Obama what the hell are you doing?

[Zachstar]

Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

The Obama administration will seek to reinstate the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004 during the Bush administration, Attorney General Eric Holder (http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6905255&page=1) said today.

Don't go nuts the idea will never pass congress. But what it will do is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY wreck Dem chances for 2012.

Obama was doing so well.. Why the hell did he pick now to do this rather than spend the last of his political capital on this in his 2nd term.

Damn, Just Damn.... :nope:

[A Very Super Market]

Quite right. Really, it isn't something he should be focusing on right now. Actually, he shouldn't even be caring about it.

[Zachstar]

Well with this he obviously is proving that he does not care for congressional democrats. If he is dumb enough to think that repubs wont use this to paint democrats as "Gun Grabbing" and destroy us in 2010 then he needs to be impeached for inability to think!

Yes I am mad. This is giving the other side free ammo after their policies have led to such loss. Are we to spend another 8-12 years with repubs before we learn?

DUMB DUMB DUMB!

[Aramike]

What surprises me about this is that it surprises anyone else.

[Bewolf]

Well with this he obviously is proving that he does not care for congressional democrats. If he is dumb enough to think that repubs wont use this to paint democrats as "Gun Grabbing" and destroy us in 2010 then he needs to be impeached for inability to think!

Yes I am mad. This is giving the other side free ammo after their policies have led to such loss. Are we to spend another 8-12 years with repubs before we learn?

DUMB DUMB DUMB!


:har::haha:

ban of weapons=impeachment
sucking d*ck=impeachment

war of agressions, killing of both american soldiers and thousands of iraqi and afghan civillians, torturing, establishing government power to a degree never seen before= HURRAH!

gosh, and you guys really wonder why nobody thinks of republicans as morale, honest and straight folks but themselves? gosh :nope:

[Dowly]

Well with this he obviously is proving that he does not care for congressional democrats. If he is dumb enough to think that repubs wont use this to paint democrats as "Gun Grabbing" and destroy us in 2010 then he needs to be impeached for inability to think!

Yes I am mad. This is giving the other side free ammo after their policies have led to such loss. Are we to spend another 8-12 years with repubs before we learn?

DUMB DUMB DUMB!

:har::haha:

ban of weapons=impeachment
sucking d*ck=impeachment

war of agressions, killing of both american soldiers and thousands of iraqi and afghan civillians, torturing, establishing government power to a degree never seen before= HURRAH!

gosh, and you guys really wonder why nobody thinks of republicans as morale, honest and straight folks but themselves? gosh :nope:

:yeah:

[August]

:har::haha:

ban of weapons=impeachment
sucking d*ck=impeachment

war of agressions, killing of both american soldiers and thousands of iraqi and afghan civillians, torturing, establishing government power to a degree never seen before= HURRAH!

gosh, and you guys really wonder why nobody thinks of republicans as morale, honest and straight folks but themselves? gosh :nope:

Well gosh do you foreigners really wonder why we Americans rarely pay any heed to your constant pompous nagging? Your "sucking d*ck=impeachment" statement shows the depth of your ignorance too.

Here's a clue: You'll notice that Zachstar is anything but a Republican and he's against the ban. Think for a second on what that means. He's also absolutely correct. This will indeed hurt the Democrats chances in 2010, especially given how often President Obama denied he'd go after gun ownership. People are rightly going to see this as a broken promise and all it will do is mobilize his opposition who will happily beat him over the head with it. A stupid move at any time, but especially now when we really need the country to pull together.

Oh and FYI Clinton was not impeached for "sucking d*ck", he was impeached for lying, under oath, about it. Big, big difference.

[AVGWarhawk]

:har::haha:

ban of weapons=impeachment
sucking d*ck=impeachment

war of agressions, killing of both american soldiers and thousands of iraqi and afghan civillians, torturing, establishing government power to a degree never seen before= HURRAH!

gosh, and you guys really wonder why nobody thinks of republicans as morale, honest and straight folks but themselves? gosh :nope:

Well gosh do you foreigners really wonder why we Americans rarely pay any heed to your constant pompous nagging? Your "sucking d*ck=impeachment" statement shows the depth of your ignorance too.

Here's a clue: You'll notice that Zachstar is anything but a Republican and he's against the ban. Think for a second on what that means. He's also absolutely correct. This will indeed hurt the Democrats chances in 2010, especially given how often President Obama denied he'd go after gun ownership. People are rightly going to see this as a broken promise and all it will do is mobilize his opposition who will happily beat him over the head with it. A stupid move at any time, but especially now when we really need the country to pull together.

Oh and FYI Clinton was not impeached for "sucking d*ck", he was impeached for lying, under oath, about it. Big, big difference.


I though he was impeached because he ruined a perfectly good cigar. :hmmm:

[SteamWake]

Don't go nuts the idea will never pass congress.

Dont count on that. Congress is way beyond listening to the american public now.

[AVGWarhawk]

Don't go nuts the idea will never pass congress.

Dont count on that. Congress is way beyond listening to the american public now.


Does Congress have ears? They are not listening to anyone but themselves. Most of it sounds like the release of gas.:o

[Bewolf]

:har::haha:

ban of weapons=impeachment
sucking d*ck=impeachment

war of agressions, killing of both american soldiers and thousands of iraqi and afghan civillians, torturing, establishing government power to a degree never seen before= HURRAH!

gosh, and you guys really wonder why nobody thinks of republicans as morale, honest and straight folks but themselves? gosh :nope:
Well gosh do you foreigners really wonder why we Americans rarely pay any heed to your constant pompous nagging? Your "sucking d*ck=impeachment" statement shows the depth of your ignorance too.

Here's a clue: You'll notice that Zachstar is anything but a Republican and he's against the ban. Think for a second on what that means. He's also absolutely correct. This will indeed hurt the Democrats chances in 2010, especially given how often President Obama denied he'd go after gun ownership. People are rightly going to see this as a broken promise and all it will do is mobilize his opposition who will happily beat him over the head with it. A stupid move at any time, but especially now when we really need the country to pull together.

Oh and FYI Clinton was not impeached for "sucking d*ck", he was impeached for lying, under oath, about it. Big, big difference.


lying, hm?

I rest my case.

Btw, if you can't take international criticism, do not post in a forum composed of international people. The days of the old fashioned nation states where every nation can do as it pleases without international reaction died with the invention of the internet and globalisation.

[Skybird]

Well with this he obviously is proving that he does not care for congressional democrats. If he is dumb enough to think that repubs wont use this to paint democrats as "Gun Grabbing" and destroy us in 2010 then he needs to be impeached for inability to think!

Yes I am mad. This is giving the other side free ammo after their policies have led to such loss. Are we to spend another 8-12 years with repubs before we learn?

DUMB DUMB DUMB!

