz

02-27-09, 09:20 PM

Actually, if American media insists that the world hates Americans, thats wrong. Sure, lots of guys in the dusty lands with oil are pretty annoyed by the camo tourists there, and yes some people somehow blame you for everything thats wrong, but I dont know one person who would spit on an American (or any other nationality) tourist, unless said tourist is peeing on them. Actually most of my friends are pro America. I hold up my neutrality card.:timeout:

So, come to Scandinavia if you hate these things:

* Being spat on
* Being kidnapped
* Being killed to death
* Natives not fluent in English (or in some extreme cases: natives non fluent in hand signals)

Welcome to Norway, btw! (But stay away from Oslo, terrible city. Go to Bergen or Aalesund in stead)

August

02-27-09, 10:06 PM

People like familiarity. That's why chain restaurants like McDonalds do so well. They like the idea of being able to get the same things no matter where they go. It's comforting.

Perhaps that tendency translates to travel as well.

For example snowy Massachusetts and tropical Hawaii are as different as, to use McBecks example, Denmark and Spain when it comes to the environment, local customs and racial makeup, but other things, money, road signs, language and laws are the same. To someone who doesn't give a fig about bullfights, smoked herring or European history those differences might be enough to satisfy the a persons desire to see strange places.

Europeans on the other hand being from significantly smaller countries, are forced to travel to other countries to experience same range of environment and culture. It's not a bad thing, just different. Who knows?, if this EU thing lasts maybe Euros will feel as satisfied with their home as we are with ours.

stabiz

02-27-09, 10:46 PM

Who knows?, if this EU thing lasts maybe Euros will feel as satisfied with their home as we are with ours.

:rotfl:

A Very Super Market

02-27-09, 11:08 PM

"snowy Massachusetts"

I'm sorry, this just doesn't make any sense :rotfl:

August

02-28-09, 12:37 AM

"snowy Massachusetts"

I'm sorry, this just doesn't make any sense :rotfl:

Well it sounds better than "cold, gray, wet and gets several 1-2ft snowfalls a year with periods of temperatures in the low '40's Massachusetts". :D

OneToughHerring

02-28-09, 02:32 AM

August,

except that Norway doesn't even belong to the EU, let alone the EMU (monetary union). They are happy with oil money and the smell of cod. :O:

Stormin Norman

02-28-09, 02:50 AM

My business has taken me to many nice countries but no place compares to the good ol US of A :up: That's why we don't travel...hey wait a minute, Americans travel abroad more than Germans and French, who says otherwise? LOL

Jimbuna

02-28-09, 08:30 AM

I don't like being a part of a tourist group. I went to school in moscow, that was more what i had in mind.

Don't forget to bring some transfers with you later on in the year :DL

Platapus

02-28-09, 09:07 AM

It sounds cheezy but it was true at least in my personnel account.

It was only after traveling to other countries that I got a really deep appreciation for the US.

My country is far from perfect. Our history is not one of purity. Our government system is a problem, Our schools need help, Our health care can be improved, so can the care with give our military and our elderly.

With few exceptions pretty much anything that is being said bad about the US as basis for truth. Many of these bad things I say about my own country. :nope:

We are an imperfect people with an imperfect government and hence an imperfect country.

But on the whole, the United States is a pretty good place to live. I always knew that but I really understood it when I "visited" other countries on behalf of my Uncle. My Uncle never sent me to nice countries...He said it would build my character. :salute:

Fish

02-28-09, 09:31 AM

If I tell American tourist our national airport, schiphol, is 15 feet below average sealevel, they're gone.:gulp:

Platapus

02-28-09, 09:45 AM

Unless you have a periscope and Sonar why would you ever want to live/work 15 feet under sea level? :D

Fish

02-28-09, 09:52 AM

Unless you have a periscope and Sonar why would you ever want to live/work 15 feet under sea level? :D
Where I live it's 6 feets above. ;)

Platapus

02-28-09, 09:58 AM

Unless you have a periscope and Sonar why would you ever want to live/work 15 feet under sea level? :D
Where I live it's 6 feets above. ;)

Ah mountain top chateau? :D

Hitman

02-28-09, 10:22 AM

Skybird, I'd also like to see you at the subsim meeting :DL since I have the hope that when speaking you make it shorter than when writing, (otherwise we'll miss most of the events ) :haha:

no just joking, I'd really really like to see as many people as possible in the subsim meet. We have been friends for so long that it is good time to meet in person and have a beer together -and where else best than in central Europe, where beer is nearly a religion-

Back to the topic, I'd like to add some 2 cents being both a spaniard and someone who has travelled a lot through europe: It's mainly a cultural issue in my opinion. Back in the 60s and 70s, the authorities here (Franco regime) continuously publicited that Spain was the very best of all, the centre of the universe, and certainly if you travle all around Spain you see enough marveleous things to keep you from willing to go elsewhere. Then the mind set up changed, and from the 90s onwards people -mostly out of monetary issues, now they had money- decided that travelling to foreign countries was "the best of the best" and talking about having spent a weekend in New York or somewhere else -as far as possible- apparently raised your cache in any social meeting :doh: , thus people actually didn't travel with the idea of enriching their culture and experiencies, and it was funny to talk with someone and notice that after some questions.

I guess in the US there is a certain culture about travelling or not travelling for the mass majority of people; combine that with their already fantastic country (You could spend a life travelling in the US and not having been able to see all worthy things), the political distance with the rest of the world, the weak dollar in these last years, and you get a picture. At least that's what I suppose, but I thank Clive for raising the question and letting us see whet the real american's reasons are :up:

Sailor Steve

02-28-09, 12:33 PM

We Americans are great travellers. We just like to drive there.

Onkel Neal

02-28-09, 01:03 PM

I find this topic very amusing, in the newly announced Denmark meeting thread, there are as many Americans coming to Denmark as there are Europeans (so far). :haha:

American/Canadian ----- Europeans
Neal ----- Kapitan_Phillips
Sailor Steve ----- Carotio
UnderseaLcpl ----- Te Kaha
Thomen ----- mapuc
nikimcbee ----- {1.SS}Eberhardt
Chad ----- Von Hinten
Bill Nichols ----- Hitman
Hanomag ----- Lurchi

I'm counting Thomen as American because he is in Maryland and will have to travel, lol.