:har::haha:

ban of weapons=impeachment
sucking d*ck=impeachment

war of agressions, killing of both american soldiers and thousands of iraqi and afghan civillians, torturing, establishing government power to a degree never seen before= HURRAH!

gosh, and you guys really wonder why nobody thinks of republicans as morale, honest and straight folks but themselves? gosh :nope:

:yeah:

:yeah: For every household it's own private A-R-M-Y...! ;)

So now we wait for the three inevitable events:

a.) I will get reminded on Germany being a Nazi country.

b.) Everybody gets reminded of that it is all about freedom only.

c.) Everybody will learn that you cannot defend your household with anything less than assault rifles. Plural. And plenty of ammunition. Best is to have an ammo dumb on every floor of your house. And some grenades. Machine guns too, of course. And for the moles in your garden and the rabbits haunting your grass, always have an MP7 with you on your veranda.

These arrrrrre dangerrrrrous times, buddies, so bewarrrrre...!

I always knew that World War III would be triggered in the slumps of New Orleans and Los Angeles...

[SteamWake]

An ammo dumb.... :rotfl:

[August]

lying, hm?

I rest my case.

Does that mean that Europeans are so used to their politicians lying to them that even perjury doesn't phase you anymore?

Btw, if you can't take international criticism, do not post in a forum composed of international people. The days of the old fashioned nation states where every nation can do as it pleases without international reaction died with the invention of the internet and globalisation.

"Sound and fury signifying nothing". Proper criticism Bewolf requires an understanding of the situation, which I'm sorry but it's obvious that you don't possess that regarding this issue or our most recent Presidential impeachment, so maybe you ought to refrain from making flame bait posts about it until you do, or at least expect to get criticism in return.

[Onkel Neal]

Oh and FYI Clinton was not impeached for "sucking d*ck", he was impeached for lying, under oath, about it. Big, big difference.

Shhh! Let them enjoy their delusions :haha:

[UnderseaLcpl]

:yeah: For every household it's own private A-R-M-Y...! ;)

So now we wait for the three inevitable events:

a.) I will get reminded on Germany being a Nazi country.

b.) Everybody gets reminded of that it is all about freedom only.

c.) Everybody will learn that you cannot defend your household with anything less than assault rifles. Plural. And plenty of ammunition. Best is to have an ammo dump on every floor of your house. And some grenades. Machine guns too, of course. And for the moles in your garden and the rabbits haunting your grass, always have an MP7 with you on your veranda.

These arrrrrre dangerrrrrous times, buddies, so bewarrrrre...!

I always knew that World War III would be triggered in the slums of New Orleans and Los Angeles...


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I guess I'll take (b);)

.....right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.........Constitutionality.....government is bad.........yaddayaddayadda etc etc.......

[AVGWarhawk]

I always knew that World War III would be triggered in the slumps of New Orleans and Los Angeles...

I think they call it the War on Drugs now. However, you can find the fully autos in Mexico now and their war on drugs. :D

[Schroeder]

lying, hm?

I rest my case.
Does that mean that Europeans are so used to their politicians lying to them that even perjury doesn't phase you anymore?

I think he was referring to the arguments for a certain war by someone who was not impeached...:shucks:

[August]

I think he was referring to the arguments for a certain war by someone who was not impeached...:shucks:
Maybe, but then he's guilty of confusing being wrong with telling a deliberate lie, made in court, on the witness stand, under oath.

[Bewolf]

lying, hm?

I rest my case.
Does that mean that Europeans are so used to their politicians lying to them that even perjury doesn't phase you anymore?

Btw, if you can't take international criticism, do not post in a forum composed of international people. The days of the old fashioned nation states where every nation can do as it pleases without international reaction died with the invention of the internet and globalisation.
"Sound and fury signifying nothing". Proper criticism Bewolf requires an understanding of the situation, which I'm sorry but it's obvious that you don't possess that regarding this issue or our most recent Presidential impeachment, so maybe you ought to refrain from making flame bait posts about it until you do, or at least expect to get criticism in return.

Now, August, you sound like a polititan. These are semantics. It does not require a university degree or studying every detail to get a gripe of the warped values displayed here. I do concede that Zach was mad and in his anger spoke about impeachment. But what it takes to hear this demand, or not, is telling what priorities some folks have in their daily lives, where quite obviously owing of a gun is more important then lying presidents sending ppl to their deaths. If Zach actually did demand impeachment of Bush, I stand corrected, but for some reason I doubt that.

That has nothing to do with flamebaiting, no matter how you recieve it, but with the ppl posting here. For the last 8 years certain folks threw away the modesty card and were the most vocal folks around, and now you once again complain about getting the same treatment? If you can't take it, do not punch, it's simple as that. I on my side never whined about me or my country beeing critizised, so do not play me this card, kay? I am very much aware of my provocations here, but discussing stuff in a civil manner unluckily hits deaf ears most of the time.

[August]

Now, August, you sound like a polititan. These are semantics. It does not require a university degree or studying every detail to get a gripe of the warped values displayed here. I do concede that Zach was mad and in his anger spoke about impeachment. But what it takes to hear this demand, or not, is telling what priorities some folks have in their daily lives, where quite obviously owing of a gun is more important then lying presidents sending ppl to their deaths. If Zach actually did demand impeachment of Bush, I stand corrected, but for some reason I doubt that.

Zachstar didn't say anything about impeachment, at least in this thread, you did.

You incorrectly attempted to compare a decision based on flawed (but long standing) intelligence, with a deliberate attempt to commit perjury in a court of law. I can't see why you have such a difficult time understanding such a significant difference.

That has nothing to do with flamebaiting, no matter how you recieve it, but with the ppl posting here. For the last 8 years certain folks threw away the modesty card and were the most vocal folks around, and now you once again complain about getting the same treatment? If you can't take it, do not punch, it's simple as that. I on my side never whined about me or my country beeing critizised, so do not play me this card, kay? I am very much aware of my provocations here, but discussing stuff in a civil manner unluckily hits deaf ears most of the time.

So you admit it then, so why are you complaining when someone returns your fire?

[SteamWake]

Here everybody :rock:

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh312/UlteriorModem/Popcorn.jpg

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Assault Rifles dont belong in the hands of regular US citizens, in my opinion. If you want to shoot an assault rifle, rent one from a range and use it there.

Who the hell do you expect to break into your house? Rambo?

[August]

Assault Rifles dont belong in the hands of regular US citizens, in my opinion. If you want to shoot an assault rifle, rent one from a range and use it there.

Who the hell do you expect to break into your house? Rambo?

Given the mountains of red tape and other bureaucratic obstacles a citizen must get through to legally possess an assault weapon they are anything but "regular".

BTW whose ranges? AFAIK government ranges do not rent firearms...

[Dowly]

Assault Rifles dont belong in the hands of regular US citizens, in my opinion. If you want to shoot an assault rifle, rent one from a range and use it there.

Who the hell do you expect to break into your house? Rambo?

I agree.

[Thomen]

Assault Rifles dont belong in the hands of regular US citizens, in my opinion. If you want to shoot an assault rifle, rent one from a range and use it there.

Who the hell do you expect to break into your house? Rambo?
Given the mountains of red tape and other bureaucratic obstacles a citizen must get through to legally possess an assault weapon they are anything but "regular".

BTW whose ranges? AFAIK government ranges do not rent firearms...

http://www.machinegunshoot.com/
:yeah:

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Assault Rifles dont belong in the hands of regular US citizens, in my opinion. If you want to shoot an assault rifle, rent one from a range and use it there.

Who the hell do you expect to break into your house? Rambo?
Given the mountains of red tape and other bureaucratic obstacles a citizen must get through to legally possess an assault weapon they are anything but "regular".

BTW whose ranges? AFAIK government ranges do not rent firearms...

That still doesnt mean there's much of a reason to own one.

[Skybird]

NATO'S has implemented a "new" policy from the late 80s saying that personnel that is not combat troops at or for the front must not carry usual assault rifles like G36ers, however in asymmetrical wars even logistics specialists and abulances could become target of enemy assaults inside "safe havens", and thus such people nevertheless should carry small but powerful weapons for self-defense, so-called Personal Defence Weapons, or PDWs. The very small MP7 is such a weapon, for example, or the P90. they can fire cartridges that are designed to defeat body armour.

If the military expects it to be sufficient to have such a "mini-assault-gun" (actually smaller than an MP5) for fighting off a hostile wartime attack in rear areas near the front in a war, then it cannot be understood why people claim to need such weapons of war or even more "senior" weapons like regular assault guns in order to fight off intruders in their house or on their farm that want to rob the appartmenet or are after money. That is idiotic. Are American cities and farms places of ordinary warfare, with hundreds left dead every day and citizens mowed down in their appartements with machine gun fire??

It is all about a fetish, an excessive fascination for weapons, and implicitly a sign for a violence-loving culture (of which the medias are filled from A to Z anyway).

Eventually I could understand the farmer in a lonely place to have his hunting rifle, or the household in a dangherous neighbourhood having a pistol or a revolver.

But - assault guns...? That is absurd, hilarious.

If you would live in a place where you would need to keep your neighbourhood in check with such tools of war, you better run. Else you may not only lose your life or property, but your family as well. Just a question of time.

Listening to this fanatic demand to hold a private firepower surpassing that of an ordinary plice patrol, one could assume that the US is already a worse place to live in than the world of Fallout - but aren't we foreigners expected to be jealous of America for being in this superior state it is in? Something wouldn't match here, then. Nobody is jealous of a place where you would need to fight daily wars to just make it through another war-torn day in order to go to work, and come home again. :haha:

So either the US is a place that we can legitimately and peacefully be jealous of, then you would not need assault guns to live there - or you would need assault guns to survive the week indeed: then it hardly is a place where to live people are jealous for. :har:

[August]

Assault Rifles dont belong in the hands of regular US citizens, in my opinion. If you want to shoot an assault rifle, rent one from a range and use it there.

Who the hell do you expect to break into your house? Rambo?
Given the mountains of red tape and other bureaucratic obstacles a citizen must get through to legally possess an assault weapon they are anything but "regular".

BTW whose ranges? AFAIK government ranges do not rent firearms...
http://www.machinegunshoot.com/
:yeah:

But that's not a government range. If I were banned from possessing AW's so would they. Besides we're only talking about a ban on the import of foreign made semi automatic rifles.

Like I always say:

"Buy American!" :up:

[A Very Super Market]

This thread isn't about that, so you wasted your time typing that up. Its about Obama killing his chances by going against his promise.

[Bewolf]

Now, August, you sound like a polititan. These are semantics. It does not require a university degree or studying every detail to get a gripe of the warped values displayed here. I do concede that Zach was mad and in his anger spoke about impeachment. But what it takes to hear this demand, or not, is telling what priorities some folks have in their daily lives, where quite obviously owing of a gun is more important then lying presidents sending ppl to their deaths. If Zach actually did demand impeachment of Bush, I stand corrected, but for some reason I doubt that.
Zachstar didn't say anything about impeachment, at least in this thread, you did.

You incorrectly attempted to compare a decision based on flawed (but long standing) intelligence, with a deliberate attempt to commit perjury in a court of law. I can't see why you have such a difficult time understanding such a significant difference.

That has nothing to do with flamebaiting, no matter how you recieve it, but with the ppl posting here. For the last 8 years certain folks threw away the modesty card and were the most vocal folks around, and now you once again complain about getting the same treatment? If you can't take it, do not punch, it's simple as that. I on my side never whined about me or my country beeing critizised, so do not play me this card, kay? I am very much aware of my provocations here, but discussing stuff in a civil manner unluckily hits deaf ears most of the time.
So you admit it then, so why are you complaining when someone returns your fire?
You are actually correct. After rereading his initial post his point is different from what I saw in it inititally. I misread.

So, Zach, if you read, this, I honestly apologize for making a false claim based on your name and posting.

That said, and Zach beeing the victim of the whole discussion that came up here several times already, I generally stay by what I said. This obsession for weapons and violence sold as morales and constitutional rights is hardly believeable. The more folks talk and defend these kinda weapons here, especially with emotions boiling up to impeachment rethorics, tell a story of not mature, objective judgement, but immature, almost childish emotions of ppl beeing afraid a grown up taking away their dangerous playtools.
And frankly, this is the way I percieve the weapons fanatics as well, going by the way they approach this topic.

And just to underline this, I did not complain, no matter how you percieve it, August. You can defend the hypocrisis all you want, as long as you do not even see where folks like me and others are coming from, instead repeating the same "you have no idea, you do not understand, do not critizse" you can't expect to be convincing at all.

[August]

That still doesnt mean there's much of a reason to own one.

If we start banning things on that basis then expect your computer to be next.

[Digital_Trucker]

That still doesnt mean there's much of a reason to own one.
If we start banning things on that basis then expect your computer to be next.

Exactly:up: Not much reason to own a 300 HP car either, so I guess we should make them illegal, too.

Considering the amount of total crap on television, there's not much reason to own one of them either, so.......

[Etienne]

This thread isn't about that, so you wasted your time typing that up. Its about Obama killing his chances by going against his promise.

Should we have the thread about the extremely short memory of the voting public now, or do you want to wait a few years? :D

[August]

The more folks talk and defend these kinda weapons here, especially with emotions boiling up to impeachment rethorics, tell a story of not mature, objective judgement, but immature, almost childish emotions of ppl beeing afraid a grown up taking away their dangerous playtools.
And frankly, this is the way I percieve the weapons fanatics as well, going by the way they approach this topic.

Again YOU are the one who brought up impeachment so the rhetoric here is yours and yours alone. But thank you for telling us that we are childish and immature hypocrites Bewolf. Your opinion is so noted. :shifty:

[Aramike]

That still doesnt mean there's much of a reason to own one.The beauty of a free society is that you don't have to justify your reasons for owning things.

But hey, why not ban 60" or larger TVs? There's not really much of a reason to need anything over 55"...

That's a pretty slippery slope we'd be going down, don't you think?

In any case, can anyone tell me the harm caused by a law-abiding citizen owning an assault rifle? Anyone?

Didn't think so.

You Europeans can keep your nanny-states, thank you.

[Bewolf]

The more folks talk and defend these kinda weapons here, especially with emotions boiling up to impeachment rethorics, tell a story of not mature, objective judgement, but immature, almost childish emotions of ppl beeing afraid a grown up taking away their dangerous playtools.
And frankly, this is the way I percieve the weapons fanatics as well, going by the way they approach this topic.
Again YOU are the one who brought up impeachment so the rhetoric here is yours and yours alone. But thank you for telling us that we are childish and immature hypocrites Bewolf. Your opinion is so noted. :shifty:

Nope. Zach brought it up. Not in the way I understood it, but the entry line came from him.

Sarcasm does not do you well in supporting your point here. Aramike in the other thread didn't convince me either, but at least he is taken seriously in what he said.

[Bewolf]

That still doesnt mean there's much of a reason to own one.The beauty of a free society is that you don't have to justify your reasons for owning things.

But hey, why not ban 60" or larger TVs? There's not really much of a reason to need anything over 55"...

That's a pretty slippery slope we'd be going down, don't you think?

In any case, can anyone tell me the harm caused by a law-abiding citizen owning an assault rifle? Anyone?

Didn't think so.

You Europeans can keep your nanny-states, thank you.



http://www.momlogic.com/2008/08/protect_your_kids_from_guns.php

[August]

Sarcasm does not do you well in supporting your point here. Aramike in the other thread didn't convince me either, but at least he is taken seriously in what he said.

The beauty part is we don't have to convince you Bewolf. This is our country and our laws we are talking about, not yours.

[Zachstar]

Assault Rifles dont belong in the hands of regular US citizens, in my opinion. If you want to shoot an assault rifle, rent one from a range and use it there.

Who the hell do you expect to break into your house? Rambo?

That has nothing to do with this. The American public does not want ANY new "bans restrictions etc" on firearms. And a common republican tactic was to use the actions of past DEEP left democrats to portray us as gun grabbing. It was just about dead thanks to modern dems starting to move more towards gun education rather than gun banning but Obama looks like he wants to cater to the deep left again. A decision that will cost us atleast a few seats in 2010 and likely the presidency in 2012.

You dont touch guns. They are the third rail.

[Zachstar]

Some news. In one of those extremely rare days where Pelosi actually does something right. She basically slammed the door on Obama and the idea of a new assault weapons ban.

[AVGWarhawk]

Some news. In one of those extremely rare days where Pelosi actually does something right. She basically slammed the door on Obama and the idea of a new assault weapons ban.

She is gonna win this also:yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Oh, too much to catch up with.:damn:

Btw, if you can't take international criticism, do not post in a forum composed of international people. The days of the old fashioned nation states where every nation can do as it pleases without international reaction died with the invention of the internet and globalisation.
On this I agree.

As far as the impeachment goes, I disagree that it had anything to do with getting head or with lying to congress. It was all about a right-wing witch-hunt to get Clinton at any cost. Just like the Ollie North trial and Iran-Contra was all about a left-wing witch-hunt to get Reagan at any cost. The left hates Bush, and with much less cause than they claim. The right hates Obama, and he hasn't really done anything yet. It's all politics, and nothing will be resolved or advanced until everyone stops playing these games.

Assault Rifles dont belong in the hands of regular US citizens, in my opinion.
Anything belongs in the hands of a citizen that said citizen desires. Subjects, on the other hand, don't get a choice. It doesn't matter who I expect to break into my house - it's not anyone else's call to say what I do or why I do it, as long as I don't infringe anyone else's right to do the same.

Usually I think Aramike overstates his case, but this time he's spot on.

b.) Everybody gets reminded of that it is all about freedom only.
What is it about then? Either you have freedom or you don't. there is no in-between.

[Bewolf]

Sarcasm does not do you well in supporting your point here. Aramike in the other thread didn't convince me either, but at least he is taken seriously in what he said.
The beauty part is we don't have to convince you Bewolf. This is our country and our laws we are talking about, not yours.
Absolutely correct, and nobody forces you to comment on my entrys.

[Skybird]

b.) Everybody gets reminded of that it is all about freedom only.
What is it about then? Either you have freedom or you don't. there is no in-between.

You do not have unlimited freedom in a world where you are not alone, that simple. else i could justify to demand owning a theormonuclear handgrenade. Just in case. One never knows.

And more, if it is about owning military weapons in a private household, if that is what it's about for somebody, then I would say that freedom is a waste of opportunity on that person, and he better should follow orders, before he hurts himself like a child hurts itself when being free to chose to eat only candy, gets ill and eventually dies from malnutrition.

I often said before: freedom in the main is not a right. It is a skill that needs to be learned, and that is inevitably linked to sense of responsibility. The freedom from something does not compare with the freedom to something. You may achieve the first by taking "freedom", ba fighting or resosting, but that does not meahn that by that alojne you have achieved the latter as well. But if you do not get the latter, whoch is a skill, then it doesn't mean anything that you succeeded with the first - for you do not know what to resp0onisbly do with yoiur freedom, and thus you waste it.

that way, not few revolutions and well-meant rebellions have led to conditions that did not look too different from the status against which they once rebelled.

[Foxtrot]

Don't ban these for the love of Baby Jeebus.

http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/12/KittyRifle.jpg

http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20080117/ShootingKitty1_540x405.jpg

http://lemurking.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/hellokittyparts.jpg

http://cyberpunk2020.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/hellokittygun1.jpg

[Sea Demon]

Well gosh do you foreigners really wonder why we Americans rarely pay any heed to your constant pompous nagging?

The beauty part is we don't have to convince you Bewolf. This is our country and our laws we are talking about, not yours.


Holy Jesus August!! That sounds like a broad stroked personal attack against our buddy Bewolf! Totally uncalled for. Not very nice despite what he said. That's alluding all Europeans do is sit and pompously nag. Foreigners???? *Gasp* Geez, I'm going to vote Democrat now! That'll show ya'. You're turning me into a Euro, UN loving, world citizen with your xenophobic and personal attack. :damn:

Hey Bewolf...I guess you're not entitled to an opinion on American political matters??:06:

[Skybird]

WTH...?

Did the owner do a private paintshop, or is that a toy for young kids? If the latter, shoot the producers, please.

[Bewolf]

Well gosh do you foreigners really wonder why we Americans rarely pay any heed to your constant pompous nagging?

The beauty part is we don't have to convince you Bewolf. This is our country and our laws we are talking about, not yours.


Holy Jesus August!! That sounds like a broad stroked personal attack against our buddy Bewolf! Totally uncalled for. Not very nice despite what he said. That's alluding all Europeans do is sit and pompously nag. Foreigners???? *Gasp* Geez, I'm going to vote Democrat now! That'll show ya'. You're turning me into a Euro, UN loving, world citizen with your xenophobic and personal attack. :damn:

Hey Bewolf...I guess you're not entitled to an opinion on American political matters??:06:

It's fine, Sea Demon, I know to appreciate your overly sarcastic tone. Let's just pretend you were serious for a second.

Then August actually does have a point. He does not need to care one bit. I am just stating an opinion, no matter how furious that one may be, like anybody else. I hold no grudge against August just for his. He has all the right in the world to ignore mine.

If that, however, is a smart move, that's written somewhere else.

[Sea Demon]

It's fine, Sea Demon, I know to appreciate your overly sarcastic tone. Let's just pretend you were serious for a second.

Then August actually does have a point. He does not need to care one bit. I am just stating an opinion, no matter how furious that one may be, like anybody else. I hold no grudge against August just for his. He has all the right in the world to ignore mine.

If that, however, is a smart move, that is written somewhere else.
Hell, I agree with you. And I don't agree that anybody should make you think you are not free to express your opinions on political matters of any nation. Including the USA. You're right, people have all the right in the world to speak freely and ignore messages they don't like. It's really simple. Although we may disagree on some matters, this is one thing both you and I get.

[Bewolf]

Thanks, Sea Demon, I agree completly.

[Fish]

:roll: :hmm2: Tea...uh...ladys? :DL

[Rockstar]

Military weapons? I don't own military weps in my home. Oh sure they may be light weight, have an extraordinary ammo capacity, and look futuristic with that laser sight. However thats not military at all, I like to call that convenience as those old bolt actions of mine can get tiresome and boring after awhile. :shucks:

[August]

Holy Jesus August!! That sounds like a broad stroked personal attack against our buddy Bewolf! Totally uncalled for. Not very nice despite what he said. That's alluding all Europeans do is sit and pompously nag. Foreigners???? *Gasp* Geez, I'm going to vote Democrat now! That'll show ya'. You're turning me into a Euro, UN loving, world citizen with your xenophobic and personal attack. :damn:

Hey Bewolf...I guess you're not entitled to an opinion on American political matters??:06:

Aww poor SD. I dared to disagree with your attempt to blame Obama for that TSA proposal so now you're out for revenge. Isn't that special?

[Sea Demon]

Holy Jesus August!! That sounds like a broad stroked personal attack against our buddy Bewolf! Totally uncalled for. Not very nice despite what he said. That's alluding all Europeans do is sit and pompously nag. Foreigners???? *Gasp* Geez, I'm going to vote Democrat now! That'll show ya'. You're turning me into a Euro, UN loving, world citizen with your xenophobic and personal attack. :damn:

Hey Bewolf...I guess you're not entitled to an opinion on American political matters??:06:

Aww poor SD. I dared to disagree with your attempt to blame Obama for that TSA proposal so now you're out for revenge. Isn't that special?

Cool your jets August. I'm only messin' with ya'. At any rate, you even got that wrong. Actually, I was blaming those that vote for intrusive government.....hence why I used Obamabots. Which I've already admitted the 'bots' thing might be a bit overused. I nowhere blamed Obama other than saying his type of government combined with a partisan left Congress is more likely to act with more alacrity with it. Who could disagree with that. Especially with the talk they're giving on other matters that limit freedom in some way? I actually linked his voters to intrusive governments. Although it's not a stretch to believe he's not capable of intruding on the rights of private pilots. AOPA seems to think it's possible.

But at any rate, who the heck do you think you are in telling anybody how they should express themselves. You're nobody special August. Bewolf can express an opinion on "our" politics, even if we may disagree with the message.

And while I was messing around with you above, it's certainly not a "revenge" thing. But you're not anybody who can tell somebody like Bewolf that he can't express an opinion about US poilitics because it's "ours". I totally disagree with that. You're blaming me in another thread for what you're guilty of in this one. Only on a grander scale. I linked Obama voters to big intrusive government. You linked Europeans to being "pompous naggers". But the difference is I never told any Obama voters they shouldn't express an opinion. You innappropriately told Bewolf to stuff it because he was a foreigner who's opinion didn't matter. Geez. How thoughtless of you. ;)

Please, quit your grandstanding August. No hard feelings to you, but I found your approach yesterday and today in this topic hypocritical and truly pathetic. I actually agree with alot of your posts, and find your thoughts refreshing. But sometimes you think you are some arbitrator of free speech, and goodwill. And you're neither. You need to get over yourself in that regard.

[CaptainHaplo]

Good to see its being halted - though I have no love for liberal politicians - the fact is if Pelosi squashed this then good for her. Regardless of her political reasonings - moving this direction is bad for the country.

What amazes me is that our non-US posters here do exactly what the EXTREME leftists democrats want - they look at the TITLE of proposed legislation and go "yea - why can't those crazy, bloodthirsty, gun-toting americans agree with this - its common sense!"

However, I also know that they may not understand exactly how our government works - so let me help out here.

Politicians name prospective legislation things that sound good. If the "Assault Weapons Ban" only included actual Assault Weapons, more Americans would support it without a doubt. However, the devil is always in the details. Since 1994, the language of such bills has stated that any rifle - automatic OR semi-automatic is an "assault weapon" if it has 2 or more of a number of parts - either stock or able to be added. For example - a scope, hand grips (every handgun has these!) flash suppressor, magazine (of any size), collapsable stock, laser pointer, etc. Any rifle that has these devices - or can have them added - becomes a "non-sporting class" weapon - ie - an "assault rifle". Meaning that sweet deer rifle you have used for the last decade - is now a menace to society. Oh - shotguns and other such firearms - BANNED. That old black powder muzzle loader that is a relic from the US Revolutionary War - its an ex military rifle - automatically banned. Same with your bolt action that was used in WW1.

The purpose is clear - ultimately control every firearm available to the public - which is a violation of the Constitution.

As for this whole "it only affects imports" - don't fool yourself. Look at the efforts that have been underway here in the US to put every domestic firearm maker (that doesn't supply JUST the government in some way) out of business. Regulations on them are insane, not to mention there have been activists that sue a gun maker because a firearm they made was the "cause of death" of a person. Guess the gun maker was the criminal - not the person who actually USED the firearm to kill. Thankfully - those cases have not gotten alot of traction to date, but we cannot say that trend will continue.

So for all our non-US friends, don't let the name fool you. If you give it only a surface look, anyone would support it. But if you only give what government does a surface look, your going to get your rights taken faster than you suspect.

[Platapus]

What is weird is that both parties are pushing for this ban

Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2007 (failed to pass)
All the sponsors were Democratic 67 of them so I won't post them here

Assault Weapons Ban Reauthorization Act of 2008 (failed to pass)
All the sponsors were Republicans

Rep Castle, Michael N. - R DE
Rep Ferguson, Mike - R NJ
Rep Ros-Lehtinen, Ileana - R FL
Rep Shays, Christopher - R CT

With both parties eager for this ban to continue, it looks good for the 2009 bill to pass. :nope:

[August]

But the difference is I never told any Obama voters they shouldn't express an opinion. You innappropriately told Bewolf to stuff it because he was a foreigner who's opinion didn't matter. Geez. How thoughtless of you. ;)

I never told Bewolf that he shouldn't express his opinion. I certainly never told him to stuff anything. I just told him that his opinion, on this subject, after much discussion, was not much valued by me, primarily based on 20 years of useless arguing with his fellow Europeans over the same topic.

Now can you understand the difference, or should i call you an Obamabot? hmmm? ;)

[CaptainHaplo]

Skybird, thats not a real weapon in a pink theme - its altered photos. Look at the design on the stock while being fired - then again when its broken apart - its two different designs. The alterer musta thought the twisty kitty looked better.

I would have hoped to see better from a poster here - the thing is so obviously a fake.

[August]

Rep Castle, Michael N. - R DE
Rep Ferguson, Mike - R NJ
Rep Ros-Lehtinen, Ileana - R FL
Rep Shays, Christopher - R CT

Look at where they are from. Except for Fla they're all blue states and all of them are RINOs.

[donut]

This bill is a direct assault on the Second Amendment and our right to own firearms. It is another Democrat attempt to cram every one of their pet projects down the American people's throats while they think we are not paying attention. This bill has not attracted very much attention because everyone has been focused on the so called "stimulus" bill. Please contact your Congressman and Senators and ask them to oppose this bill and any other legislation that attempts to disarm the citizens of the United States.







=0 D

Very Important for you to be aware of anew bill HR 45 introduced into the House.





This is theBlair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record ofSaleAct of 2009.










Even gun shop owners didn't know about this because it is flying under the radar.









To find out about this - you can GoogleHR 45 Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sales Act of 2009. You will get all the information.









Basically this would make it illegal to own a firearm, or any rifle with a clip or ANY pistol unless:









.It is registered









.You are fingerprinted









.You supply a current Driver's License









.You supply your Social Security #









.You will submit to a physical & mental evaluation at any time of their choosing




0D






.Each update - change or ownership through private or public sale must be reported and costs $25 - Failure to do so you automatically lose the right to own a firearm and are subject up to a year in jail.









.There is a child provision clause on page 16 section 305 stating a child-access provision. Gun must be locked and inaccessible to any child under 18.









Theywould have the right to come and inspect that you are storing your gun safely away from accessibility to children and fine is punishable for up to 5 yrs. in prison.




If you think this is a joke - go to the website and take your pick of many options to read this. It is long and lengthy. But, more and more people are becoming aware of this. Pass the word along. Any hunters in your family - pass this along.









Peter Boyles is on this and having guests. Listen to him on KHOW 630 a.m. in the morning. He suggests the best way to fight this is to tell all your friends about it and "spring into action". Also he suggests we all join a pro-gun group like the Colorado Rifle Association, hunting associations, gun clubs and especially the NRA.









This is just a "termite" approach to complete confiscation of guns and disarming of our society to the point we have no defense - chip away a little here and there until the goal is accomplished before anyone realizes it.









This is one to act on whether you own a gun or not.









http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.45 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.45):









http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h45/show









http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-45

[Platapus]

http://www.glamguns.com/hk47.html

This the site that has the Hello Kitty AK-47s and be sure to check out

http://www.glamguns.com/mylittleponycarbine.html

For the My little Pony M4



Before any of you sick bastards get too excited and start reaching for your credit cards, Glamguns.com is a parody site :D

[Sea Demon]

But the difference is I never told any Obama voters they shouldn't express an opinion. You innappropriately told Bewolf to stuff it because he was a foreigner who's opinion didn't matter. Geez. How thoughtless of you. ;)

I never told Bewolf that he shouldn't express his opinion. I certainly never told him to stuff anything. I just told him that his opinion, on this subject, after much discussion, was not much valued by me, primarily based on 20 years of useless arguing with his fellow Europeans over the same topic.

Now can you understand the difference, or should i call you an Obamabot? hmmm? ;)

Wow. Quite defensive there August. Even after I halfway extended an olive branch to you. Basically you got caught doing the very thing you "scolded" me for in your self promoting, self aggrandizing fashion. You lumped all of Europe in as pompous naggers, which is a direct insult to many here, arrogantly derided another member personally here as "you foreigners", and you also alluded to Bewolf that his opinion shouldn't be expressed. Isn't that what you meant? I mean it's OK for you to imply false meanings into other people's posts, and misrepresent their positions so I guess turn about is fair play....no?

You didn't even understand what I was referring to in the post you decided to attempt to play "forum hero" in. It was clear. And the link to those I referred to was absolutely clear with no ambiguity. Instead in your rush to judgement, you totally misunderstood my point in that topic which I still think is quite reasonable and legitimate as a concern. I still don't believe you get it. That's OK. Stubborness does that to people. The funny thing is, you got caught here being incredibly rude and condescending to another member, very demeaning in tone to him, and all after you seem to love to tell others how they should present their ideas. Please, vote Democrat. Your hypocritical outlook here and seeming inability to see it shows you would absolutely fit right in.

[CaptainHaplo]

Sea Demon - no - Aramike needs to vote for me. So does any other legally eligible voter in the country - AFTER reviewing my stand on issues (and not a letter beside my name) if they agree with me.

And look - Zachstar appears to be a Democrat - but he also sees the folly here. Maybe he is looking at the political cost only, I don't know - but it doesnt matter. Seeing a bad move as a bad move is good - regardless of if someone agrees on the WHY.

I can say its a bad idea to cross the street without looking in all directions. He can say its a bad idea to cross without doing the same. We both can be correct. I might think I need to look up to make sure a plane isnt trying to make an emergency landing. He could simply be worried about cars.

Just because someone has a D beside their name doesnt mean they want us to be socialist. Just because they have an R beside their name doesn't mean they want big business to own your a$$. Each person should be viewed as an individual. Lets not over generalize here.

[Sea Demon]

And look - Zachstar appears to be a Democrat - but he also sees the folly here. Maybe he is looking at the political cost only, I don't know - but it doesnt matter. Seeing a bad move as a bad move is good - regardless of if someone agrees on the WHY.

I can say its a bad idea to cross the street without looking in all directions. He can say its a bad idea to cross without doing the same. We both can be correct. I might think I need to look up to make sure a plane isnt trying to make an emergency landing. He could simply be worried about cars.

Just because someone has a D beside their name doesnt mean they want us to be socialist. Just because they have an R beside their name doesn't mean they want big business to own your a$$. Each person should be viewed as an individual. Lets not over generalize here.

Yeah, you make sense. We're actually talking about something that happened in another thread. And it's becoming largely insignificant to me. I know that not all Dems are bad and not all Repubs are good. But from a general standpoint, I seem to get more of what I seek from Republicans. And the Democrat legislature out here in California has really been abusive tax-wise. On this topic, I don't believe Zach has much to worry about here. Republicans as of the last few years have been unaware to any political opportunites that are handed to them. Will they use this against the Obama administration? I'm putting my money on it that they won't. Therefore, I don't think this will hurt Obama too much. Maybe a little bit. Depends on if it's remembered and how hard they push it. The stimulus and any ill effects from that will have the impact.

[August]

Please, vote Democrat. Your hypocritical outlook here and seeming inability to see it shows you would absolutely fit right in.

Yeah whatever. :roll:

I still think you're a moonbat...

[Zachstar]

Great way to build support for the repubs SD thanks for making 2010 easier for us dems! :yeah:

[Sea Demon]

Please, vote Democrat. Your hypocritical outlook here and seeming inability to see it shows you would absolutely fit right in.

Yeah whatever. :roll:

I still think you're a moonbat...

Yeah? Ok. Well I don't think that about you August. I actually do appreciate your point of view on many issues. It's OK that you think I'm a "moonbat" as you say. I can live with it. I know my own perspective is correct and it serves me well professionally and personally. I do actually think you're a smart guy. Unfortunately, this time around you got on your high horse with somebody who called you out on it. You simply thought you were going to be some kind of hero. Too bad you screwed it up by being arrogant, condescending, and plain rude to another forum member not even a day later. And obviously you can't take it. That statement above you quote from me is just me messin' with you a little, as I think you deserve it for the inconsistency, and hypocrisy you've displayed by your own behavior for the past two days over my and others posts.

[August]

Yeah? Ok. Well I don't think that about you August. I actually do appreciate your point of view on many issues. It's OK that you think I'm a "moonbat" as you say. I can live with it. I know my own perspective is correct and it serves me well professionally and personally. I do actually think you're a smart guy. Unfortunately, this time around you got on your high horse with somebody who called you out on it. You simply thought you were going to be some kind of hero. Too bad you screwed it up by being arrogant, condescending, and plain rude to another forum member not even a day later. And obviously you can't take it. That statement above you quote from me is just me messin' with you a little, as I think you deserve it for the inconsistency, and hypocrisy you've displayed by your own behavior for the past two days over my and others posts.


Your tears are just delicious!

[Sea Demon]

Great way to build support for the repubs SD thanks for making 2010 easier for us dems! :yeah:

Right Zachstar. Anybody showing strong legitimate concerns about the over-reaching aspects of this current government will draw voters over to the Democrats. Ridiculing the ridiculousness over this intrusive type of governing coming from Washington DC these days will also increase the Democrat majorities. And while I'm done with the "drones" stuff, I'm positive it wouldn't turn anybody's true convictions.

I suppose your recipe for Republican victory is for those Republicans repulsed by the current big intrusive government situation should just shut up...right? Perhaps even support all the intrusiveness, tax increases, military cuts, etc. just to show how nice we are. Yeah, that'll win elections. :shifty:

[Sea Demon]

Yeah? Ok. Well I don't think that about you August. I actually do appreciate your point of view on many issues. It's OK that you think I'm a "moonbat" as you say. I can live with it. I know my own perspective is correct and it serves me well professionally and personally. I do actually think you're a smart guy. Unfortunately, this time around you got on your high horse with somebody who called you out on it. You simply thought you were going to be some kind of hero. Too bad you screwed it up by being arrogant, condescending, and plain rude to another forum member not even a day later. And obviously you can't take it. That statement above you quote from me is just me messin' with you a little, as I think you deserve it for the inconsistency, and hypocrisy you've displayed by your own behavior for the past two days over my and others posts.


Your tears are just delicious!

Really? Well since you continue to be a hostile contender and strongly defensive, I think I smell some agony emanating from you. :yeah: I for one find this comical and easy to put behind me.

[Zachstar]

No my recipe for GOP victory is a outright support for clean cheap American energy (Fusion)

Otherwise things just don't look good for them. But hey you and others eating their own only makes things easier for us so we can wipe this fake ass and useless bipartisanship off the map.

Obama is actually being far too slow on the change for me. A greater majority will make it go faster so I thank you for making getting that greater majority easier!

[Sea Demon]

Obama is actually being far too slow on the change for me. A greater majority will make it go faster so I thank you for making getting that greater majority easier!

Ain't gonna happen...even with a pledged August vote. :up: j/k

[Zachstar]

Yes that is what they said about 2008. They said no way would an "Inexperienced Candidate" win.

The fact is the GOP is looking weaker every day and youve shown many signs of eating your own and listening to the deep right elements that cost yall dearly in 2006 and 2008.

Barring any more stupid political capital costing mistakes by dems we have 2010 in the bag. When America wanted action we delivered we are showing strength and the Iraq war is drawing to a close.


Want to win? Go for the energy or go progressive because otherwise yall are doomed for 2010.

[August]

Really? Well since you continue to be a hostile contender and strongly defensive, I think I smell some agony emanating from you. :yeah: I for one find this comical and easy to put behind me.

Right. Then why do you keep replying?

[Aramike]

What the hell???

Typically, I find August to be quite a thoughtful, independent thinker. 90% of the time him and I agree on things, but I've never had any disrespectful encounters. Maybe he can, at times, be a bit abrasive but I KNOW that I'm worse than he is.

And Sea Demon, well heck, you're like GT's counterpart to Enigma. Like our very own Mark Levin - you KNOW you can be just as if not more abrasive than the rest of us.

In any case, there's no reason to be bickering because August suggested not out-moonbatting the moonbats. While I happen to agree with you on a lot of issues, I do think you tend to look at everything through Red colored lenses.

I know a lot of you have heard me call myself a centrist. Most of my beliefs, however, are conservative. The reason I label myself as a centrist is because that's the default position I start at whenever trying to decide where I stand on an issue.

I think that's what August meant with the original moonbat comment - look at things from outside your natural perspective in order to prevent your predispositions from clouding your judgement.

But seriously, there's no reason to take that outside of the first thread, right?

[Aramike]

The fact is the GOP is looking weaker every day and youve shown many signs of eating your own and listening to the deep right elements that cost yall dearly in 2006 and 2008.I beg to differ. The "deep right" isn't what cost the GOP those elections. It was the moderate conservatives (RINOs) and such that did. Hell, John McCain was the GOP's presidential candidate - hardly on the far right.

If the GOP is to return to prominence (which it will; you're delusional if you don't understand that politics are cyclical) it must return to its roots.

The question is only, who will be the next Reagan?

[Kapitan_Phillips]

..

I didnt see a single point that didnt seem like a good idea there. Not one.

[Skybird]

Skybird, thats not a real weapon in a pink theme - its altered photos. Look at the design on the stock while being fired - then again when its broken apart - its two different designs. The alterer musta thought the twisty kitty looked better.

I would have hoped to see better from a poster here - the thing is so obviously a fake.

Ach was...??? :D

[SteamWake]

No my recipe for GOP victory is a outright support for clean cheap American energy (Fusion)!

Good plan only one minor detail.

The technology doesent exist yet.

Besides they would find some way to bemoan this as well. I saw a news story just last night about some frakkin mouse that is now 'endangered' because of development of 'green energy' technologys in the region (solar panels, wind power, etc.). They want the projects shut down and shut down now because there is a 'possibility' the the cute little mouse may become endangered.

Its like a compulsion, a sort of psychosis, "Save the mouse, destroy the country !" :doh:

[Enigma]

And Sea Demon, well heck, you're like GT's counterpart to Enigma.

:har:

You crack me up. But, glad to see you can't stop thinking about me......

[Aramike]

And Sea Demon, well heck, you're like GT's counterpart to Enigma.

:har:

You crack me up. But, glad to see you can't stop thinking about me......Well, I wouldn't say that ... its more like certain things remind me of you. :yep:

[Enigma]

I'm touched? :dead:

[CaptainHaplo]

Enigma and Aramike - ya'll two get a room.... sheesh! :har:

I swear two teenagers infatuated with each other act like this. Both of you be grown up about it and let it be. Add to the discussion - instead of trading laughing jabs back and forth.

The recipe for "republican" success isn't important, and frankly I am dissapointed that its a R vs D discussion.

I think its about the success of the COUNTRY as a whole. That means a return to INDIVIDUAL rights, States rights and a Federal government that works FOR the people of the country - not the other way around. This is why you see states asserting their 10th amendment rights - because BOTH parties have led the federal government into being a huge disaster.

[Morts]

Please, vote Democrat. Your hypocritical outlook here and seeming inability to see it shows you would absolutely fit right in.

Yeah whatever. :roll:

I still think you're a moonbat...

Yeah? Ok. Well I don't think that about you August. I actually do appreciate your point of view on many issues. It's OK that you think I'm a "moonbat" as you say. I can live with it. I know my own perspective is correct and it serves me well professionally and personally. I do actually think you're a smart guy. Unfortunately, this time around you got on your high horse with somebody who called you out on it. You simply thought you were going to be some kind of hero. Too bad you screwed it up by being arrogant, condescending, and plain rude to another forum member not even a day later. And obviously you can't take it. That statement above you quote from me is just me messin' with you a little, as I think you deserve it for the inconsistency, and hypocrisy you've displayed by your own behavior for the past two days over my and others posts.
your perspective is correct ? ummm...how about no

[Sailor Steve]

You do not have unlimited freedom in a world where you are not alone, that simple.
No, you do not. Alone, I have an inherent right to do anything I please. In a group that right is limited by its conflict with anyone else's right to do the same.

else i could justify to demand owning a theormonuclear handgrenade. Just in case. One never knows.
Absolutely true. Here we have an unposted de facto speed limit of 25 miles per hour in residential areas. This is to protect our children when we can't always do it ourselves. Just as we don't want nations we don't trust to have that kind of destructive capability, we don't want individuals we don't trust to have it either. When it comes to personal weapons, however, there is much disagreement. I do have a right to defend myself and my family. The argument is over the means. I've never murdered anyone, with a gun or a knife or my bare hands. Should I be restricted? You seem to think so. I disagree. You are trying to limit the ability of a bad person to commit a crime by restricting my freedom, the reason being that I might do something unpleasant. That I have never done anything like that before, in spite of my already owning a gun, is irrelevant - you can only be protected by limiting my ability to protect myself.

Do you have that right? I don't think so.

And more, if it is about owning military weapons in a private household, if that is what it's about for somebody, then I would say that freedom is a waste of opportunity on that person, and he better should follow orders, before he hurts himself like a child hurts itself when being free to chose to eat only candy, gets ill and eventually dies from malnutrition.
Now you want to dictate what is good or bad for me according to your background and training, which I question (not your personal background, but whether Psychology is really as effective a medical device as psychologists would like to believe). I put this in the same category as seat-belt and helmet laws: "It's for your own good!" Why not come to my house and make me have little plastic apliques on my shower floor, so I don't slip and break my neck? Pass a law, then enforce it. I see that as an intrusion of the worst kind. The only real freedom is freedom of choice, and whether my choices hurt me is my business, not yours. Even as an adult I eat too much candy and drink too much soda. As an adult, that's my choice. Or do you want to pass a law protecting me from myself there as well?

I often said before: freedom in the main is not a right. It is a skill that needs to be learned, and that is inevitably linked to sense of responsibility.

The freedom from something does not compare with the freedom to something. You may achieve the first by taking "freedom", ba fighting or resosting, but that does not meahn that by that alojne you have achieved the latter as well. But if you do not get the latter, whoch is a skill, then it doesn't mean anything that you succeeded with the first - for you do not know what to resp0onisbly do with yoiur freedom, and thus you waste it.
Again, spoken like someone who knows better than I do what is best for me and claims the right to make me do it. What I do with my freedom is my business and no one else's, until what I do limits their freedom as well. Waste it? I'd rather waste it in my own pursuit of happiness than lose it to someone who would deny it in the name of moral superiority and try to take it away from me under the guise of 'helping'.

[Platapus]

... The only real freedom is freedom of choice, and whether my choices hurt me is my business, not yours.

Is it? What makes you think that your actions do not affect others?

Suppose you exercise your freedom and get hurt

The EMS service that picks you up is being paid for by my taxes (if a muni service) If a private service the expenses are transfered to all the customer base (me)

The ER that helps you gets funding from taxes that I pay for or
Your health insurance pays for your "freedom" and therefore raises premiums for others (like me) in your plan to pay for it

If you get hurt real bad in exercising your freedoms and have to go on disability the SSA monies and medicare services you get are paid for by my taxes.

If you lose work you company (depending on the type of industry) may have to pass on the extra costs incurred by your "freedom" to the customer (me).

People have a misconception that they are an isolated part of our society.

Unless you are going to accept the possibility of you getting hurt and just laying there to die, your actions do have a cost to others.

And this only addresses some of the financial effects, there are other ways in which your actions affect other people in society.

So in this instance, yes your freedom of choice can affect others.

All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...

As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....

No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. - John Donne (some old dead guy)

[Sailor Steve]

Is it? What makes you think that your actions do not affect others?
All of what you said in the above and what followed is true. However, that's still my responsibility, not yours. You can argue that I have to excercise my freedom responsibly. This is also true, but that doesn't give you license to govern my actions based on how it affects you emotionally. It's also true that I owe my children the duty of not taking risks that will ruin their lives based on injury to myself. I must willingly limit myself so they don't have to suffer. That still doesn't give you the authority to limit me for my own sake, nor for how it may affect your sensibilities.

My freedom is my own, as is the responsibility that goes with it. You may admonish me all you like, and you may limit me based on how it may hurt you; this is what laws are for. What I'm saying is that you may not limit me based on your perceptions of how I affect myself. This is dictatorship, even when it's done in the name of good.

[Platapus]

I would agree